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Nature2 And Sanitation


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I originally posted this in another thread here but it really belongs in its own thread (so as not to hijack the other one).

[EDIT] I finally found some scientific literature that backs up the Nature2 "low chlorine recipe" that uses Nature2 silver ions with MPS here. The following was written before I found such scientific literature. [END-EDIT]

This is in response to the Nature2 instructions for low chlorine that are basically daily (or every spa use) addition of non-chlorine shock (MPS) and maintenance of the MPS level along with "as needed" addition of Dichlor.

There are inconsistencies in what Nature2 claims and what the EPA says. Let's start with the term "shock" which the EPA writes about here. The relevant text I want to point out is:

Statements which clarify the intent of the product are encouraged by the Agency. The Agency recommends inclusion of the following statements on the label of oxidizer or shock-oxidizer products: “This product is neither a sanitizer nor algicide. For control of microorganisms in pool, spa, or hot tub water, or algae control, use an EPA registered product.”

MPS shock, which is Dupont Oxone sold under various brand names, is an oxidizer, not a sanitizer, as stated on this page. Because of this, non-chlorine shock (MPS) is NOT registered as a pesticide with the EPA. This does not mean that it does not kill bacteria at all, but rather that it does not do so very quickly nor thoroughly. It is somewhat similar to PolyQuat 60 algicide which also kills bacteria, but slowly and not thoroughly (though the method of action is completely different between MPS ad PolyQuat).

Back in 1999, the makers of Nature2 settled with the EPA as shown here because they were making claims as a sanitizer without doing the appropriate registration (and testing) with the EPA.

As you can see from this relatively recent 2006 submission list, Zodiac has (along with other companies) registered "copper sulfate pentahydrate", "copper sulfate (anhydrous)" and "silver" in their products. The registration process for antimicrobial pesticides is described here. You will note that it is the entire system that is registered -- that is, the product plus its specific instructions for use. For mineral ion products, such as Nature2, a fast-acting algicide such as chlorine is always used, but here's the trick...

The Zodiac owners manual for Nature2 Spa may be found here. Note that it is called a low chlorine recipe, not a zero chlorine recipe. Nevertheless, the recipe describes an initial superchlorination to 12.5 ppm FC after a fresh refill, then the "low-chlorine" (not zero chlorine) recipe is adding MPS before you get in if it does not measure high enough (otherwise you add 16 ppm of MPS) and after you get out you add 16 ppm of MPS. They list "As Needed" a shock treatment with an EPA registered source of Dichlor of around 12.5 ppm FC "to remedy problems which may occur when bathing loads are high, when successive MPS test strip reading indicate high demand, when water appears hazy or dull, when unpleasant odors or eye irritation occur, after heavy wind and rainstorms or if foam develops."

Basically what happens for the EPA registration process is this. You do a procedure as described by your instructions and then with periodic monitoring you submit your results to the EPA. The procedures are outlined here where there does not appear to be a separate procedure for spas as compared to pools. The trick is the "As Needed" part of the Nature2 instructions. Depending on how you conducted your tests, you can easily have high bather loads every so often and then add Dichlor or just decide that it was needed for other reasons. The problem is that the EPA procedure says that "Samples should be taken just below the surface of the water and preferably at such times when the number of persons using the pool during the preceding hour has been at least equal to 50% of the maximum bather load of the pool and the number of persons in the pool water at the time the samples are collected is at least equal to 25% of the maximum bather load of the pool." So if one adds Dichlor whenever there is higher bather load or at reasonable frequency, then one can pass the EPA test, but is hardly a low-chlorine system in that case. However, this isn't how Nature2 is sold as "If used with MPS, the most recommended spa oxidant, Nature2 Spa becomes a complete spa sanitizing system - the only non-chlorine spa sanitizing option available."

Now I wasn't actually there when these tests were made by Zodiac and I haven't seen the logs of when they added Dichlor or when they took their measurements, but I doubt that any measurement of bacterial counts in water with zero chlorine would pass the EPA test even with Nature2 and MPS IF there were bathers in the water and the measurement was made after bacteria were shed and growing. The MPS and copper/silver simply would not kill the bacteria quickly enough. Note, however, that the EPA procedure can have one do the measurement just AFTER the bather load has occurred and by definition with the Zodiac instructions, you add MPS after such bather load and can measure after some time so long as the high bather load occurred in the last HOUR; besides, with high bather load, you'd add Dichlor and the bacteria would likely be killed within a minute or two. I don't know if such tricks were played, but I can certainly see that the EPA procedures do not account for this sort of thing.

Finally, note that the low chlorine instructions from Zodiac basically require that MPS levels be maintained, but I would bet that far more people will be irritated by maintained MPS levels in the Zodiac Nature2 regimen as described in their instructions than by chlorine levels in a chlorine-only regimen since the MPS oxidizer is about as strong an oxidizer as chlorine but does not have any CYA equivalent to regulate its effective concentration. The recommended 16 ppm MPS concentration is roughly equivalent to 3 ppm FC but without any CYA. Remember that my recommendation of 4 ppm FC with 20 ppm CYA is equivalent to around 0.2 ppm FC with no CYA so 1/15th the oxidizing strength of the MPS amount (oxidizing strength is not the same as disinfecting strength -- MPS is not a strong disinfectant while chlorine is exceptionally strong against most pathogens).

