FULL FOAM VS NOT

[Chas]

If full foam insulation was really the better way to go our attics would be full foam. An air pocket has always been an awesome temperature regulator (thermos, double lined plastic cups). It is very efficient.

This is not a valid comparison. If you really believe that an attic full of air will insulate your home better, then climb up there and get rid of any insulation you may have. I am in the design phase on a home in the mountains, here in Southern Cal. They put twelve inches of insulation above the ceiling, and the attic stays as cold as ice. My home here on the coast has about four inches, and the house stays nice while the attic swelters. It sure isn't the air up there that is doing the insulating.

If you want to compare a thermos bottle to a spa, you had better make sure that spa has a completely sealed cabinet, and that there is actually a vacuum in the cabinet, because thats how a Thermos, or "vacuum bottle" as they are more properly called, works.

Like it or not, the leading spas use foam insulation. It works. I have talked to dealers from around the globe and it just flat works. You had a leak in your spa? Sorry to hear about it. A better dealer might have come out and fixed it in a day. Your bad experience doesn't change the laws of physics or the simple fact that there are millions of folks out there enjoying foam spas which do exactly what they are supposed to: stay hot and not cost a lot.

Want to buy a spa with some foam on the shell and more on the cabinet? Fine. If they are designed correctly, they work too. In fact, the difference might only be pennies per month.

[Jim_The_Jim]

This is not a valid comparison. If you really believe that an attic full of air will insulate your home better, then climb up there and get rid of any insulation you may have. I am in the design phase on a home in the mountains, here in Southern Cal. They put twelve inches of insulation above the ceiling, and the attic stays as cold as ice. My home here on the coast has about four inches, and the house stays nice while the attic swelters. It sure isn't the air up there that is doing the insulating.

If you want to compare a thermos bottle to a spa, you had better make sure that spa has a completely sealed cabinet, and that there is actually a vacuum in the cabinet, because thats how a Thermos, or "vacuum bottle" as they are more properly called, works.

Like it or not, the leading spas use foam insulation. It works. I have talked to dealers from around the globe and it just flat works. You had a leak in your spa? Sorry to hear about it. A better dealer might have come out and fixed it in a day. Your bad experience doesn't change the laws of physics or the simple fact that there are millions of folks out there enjoying foam spas which do exactly what they are supposed to: stay hot and not cost a lot.

Want to buy a spa with some foam on the shell and more on the cabinet? Fine. If they are designed correctly, they work too. In fact, the difference might only be pennies per month.

Chas; Your comparison has absolutely nothing to do with the way a thermally closed spa works. One of the things that I learned in the sales seminars is that you need to know all about the competition if you want to sell against them. Let me repeat; Thermally closed spas do not work like the way an attic is insulated, because there is no warm air barrier being used.

If you were to place a 1/4 inch warm air barrier between layers of insulation and the warm air barrier is warmer than the source (the tub), that 1/4 inch of warm air will stop all the heat losses out of the vessel. Air is 1341 times less expensive to heat than water. Are you beginning to understand. I have only told you this 30 or 40 times over the last few years.

Here is how it is stated again in the "Tong and Rogers Report":

Independent studies done by two universities ( Colorado and Arizona State Universities 1996) have found that using the waste heat generated by the equipment and transferring it into the spa's water is more efficient than filling the spa's cabinet with foam. Here is an excerpt from the report. "a fully insulated spa {full foam} makes no attempt to recover and use waste heat." (Tong and Rogers 1996). "...the performance of an insulating system which makes use of a thermal barrier, generated by waste heat rejected from the motors and pumps, in an enclosed air cavity around the tub is superior to a system which simply insulates the tub directly."

[missswissarmy]

Chas,

You did say attics have a 4-12' layer of insulation. It is essential for our attics to have air circulation. If money or storage space was no object we would want that hot air pocket up there. Believe otherwise and fill it FULL of insulation. Hmm, did your mommy tell you to wear one big thick heavy coat or layers in the winter? Does a heavy blanket or a downy layer of feathers keep you warmer? And how could soaking wet foam ever be good for your hot tub components? Cuz you sure as heck can't find leaks.

This is ridiculous. You obviously are selling something.

[East TX Spa]

Chas,

You did say attics have a 4-12' layer of insulation. It is essential for our attics to have air circulation. If money or storage space was no object we would want that hot air pocket up there. Believe otherwise and fill it FULL of insulation. Hmm, did your mommy tell you to wear one big thick heavy coat or layers in the winter? Does a heavy blanket or a downy layer of feathers keep you warmer? And how could soaking wet foam ever be good for your hot tub components? Cuz you sure as heck can't find leaks.

