FULL FOAM VS NOT

[Guest mooser 1937]

In the cold climate of canada is full foam better ? and would it be cheaper to operate

[Guest spaman.com]

YES! AND YES! I have sold the L.A Spas in Arizona where the full foam is not necessary and in the cold climete I would not sell a spa that was not full foam as the heat is trapped in with no escape causes the temperature stay in the tub. I have said this before it works much like your thermous! Trigger will enlighten you on that subject!LOL

[Guest Trigger]

Not another FF argument?

Spaman, maybe I missed something, but a thermos is a vacuum insulation and I don't understand the analogy you are making.

Mooser, You just asked a question that will more than likey start a long debate. I would recomend you read older threads that discuss this, as well as visit some of the other Spa forums that also discuss this.

I belive if you go with a major brand, the FF and TP issue is not as critical as some would have it.

[Guest East Tx Spa]

Full foam would be better and cheaper to operate.

Terminator

[Guest spaman.com]

Trigger my friend, arent the principles of vacuum and full foam roughly the same.Or am I missing something here too? I have been wrong in the past however the way I see it they work in the same manner! I am not wanting to start another long debate I am merely staing my opinion based from my experiences. Of course there is a chance I may be wrong but I have seen both scenarios and it seems that in the spas I have seen that use the TP vs the FF the pumps and heaters run more in Tp because of heat loss! Not naming any brands of course! I am certain that differing opinions will post thats why were here!

[Guest Trigger]

They are the same in as much they both insualte. :^)

A Vacumm works as an insualtor because there nothing in the space to transfer the the heat. (there are other issues on why a vacuum is not most practical insualtor, but thats another issue).

Foam insualtion works by trapping tiny air in the foam and slows the transfer of heat.

[Guest Trigger]

Christ sorry...I know if I don't correct it "some one" will,

Faom insualtion works by slowing the transfer of heat through the foam by a network of tiny cells. Compairng a ff tub to a vacuum isn't correct.

Comparing a TP tub for that matter to a vacuum would also be inccorect.

Using a "thermos" for an insualtion analogy in hot tubs is a poor one as it gives the impression that you are insulating by a vaccuum.

Anyhow, Mooser, I have a ff tub and prefer it as well.

Good luck.,

[Guest amanda]

I think it would be good to know how much it really saves someone. If it costs less to operate, how much less?

[Guest Steve]

In reality you guys, it means very little and it represents about 3% of what this purchase is about.

The FF / Thermal debate will continue but the smart shoppers will enquire about comfort, therapy, low maintenance and the quality of the dealer from a sales and service perspective.

I am a firm believer that "most" quality spas operate within $5 per month of each other. I don't believe that this figure (even if it was $10 monthly) would justify an ongoing debate. People who buy Corvettes don't care that much about gas milage and as long as it's reasonable, end of topic...

There are so many factors that make up "cost of operation" but suffice to say that most run at or under a buck a day in normal conditions. If you can't afford that or $50 bucks a month, you can't afford a hot tub people!

Go take the family out to a movie once a month and it will cost far more than that!

I get frustrated with this question and the answers it brings. There's no proof that FF is superior and visa versa. It's "posturing"and somtimes I think it's done to cover up weaknesses of certain dealers / manufacturers and deflect attention away from those key aspects of the purchase.

Thanks for letting me rant and I'm stepping off my soap box now... :-)

Steve

[Guest Chas]

I have sold both - and the difference is minor.

Go with a name brand, a dealer you like, a warranty that you can read in advance, and if at all possible, wet test.

Make your choice on other, more important things - such as comfort, longevity of the company who makes the tub, jet variety, ease of care, how long it takes to get the thing, how long it takes for a service guy to get to you if you ever need one, etc.

[Guest eirc]

Topics like this just turn up trolls like Jim. Ok first and for most, how many homes are vacuumed sealed none! How many homes are thermal pained sealed Just the windows. Every nook and crany is stuffed with insulation. For two reasons 1 to stop heat lost, 2nd reason sound reduction! Wow I bet that is why the major brands Use full foam.

[Guest spa owner]

Mooser...

The first few responses to your original post were the best posts concerning the Full Foam vs Not Full Foam question, that I have seen in a long time. The debate will rage for years so the best advice that was given was to wet test a spa, pick the spa that feels best to you and purchase it. As pointed out by Steve, you are talking about a $5 increase / month in utility bills for the least efficient spa.

Let's review a little. You have purchased a spa that requires chemicals, plastics, oils, electicity, etc... to manufacture. You put chemicals such as Bromine and Chlorine into the spa that deplete the ozone layer. You use $30 / month in electricity to run a spa and Jim wants us to save the world by purchasing a spa from him that has their electic motors contained within the insulated walls of the spa cabinet. I am not an electician, but I was always led to believe that electic motors, bearings, etc... run more efficiently and have less wear at lower temeratures.

In the end... wet test the spa, look at the service record of the dealer and the spa manufacturer, then purchase, install and enjoy your new spa.

