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Lazboy Limited Edition From Costco


Markman

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  • 3 weeks later...
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Okay...got the replacement heater as promised in 5 Business days and had it installed in 30 minutes. All a-okay to date. Ordered another two filters via tech support...arrived in 5 Business days. Had a party and needed to drain the tub the next day....no problem...everything works accordingly to plan. Also, in regards to the chemicals...best to find local spa dealer who you can buy your chemical from and ask the necessary questions...this I have done and they have been more than helpful....perform water analysis and recommendation on chemical balance...by the way using bromine and lovely it. Will post in two months again to give you all an idea if I still like this hot tub...later

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  • 3 weeks later...
Okay...got the replacement heater as promised in 5 Business days and had it installed in 30 minutes. All a-okay to date. Ordered another two filters via tech support...arrived in 5 Business days. Had a party and needed to drain the tub the next day....no problem...everything works accordingly to plan. Also, in regards to the chemicals...best to find local spa dealer who you can buy your chemical from and ask the necessary questions...this I have done and they have been more than helpful....perform water analysis and recommendation on chemical balance...by the way using bromine and lovely it. Will post in two months again to give you all an idea if I still like this hot tub...later

I've had mine for a little over week. Installed it a week ago last Saturday. Filled it up with water and hooked up wiring and everything worked perfectly, other than not being able to completely turn off the waterfall feature. I anxiously waited for it to heat up and invited some people over for Sunday afternoon. In the morning I got up and none of the pumps would work. I called tech and I spent pretty much all afternoon on the phone with them, except for the time it took to drive into the city to fetch a voltmeter. They sent me to buy one to check the connections claiming my electrician had wired it wrong. I couldn't figure out how to use the meter and was pretty nervous about it since I had been electrocuted pretty bad in 1998 and was getting upset that I had to diagnose and fix it myself considering it supposedly had two years of warranty for labor! I finally called my electrician, who was kind of ticked that they suggested he screwed up. He came out on the Sunday and told me everything checked out fine and it was the tub, then handed me a bill for $75.00.

Spa services agreed to send me a spa pack as it was faulty, but wanted a credit card and to hold funds on the cost of the spa pack until I returned the old one. I was pissed. I needed a credit card to get warranty service? I don't think so. They also told me it would be 5-7 business days to get the part, and if I wanted a tech to install it, it would be 12 at least. I argued and they agreed to expedite the shipping for free. It arrived on Wednesday morning. I installed it that evening only to find out that the pumps worked, but the power supply for the stereo was now not working. They had me check a few things and finally told me they had to send another for the stereo. They said it shipped Thursday, but regular shipping. I called yesterday to have the tracking number emailed, then they said that it was shipping today because it had been back ordered. Last week they couldn't expedite because it was already shipped. Today it wasn't even shipped yet, but could not be expedited because it was already boxed and set for shipping and couldn't be stopped??

I still don't have a tracking number. I called the Costco store and said I wanted to bring it back because I wasn't willing to go through the hassle of their crappy warranty and would pay a couple of thousand more for service and a tub that works. Besides, the audio system does not come with a sub. I complained to the techs the first day (when it worked) that you could not hear it over the jets, and the tech was surprised that it did not have a sub. He said that all of the other tubs they sell use the same audio system (including the Pilates) and the all use a sub because it's useless without one. He's right. The Costco manager phoned the support line on Saturday and must have caused some waves. She called me back and told me she told them that if I bring it back she's shipping it back to the them. They were supposed to phone me to work something out but didn't. When I phoned yesterday and was mad about the BS re the power supply and ship date, the agreed to send me a sub and two filters to provide compensation for the hassle and the electrician bill. Costco told me to bring the bill in and they would have it reimbursed. Now that's service. I am not all that happy with the tub, the jet layout and controls (seems to be built for short fat people) but I will keep it for now and see how things go. The warehouse manager told me I can keep it as long as a year and return it if not happy with the tub or the service. Thank goodness for Costco, even if the tub and the MFG suck.

They also won't help with water chemistry questions unless you buy their chemicals. Naturally!

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The warehouse manager told me I can keep it as long as a year and return it if not happy with the tub or the service. Thank goodness for Costco, even if the tub and the MFG suck.

They also won't help with water chemistry questions unless you buy their chemicals. Naturally!

