biasedhistorian Posted December 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 Wow... This turned into a bit more than a one month review of my hot tub. Thank you for the sugesstion on leaving it in standard mode...I will try that. I normally tub at 98 so would you suggest 94-95 or leaving it at 98? I still have to add some insulation and the weak spot on the Legacy as I see it is the corners which are not insulated. I am thinking of stuffing 4 commercial sized garbage bags with insulation and sticking them in the corners- that way the side vents are not blocked...have others found that that would make a large difference? Also I read the air vent tip...I am new at this so bear with me...are you saying close each of the 40 jets? BTW...it is snowing out nice and hard...looks like tonight will be our 1st hot tub in the snow night- WOOT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 Wow... This turned into a bit more than a one month review of my hot tub. Thank you for the sugesstion on leaving it in standard mode...I will try that. I normally tub at 98 so would you suggest 94-95 or leaving it at 98? I still have to add some insulation and the weak spot on the Legacy as I see it is the corners which are not insulated. I am thinking of stuffing 4 commercial sized garbage bags with insulation and sticking them in the corners- that way the side vents are not blocked...have others found that that would make a large difference? Also I read the air vent tip...I am new at this so bear with me...are you saying close each of the 40 jets? BTW...it is snowing out nice and hard...looks like tonight will be our 1st hot tub in the snow night- WOOT! The debate over standard versus econo is silly. It's all about energy in versus energy out and you problem is with the energy out. Go ahead and switch but what you need to do is improve on the insulation as many other Master owners have learned and noted on these sites. As far as the air jets, that is a good point. I've had this speech with people many times. When you exit your spa you want to turn off ALL the air controls to the jets. The reason is your spa is coming on twice per day for filtering (4+ hours) plus additional times to heat and if you leave the air controls on the spa will be drawing air into the water during these times which cools the water. The air is drawn from the semi-warm equipment compartment into the water but that air that was in the compartment is being replaced with air from outside. That can make a noticeable difference in your utility bill so you should heed that advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickJ Posted December 13, 2007 Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 Also I read the air vent tip...I am new at this so bear with me...are you saying close each of the 40 jets? No, don't close all your jets. Just turn off the air control dials that are on the top of the tub. (Usually around the control panel) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 I apologize. I was beginning to generalize with ways to cut costs. The legacy line does not have air controls and you certainly do not want to close all your jets before you get out.....there would be no point in your spa purging its lines if you did that, and movement is important with filtering cycles I still think you got a great spa....show me another one that compares which has a stereo, 2 pumps, a CD Ozone for that price....I would leave your temp gage at 98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 I still think you got a great spa....show me another one that compares which has a stereo, 2 pumps, a CD Ozone for that price....I would leave your temp gage at 98 In order to be a great spa it needs to be well insulated. I'd rather have a basic spa that is well insulated or pay more for a spa with those features that is well insulated. Other than quality of construction, insulating capability is probably the most important feature in a spa, far more important than stereos or ozonators (and I'm a big CD ozone fan as well). Hopefully the owner can add to the insulation in this spa and get the energy costs down to a reasonable amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biasedhistorian Posted December 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 I apologize. I was beginning to generalize with ways to cut costs. The legacy line does not have air controls and you certainly do not want to close all your jets before you get out.....there would be no point in your spa purging its lines if you did that, and movement is important with filtering cycles I still think you got a great spa....show me another one that compares which has a stereo, 2 pumps, a CD Ozone for that price....I would leave your temp gage at 98 Whew! Thought I was losing my mind- Ha! Spent a while looking all over for those air controls...he,he. I will try this in standard at 98. Do you see the same concern about no insulation on the corners? Has anyone tried the bag full of insulation and would it be effective just on the 4 corners? Thanks for the help... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 Whew! Thought I was losing my mind- Ha! Spent a while looking all over for those air controls...he,he. I will try this in standard at 98. Do you see the same concern about no insulation on the corners? Has anyone tried the bag full of insulation and would it be effective just on the 4 corners? Thanks for the help... No insulation at all there? That's crazy! Go to Home Depot and see what you options they have but the bags of insulation certainly will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireman Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 I just thought of this idea.. You could call some insulating companies and find out how much they would charge to show up with their truck and blow some more foam into your tub. I might check on that next summer myself even though I'm happy with my power bill. My tub has minimal insulation also(Viking) added some foil stuff to it. The inside has a light coat of blown foam but could use more. Also I'm not so sure your bill really went up that much? You really need to compare KW with someone who has a tub with about the same gallons ands sets it the same. If you use gas heat, gas dryer, gas range, gas water heater and your power bill doubles I could easily see that. And it sounds like your dealer is giving you excellent service! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 well thats great spatech, and thats whats right for you. Personally though I couldn't justify paying and extra 3000 dollars to get a little extra insulation, even an extra 1000 dollars, most entry level tubs have one pump, no Ozone, and very few jets...To me massage is important, if it wasn't I'd just jump in my bath tub which wasn't 5+ g's. His tub has 40 jets which is also unheard of in that price point At any rate it's what's right for you I'm not a service tech but if I was to add anything in the way of insulation I would add roxul...It will act as a fire stop as well as insulate. Polystyrene or Styrofoam products burn very quickly.. don't get the safe and sound stuff, you want R14 attic and wall insulation. wiremans suggestion is also a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickJ Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 On the corners of my Down East (Master Spa) I added some rigid foam (styrofoam) insulation. I had a couple of big square blocks that had been packaging material for something that I bought (I don't remember where they came from), and I cut it to fit in the corners. I would either get some styrofoam, or take that expanding foam gap sealer that they sell in a can at Home Depot, and use that. Spray it into a plastic bag, so it doesn't stick to the frame of the tub. Has anyone ever thought of using packing peanuts as insulation? I was wondering if I could put some bags of packing peanuts in the dead space inside the thermopane area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireman Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 That's a freaking good idea! Insulation traps air. That's it's job. I bet peanuts in bags would work really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biasedhistorian Posted December 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 That's a freaking good idea! Insulation traps air. That's it's job. I bet peanuts in bags would work really good. LOL! I was thinking the same thing yesterday...your talking about those white things used for packaging? The only reason I was leaning against that was if I fill the entire cavity then it may cause breathing issues? Right now there is a layer of foam underneath the shell and some 1/4 insulation wrap on the back of the four removable panels. The corners are empty and the tech that fixed the leak told me it was breathability...just not seeing a downside to plugging the corners as there will still be two vents in the panels for air. I was thinking that instead of plugging the corners, I could try taking large commercial sized garbage bags and stuffing them with insulation then sticking them in the corners- basically dividing the inside cavity into four smaller areas. I could also reinforce the insulation on the panels with that silver sheeting from the Depot. Just wondered if anyone tried the garbage bags and would it be more effective then just coveringt he corners? In terms of energy usage I have to assume the 1st bill was a bit higher than normal because the filter ran for several days during the repairs. My KWH doubled from October to November and everything but my washing machine is gas. I do realize that Master tends to use more energy and if I can get the bill for just the spa itself down to $50-60 that will be fine by me. As someone posted I think I got a lot of bang for the buck and insulation is cheap to install. On another note I just tried it out for the first time in the snow! yee haa...just have to work on the whole bikini girls thing Just have to remember to leave a broom out for the snowstorms because it was interesting getting the snow off of the cover so the lifter could lift it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireman Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 Breathing? What is it alive? LOL! I'm sure you don't need much air flow in the winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 well thats great spatech, and thats whats right for you. Personally though I couldn't justify paying and extra 3000 dollars to get a little extra insulation, even an extra 1000 dollars, most entry level tubs have one pump, no Ozone, and very few jets...To me massage is important, if it wasn't I'd just jump in my bath tub which wasn't 5+ g's. His tub has 40 jets which is also unheard of in that price point At any rate it's what's right for you I'm not a service tech but if I was to add anything in the way of insulation I would add roxul...It will act as a fire stop as well as insulate. Polystyrene or Styrofoam products burn very quickly.. don't get the safe and sound stuff, you want R14 attic and wall insulation. wiremans suggestion is also a thought You can get a similarly equipped spa without having to spend an additional $3k and have the bonus of it being well made with full insulation. The Roxul idea is good as many have used it to complete the insulation on their spas and been happy with the results. It still may not get it to the point of a full foam spa but it should stop a lot of the bleeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickJ Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 That's a freaking good idea! Insulation traps air. That's it's job. I bet peanuts in bags would work really good. LOL! I was thinking the same thing yesterday...your talking about those white things used for packaging? The only reason I was leaning against that was if I fill the entire cavity then it may cause breathing issues? I was thinking of filling 3/4 of the cavity. Don't put anything on the equipment side, just fill the other three sides. And put everything inside of plastic trash bags, so they could be removed easily for service. I may have to try it. There are always people giving away packing peanuts on craigslist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rel Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 well thats great spatech, and thats whats right for you. Personally though I couldn't justify paying and extra 3000 dollars to get a little extra insulation, even an extra 1000 dollars, most entry level tubs have one pump, no Ozone, and very few jets...To me massage is important, if it wasn't I'd just jump in my bath tub which wasn't 5+ g's. His tub has 40 jets which is also unheard of in that price point At any rate it's what's right for you I'm not a service tech but if I was to add anything in the way of insulation I would add roxul...It will act as a fire stop as well as insulate. Polystyrene or Styrofoam products burn very quickly.. don't get the safe and sound stuff, you want R14 attic and wall insulation. wiremans suggestion is also a thought It is possible to get a good spa around this price point. I just purchased (Cash Transaction saved me 2%) an 08 Marquis Euphoria for only $400 (plus tax) more than his master spa. Full foam, 2 motors, 57 jets, cd ozone, constantclean, stereo with mp3 jack and wireless remote that controls pumps also, waterfall, headrests, steps, cover, coverlift, delivery/setup, 1 Year of chemicals, and a good manufactures warranty. I'm not sure if Marquis is a better manufactuer than Master, but from reading this forum, it seems that it probably is. When I was shopping, it also seemed that I could get a Jacuzzi with similar features for just a little more. In the end, the marquis seemed like the best deal for a quality product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted December 15, 2007 Report Share Posted December 15, 2007 Well that’s great guys, but your price points must be dramatically different and or you are located in a different market, prices do change as per demographic, cost of warehousing etc etc. I have price shopped every dealer in my area and stringently research any product we carry, as