I'm not saying that the risk is high by following the Zodiac Nature2 instructions, but that the idea that you can get sanitized water with frequent bather load but without regular use of chlorine (or bromine or Biguanide/Baqua/PHMB) is false. In practice, in a private spa/tub at home the risk is very low unless you have a party in which case chlorine should most definitely be used. Just remember that without chlorine in the water, the fecal-to-oral route for bacteria is much more likely since neither copper/silver nor MPS kill bacteria quickly enough. In a commercial spa, the Nature2 instructions effectively default to using chlorine since the bather load is generally high. Given the irritation possibilities from MPS, I think that the chlorine regimen is the way to go (for chlorine sanitation; bromine is another very reasonable choice and if there is sensitivity to both of those then Biguanide/Baqua/PHMB is another choice). I doubt very much that many people are following the Nature2 instructions and adding MPS before they get into the spa/tub if the MPS reads low; I suspect most just add it only after they get out.

By the way, according to Dupont the definition of high bather load is <1000 gal/bather/day; medium bather load is 1000-5000 gal/bather/day; low bather load is >5000 gal/bather/day. This pretty much puts most home spas into the high bather load category even when used with a single bather (unless used infrequently, say only once a week). I can't find what Zodiac is using as their definition of high bather load. By the way, the NSPI standard (seen here) for the number of days between each drain/refill cleaning of a private spa is 1/3 * (spa volume in gallons) / (daily bather load). If one person used a 350 gallon spa every day, that would be 1/3 * (350) / 1 = 116 days or almost 4 months though they recommend changing the water at a minimum of 3 months. Two people every day would be around 2 months.

The bottom line is not that Nature2 is bad, because it's not. It's just that it may not be completely honest in its claims for people seeking a chlorine/bromine/Baqua free sanitation system and therefore it would be better to understand what's going on which is what I've tried to do above. The proper use of chlorine is not a bad thing and using it with Nature2, along with not going too high in CYA levels (so not using Dichlor all the time, but instead switching to bleach at some point) is fine. If the chlorine level ever gets to zero, having Nature2 around at least inhibits pathogen growth (in between tub uses) so is better than not having it and it also enhances chlorine's effectiveness so theoretically lower chlorine levels could be used (which in practice could be done via somewhat higher CYA levels since you still need enough chlorine to not run out). It's not cheap, but can be seen as insurance. If you are diligent about maintaining decent chlorine levels, then it isn't needed.

Richard

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Richard,

We sell a lot of Nature2 and are big proponents of it, but I completely agree with your assessment. They got the EPA on board with a system that technically follows the rules but isn't as good as the old recipe of dosing with chlorine and shocking with MPS. We still push the old system. It's easier to understand, especially for previous chlorine only users since you are basically adding the N2 stick and using less chlorine.

The bottom line is they are trying to reach the people that want a chlorine/bromine free solution. The problem is that it doesn't exist if you really want your water sanitized. We sell a lot of ecoONE too and Pacific Sands even pushes the dichlor. In the effort to get the "alternative spa care" customers, they're stretching the details a bit. But honestly, it can probably be said that they "low chlorine recipe" is a lot better than most of that crap that passes itself off as safe alternative spa water care. I just wish the Zodiac marketing department weren't taking such liberties with the fine details. You should also notice that Zodiac markets an MPS product (Cense - it's a nice product with aromatherapy built in).

Nature2 is great. Just dose with dichlor and shock with MPS.

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Thanks Richard,

This is the type of information I had been seeking in my questions.

Now which of the taylor kits should I get for testing, as I am only using strips right now?

At what level should I be maintaining my chlorine? And from what I understand from the above I should testing and adjusting prior to and not after soaking?

I had been testing 1x per week, bringing the chlorine up to the high end of the scale, then adding 2 oz of the Oxidizer and letting the tub circulate for an hour. Then after each soak adding .5 oz per person of the Oxidizer. This is a 343 gal spa that 2 people use 5-6 x per week. It has an ozonater and the N2 cartridge, after each use and addition of the Oxidizer I circulate the tub for 1/2hr. It is also on a 4x1hr per day filtration cycle. What changes (if any) should I make to my proceedure? (PS I can't use clorox as the wife is alergic to it)

Lastly I asked the dealer about my PH reading which I have trouble maintaining, it always seems to be on the low end of the scale and I add 2 to 4 oz of increaser per week. The dealer stated that this was not unexpected with the Ozonator and N2 system, yet reading the boards most people seem to have trouble keeping their PH down. Is what the dealer telling me true or do I have something else going on?

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The Taylor K-2006 kit is the one to get and is at a good price here. Another kit that is very similar (and is based on Taylor chemicals) but has 36% more volume is the TF-100 kit here so is comparably priced per volume (the TF-100 doesn't have the acid/base demand tests that you don't always need, measures CYA down to 20 ppm instead of 30 ppm, and comes with both FAS-DPD and OTO chlorine tests).

I think that initially it would be good for you to test the chlorine level before you get into the spa to see if you have at least a small residual left. Though technically one should have a fairly consistent level at all times, which probably means dosing before as well as after use, many people do not want the smell or exposure to that level of chlorine so the next best thing is a low level (say 1 ppm FC) when you get in and add chlorine (to 4 ppm FC or maybe more, depending on bather load) when you get out. If you decide to add chlorine before you get in, then if you add chlorine 5-10 minutes before you get in and keep the cover off during this time before you get in, then that can help a lot with reducing chlorine smell. You should just experiment and see what works best for you.

