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Softub water chem?
PNWpip posted a topic in Hot Tub Water ChemistryHi all. I’ve been reading the boards for about a month now with my new softub 220. We use it about 1-3 times a week. My dealer has a very hands off approach to water chemistry. (Add a cap of dichlor after every use, keep ph in range, everything else will sort itself out). After reading the boards, you could understand I’m suspect of the dealers advice. Softub warranty prevents any shocking and they do not recommend using any MPS as the low ph causes issues with the tub liner. We’re on the first fill still, started with dichlor and transitioned to using the frog@ease. Ph has required moderate effort to keep in range by adding here and decreasing there, but TA has been very difficult to keep up. It drops to 0 in 2 days. Stabilizer has been at zero since day 1, but the dealer said don’t worry about it. Is this normal? All the boards I’ve read talk about HOW to increase/decrease TA, but I’m not seeing anything saying how OFTEN people are adjusting for TA. If my TA is so volatile, I’m sure that’s affecting my PH. At this point I can’t imagine not testing daily because things get out of hand every other day. How do you all set up your ph/TA so you can only check weekly?
Hi, First off let me give you the specs and current water parameters. Clearwater 475 gal. With ozone & uv. 98° Typical user load is 4-5 days per week, 2 people, 1 hr. This is the first water fill and it has been running for approximately 3 months. Using Taylor K-2006 test kit Currently using a mineral stick in filter 1. I've been using 6% liquid bleach since my cya hit approx 35ppm. Ph6.8 CH 180 TA 60 FC 6 TC 1 I have had my TA @ 120+ for a while and have constantly Fought with pH rising to and above 8.0. Finally decided to read nitros bleach method and look up the acronyms that I did not know. Using muratic acid( lots of it) I have brought my TA down to the point where the PH settled at 6.8 . Boric acid is showing up tomorrow and I'll be adding 32oz (weight) to get a 50ppm boric load for buffering the low TA. I keep reading different things about mineral sticks, whether or not to use them and why. There seems to be a caveat to every situation. How long I can run the water before needing to drain and fill it? What are the indicators that I need to look for when it comes to water change? Water prices in my city are absolutely insane, so I'd love to limit water usage as much as possible. My CD has been insane, but my parameters have been all over the place so I'm not sure if it's the ozone or something else entirely. I've been adding around 3/4 cup of bleach after our nightly soak.By the next evening it's down to .5 ppm or less. Also, how often do I want to shock? I have non chlorine shock,or bleach available.. I really appreciate your time! -ToyCruiser
Difficulty balancing pH and TA in new hot tub
mxnonbinary posted a topic in Hot Tub Water ChemistryFor the past 3 days I have been trying to balance the pH and TA in my new Intex PureSpa. I have the impression that these need to be balanced before adding any other chemicals. I have done 24 tests in 3 days, and have made 23 adjustments, using only pH Down and Alkalinity Increaser. I am using up a lot of test solutions (in the Taylor test kit) and a lot of chemicals. I have added the pH Down and the Alkalinity Increaser separately, always running the cartridge filter pump and the jets. The jets shut off after 30 minutes, and at some point after that, I retest. I am pretty sure that I need to run the filtration pump after adding chemicals, but should I be running the jets afterward? Or should I be waiting longer to retest? I was trying to reach a pH of 7.6 and a TA of 60. The hot tub manual allows for a TA of 60 - 120 and a pH of 7.2 - 7.8. My untreated water had a pH of 7.8 and a TA of 120 - 130. During my adjustments, I have had TAs ranging from 0 to 80, and pHs ranging from a yellow color to over 8.0, but they are most often 7.8 - 8.0 or higher. Each adjustment of either of these throws the other one off. I am going away in 2 days for a period of 8 days. I may not have the chemistry balanced before I leave, and so I don't expect to be able to try out the hot tub until after I get back. I had planned to shock the hot tub before leaving. No sanitizer has been added, as of yet. I plan to use Dichlor. My last test showed a TA of 70 and a pH of 7.9. Any advice?