This is ridiculous. You obviously are selling something.

He is selling something. He is selling the most overwhelmingly popular spa on the planet. He has been selling them for 20 years. He has several thousand happy customers that own a product that does exactly what it is designed to do: provide years of relaxation and enjoyment with the peace of mind in knowing that the product is fully supported by the manufacturer. I do the same thing. While others quibble and obfuscate and try to eke out a living through subversive methods, Chas has a thriving and successful business based on these principles: Selling a quality product and taking care of his customers for the duration of their spa ownership. He should be congratulated for being a successful businessman and appreciated for his efforts on this and other forums for his willingness to help others. I applaud him.

Terminator

[Dr. Spa]

.

"It is essential for our attics to have air circulation."

Do you know why?........ *Jepordy theme song*........ TIMES UP!

Fiberglass insulation requires a moisture barrier between it, and the "warmer" living area to prevent moisture from condensating within the fiberglass insulation..... This is great in the winter time, but what happens in the sumer time when the "warmer" area is the attic??? If you don't have air circulation in your attic the insulation will mold, mildew, and eventually become completely water saturated....... This issue has absolutely nothing to do with spas

"If money or storage space was no object we would want that hot air pocket up there."

Ummmmm, actually, another reason for air circulation in the atic is to cool it in the summer to help reduce the amount of heat transfered into the home....... This issue has absolutely nothing to do with spas

"Hmm, did your mommy tell you to wear one big thick heavy coat or layers in the winter?"

Layers, always.... But the main reason is so that when you get hot, you can remove one layer at a time........ This issue has absolutely nothing to do with spas

"Does a heavy blanket or a downy layer of feathers keep you warmer?"

The downy layer of feathers of course. But do you know why?........ *Jepordy theme song*........ TIMES UP!

Air will only act as an insulater if the "pocket" of air is less than 1/4" in diameter. Any larger and convection occures. The convection will quickly transfer heat. Heat transfer = heat loss. THIS issue has quite a bit to do with some spas.

[Roger]

"It is essential for our attics to have air circulation."

"Hmm, did your mommy tell you to wear one big thick heavy coat or layers in the winter?"

Layers, always.... But the main reason is so that when you get hot, you can remove one layer at a time........ This issue has absolutely nothing to do with spas

Acualy here in Northern Minnesota we prefer one big ole heavy wool shirt over 5 t-shirts anyday!!!!!!!!

[Jim_The_Jim]

"It is essential for our attics to have air circulation."

Do you know why?........ *Jepordy theme song*........ TIMES UP!

Fiberglass insulation requires a moisture barrier between it, and the "warmer" living area to prevent moisture from condensating within the fiberglass insulation..... This is great in the winter time, but what happens in the sumer time when the "warmer" area is the attic??? If you don't have air circulation in your attic the insulation will mold, mildew, and eventually become completely water saturated....... This issue has absolutely nothing to do with spas

"If money or storage space was no object we would want that hot air pocket up there."

Ummmmm, actually, another reason for air circulation in the atic is to cool it in the summer to help reduce the amount of heat transfered into the home....... This issue has absolutely nothing to do with spas

"Hmm, did your mommy tell you to wear one big thick heavy coat or layers in the winter?"

Layers, always.... But the main reason is so that when you get hot, you can remove one layer at a time........ This issue has absolutely nothing to do with spas

"Does a heavy blanket or a downy layer of feathers keep you warmer?"

The downy layer of feathers of course. But do you know why?........ *Jepordy theme song*........ TIMES UP!

Air will only act as an insulater if the "pocket" of air is less than 1/4" in diameter. Any larger and convection occures. The convection will quickly transfer heat. Heat transfer = heat loss. THIS issue has quite a bit to do with some spas.

The use of warm air is the answer to the mystery dr spa. Try to imagine taking you spa and placing it inside a warm room. Will that insulate better than having the spa sitting out in the cold with a layer of foam?

That is why the Arctic with four times the Horse Power and 4 times the filtering of the Hot Spring was still less to run. In my opinion the Arctic would have done even better if the factory actually had engineers and set up different parameters for running the filter cycles.

[Roger]

That is why the Arctic with four times the Horse Power and 4 times the filtering of the Hot Spring was still less to run. In my opinion the Arctic would have done even better if the factory actually had engineers and set up different parameters for running the filter cycles.

But what if you put the same thickness cover on the others? Instead of giving the Arctic a 2 inch cover advantage!