I can guarantee you that if you are using Dichlor, then your wife is not allergic to Clorox Bleach, at least not when it's diluted in the spa water. The chlorine from both is identical when in the water. I suspect it's the concentrated fumes that bother her or it could be scents in bleach if that is what was used (only unscented bleach should be used for the spa). If you use only bleach and don't start off with Dichlor after a fresh refill, then I could also see how she would be sensitive to that as the disinfecting chlorine level would be too high, but if Dichlor is used initially for 1-2 weeks, then switching to bleach should not be a problem for her -- especially if you generally add it after you get out of the tub so that the level is low when you next get in. Add the bleach with the jets off, but the circulation running.

On the other hand, if you've only been testing and adding chlorine once a week, and with your ozonator probably using up some chlorine (oxidizing it to chlorate) then the peak chlorine exposure was probably only for the first day or two, after you added it -- assuming you brought the levels up very high and it would still only be a high disinfecting chlorine level in the first weeks after a fresh refill. So perhaps you've been avoiding the chlorine exposure to your wife by not adding it as often. My wife is also very sensitive to chemicals (sensitive skin, sensitive to smell, etc.), but she has no reaction nor even smells the chlorine in our pool if I maintain it with an FC of around 10% of the CYA level (of course, a pool doesn't outgas chlorine very much because of the lower water temperature and lack of jets aerating the water). So between your ozonator and N2 perhaps you can try using Dichlor a little longer than what I recommend -- so about 2-3 weeks worth at 4 ppm FC added each day -- and then switch to bleach, adding it after you get out of the tub. That is, you can target a CYA level of around 50 ppm which would be a lower disinfecting chlorine level that should be less irritating for her while still providing sanitation given your use of N2. Another alternative to bleach that would have the same disinfecting effect without adding extra CYA would be to use Lithium Hypochlorite which is a powder/granules (one person reported it being hard to dissolve, but it's supposed to dissolve readily so just watch out for that).

The reason your pH tends to go down is probably due to two factors. Your TA level is probably not very high -- it might be 80 or lower -- and your daily addition of oxidizer (MPS shock) is acidic, though not very much (it depends on how much you are adding). I don't think N2 nor the ozonator have anything to do with making the pH drop. If anything, the ozonator would make it rise if the TA was higher. I wouldn't muck around with the TA just yet -- you can do that after you've settled on your routine. Try switching to adding chlorine after you get out of the tub and you can still add some oxidizer when you get out or you can instead add a larger amount once a week -- up to you which you prefer. I suspect that if you add the oxidizer first when you get out, that you may find somewhat lower chlorine usage.

Richard

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Thanks again...cut and pasted this into an email and sent it home.

My TA has been stable in what the strips show as the target range and I have not had to adjust it for quite a while now. I am a noob at all this so you may have to bear with me. When we first filled the tub and had the water tested at the store they gave us the start up dosing. Then for the next month or so, I struggled with the chemicals they gave us, which was the chlorine granuals, the oxidizer, hardness (increase/decrease dont remember which), TA increaser and PH decreaser. I was always trying to raise the TA and PH by using the TA increaser which also seemed to raise the PH. However to get the PH high enough the TA would be too high. That is when I bought the PH increaser and started using it to increase just the PH. Since that time the TA has remained pretty stable and I just have to keep using the PH increaser weekly.

I will have to get the Taylor kit you recommended to get some actual numbers on what the TA is though. Right now it is just an acceptable range on a color chart to me. :)

I will have to discuss the Clorox with the wife. I have never witnessed one of her reactions to it, I just know that since we have been married I have been forbidden from using it in the laundry. No...I did not destroy something of her's prior to that by using bleach. :)

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Just a question relating to the Nature2 cartridge's installation.. and sorry if this is slightly off-topic but i didn't want to really start a new thread just for thiis <probably dumb> question.

Anyway... I have an LA spa with the three aquacleen filter heads and was wondering where I need to place the nature2 catridge -At the moment I have it in the filter head that runs the 24/7 ozone circulation - is this correct?? I just leave it sitting in the bag.

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Just a question relating to the Nature2 cartridge's installation.. and sorry if this is slightly off-topic but i didn't want to really start a new thread just for thiis <probably dumb> question.

Anyway... I have an LA spa with the three aquacleen filter heads and was wondering where I need to place the nature2 catridge -At the moment I have it in the filter head that runs the 24/7 ozone circulation - is this correct?? I just leave it sitting in the bag.

Yes, I would leave it in the filter for the 24 hour circ. pump.

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Richard,

We sell a lot of Nature2 and are big proponents of it, but I completely agree with your assessment. They got the EPA on board with a system that technically follows the rules but isn't as good as the old recipe of dosing with chlorine and shocking with MPS. We still push the old system. It's easier to understand, especially for previous chlorine only users since you are basically adding the N2 stick and using less chlorine.

The problem with the old recipe becomes apparent when you calculate the ppm FC that is introduced into the sytem. The old recipe is a very low chlorine system and it does NOT provide santized water. The new recipe, as Richard points out, is actually maintaining norma FC levels that would be used if there were no N2 installed. Read the small print wherer they say that dichlor can be substituted for the MPS and calculate that the FC levels would be in the water! You will find that it becomes just normal chlorine spa maintenance. I wonder if this is due to the legislation that Australia passed requiring copper/silver and silver/zinc systems to be used with normal and not reduced FC levels?

I posted a comparison of the old and new recipes when they changed it in 2006 on this board and on Poolforum.com. I will try to find the link to it but I don't really have the time to search now.