do our owners who I have utmost faith in. I carry 2 lines with full foam insulation, and yes they have their benefits, but there are pros and cons to everything... What if you spring a leak in a full foam tub in the middle of winter? what happens to water when it freezes? It expands.... Without making this an entirely lengthy post the point is extreme damage can come from this and in the middle of winter, odds are you will be without a spa for a long while and may not even notice the leak for sometime... Without full foam there is room for the water to follow the path of least resistance and there is room for it to expand in the case of freezing... Again there are pros and cons to everything.... even winning the lottery....It's what’s right for you...I would just like to see a little less bashing and a little more technicalities when knocking other peoples products Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biasedhistorian Posted December 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2007 Well that’s great guys, but your price points must be dramatically different and or you are located in a different market, prices do change as per demographic, cost of warehousing etc etc. I have price shopped every dealer in my area and stringently research any product we carry, as do our owners who I have utmost faith in. I carry 2 lines with full foam insulation, and yes they have their benefits, but there are pros and cons to everything... What if you spring a leak in a full foam tub in the middle of winter? what happens to water when it freezes? It expands.... Without making this an entirely lengthy post the point is extreme damage can come from this and in the middle of winter, odds are you will be without a spa for a long while and may not even notice the leak for sometime... Without full foam there is room for the water to follow the path of least resistance and there is room for it to expand in the case of freezing... Again there are pros and cons to everything.... even winning the lottery....It's what’s right for you...I would just like to see a little less bashing and a little more technicalities when knocking other peoples products That is why I am/was hesitant to fill the entire cavity, but you all gave me plenty of good ideas to try. On another note I took the advice of leaving it in standard. I must say I was expecting to hear the pump a lot more but it has not happened. Only every few hours does it come on and then only for a little bit. Gives me hope that my temperature swings may have eaten up a lot of energy. I am very happy with my Master Spa. The dealer is local and very helpful. At the end of the day even if the energy bill is higher than I planned it won't take the joy out of tubbing in my Legacy. I can say that in the RI/Ma region the few units that I looked at were all at least $8800 and up at dealerships. If it was just about price than Sam's or Costco would have been the direction that I took. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted December 15, 2007 Report Share Posted December 15, 2007 I am very happy with my Master Spa. The dealer is local and very helpful. And that is very important. I'm not a big fan of Master but if you have a good local dealer that goes a very long way when issues arise or if you just need information/help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biasedhistorian Posted December 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2007 Insulation update; So I rolled up my sleeves today and put my plan into effect. I had six bags of peanut foams and two rolls of aluminum reflective insulation (two layers a aluminum with a 5/8 inch air pocket between the layers) that claims to have 97% radiant reflection. I opened up the sides of my Master Spa and pulled off the thin insulation lining the frame (it was one layer of aluminum and another layer of white plastic with a similar air gap between the layers). I poured the foam peanuts into large garbage bags a little at a time to maximize flexibility. I was able to fill most of the cavity in the four corners and the bottom half of two of the sides with peanuts. The peanuts are blocking one set of wall vents but I left the opposite side vents untouched (little nervous about blocking all the vents). Once I formed the peanut/bags into place I popped the original insulation back in place, then went right over that with the new insulation (so I would gues that doubled it?) and there was still enough room to get the panels back into place (tight though) and screwed everything back together. My only concern at this point would be a 2-3 hole in the bottom that the repairman cut out. Instead of taping it back into place it was left unsecured and I was able to see a few feet of concrete under the unit. I can't deal with it until I do a water change...question is...will I lose a lot of heat from the bottom through heat transfer loss in the concrete? Total cost to insulate was $40 and I still have some extra reflective insulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kreg Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Good to see you on here "voice!" I have been the "Master Spa Lone Ranger" for way too long now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL Parrothead Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I think it's cool that a lot of you Master owners love your product, but when you say you wouldn't even pay a thousand more for a different spa that's better insulated..... How many months of double the energy usage (and that's what the original poster said he had in kwh) does it take to make up a thousand dollars? Why not just buy the tub that doesn't need you to take it apart to make it right? Hey......c'est la vie! Enjoy your soaking! That's all that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104 Degrees Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I think it's cool that a lot of you Master owners love your product, but when you say you wouldn't even pay a thousand more for a different spa that's better insulated..... How many months of double the energy usage (and that's what the original poster said he had in kwh) does it take to make up a thousand dollars? Why not just buy the tub that doesn't need you to take it apart to make it right? Hey......c'est la vie! Enjoy your soaking! That's all that matters. Do you think Costcos New tub with Full Foam Will be better on electricity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL Parrothead Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Do you think Costcos New tub with Full Foam Will be better on electricity I would think it would have to be. It's made by CalSpa -- decent medium-grade tub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104 Degrees Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Do you think Costcos New tub with Full Foam Will be better on electricity I would think it would have to be. It's made by CalSpa -- decent medium-grade tub. It looks good at i think 4700 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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