I thought they had a life time return policy??? I guess I have never heard of anyone using it other than a few weeks after purchase so we may never know if the policy works or not.

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You're going through all this when it’s new (and obviously never tested at the factory). What do you think it’s going to be like when the spa is 2 yrs, 4 yrs or 6 yrs old? A well made spa will last you 15+ years and have a usable warranty. I'm guessing this one will either be a Craigslist spa by its 6th birthday with a listing like “its yours if you haul it away”.

These spas are for DIYers who have no problem being their own service tech and are willing to keep this spa limping along. It’s comical how they've had you acting as their service tech so far and now that you mention bringing it back they're being a bit more responsive but they're just trying to settle you in so you'll live with it but this is a sign of things to come.

I've had mine for a little over week. Installed it a week ago last Saturday. Filled it up with water and hooked up wiring and everything worked perfectly, other than not being able to completely turn off the waterfall feature. I anxiously waited for it to heat up and invited some people over for Sunday afternoon. In the morning I got up and none of the pumps would work. I called tech and I spent pretty much all afternoon on the phone with them, except for the time it took to drive into the city to fetch a voltmeter. They sent me to buy one to check the connections claiming my electrician had wired it wrong. I couldn't figure out how to use the meter and was pretty nervous about it since I had been electrocuted pretty bad in 1998 and was getting upset that I had to diagnose and fix it myself considering it supposedly had two years of warranty for labor! I finally called my electrician, who was kind of ticked that they suggested he screwed up. He came out on the Sunday and told me everything checked out fine and it was the tub, then handed me a bill for $75.00.

Spa services agreed to send me a spa pack as it was faulty, but wanted a credit card and to hold funds on the cost of the spa pack until I returned the old one. I was pissed. I needed a credit card to get warranty service? I don't think so. They also told me it would be 5-7 business days to get the part, and if I wanted a tech to install it, it would be 12 at least. I argued and they agreed to expedite the shipping for free. It arrived on Wednesday morning. I installed it that evening only to find out that the pumps worked, but the power supply for the stereo was now not working. They had me check a few things and finally told me they had to send another for the stereo. They said it shipped Thursday, but regular shipping. I called yesterday to have the tracking number emailed, then they said that it was shipping today because it had been back ordered. Last week they couldn't expedite because it was already shipped. Today it wasn't even shipped yet, but could not be expedited because it was already boxed and set for shipping and couldn't be stopped??

I still don't have a tracking number. I called the Costco store and said I wanted to bring it back because I wasn't willing to go through the hassle of their crappy warranty and would pay a couple of thousand more for service and a tub that works. Besides, the audio system does not come with a sub. I complained to the techs the first day (when it worked) that you could not hear it over the jets, and the tech was surprised that it did not have a sub. He said that all of the other tubs they sell use the same audio system (including the Pilates) and the all use a sub because it's useless without one. He's right. The Costco manager phoned the support line on Saturday and must have caused some waves. She called me back and told me she told them that if I bring it back she's shipping it back to the them. They were supposed to phone me to work something out but didn't. When I phoned yesterday and was mad about the BS re the power supply and ship date, the agreed to send me a sub and two filters to provide compensation for the hassle and the electrician bill. Costco told me to bring the bill in and they would have it reimbursed. Now that's service. I am not all that happy with the tub, the jet layout and controls (seems to be built for short fat people) but I will keep it for now and see how things go. The warehouse manager told me I can keep it as long as a year and return it if not happy with the tub or the service. Thank goodness for Costco, even if the tub and the MFG suck.

They also won't help with water chemistry questions unless you buy their chemicals. Naturally!

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You're going through all this when it’s new (and obviously never tested at the factory). What do you think it’s going to be like when the spa is 2 yrs, 4 yrs or 6 yrs old? A well made spa will last you 15+ years and have a usable warranty. I'm guessing this one will either be a Craigslist spa by its 6th birthday with a listing like “its yours if you haul it away”.

These spas are for DIYers who have no problem being their own service tech and are willing to keep this spa limping along. It’s comical how they've had you acting as their service tech so far and now that you mention bringing it back they're being a bit more responsive but they're just trying to settle you in so you'll live with it but this is a sign of things to come.