We sell N2 also (We sell the entire Zodiac line--N2, Duoclear SWG/N2 combo--JUNK, IMHO!!!!!!!, Clearwater SWGs, Baracuda and Polaris pool cleaners) but I do not recommend it or push it. Sure it's a great profit maker, people have to buy the refills every 4 months for spas and every 4-5 months for pools, depending on the model and they are NOT cheap but IMHO, it's an unnecessary expense. I do tell all my customers that use N2 to maintain a 2 ppm residual FC level in their water, however.

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I would think it's a waste of money for anyone to use N2 and maintain a FC level of 2. Heck, most people without N2 don't maintain a residual that high. Since the manual says to maintain a FC level of .5 with mps dosing, that is exactly what I do, even though I dose with chlorine. I'm allergic to MPS, so that's out. There instructions of dosing with 1 tbs. of dichlor after soaking is the same dose someone would use without the N2. It's such a litigious world, that companies really have to cover their behinds. Since you are somewhat responsible for your customer's well-being, you have to be conservative. For my own use, I'm just applying common sense. No way am I adding as much chlorine or even more than I normally would, while using N2. I dose with chlorine after soaking for a quick kill and then set my filter to run in 6 hour cycles with the N2 cartridge housed inside. From what I've read, silver should be able to kill anything left during this time frame. I have my ozonator to oxidize organics, since I don't use the MPS. Well, that's enough for now, I have this awful rash that won't go away and it really itches. :D

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2 ppm is about half the amount of FC normally recommened for a spa so the use of silver/zince from the N2 spa cart allows you to maintain the FC at about half the normal levels. This is based on recent research on CT times for certain pathogens and is quite a bit higher than the .5 ppm FC formerly suggested. However, .5 ppm FC is still what Zodiac is suggesting for the copper/siver N2 swimming pool units.

BTW, I happen to maintain my own spa at about 4 ppm FC and sometimes up to 6 ppm.

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  • 2 weeks later...
2 ppm is about half the amount of FC normally recommened for a spa so the use of silver/zince from the N2 spa cart allows you to maintain the FC at about half the normal levels. This is based on recent research on CT times for certain pathogens and is quite a bit higher than the .5 ppm FC formerly suggested. However, .5 ppm FC is still what Zodiac is suggesting for the copper/siver N2 swimming pool units.

BTW, I happen to maintain my own spa at about 4 ppm FC and sometimes up to 6 ppm.

I was thinking about getting a mineral tube like N2 or frog to put inside the filter cartridge, but I wondered if it would impede the filtration process since the water is being sucked down the hole in the middle of the filter.

Rebecca

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BTW, I happen to maintain my own spa at about 4 ppm FC and sometimes up to 6 ppm.

I was thinking about getting a mineral tube like N2 or frog to put inside the filter cartridge, but I wondered if it would impede the filtration process since the water is being sucked down the hole in the middle of the filter.

Rebecca

I just called Marquis and they said not to worry about putting something in the filter cartridge, so never mind.

Rebecca

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When I opened the mineral cartridge package there were little bits of grit falling out of it, so I put it in the cage on top of the filter instead of inside the filter where it could be mainlined right into the pump.

When I used a mineral cartridge I always placed it on top of the filter. It will work just as well there.

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  • 3 years later...

Years ago, my wife and I had a 8ft redwood hot tub, and we used chlorine as a sanitizer. We didn't care for the smell, but we didn't have problems either. A couple years ago, we bought a 8 ft modern spa, and the maker suggested bromine. We did not like the bromine smell, but worse, it caused itchy skin on my wife, and I developed eczema. I came across a mention of the Nature2 system on the web, and did not find any negative comments, and in fact, most reviews I read praised it as the next best thing since sliced bread. Okay, I bought four cartridges, 2lb of the Cense product, some test strips and a bucket of dichlor. I drained the tub, filled it up again halfway, and drained it again to eliminate as much of the bromine as possible. When I tested for bromine after filling it back full, it showed zero, and I added a new filter. I set up the Nature2 as per the instructions. Our spa is indoors, in a spa room attached to our house. Being cold at night, I was keeping the 2ft x 8ft window shutters closed. We normally keep the spa covered. The spa has an ozonator from the factory. When the spa was ready, I tried it out. There was no bromine smell, but contrary to what Zodiac claims about their product, we were getting what I can best describe as a metallic-ozone gas that was strongest when the pumps were on full blast. This gas caused extreme coughing, where I felt like I was going to cough up a lung, and sinuses that ran like a water faucet. After recovering from this, I next tried opening up one of the 2x8 windows for ventilation, and left the cover off, and ran the pumps at full blast to try to vent off these gases for several hours before getting in. That helped some, but still the gas became overpowering. I spoke to a spa-expert, who suggested that I try disconnecting the ozonator. I had already been thinking along those lines, and did so, along with venting the uncovered spa again. Again, the gas persisted. At this point, I am convinced that the Nature2 cartridge is to blame. I noticed that Silver Nitrate is listed as the active ingredient, and after some research discovered that it is toxic to mucous tissue, as well as skin and eyes. I Googled "Nature2 Respiratory Problems", and found a Material Product Safety Sheet produced by Zodiac as required by federal law. Reading that, they list silver, copper and aluminum as the hazardous ingredients. Further reading of that same sheet, mentions the health problems associated with these chemicals, the first aid required, and the need for respirators, etc. I notice they don't mention any of this stuff in their marketing, only that you are not supposed to ingest it. Between that sheet, and the noxious gas problem we are having, I am 100% convinced that this product is nothing close to the safe alternative they make it out to be. I have removed the Nature2 cartridge, and will now go back to either dichlor or bromine. Has anyone else experienced this gas problem, or did I just get a bad batch of Nature2? Compared to this, chlorine was a dream.