[Dr. Spa]

Hey Roger............... besides the big ole heavy wool shirt over 5 t-shirts, do you wear a hat? Does it matter what kind of hat it is?

[thestallion]

For all of the debates about this. One thing is for sure the vast majority of the most commonly respected brands are all full foam and those company's that offer both "most" have a "up" charge to do full foam, make no mistake it costs more money to build a spa with full foam.

[SpaMan]

For all of the debates about this. One thing is for sure the vast majority of the most commonly respected brands are all full foam and those company's that offer both "most" have a "up" charge to do full foam, make no mistake it costs more money to build a spa with full foam.

Absolutely correct! Cal Spas does and L.A Spas did up until last year have fullfoam as an upcharge. I dont know what they are doing now.

[Roger]

Hey Roger............... besides the big ole heavy wool shirt over 5 t-shirts, do you wear a hat? Does it matter what kind of hat it is?

Well hopfully and this mind you is only if it falls to a balmy -5 and below then we do wear a hat and a tuke is prefered because it is thick wool and provides ample insulation, fits the head tight, covers the ears and it beats 5 baseball caps in layers anyday!!

[Chas]

Wow. Why do people DO THAT to themselves. Brrr. I like 72 degrees, year 'round.

[Jim_The_Jim]

For all of the debates about this. One thing is for sure the vast majority of the most commonly respected brands are all full foam and those company's that offer both "most" have a "up" charge to do full foam, make no mistake it costs more money to build a spa with full foam.

Our factory charges nearly twice the price of full foam to do a thermally sealed cabinet. It is much more labor intense to cut and fill the spaces of the cabinet. To seal the corners, and to seal the top lip of the spa tight.

The traditional spas with foam on the shell and and air space and a bare cabinet are not thermal pane or thermally closed. Many of the spa sales people use a spa like an LA with no insulation on the cabinet as a "not full foam". It isn't, but it is also not a thermally sealed spa like an Arctic or our brand.

In all independent tests in which the two designs were compared, the thermally closed design was favored for energy efficiency.

The use of full foam is not because of any engineering testing. It is simply done by spa companies because they don't know any better. They just don't know how to make a spa that won't freeze fast in cold places, and that doesn't waste the energy of the jet pumps heat.

When the consumers wise up to this, and realize how much money is wasted in the Full Foam vs the Thermally Closed, things will change.

[Dr. Spa]

tuke? baseball cap? DUDE! What's the difference? A hat is a hat, and as long as heavy coat, the hat doesn't matter.

[thestallion]

Our factory charges nearly twice the price of full foam to do a thermally sealed cabinet. It is much more labor intense to cut and fill the spaces of the cabinet. To seal the corners, and to seal the top lip of the spa tight.

The traditional spas with foam on the shell and and air space and a bare cabinet are not thermal pane or thermally closed. Many of the spa sales people use a spa like an LA with no insulation on the cabinet as a "not full foam". It isn't, but it is also not a thermally sealed spa like an Arctic or our brand.

In all independent tests in which the two designs were compared, the thermally closed design was favored for energy efficiency.

The use of full foam is not because of any engineering testing. It is simply done by spa companies because they don't know any better. They just don't know how to make a spa that won't freeze fast in cold places, and that doesn't waste the energy of the jet pumps heat.

When the consumers wise up to this, and realize how much money is wasted in the Full Foam vs the Thermally Closed, things will change.

This would certainly clear this up and end this debate once and for all IF IT WERE TRUE . Jim if Phoenix who actually makes the spas you sell can get you to pay more for them, My hats to them for you buying into it. Because at a retail level the other makers charge the consumer more for full foam if they offer both. It is simply cheaper to build a TP spa than a FF and please do not belittle the process and make it sound like something it is not. In certain conditions they both will perform well. But Jim please if the guys with the most dollars, Hot Springs, D-1, Marquis, Jacuzzi found it was better to build the TP style they would do in a heartbeat they sell many more spas than "most" others, they are known for backing up their warranty's and if would be be beneficial to the consumer and themselves they would go that way. Interesting to me is that all of the older and more established makers are over whelming of the FF design, why because over time it has proven itself to be the best. Not that TP can not work effectively also.

[Chas]

The use of full foam is not because of any engineering testing. It is simply done by spa companies because they don't know any better. They just don't know how to make a spa that won't freeze fast in cold places, and that doesn't waste the energy of the jet pumps heat.