You got that right. Which is why I planned to buy another one. The dealer I was shopping at said he would deliver and set up the new one and put the POS lazyboy on the trailer for me to return. I guess they do the same thing if they upgarde one for you so he says no worries. They told me that although it's rare on a well built tub, stuff happens....but, he said that last weekend he had someone who's pump went on their Jacuzzi spa and they were in the middle of a hot tub party on a Saturday night. They called the store and and got the after hours on call tech. He asked if they wanted it fixed that night or if Monday was okay. They said, "tonight" so he was out at their home at midnight and fixed it. That's service! Of course, it maybe be BS to get me to buy the tub.

What really ticks me off is before I bought this tub neither costco or the toll free number from the lazyboy site (same for service) could tell me what the sound system consisted of (subwoofer??). I found out when I got it home that it didn't have one and sounded like crap. Then I found the pamphlet that explained the warranty in detail. If I had sen that before I doubt I would have bothered to bring it home. It will be easy to get rid of thanks to my dealer. Looks like I'm buying a red tag Jacuzzi, but if I like, I have a year to decide. Might wait until winter to get an out of season good deal or next spring to get an old stock deal or demo clearout. Either way this one will be going back eventually.

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One other thing about this tub. The circulating pump seems to be the only way to filter the water, yet it runs out of two jets on one side and then over to the filter area. It does not seem to pull the bugs or bits lof leaves that seem to be getting into the water from wind and use of the tub. If I turn on the jets, they move the water around and the debris, but the suction from the filters is not enough to pull them into the filters so they just keep migrating around. The water at the bottom is of visibly a different color when the circ pump is working and jets are off. Not sure what to do about that. I'm also having problems with my water staying greenish looking when I have my pumps on. It will look pretty clear when still, but light green when running. I just put two pakcs of spa lite in it to try and get it bluish again. I'm really having trouble getting the water right.

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Crazy Canadian,

If you do plan on keeping it. (And since it has a lifetime return policy on it) and you are willing to be our guinie pig, keep it and let us know how it runs in the cold canadian winters. I would be very interested to learning how this tub perfoms for you.

I bet if you went into a hotsprings dealer and told them you had a costco tub and wanted to buy a HS tub from them, they'd probably help you haul the costco tub back for free. ;)

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Crazy Canadian,

If you do plan on keeping it. (And since it has a lifetime return policy on it) and you are willing to be our guinie pig, keep it and let us know how it runs in the cold canadian winters. I would be very interested to learning how this tub perfoms for you.

I bet if you went into a hotsprings dealer and told them you had a costco tub and wanted to buy a HS tub from them, they'd probably help you haul the costco tub back for free. ;)

I can haul it back on my trailer. I just need help putting it back on the trailer. The warehouse guys can unload it. Two of us placed it using the atv ramp, jackstands with 2x6's and a lot of grunting and cursing. We used some physics to carefully get it into position with no damage or impacts. Getting it back on will be much more difficult, but yes, my local dealer said that when they placed the new one, they would load my old one first.

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Might wait until winter to get an out of season good deal or next spring to get an old stock deal or demo clearout. Either way this one will be going back eventually.

Sure you can get some good deals during model changeover but its usaully about $500 or so and meanwhile you'll be using the spa you have which is very much an energy pig (take off teh sides and look at how well its insualted). It'll cost you $50 more per month to run it until spring. Do the math, cut the cord and get a well made spa (Arctic, Artisian, Caldera, D1, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Sundance ...).

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Might wait until winter to get an out of season good deal or next spring to get an old stock deal or demo clearout. Either way this one will be going back eventually.

Sure you can get some good deals during model changeover but its usaully about $500 or so and meanwhile you'll be using the spa you have which is very much an energy pig (take off teh sides and look at how well its insualted). It'll cost you $50 more per month to run it until spring. Do the math, cut the cord and get a well made spa (Arctic, Artisian, Caldera, D1, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Sundance ...).

The tub is pretty well insulated from what I can see. Thick foam on the shell (but not a second layer on the lines like a jacuzzi) and then they skirting is insulated with rigid foam and foil to the inside. I suppose someone could put sealed bat insulation in there as well.

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Might wait until winter to get an out of season good deal or next spring to get an old stock deal or demo clearout. Either way this one will be going back eventually.