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I'm sorry you had such problems with Nature2. The MSDS refers to toxicity and respiratory issues with respect to dry dust of concentrated product, not of having the metal ions in the water. The silver metal gets oxidized by an oxidizer (chlorine initially, MPS later on if you use it) and becomes silver ions in the water. The same is true for the zinc metal which becomes zinc ions. The aluminum oxide is the same substance you find on the surface of aluminum exposed to air and does not dissolve in water, but I've never seen any reports of Nature2 itself causing the problems you describe.

If this is a new tub and you didn't decontaminate it, then I suspect that the problem has more to do with biofilm formation. New spas are wet tested, but are generally not thoroughly dried so biofilms can form in the pipes and there is also other material (greases) leftover from manufacturing. Of course, if you remove the Nature2 cartridge (before you decontaminate) and the problem goes away, then perhaps you are sensitive to the low quantity of metal ions.

Also remember that Nature2 by itself does not sanitize nor oxidize bather waste. At a minimum, you need to use MPS with it in the "low chlorine recipe" or use chlorine with it. Of course, if you use chlorine, then Nature2 isn't providing much extra value for its cost.

If you plan to use the spa every day or two, then you probably want to hook up the ozonator; otherwise, you may want to keep it disconnected. Either way, you can use chlorine to sanitize the spa, but if you don't use the spa regularly then this can be more cumbersome for maintenance since the chlorine won't last more than a few days (unlike bromine with tabs which can go about a week or so).

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I'm sorry you had such problems with Nature2. The MSDS refers to toxicity and respiratory issues with respect to dry dust of concentrated product, not of having the metal ions in the water. The silver metal gets oxidized by an oxidizer (chlorine initially, MPS later on if you use it) and becomes silver ions in the water. The same is true for the zinc metal which becomes zinc ions. The aluminum oxide is the same substance you find on the surface of aluminum exposed to air and does not dissolve in water, but I've never seen any reports of Nature2 itself causing the problems you describe.

If this is a new tub and you didn't decontaminate it, then I suspect that the problem has more to do with biofilm formation. New spas are wet tested, but are generally not thoroughly dried so biofilms can form in the pipes and there is also other material (greases) leftover from manufacturing. Of course, if you remove the Nature2 cartridge (before you decontaminate) and the problem goes away, then perhaps you are sensitive to the low quantity of metal ions.

Also remember that Nature2 by itself does not sanitize nor oxidize bather waste. At a minimum, you need to use MPS with it in the "low chlorine recipe" or use chlorine with it. Of course, if you use chlorine, then Nature2 isn't providing much extra value for its cost.

If you plan to use the spa every day or two, then you probably want to hook up the ozonator; otherwise, you may want to keep it disconnected. Either way, you can use chlorine to sanitize the spa, but if you don't use the spa regularly then this can be more cumbersome for maintenance since the chlorine won't last more than a few days (unlike bromine with tabs which can go about a week or so).

Thanks for your reply. We've owned a hot-tub/spa for over 20 years. The spa is 2 years old, and until recently had been treated with bromine. It is kept clean, used nearly daily by two adults with good hygiene (not bragging, just giving you an idea of it's normal usage). I made sure to eliminate the bromine by draining, refilling, draining, and changing filters so that no bromine showed on test strips (yes, I know they are not the most accurate method, but that is what I have on hand.). I followed Nature2's instructions to the letter. The metallic-ozone-like gas was totally unbearable to me and anyone else who entered the area. Ventilation did not eliminate the problem, just eased it some. The water itself was not bothersome to the skin, hair or eyes. It just gave off that noxious gas into the air that caused respiratory distress. The gas problem was worst when the water was the most turbulent at high speed. Unplugging the ozonator made no difference whatsoever. Removed the Nature2 cartridge, and went to a dichlor-only state. Two days later, and much venting the room to the four winds later, and I just now got out of the spa. No bad gas, no coughing up a lung, no running sinuses, just a very nice spa experience with a tolerable chlorine smell. Nature2 was 100% the problem. Since this is the one and only cartridge of it that I have tried, I cannot honestly say whether this is the way their product normally acts, or if I just got a bad example. I do know that the problem didn't exist before the cartridge, the problem arose when the cartridge was used according to directions, and when the cartridge was removed, the problem went away completely. I plan to return the unused Nature2 cartridges to the vendor, and will never try this product again.

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Wow. Well thanks for letting us know. I wonder if there was any residual bromine and that this is some sort of big problem with Nature2 since I know it doesn't work with bromine? At any rate, I'm glad you've now got things working well for you. As for what to do now, if you don't want to use bromine, you can use chlorine, but not just Dichlor-only but the Dichlor-then-bleach method that should let you have the spa water last about twice as long compared to Dichlor-only. You can read more about the Dichlor/bleach Method In A Nutshell, but I would strongly recommend having the TA be lower (not at 80 ppm, but as low as 50 ppm if needed to keep the pH from rising too much when using bleach) and to use 50 ppm Borates (either from Borax/acid or from boric acid such as from ProTeam® Gentle Spa).