[Guest mooser 1937]

amen steve

[Guest mooser 1937]

OMG sorry i asked this question . but if it was included at no charge in canada would full foam be a good idea. a simple yes or no will suffice , thanks all

[Guest Swimfan]

yes

[Guest East Tx Spa]

Yes

Terminator

[Guest Chas]

yes

[Guest Steve]

Sure...but it wouldn't be the deciding factor on the brand I purchased.

DARN...that was more than one word wasn't it? lol...

Steve

[Guest mooser 1937]

thanks guys lol

[Guest wls]

I believe after a certain poiint you wind up loosing more heat off the top cover than from the sides. Most covers fit loosly and have gaping spaces along the hinges.

Super insulating the inside is more of a sales talking point while the loss off the top is ignored. And as to the comment that the motors run better cool while that is true of a average motor the pumps are pushing water -a coolent -which picks up a lot of the motor generated heat.

[Guest spatech (the unreal one)]

"Super insulating the inside is more of a sales talking point while the loss off the top is ignored."

Who is ignoring the cover? They are separate entities and you don't have to pick one or the other to desing well. You simply want to super insulate the sides AND have a very well fitting well insultated cover?

[Guest Chas]

WLS: "pumps are pushing water -a coolent -which picks up a lot of the motor generated heat."

I wish that were true. Yes, they are moving water, but the 'wet end' and motor are not close enough - in most spa pumps - to transfer that heat fast enough to cool the motor. I have seen spa pump motors overheat because the vents for the motor compartment got plugged up by accident or by design. You will reduce the life of a spa pump motor if it sits in a hot environment.

That is why most makers now utilize the same arrangement HotSpring has for years: they put a shroud on the motor to duct the heat away. In fact, HS recycles that hot air into the jet system, and it does help keep the tub warm on a cold evening, but there is much more hot air going out the vent.

[Amanda]

Simple yes or no is hard for me but, I'd have to say no. It's true cost may differ a few bucks a month for operation but how can any of the companies prove it? Ask for documentation on this and you will see what I mean. Some companies can provide this but I'd make sure it was a test documented by someone/ some company with their reputation on the line. You may want to think of what will be needed for future service concerns. After warranties have worn out through the years... what exactly would you have to do yourself or pay someone to do to help fix it as the spa ages? I've heard this can be costly or time consuming with certain types of insulation (full foam). Cost of operation may differ a few bucks but the service factor can vary by hundreds. Some manufacturers used to use full foam and have changed for this very reason... to service the customers better in the future while keeping cost of operation down. Just a little something to think about. It's a good question and you'll get many answers no-doubt! Good luck to you!

[missswissarmy]

If full foam insulation was really the better way to go our attics would be full foam. An air pocket has always been an awesome temperature regulator (thermos, double lined plastic cups). It is very efficient. I think full foam was a way to keep crappy components quiet and still and companies can 'get by' with thinner shells because the hard foam is going to support them. Thank you but I'd rather have a company that doesn't do it like everyone else did in the 70's just because that's they way it has always been done and because they can skimp with insulation. I like foam on the shell only with hoses exposed (so they can be reached EASY, and also perimeter insulation which leaves a hot air pocket in the middle. Have you ever tried to find a leak in one of those foam packed spas? Change a light bulb with out scrathing your nuckles? A Catalina dealer even told my parents (who owned a leaky Catalina) that the foam was GOOD because it absorbed all the water when it leaked. It would have been better to be able to FIND that leak. Of course they weren't there when we tried to move the water logged thing it to make room for a Gulf Coast Spa.

[Jim_The_Jim]

If full foam insulation was really the better way to go our attics would be full foam. An air pocket has always been an awesome temperature regulator (thermos, double lined plastic cups). It is very efficient. I think full foam was a way to keep crappy components quiet and still and companies can 'get by' with thinner shells because the hard foam is going to support them. Thank you but I'd rather have a company that doesn't do it like everyone else did in the 70's just because that's they way it has always been done and because they can skimp with insulation. I like foam on the shell only with hoses exposed (so they can be reached EASY, and also perimeter insulation which leaves a hot air pocket in the middle. Have you ever tried to find a leak in one of those foam packed spas? Change a light bulb with out scrathing your nuckles? A Catalina dealer even told my parents (who owned a leaky Catalina) that the foam was GOOD because it absorbed all the water when it leaked. It would have been better to be able to FIND that leak. Of course they weren't there when we tried to move the water logged thing it to make room for a Gulf Coast Spa.

My guys went out to move a Sundance spa that was only a couple of years old. The fellow who owned it, just never used it and sold it to his neighbor across the street. When the guys tried to lift it to put it up on the dolly they could not pick it up. These are young and very strong guys.

My worker took his knife and poked a hole in the bottom pan and water started flowing out. I guess the new way to not have leaks is to let them go into the pan at the bottom and let the foam soak it up.

The owner had no idea the spa was leaking.

Full Foam is archaic.