Sure you can get some good deals during model changeover but its usaully about $500 or so and meanwhile you'll be using the spa you have which is very much an energy pig (take off teh sides and look at how well its insualted). It'll cost you $50 more per month to run it until spring. Do the math, cut the cord and get a well made spa (Arctic, Artisian, Caldera, D1, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Sundance ...).

The tub is pretty well insulated from what I can see. Thick foam on the shell (but not a second layer on the lines like a jacuzzi) and then they skirting is insulated with rigid foam and foil to the inside. I suppose someone could put sealed bat insulation in there as well.

The dealer has a Jacuzzi J-480 under the demo program with only a 2 year warranty with Stereo option of $8900 CDN regular $16500. Is this worth it? I paid $6000 for my current tub and while the service sucks the parts are 5 years and 10 years on shell. I know Costco will protect me on the warranty and won't pay that much for new but for $2-3000 more it seems good. I like the jets way better, but I'd prefer not to have the lounger.

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Just bought this hottub from costco. After opening it up they had packaged the wrong filter....phoned tech support and they had one sent...arrived 5 days as promised. It worked very well for 5 days and then started to show RH HR error message. Phone tech support and they are sending me a heater. This tub is excellent quality and really not complicated. The seating is perfect...no compliments and the two motors each running half the tub works out great. The stero system sounds amazing..

Wrong filter and a problem in the first 5 days and you consider it of excellent quality???? I guess some of us have higher standards.

Hilarous!

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I have a HydroSpa Legend, it cost $5000. That's just not all that cheap, but it's a few thousand less less than I would have paid for an equivalent Sundance or whatever.

Some of your points are valid (others are not) but this statement above is the most common mistake made by big box purchasers. There wasn't a HydroSpa made that is comparable in quality to any spa on a Sundance showroom floor (unless of course the Sundance dealer happened to take in another Hydrospa in trade and actually resells it rather than scrap it).

You didn't save $, you just decided to spend less and if you're a DIYer then Costco can work out for you. Hydro going bankrupt didn't change much, your warranty wouldn't have been worth much even if they were around.

I bought the Lazboy spa from Costco in April, biggest problem was arranging shipping, I do my own electrical so there wasn't much else needed, except fill & use

A local pool & spa guy in the area that his main business is pools told me the $5K investment was sound would beat the value of most other spa's. I's been running fine from day 1 and usually have 7-8 people in it once a week, so the size really paid off. It's been a god send for my lower back pain relief & my wifes knee's range of motion has also improvded from a surgery 2 years ago.

I use non Lazboy chemicals, can't find them locally in Toronto, but the test strips always check out ok

It has too many features for our needs, but has been a pleasure to own.

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I bought the Lazboy spa from Costco in April, biggest problem was arranging shipping, I do my own electrical so there wasn't much else needed, except fill & use

A local pool & spa guy in the area that his main business is pools told me the $5K investment was sound would beat the value of most other spa's. I's been running fine from day 1 and usually have 7-8 people in it once a week, so the size really paid off. It's been a god send for my lower back pain relief & my wifes knee's range of motion has also improvded from a surgery 2 years ago.

I use non Lazboy chemicals, can't find them locally in Toronto, but the test strips always check out ok

It has too many features for our needs, but has been a pleasure to own.

It's always good to hear about 4 months of happy ownership. But it would be nice if we had 4 years of experience somewhere to make a prediction on the quality of these units!!

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  • 1 month later...

Thought I'd give you guys an update. If you look further up in this thread, you'll see that on August 20th, I posted some of my problems with the tub and Tatum's Spa Services. Well, the following evening, I began to feel very sick and ended up in the hospital Friday morning on the 21st. They said I had a bladder infection that they figured was caused by the hot tub (I had explained that I had been in the tub previous to this happening and the bacteria they found was a common bacteria caught in hot tubs). They sent me home with antibiotics. That night I couldn't urinate at all and the following morning, my abdomen was also swollen. I called a health information line and spoke to nurse who told me to go back to the hospital. So Saturday morning I went back to emergency and they drained over a liter of urine from my bladder using a catheter and sent me home again. Around midnight I had a heart attack and was taken by ambulance to one hospital and then transferred to another. I ended up in the cardiac intensive care (CCU) for three days and then was moved into the regular cardiac ward for another 3 days before being released. I was diagnosed with myocarditus and pericarditus. What apparently happened is that the bacteria got into my blood and attacked the muscle and lining of my heart. I know have permanent heart damage, it will take about a year to recover, I have about a 20% chance of recurrence which the only cure might be a transplant and have to take some meds for the rest of my life. I am 40 years old and last year was climbing mountains in Alaska. The angiogram showed my arteries are totally clear, my cholesterol and blood pressure have always been fantastic, my family has no history of heart problems and uncles live to the 90's but now I have heart problems! I had a hot tub that was down waiting for parts to repair it that did not allow the water to circulate and when I got it back up and running, I had a company refusing to help me get the water chemistry right because I didn't buy the chemicals from them. The result, getting infected with a bacteria that has changed my life forever.