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Wow. Well thanks for letting us know. I wonder if there was any residual bromine and that this is some sort of big problem with Nature2 since I know it doesn't work with bromine? At any rate, I'm glad you've now got things working well for you. As for what to do now, if you don't want to use bromine, you can use chlorine, but not just Dichlor-only but the Dichlor-then-bleach method that should let you have the spa water last about twice as long compared to Dichlor-only. You can read more about the Dichlor/bleach Method In A Nutshell, but I would strongly recommend having the TA be lower (not at 80 ppm, but as low as 50 ppm if needed to keep the pH from rising too much when using bleach) and to use 50 ppm Borates (either from Borax/acid or from boric acid such as from ProTeam® Gentle Spa).

If there was any bromine left, it had to be a minute amount. Nature2's directions simply state to drain the tub completely and refill to remove any bromine. If it were critical to eliminate any microscopic remnants of bromine, I would think that they would have been more emphatic about it. And if so, then that too is their fault for not saying so in their directions. I went one step further, and drained twice/changed filters to play it safe, and then tested to verify. I did see that dichlor/bleach recipe, and made a copy of it already to try. One question: It says unscented bleach; does that mean bleach with no flowery scent, or bleach with no chlorine scent? My wife does the shopping, and saw regular bleach, bleach with a floral scent, and a bleach touted as being for sensitive skin, but none that claimed to not have a chlorine scent. At the moment, I have the TA and the ph balanced out to acceptable levels according to the test strips. In our area, with the water we have, TA tends to stay at good levels fairly easily, but ph tends to run low. As a result, I have a large stockpile of ph+ and a small one of ph- in my chemical collection. That was the case using bromine, and was also the case when we used to use regular chlorine (pool type) in our old tub. I thank you for your help and suggestions!

Terry

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  • 3 months later...

Contemplating migrating from bromine and popping my N2 cherry, but want to ensure I'm doing it correctly and safely.

Before making the switch, I started googling around for gouge on the N2 system.

Jacuzzi has been pushing for this (according to my dealer) to preserve the spa hardware. That, coupled with remote location driving me to mail order got me looking into the N2 alternative.

Based on reading this website, it looks like I'm going to get some well informed advice that is grounded in scientific reason

I'm a phan of fysics, but normally only tolerate chemistry when home brewing (must be due to HS/College course experience). Looks like I'll be adding water chemistry to the repertoire.

I've had a new (unused floor model) 2009 Jacuzzi J480 since July 2011 (approx 500 gal).

I was issued the Riviera brand bromine-based spa chem kit with the tub.

Spa is configured with the factory Ozonator.

Spa is wired for 60A configuration, which allows full function even when both jet pumps are running.

Spa circulation is set for "standard" (not economy).

Spa remains covered when not in use.

The instructions I was given were to follow the startup instructions (on Brom-start, etc) and use Brom-Tabs sparingly since the Ozonator was designed to reduce overall chemical requirements.

My house has well water, which I just checked on the issued test strips (LoMotte Insta Test3) for Free Cl/Br, alk, and pH. My tap water is 7.2-7.6 pH and 80-120ppm Alk, per the color matching (with the associated accuracy). I have been using about 1 Riviera Brom-Tab (98% Bromocholor-5, 5-dimethylhdantoin, yielding 64.9% available Br and 29% available Cl) every other week and maintaining between 1.5 and 3 ppm Br, 80ish ppm Alk, and around 7.6 pH. I have been throwing in the 3/4 oz of Potassium Peroxymonosulfate (label calls it that vice monopersulfate) about once a month. I use the "metal control" (no formulation listed) every now and then. Bathing load is 1 or 2 people about 3 times per week. Spa is outdoors in Southern MD and normally has a resting temp of 96F unless I forget to turn it down, leaving it at 101-103 (depending on outdoor night temp 20s-40s). Either way, the pump seems to run quite a bit, so the water gets a lot of circulation when not in use.

The water is clear, doesn't smell, and seems to be OK. I don't see scale or corrosion on the stainless steel jet structures. Aside from the initial start-up, I haven't seen any yellow/brown stuff at the waterline. I haven't been sick since I've had the spa. Also, although a red-blooded America-jin, I turned Japanese a long time ago when it comes to spa use and insist my guests follow the primary cultural rule of furo/sento/onsen use: Shower before Soak in my sento. This has resulted in the filters and polishing bag being essentially clean. Everybody seems to enjoy the fact that the water feels and smells like water and not a chemical bath.

I just ran out of the Riviera Brom-Tabs, so I ordered some Leisure Time Brom-Tabs from Amazon and compared labels upon arrival (couldn't find formulation prior to order). The Leisure Time canister states it is 60% 1Br-3Cl-5, 5-dimethylhydantoin, 27%; 1,3 dicholoro-5, dimethylhydantoin; 10.6% 1,3 dichloro-5-ethyl-5-methylhydantoin; yielding 39.2% avail Br and 44.4% avail Cl. I'm no chemist, but those two formulations aren't even close. I was under the impression from the reading I have done that Bromine is preferred over Chlorine for hot water, due to it's chemical properties. It would appear that I'm going more toward Chlorine if I use the Leisure-Time Brom Tabs and will need to use them more frequently. This brought me to pursue the N2 solution.

I pulled the instructions out of the box and noted the continuous requirement for MPS or dichlor. I intend to drain, refill partially, cycle pumps, drain, and fill to ensure all bromine is out of the spa and the plumbing before I condition the water for N2 use. I've read the above posts and I'm wondering if setting up for N2 takes me to the full chlorine treatment I've seemed to avoid with the low bromine treatment I've been following for the last 6 months.