Jim, this is very typical of your posts. But I'm afraid that it is absolutely wrong. Tell us about your spa, and how it works and why you think it's the greatest idea in the world. But to make a statement that you can not possibly back up like the above is silly. You have debated the independant testing HS has done - even though it was totally scientific and easily repeated by any other maker with the guts to try it - so you know that your statement is in error. Also, you know that HS and many others recycle the hot air from the jet pump motors back into the jet system in such a way that the tubs can actually get warmer as they run with the heater off under the right conditions. HS is not the only maker to look closely at the way they build spas - make adjustments, fine tune and update - but stick with what works and works well. I'm glad you are around, and I'm glad you make your tubs the way you do. We need different approaches to things. But don't let your anger over the fact that these other makers have a system which works very well and outsells yours by a wide margain goad you into making statements about how "Bad" these spa are when literally millions of people are enjoying them around the globe. A HS spa or other major brand of spa will do a fine job keeping warm, not costing a fortune to run even in a cold climate - and there are hundreds of thousands of them out there proving it.

When the consumers wise up to this, and realize how much money is wasted in the Full Foam vs the Thermally Closed, things will change.

HS has been the number one selling brand of portable spas and the hot tub industry leader for over 27 years. Caldera has been around for 28 years. Jacuzzi is older, Sundance is right in there. Somehow I think that consumers have 'caught on' already, and what they have been buying and continue to buy seems to speak loudly enough for most of us.

[thestallion]

HS has been the number one selling brand of portable spas and the hot tub industry leader for over 27 years. Caldera has been around for 28 years. Jacuzzi is older, Sundance is right in there. Somehow I think that consumers have 'caught on' already, and what they have been buying and continue to buy seems to speak loudly enough for most of us.

Marquis will be celebrating year 27

[Jim_The_Jim]

Let me repeat; For the I don't know how many times:

It costs more to produce a true thermally closed spa, because it is much more labor intensive to produce, and the materials are more expenisive.

In all independent tests in which a thermally closed, truely engineered insulation system, was compared to the archaic full foam. The thermally sealed was preferred for energy efficiency.

None of you have any idea why, and that is why this is going to sneak up on you and leave you in the dust.

The reason why the full foam guys do not understand this, and do not want to believe it is simple. They have been telling people for years that full foam is the best, when actually since about 1992 it has not been the best, with the advent of the first thermally closed spas.

To build a full foam spa, all it takes is one guy with a foam gun and about 20 minutes. There is no struture needed on a spa like that so there is no labor to build a framework or a strong cabinet. The foam does that.

There also is no need to have a strong shell, because the foam does that.

How is it that a spa that should sell for $4500 at full retail, compared to other stronger made spas, is being sold for nearly $10,000?

The answer is hype, advertising, and consumer ignorance on the subject of spas.

I strongly suggest that all shoppers take a lot of education with you when you go shopping and do the research necessary to not fall for sales pitches and no buy spas that are just plain poor values in todays market.

Instead of listening to sales pitches, look at the spas. What do you see? How strong is the shell? How many jets can you run at full pressure at the same time? How much power is at the jets? How is the heat from the pumps actually used? Are those "awards" for real? (NOT!).

I don't think that the words: "Buyer Beware" is stronger in any high ticket industry as it is in the spa industry.

If you live in a winter climate, here is the question to ask;

If I am leaving town to go on a trip in December through February and it is 10 degrees outside ambient, if the GFCI trips right on the day I leave, what will I come home to after a couple of days?

The best answer I ever got on that question came from a D1 salesman.

His face turned red, and he became quiet. He never answered that question.

Do you know why? Guess?

[East TX Spa]

In 2000, we had an ice storm come through NE Texas. Power lines went down and the electricity went out. This was on a Sunday.

I have a customer that owned a HotSpring Sovereign (Full-Foam) running off of a 110v outlet. His water temperature was set on 102*. On Thursday, he took a thermometer out and checked the water temperature of his spa. It was 94*. After 4 days of below freezing temperatures and no electricity, his fully-foamed HotSpring Spa only dropped EIGHT degrees. His family bathed in it as it was the only hot water they had available.

This is a real-world customer experience, not some theoretical hypothesis cooked up in a testing laboratory. That should put this to bed once and for all.

Terminator

[Chas]

Shoppers: I'm sorry Jim has expressed such a low opinion of full foam spas - keep in mind that he sells another style of product, and that he has been bashing the others like this for years. Also keep in mind that not everything he says about the costs or methods of construction apply to the spa you may be looking at - his are blanket statements which simply cannot fit in every case. I'm sure his knowledge of HIS product is unparalleled.