While I agree that the hospital is somewhat to blame for not putting me on IV antibiotics and sending me home for two days in a row, I also think Tatum is partly responsible. They sell a tub which I have been told is inadequately filtered, was told by the lead tech I had to use a shop vac to suck out debris from the tub, was forced to make repairs myself and was refused help when asking for guidance on my water quality. As someone new to hot tubs, I expected more from this company and in particular, at least expected them to stand by their advertised warranty and support policy, which they didn't.

Costco's Insurance Agency sent me a copy of a letter they sent to Tatum about the incident where they asked a rep from Tatum to contact me within 24 hours of receipt of the letter. Naturally, no one has, and the letter was postmarked September 24th. When I was having trouble with getting service and complained to the Costco store manager, she called them and gave them an earful, then called me to sya that someone from Spa Services would be calling me right away, but naturally, no one did. When I finally called in myself, the rep did mention that the Manager from Costco had indeed called in....

I'm shopping for a lawyer now. If anyone can recommend one, please provide it to me. Costco has agreed to send a crane truck to pick the unit up so I don't have to worry about. I'm not supposed to lift anything over 5 pounds and I think it's heavier than that.

Don't buy one. That's all I can say. If you buy a tub, make sure that any water that is hitting your skin has been run through the filter system.

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I am so sorry this has happened to you. I hope you begin to feel better soon.

As a note, no matter what brand of tub you purchase you must know water chemistry and how to take care of it. If you buy a tub from someone other than a local dealer, at least by your chemicals from them so they are willing to help teach you your water chemistry, most decent dealers will do this.

Again, I hope all the best to you.

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I am so sorry this has happened to you. I hope you begin to feel better soon.

As a note, no matter what brand of tub you purchase you must know water chemistry and how to take care of it. If you buy a tub from someone other than a local dealer, at least by your chemicals from them so they are willing to help teach you your water chemistry, most decent dealers will do this.

Again, I hope all the best to you.

OMG!! This goes to show that we MUST keep on top of our water chemistry and make sure to buy a tub with a no pass filtration system.

Crazy Canadian, please keep us informed of how you are doing and how things go as well with your fight. All the best wishes for you. I will keep you in my thoughts.

Anne

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OMG!! This goes to show that we MUST keep on top of our water chemistry and make sure to buy a tub with a no pass filtration system.

Crazy Canadian, please keep us informed of how you are doing and how things go as well with your fight. All the best wishes for you. I will keep you in my thoughts.

Anne

Even though it has absolutly nothing to do with no bypass filtration. And any properly filtering tub could potentialy have problems including the brand with no bypass filtration with the proper water care and maitenence not followed.

Just goes to show you how important water care can be.

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OMG!! This goes to show that we MUST keep on top of our water chemistry and make sure to buy a tub with a no pass filtration system.

Crazy Canadian, please keep us informed of how you are doing and how things go as well with your fight. All the best wishes for you. I will keep you in my thoughts.

Anne

Even though it has absolutly nothing to do with no bypass filtration. And any properly filtering tub could potentialy have problems including the brand with no bypass filtration with the proper water care and maitenence not followed.

Just goes to show you how important water care can be.

Well, then I guess you'll have to "school" me on how to avoid having bacteria, parasites, and germs in general from living in my tub. I know keeping PH balanced is very important and sanitizing is also important, but really what do I need to do?

Anne

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Well, then I guess you'll have to "school" me on how to avoid having bacteria, parasites, and germs in general from living in my tub. I know keeping PH balanced is very important and sanitizing is also important, but really what do I need to do?