Initial questions:

What's changed in N2 ProClear and its associated instructions between 2008 and 2012?

Aside from potential skin irritation, does the amount of MPS in the N2 instructions result in the yellow slime (it is a sulfur compound) that I've heard spa people gripe about?

If I go with the dichlor option for oxidation, will the amount of dichlor result in the chlorine smell I've managed to avoid with the low-bro treatment?

Although I've ordered the N2 test strips to get an MPS reading, it appears from the above that I should really go to titration and get a Taylor kit.

i tried the links above, but they are dead. Some of the Amazon reviews state that the K-2006 kits are fulfilled by Amato Industries and end up being 2005s or 2000s.

Which titration kit(s) do I need for current N2 maintenance and where do I find them?

-Matthew

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Some misconceptions that I will try and clear up.

Contemplating migrating from bromine and popping my N2 cherry, but want to ensure I'm doing it correctly and safely.

Before making the switch, I started googling around for gouge on the N2 system.

Jacuzzi has been pushing for this (according to my dealer) to preserve the spa hardware. That, coupled with remote location driving me to mail order got me looking into the N2 alternative.

Based on reading this website, it looks like I'm going to get some well informed advice that is grounded in scientific reason

I'm a phan of fysics, but normally only tolerate chemistry when home brewing (must be due to HS/College course experience). Looks like I'll be adding water chemistry to the repertoire.

I've had a new (unused floor model) 2009 Jacuzzi J480 since July 2011 (approx 500 gal).

I was issued the Riviera brand bromine-based spa chem kit with the tub.

Spa is configured with the factory Ozonator.

Spa is wired for 60A configuration, which allows full function even when both jet pumps are running.

Spa circulation is set for "standard" (not economy).

Spa remains covered when not in use.

The instructions I was given were to follow the startup instructions (on Brom-start, etc) and use Brom-Tabs sparingly since the Ozonator was designed to reduce overall chemical requirements.

Not completely true. It can reduce the amount of oxidizer needed with a bromine spa and can reduce the amount of tabs required to maintain the bromine level BUT it does NOT allow you to run a lower than normal bromine level (should be 4-6 ppm in most cases) .

With chlorine it can acutally increase chlorine demand and usage since ozone destroys chlorine and vice versa. Good news is that most spa ozone units are UV and not CD and therefore do little other than act as a selling tool for unsuspecting buyers!

Ozone will help oxidize the bromide bank you created with the brom-start so less additional oxidizer (be it MPS or chlorine) is needed but you still need to maintain the SAME bromine level in the water! It just means that you can close the floater holding the tas down more since less of them will be needed to maintain the bromine.

My house has well water, which I just checked on the issued test strips (LoMotte Insta Test3) for Free Cl/Br, alk, and pH. My tap water is 7.2-7.6 pH and 80-120ppm Alk, per the color matching (with the associated accuracy). I have been using about 1 Riviera Brom-Tab (98% Bromocholor-5, 5-dimethylhdantoin, yielding 64.9% available Br and 29% available Cl) every other week and maintaining between 1.5 and 3 ppm Br, 80ish ppm Alk, and around 7.6 pH.

Strips are useless! If you have well water you might have iron or manganese. Do you have either brownish (iron) or greyish (manganese) stains in your sinks and toilets? If not you don't have a metal problem. If you do then you need to use a metal sequestrant weekly or fill the spa with softened water (ion exchange water softeners that are recharged with salt remove metals).

I have been throwing in the 3/4 oz of Potassium Peroxymonosulfate (label calls it that vice monopersulfate) about once a month. I use the "metal control" (no formulation listed) every now and then.

Do you have metals in your water? If not why are you wasting money on a metal sequestrant? If you have metals you need to add it weekly and not "now and then".

Bathing load is 1 or 2 people about 3 times per week. Spa is outdoors in Southern MD and normally has a resting temp of 96F unless I forget to turn it down, leaving it at 101-103 (depending on outdoor night temp 20s-40s). Either way, the pump seems to run quite a bit, so the water gets a lot of circulation when not in use.

The water is clear, doesn't smell, and seems to be OK. I don't see scale or corrosion on the stainless steel jet structures.

If your calcium is not high you will not see scale. If you don't let your pH drop too low you won;t have corrosion of metal.

Aside from the initial start-up, I haven't seen any yellow/brown stuff at the waterline. I haven't been sick since I've had the spa. Also, although a red-blooded America-jin, I turned Japanese a long time ago when it comes to spa use and insist my guests follow the primary cultural rule of furo/sento/onsen use: Shower before Soak in my sento. This has resulted in the filters and polishing bag being essentially clean. Everybody seems to enjoy the fact that the water feels and smells like water and not a chemical bath.

OK, MPS is an oxidizer that will convert the bromide ions in the water into bromine sanitizer. Chlorine does the same as does ozone. The tabs add bromide ions to replenish the bank, chlorine to oxidize the bromide into bromine, and also directly add hypobromous acid (bromine sanitizer) to the water. My personal choice of oxidizer is chlorine (bleach). If there is bromide ions present it will be reduced into chloride (salt) as it oxidizes the bromide into bromine sanitizer. This all takes place very fast so IF you have created your bromide bank then you can add chlorine and ti does not stay as chlorine. If you have not (a common mistake people make by just adding tabs in a floater without adding sodium bromide on filling) then you basically have a chlorine spa until enough of the tabs dissolve to create the bromide bank. This can take several weeks under normal conditions.