Also be aware that the method of insulation will not make a huge difference in your energy bill: provided we are talking about major name brands. Put a Sundance next to a HotSpring, D1, Jacuzzi, et al, and you will get a power bill within dollars of each other. A significant difference might come from one or another having MUCH larger jet pumps, but even that could account for as little as a few dollars per month, and if you want the added 'umph' you would most likely pay that small difference gladly.

Finally - keep in mind that while Jim's spas might work very well, and might be the spa that you and your family could be happy with for many years to come, you have to go through Jim to get one, and you have to deal with him for service.

[thestallion]

.

The reason why the full foam guys do not understand this, and do not want to believe it is simple. They have been telling people for years that full foam is the best, when actually since about 1992 it has not been the best, with the advent of the first thermally closed spas.

To build a full foam spa, all it takes is one guy with a foam gun and about 20 minutes. There is no struture needed on a spa like that so there is no labor to build a framework or a strong cabinet. The foam does that.

There also is no need to have a strong shell, because the foam does that.

Jim,

what a total lie, You take and make a statement like the one above, All full foam spas are not the same while some may use foam for added support, not all do. and again James the bottom line is it does cost more money for full foam, This is something that is not debatable simply let the shopper that looks at those who offer both and the FF will cost more. Its almost like you want people to ignore what their ears can hear and their eyes can see and believe only in what you say.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Shoppers: I'm sorry Jim has expressed such a low opinion of full foam spas - keep in mind that he sells another style of product, and that he has been bashing the others like this for years. Also keep in mind that not everything he says about the costs or methods of construction apply to the spa you may be looking at - his are blanket statements which simply cannot fit in every case. I'm sure his knowledge of HIS product is unparalleled.

Also be aware that the method of insulation will not make a huge difference in your energy bill: provided we are talking about major name brands. Put a Sundance next to a HotSpring, D1, Jacuzzi, et al, and you will get a power bill within dollars of each other. A significant difference might come from one or another having MUCH larger jet pumps, but even that could account for as little as a few dollars per month, and if you want the added 'umph' you would most likely pay that small difference gladly.

Finally - keep in mind that while Jim's spas might work very well, and might be the spa that you and your family could be happy with for many years to come, you have to go through Jim to get one, and you have to deal with him for service.

Actually Chas; We have H Reps across the country. They offer the spas and they take care of service for their customers. Most of them are customers who love the product so they want to sell it to their friends. This is a new program that we have implimented. It avoids the pitfalls and costs of retail stores. Our first rep sold four spas this last week.

You and the rest do not know much at all about our products. But our service department has worked on just about ever product there is. We also still do warranty work for a few brands.

We have service people all across the country now. We are well established and doing very well after 9 years.

I feel sorry for people who are missled into buying something that is way out of date, sincerely. I wish that a person like you would sell a better product, but that is just my opinion. I don't understand you, and how you can hang on so tightly to a company that does the things that it has done??

I think you have the Cart before the Horse here. I started out in the service industry in hot tubs. I designed the tubs we have after the book I wrote on spas. It is a compiliation of service related information.

The H###n Spas (the owner of the forum don't want any advetising on the forum, but you can click below on the adds) came long after the book was written.

I believe that the full foam spas will all be gone in less than 10 years, simply because the other methods are far better for servicability, longevity, and insulation. The consumers are going to call the shots as the information is disseminated. This is the age of information.

Actually the tests I have heard about when the Arctic and the Sundace were side by side was about 30% more cost for the Sundance in the winter of Wyoming.

[Roger]

Actually the tests I have heard about when the Arctic and the Sundace were side by side was about 30% more cost for the Sundance in the winter of Wyoming.

Did they both have the same thickness on the cover? where 80% of the heat loss is. Or once again are we going to ignore the fact that a 2 inch thicker cover relates to approxamitly 50 percent increase in r-factor in the cover. Where they both running the jet pumps for the same amount of time?

Your credibility suffers everytime you mention a supposed "independent test" that turns out to be not so independent and is full of information skewwing the results to a particular brands favor.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Did they both have the same thickness on the cover? where 80% of the heat loss is. Or once again are we going to ignore the fact that a 2 inch thicker cover relates to approxamitly 50 percent increase in r-factor in the cover. Where they both running the jet pumps for the same amount of time?

Your credibility suffers everytime you mention a supposed "independent test" that turns out to be not so independent and is full of information skewwing the results to a particular brands favor.

Just for you, Roger, when I do my test, I will use the exact same cover on both. I'll even put a thermal blanket on both.

Last time I checked Sundance used the Ideal covers. Does anyone know if they are still using them?