Anne

A chlorine level of 3-5 PPM will kill bacteria. If your tub is not circulating then until it is and you have achieved a 3-5 PPM level of chlorine in the lines I would not use the tub. If your tub was down for an extended period I personaly would have drained, refilled, sanitized to 5-10 PPM then once dissipated used the tub. You could of probably sanitized and cleared up your water after your extended down but it may have taken a few days to a week to do it.

But one thing remains certain, a PPM of 3-5 of chlorine will kill all the bacteria. But I would not have used the tub untill I achieved that PPM for a couple days.

Of course there are alot of factors involved, If your level of bacteria is so high that 3-5 PPM does not kill it before dissapation then a second or third attempt at 3-5 PPM would of been required or just shock to 10PPM, maybe even twice. But if you look at your water and assume no matter how clean it looks that is has bacteria. Then 3-5 PPM of chlorine will be required to sanitize it.

Give us some more information Anne? How long did the tub remain stagnant? How old was the water before it stopped circulating? What is your sanitizer of choice and what levels did you achieve daily and for a shock before your tub went down?

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Well, then I guess you'll have to "school" me on how to avoid having bacteria, parasites, and germs in general from living in my tub. I know keeping PH balanced is very important and sanitizing is also important, but really what do I need to do?

Anne

A chlorine level of 3-5 PPM will kill bacteria. If your tub is not circulating then until it is and you have achieved a 3-5 PPM level of chlorine in the lines I would not use the tub. If your tub was down for an extended period I personaly would have drained, refilled, sanitized to 5-10 PPM then once dissipated used the tub. You could of probably sanitized and cleared up your water after your extended down but it may have taken a few days to a week to do it.

But one thing remains certain, a PPM of 3-5 of chlorine will kill all the bacteria. But I would not have used the tub untill I achieved that PPM for a couple days.

Of course there are alot of factors involved, If your level of bacteria is so high that 3-5 PPM does not kill it before dissapation then a second or third attempt at 3-5 PPM would of been required or just shock to 10PPM, maybe even twice. But if you look at your water and assume no matter how clean it looks that is has bacteria. Then 3-5 PPM of chlorine will be required to sanitize it.

Give us some more information Anne? How long did the tub remain stagnant? How old was the water before it stopped circulating? What is your sanitizer of choice and what levels did you achieve daily and for a shock before your tub went down?

We use our tub daily, sometimes twice a day, but our dealer tells us to only use chlorine once a week and then shock after each use to work with the Everfresh system on our HS Limelight Flair. It has the ozone and silver cartridge. They tell me this is enough to deal with bacteria and wastes.

What do you think?

Anne

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We use our tub daily, sometimes twice a day, but our dealer tells us to only use chlorine once a week and then shock after each use to work with the Everfresh system on our HS Limelight Flair. It has the ozone and silver cartridge. They tell me this is enough to deal with bacteria and wastes.

What do you think?

Anne

I think that is a poor method that many try (often to placate spa users who think "I want to sue less chemicals") but at some point it'll prove itself to be ineffective. Ozonators are great and so are silver cartridges but your current method is relying too much on their effectiveness and chlorine is too effective to eliminate from a per use regimen IMO.

The reality is that the clearly more effective method is to add 1 teaspoon of dichlor per person AFTER each use. It sanitizes BUT dissipates quickly so you don't have a strong chlorine odor. At the end of the week I'd shock with MPS though you can do so with chlorine as well.

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We use our tub daily, sometimes twice a day, but our dealer tells us to only use chlorine once a week and then shock after each use to work with the Everfresh system on our HS Limelight Flair. It has the ozone and silver cartridge. They tell me this is enough to deal with bacteria and wastes.

What do you think?

Anne

I think this is terrible advice from a dealer! Ozone and mineral catridges are great for maintaining water during none use, in other words to keep it clean and kill whatever the chlorine missed as long as the bacteria levels are very very low. But once you use the tub we introduce all kinds of nasty stuff that I won't even go into, here's where the chlorine is required to kill the bacteria because ozone or minerals can't do it. Yes they kill bacteria but not at a rate that will clean your water sufficient enough for use the next day or even 2 days later or 3.