As far as shocking with the MPS monthly, with bromine I would shock every week or two depending on use (with an ozonator every 2 weeks is probably ok unless the tub gets very heavy use). You can use either MPS or chlorine, it makes no difference. Either will cause the bromine level to go high. Just keep the tub uncovered and cirulating until the bromine drops below 10 ppm. Be aware that MPS is an irritant and sensitizer and if often the culprit when people have reactions to bromine and N2 tubs (N2 depends on Silver ions and MPS in hot water to sanitize and ,while the tub can and often does have 0 ppm FC it must have an MPS residual in the water at all times for the water to be santized)

I just ran out of the Riviera Brom-Tabs, so I ordered some Leisure Time Brom-Tabs from Amazon and compared labels upon arrival (couldn't find formulation prior to order). The Leisure Time canister states it is 60% 1Br-3Cl-5, 5-dimethylhydantoin, 27%; 1,3 dicholoro-5, dimethylhydantoin; 10.6% 1,3 dichloro-5-ethyl-5-methylhydantoin; yielding 39.2% avail Br and 44.4% avail Cl. I'm no chemist, but those two formulations aren't even close. I was under the impression from the reading I have done that Bromine is preferred over Chlorine for hot water, due to it's chemical properties. It would appear that I'm going more toward Chlorine if I use the Leisure-Time Brom Tabs and will need to use them more frequently. This brought me to pursue the N2 solution.

Actually, the leisure time tabs are probably going to be better at maintaining the bromine level since they have more oxidizer (chlorine) available but in acutal practice they difference between them is going to be moot!

I pulled the instructions out of the box and noted the continuous requirement for MPS or dichlor. I intend to drain, refill partially, cycle pumps, drain, and fill to ensure all bromine is out of the spa and the plumbing before I condition the water for N2 use. I've read the above posts and I'm wondering if setting up for N2 takes me to the full chlorine treatment I've seemed to avoid with the low bromine treatment I've been following for the last 6 months.

Initial questions:

What's changed in N2 ProClear and its associated instructions between 2008 and 2012?

The early instructions were a low chlorine recipe (maintaining .5 ppm residual) that shocked with MPS weekly and did not provide fast enough kill times to provide sanitized water.

There were some issues with the EPA and labeling also and some countries banned their use as a santizer.

The new instructions use MPS and silver ions along with hot water as the sanitizer (MPS is catalysed by metals at elevated temperatues to become an effective fast acting residual sanitizer). Weekly or more often as needed shocking with chlorine is needed to oxidize organics and destroy biofilms. The current alternate instructions that doe not use MPS but use dichlor do not operate at reduced FC levels. You are running normal chlorine levels and the silver really is not doing much except draining your wallet!

Aside from potential skin irritation, does the amount of MPS in the N2 instructions result in the yellow slime (it is a sulfur compound) that I've heard spa people gripe about?

Yellow slime would be a biofilm from improperly santized water or mustard algae. It has nothing to do with sulfer. Continued use of MPS will cause sulfite and sulfates to build up in the water but since spa water is changed every 4 months it 's not a concern for acrylic or fiberglass spas. There is some evidence that sulfates are detrimental to plaster surfaces and if there is a SWCG sulfates can damage some salt cells.

If I go with the dichlor option for oxidation, will the amount of dichlor result in the chlorine smell I've managed to avoid with the low-bro treatment?

Misconception, a properly maintained chlorine system does not smell like 'chlorine'. If you smell chlorine you need to add more to get rid of chloramines.

You MUST use chlorine with N2 for weekly or as needed shocking and if you forgo the MPS and use dichlor instead you are running a plain chlorine spa and you are just wasting money on the N2.

Low bromine will not maintain santizied water. Period! Ozone will not let you run a lower bromine or chlorine level but can decrease the sanitizer demand (the amount you need to add to maintain the required level).

Ozone destroys chlorine and vice versa so ozone can acutally INCREASE chlorine demand and usage in tubs that do not have a vey heavy bioload!

Ozone ozidizes bromide into bromine so it can reduce santizer demand (amount of bromine tabs needed) to maintain the desired bromine level but IT DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO RUN A LOW BROMINE LEVEL AND EXPECT SANITIZED WATER!

Although I've ordered the N2 test strips to get an MPS reading, it appears from the above that I should really go to titration and get a Taylor kit.

i tried the links above, but they are dead. Some of the Amazon reviews state that the K-2006 kits are fulfilled by Amato Industries and end up being 2005s or 2000s.

Which titration kit(s) do I need for current N2 maintenance and where do I find them?

-Matthew

IF you decide to stick with 3 step bromine , which is less work, more forgiving of pH, and does not require daily attention get a Taylor K-2106 which uses FAS-DPD testing for bromine, pH with acid and base demand, TA, and Calcium Hardness

If you go to chlorine get a K-2006 which adds the test for CYA (stabilizer) that is needed when you use chloirine. It uses the FAS-DPD test for free chlorine (good chlorine) and combined chlorine (bad chlorine that smells like chlorine and is destroyed by adding more good chlorine--shocking) and can be used to test bromine by running the test and multiplying the free chlorine result by 2.25 to get a bromine reading.

If you go with N2 you also need to test MPS. This can be done with a Taylor k-2006 and the additional MPS reagent that you can order from Taylor. As an alternative. If you are only shocking with chlorine weekly you can just test for combined chlorine since MPS will test as combined chlorine and with N2 there normally is not a chlorine residual in the water so the combined chlorine reading is basically your MPS reading.

Hope this helps.

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