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Bromine, Chlorine, And Carcinogens


ncspa

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Hmm - so (in response to 1): how would one tell if the ozone is being applied in moderation? My ozonator is inline. It is not driven by a 25/7 pump as in other system, but instead comes on only during filter cycles (2 hours, 2 X day).

In response to 2: Why would you recommend it even with high bromate formation? And, more importantly, how can I go about encouraging lots of oral *** in the tub :lol:

If you only run ozone when the filter cycles, and the ozone generator is not as big as a refrigerator, you have no worries.

Bromate is a very powerful oxidizer. It destroys ammonia in solution. It is also a steriliant. So it is not a *bad* thing to have in solution.

As to oral enjoyment, when you figure this out..

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... combination of potassium (a vital ion, that happens to be radioactive)

Not all isotopes of potassium are radioactive. Both the K39 and K41 isotopes are not. K40 is but it makes up only .0118% of the naturally occuring potassium. It is also not the only common substace with radioactive isotopes. A large number of common elements have naturally occuring radioactive isotopes. This is not anything unusual at all.

A very level-headed response. Additionally, it is absolutely critical to life as has developed here on Earth.

Excess potassium is excreted through the kidneys, as is bromate. ~18% of those K40 decays are via beta capture / positron emission, and the list of low energy particles elicited from one decay is about 30. And those particles are low energy, guaranteeing that they terminate in soft tissue. Beta emission decay is very high energy... you can pick this up outside the body.

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[ Bromate compounds in high concentrations are used to dye hair.

This is a new one on me and I was a hair colorist for many years. Bromates have been used as a permenant wave oxidizer (neutralizer) but I know of no use for them in the coloring of hair. (and I am even more familiar with the chemistry involved in that than I am in the chemistry of pool or spa water!!!!!!!)

You are correct. I spend no time in a beauty shop, and read what this stuff was in too long ago to recall correctly. Thanks for the correction.

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I was warned by many people through emails that you won't listen to facts. The term google king was used and I understand their frustration. Anyone can claim to be anything online these days and google any term they want. That explains someone who doesn't own a spa or work with them hanging out on a spa forum telling people how to care for them. It's a shame that you are misleading and hurting so many people. I've been helping them privately since they are afraid to speak out against you in the forum. Remember that I was brought here by a customer who followed your bleach advice. You don't listen to facts and you aren't interested in the truth. You do not have one shred of evidence to prove that dichlor is a problem in spas, period. And even if it were, bleach would not be the solution. If you need to believe the sky is red despite the truth that it's blue then keep on believing. I have over 20 years experience in the business and you don't even own a spa. It's absurd. If you don't have an agenda why don't you lead people towards bromine or other alternatives to dichlor? I helped my customer that was harmed by your advice and hopefully a few others here. One email stated that you think you own this forum. You clearly don't like your territory invaded by someone who has more knowledge than you which is understandable. Since I don't have any shortcomings in my life that send me to the internet looking for adoration, I will leave you to your little corner of the world.

I didn't realize that many people felt that way and wish they would have said so or PMd or E-mailed to me. I noticed that TinyBubbles stopped responding so figured something was wrong there and said so. Many links that I post are to scientific studies and not just hearsay, but if people believe I'm just making stuff up and that the chemistry isn't sound, then that's not true, but unless they look at the chemistry themselves or have a chemist review it with them, then there's no way to prove it to themselves.

I told you before about the initial 4 hot tub itch/lung reports on this forum and the 3 subsequent ones, all but one of which occurred after 1.5 (most were 2) months of Dichlor-only use (one incident was with MPS use where chlorine levels were zero). I told you before that doesn't prove the problem is Dichlor, but is what got me looking into it. I have mentioned bromine and biguanide/PHMB as alternative sanitizers and with bromine have said that it smells different and some people have some sensitivity to it, but it works for many people and has floating feeders for dispensing so is convenient. Chlorine doesn't have that automated convenience (for spas) except for some SWG-equivalent for spas some have talked about.

I'll stop posting on this forum. For those who are still interested in the water chemistry, I can be found in the Advanced Chemistry section in this link and there is a spa/hot tub care section here. I'm sorry I offended anyone.