Like ST said a teaspoon per person of dichlor after use WILL kill the nastys introduced during your soak. But a level of 3-5 PPM is what is required and a teaspoon may or may not do that depending on alot of factors. For me it was a half a teaspoon but I soaked after I showered. And the only way for you to find out what your water requires is to do some trial and error. Add then test after your soak and the quantity will change depending on the quantity of people and how clean or dirty they are when they soak.

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This is a post from the water chemistry side of the forum that chem geek did which may exsplain how using just MPS daily and dichlor weekly works. I have never had a customer fall ill using the low chlorine Nature 2 recipe, heavy use has caused cloudy water, but never any illness and I think Richard found why...Here is the post......

I believe I finally found a scientific source that would explain the effective use of MPS in hot tubs for disinfection supporting the Nature2 claims and results regarding their "low chlorine recipe". The following is the information and source:

At 77ºF Potassium Monopersulfate provided only 16.8% inactivation of E.coli bacteria in 2 minutes, but at 104ºF it provided >99.9999% inactivation.

SOURCE: Gerba, Charles P. and Jaime N. Naranjo. “Comparison of the Anti-bacterial Properties of Hot Tub Additives and Disinfectants.” Seminar at NSPI Meeting in Las Vegas, November 1999. (I got this from a book of articles by John Wojtowicz in The Journal of the Swimming Pool and Spa Industry (JSPSI) called "The Chemistry and Treatment of Swimming Pool and Spa Water". The specific article is "Survey of Swimming Pool/Spa Sanitizers and Sanitation Systems" by John A. Wojtowicz and appeared in Volume 4, Number 1 of the JSPSI.)

It does not appear that metal ions (e.g. copper or silver) are required for this increase in disinfection capability vs. temperature. By itself, MPS might not quite make it to the 4-log kill in 30 seconds or less required in the EPA test, though it is certainly close. However, standard MPS product contains 3% (by weight) Potassium Peroxydisulfate (aka potassium persulfate) and the use of silver metal ions help catalyze the breakdown of persulfate. This can help reduce the amount of irritation in spas from the MPS product since a primary irritant may be the persulfate.

S2O82- + Ag+ --> SO42- + SO4-• + Ag2+

Persulfate Ion + Silver Ion --> Sulfate Ion + Sulfate Ion Radical + Divalent Silver Ion

SO4-• + Ag+ --> SO42- + Ag2+

Sulfate Ion Radical + Silver Ion --> Sulfate Ion + Divalent Silver Ion

So the net effect in the presence of silver is removal of persulfate and production of divalent silver that can oxidize organic matter faster than persulfate itself. The sulfate ion radicals are also effective oxidants and I would presume that both are probably fast disinfectants. So the use of silver ions not only reduces irritation, but produces another strong oxidizing and presumably disinfecting agent. [EDIT] Dupont, the maker of the MPS used in most non-chlorine shock products, does not show data supporting the higher disinfection rates even at spa temperatures so there is an inconsistency here. Perhaps the presence of metal ions is required. [END-EDIT]

So that at least explains the Nature2 submission results and makes their “low chlorine recipe” something reasonable. Most people do not follow its recipe literally, however, as it requires a residual of MPS to be measured as present BEFORE you soak while most people seem to be adding the MPS only after the soak. I know that MPS breaks down over time so will see if I can look up how long it is expected to last. I would say that if someone were to use MPS before a soak, that they should wait some period of time so that the potentially irritating persulfate will break down (but I don't know how long that would take -- presumably, not very long). The monopersulfate, which is what Nature2 requires to be measured, should persist much longer. [EDIT] The decomposition rate of MPS at spa temperatures is about 12% per hour so is 90% decomposed after 18 hours (95% decomposed after 24 hours) which is why Nature2 requires testing and addition of MPS BEFORE one soaks in addition to adding more afterwards (since MPS gets consumed during and shortly after the soak by the urea/ammonia in sweat). [END-EDIT]

Since there is such a strong temperature dependence on the effectiveness of MPS as a disinfectant, I'm surprised that there isn't some sort of minimum temperature level required in the Nature2 "low chlorine recipe". Probably anything close to hot spa temperatures near 100F are OK.

It's too bad TinyBubbles no longer frequents this forum. If someone could let him know about the above, that would probably make him feel more comfortable with the "low chlorine recipe" approach he is now using.

Richard

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