Richard

I just didn't see the point is going back and forth. "Is too." "Is not". "Is not". "Is too". Geez, even typing it wore me out. I'm not offended, just felt like any info. I posted was falling on deaf ears. I asked questions, I got answers, I can't fault anyone for that. I just took the answers as one opinion and kept investigating. Hopefully, I can't be faulted for that. I'm at a point now where I don't have any problems/questions, things are going smoothly. I don't know if anyone is interested, but I'll put it out there anyways. I have a good friend who works for the CDC but with a desk job, nothing related to disease control. He was, however, able to get me answers that I found quite helpful. The CDC's recommended levels for free chlorine have allowances built in for cya levels. They don't have guidelines for cya levels and refilling, but they do have tds guidelines(less than 2500 ppm). The reported outbreaks of psuedomonas they've seen were all traced to periods of time with little or no fc in the hot tubs. They have not had any outbreaks where fc levels were good but cya levels were high. They do note that at higher cya levels less fc is available which is why the make the recommendations that they do for fc levels(2-5ppm). I think waterbear was the first person here I saw speak of the importance of higher levels of fc. At the time, I thought he was just too conservative. Right now, I think he's right on the money. I don't give this info. to open up a debate, it looks like you've had enough of those going on. I just thought some people might this useful.

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I was warned by many people through emails that you won't listen to facts. The term google king was used and I understand their frustration. Anyone can claim to be anything online these days and google any term they want. That explains someone who doesn't own a spa or work with them hanging out on a spa forum telling people how to care for them. It's a shame that you are misleading and hurting so many people. I've been helping them privately since they are afraid to speak out against you in the forum. Remember that I was brought here by a customer who followed your bleach advice. You don't listen to facts and you aren't interested in the truth. You do not have one shred of evidence to prove that dichlor is a problem in spas, period. And even if it were, bleach would not be the solution. If you need to believe the sky is red despite the truth that it's blue then keep on believing. I have over 20 years experience in the business and you don't even own a spa. It's absurd. If you don't have an agenda why don't you lead people towards bromine or other alternatives to dichlor? I helped my customer that was harmed by your advice and hopefully a few others here. One email stated that you think you own this forum. You clearly don't like your territory invaded by someone who has more knowledge than you which is understandable. Since I don't have any shortcomings in my life that send me to the internet looking for adoration, I will leave you to your little corner of the world.

I didn't realize that many people felt that way and wish they would have said so or PMd or E-mailed to me. I noticed that TinyBubbles stopped responding so figured something was wrong there and said so. Many links that I post are to scientific studies and not just hearsay, but if people believe I'm just making stuff up and that the chemistry isn't sound, then that's not true, but unless they look at the chemistry themselves or have a chemist review it with them, then there's no way to prove it to themselves.

I told you before about the initial 4 hot tub itch/lung reports on this forum and the 3 subsequent ones, all but one of which occurred after 1.5 (most were 2) months of Dichlor-only use (one incident was with MPS use where chlorine levels were zero). I told you before that doesn't prove the problem is Dichlor, but is what got me looking into it. I have mentioned bromine and biguanide/PHMB as alternative sanitizers and with bromine have said that it smells different and some people have some sensitivity to it, but it works for many people and has floating feeders for dispensing so is convenient. Chlorine doesn't have that automated convenience (for spas) except for some SWG-equivalent for spas some have talked about.

I'll stop posting on this forum. For those who are still interested in the water chemistry, I can be found in the Advanced Chemistry section in this link and there is a spa/hot tub care section here. I'm sorry I offended anyone.

Richard

I just didn't see the point is going back and forth. "Is too." "Is not". "Is not". "Is too". Geez, even typing it wore me out. I'm not offended, just felt like any info. I posted was falling on deaf ears. I asked questions, I got answers, I can't fault anyone for that. I just took the answers as one opinion and kept investigating. Hopefully, I can't be faulted for that. I'm at a point now where I don't have any problems/questions, things are going smoothly. I don't know if anyone is interested, but I'll put it out there anyways. I have a good friend who works for the CDC but with a desk job, nothing related to disease control. He was, however, able to get me answers that I found quite helpful. The CDC's recommended levels for free chlorine have allowances built in for cya levels. They don't have guidelines for cya levels and refilling, but they do have tds guidelines(less than 2500 ppm). The reported outbreaks of psuedomonas they've seen were all traced to periods of time with little or no fc in the hot tubs. They have not had any outbreaks where fc levels were good but cya levels were high. They do note that at higher cya levels less fc is available which is why the make the recommendations that they do for fc levels(2-5ppm). I think waterbear was the first person here I saw speak of the importance of higher levels of fc. At the time, I thought he was just too conservative. Right now, I think he's right on the money. I don't give this info. to open up a debate, it looks like you've had enough of those going on. I just thought some people might this useful.

The 'allowances' built in for CYA are based on the outdated and flawed pinellas county study that was funded by a manufacturer of stabilzied chlorine!

TDS falls apart in areas where the fill water has higher TDS than the recommened amount or where a salt chlorine or bromine generator is used. TDS does track along with CYA when stabilizedc chlorine is used. Both incease with time but when the sanitizer becomes less effective is it the TDS or the CYA? HMMMMM, that'a a difficult one, NOT!

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