Calculating amount of pH for reducing TA
mrmodo posted a topic in Hot Tub Water ChemistryHi Everyone I've been reading the great guides on water care. I've been reading the one on reducing TA. I'm in a hard water area so always have a high TA reading. So with regards to step 2 on the TA guide. I'm using the sites http://poolcalculator.com/ and https://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html The TA part will work out how much I require to increase TA. But to reduce it am I doing this right by 1. Entering current TA value and Goal e.g 300ppm with a goal of 60ppm 2. Entering pH value and goal e.g 8.0 and 7.5 It then tells me I need 1.8oz of dry acid to reduce the TA down to 60ppm which I then can following the remaining steps of adding half and aerating for 30 mins, etc (Note - This is for a 350 gallon tub) Does this sound right? Thanks
what causes TA to go up?
wilson from texas in Alask posted a topic in Hot Tub Water ChemistryI did do a search but could not find this specific topic; sorry if this is a repeated question. (I suspect that it is). I did read the threads on decontamination. (which may be what I need) Simple version: 1) What can cause TA and PH to continue to go up, even after it is down to normal range? 2) Can it be a growth of bacteria? 3) What causes foaming to get worse 24 hours after the last use, when there was no foaming during the use itself? (again bacteria in water?) Chemical status: (based on digital direct read PH meter, test strips, and a digital meter for one of the hardnes readings at the local store, forgot which one) TA- 120 PH – 8.2 Calcium Hardness – 75 Total dissolved solids – 2-5 Running a bromine tablet floater (and crushed one tablet to start it) Have ozone generator. 330 gallon clear water spa Temp: 98 Water from well, but through a water softener and hose end filter. The longer description: I bought a used hot tub, that had been winterized by draining, no RV antifreeze used. There was some water in the spa low points that was not nice at all. One pool of it had scaled or changed the surface of the tub, but the other small pools caused no damage. After mopping up the water and drying the inside of the tub, I reconnected the pump lines which had been off all winter. On initial fill, there was a bit if a scum lines that formed and a lot of foaming. Tap water (from well) PH – 7.4 TA – 240 (of higher test strip very blue) Total Hardness (very low could be 0) Anti-foaming did not help, so added: - Enzyme - Shocked with trichlor - - PH down - Added some calcium to get total hardness up - Crushed on bromine tablet Over the next week the PH continued to go up to 8.5 in 12 hours. I used 1/3 of a bottle of ph down over the course of a week. I would get the PH down to 7.4 and the TA down below 120, but in 12 hours both would go up. I shocked with trichlor, added clarifier, and antifoaming, which controlled the foaming for a short time. Over the next week, TA and PH would go from 7.4 and a ta below 120, to 8.5 and TA high. I used up 1/3 of a bottle of ph down in 4 days and had to buy more….. The other odd thing is that at the end of the first use, there was a little foaming, and water not very clear. I shocked, and added more clarifier, and things were better. The next day I checked and PH was up, so I added PH down, and turned on jets, got foaming. I added antifoam. Second use (two people) PH again high, but no foaming and clear water. Next day PH up again, and foaming when I started the jets to distribute the PH down. The local spa shop, recommended that I super shock for a week, so sanitize the pool, take out the filters and run a jet clean, then drain and start over. HE wanted me to raise the chlorine for a week, then add the jet cleaner, let it sit a day then drain. After reading the decontamination thread, the recommendation seems to be to run the jet clean first, then drain, super shock for 24 hours, drain and refill then a chlorine use test. I got the since that this guy did not really know his stuff, and was just giving a standard answer, he gave me a sheet on super chlorinating the hot tub which was preprinted. He also said that the test kit using drops were a waste of time and not needed. He said that they were no more accurate than the strips. (Which leads me to believe that he really does not know his stuff) When we talked about bromine, he did not have a clue, and said that they do not recommend or sell it. I am willing to super shock it, if it will solve the problem, but I am not sure that it will help. I know that something is making foaming worse, after we get out, so maybe there is something that just needs a good sanitation. I am running a chlorine take up test now, and will see the results tomorrow.
Increase TA spikes my pH
Scott20165 posted a topic in Hot Tub Water ChemistryI have been struggling with this problem for awhile. All my reading this subject hasn't helped. 360 gallon hot tub. My TA drops so I tried to raise it. I'm using SpaGuard Spa Total Alkalinity. Every time I attempt to raise the TA, my pH spikes. Then I'm following up with several cycles of pH decreaser. A cycle being putting a small amount of pH decreaser in, running jets for 20 minutes then checking. Because my TA has increased, the pH is slow to come down. The basic question is, why does my pH spike when I increase TA? Thanks, Scott
Wondering why TA and CH dropped suddenly
Matt16060936 posted a topic in Hot Tub Water ChemistryHello, I'm a fairly new hot-tub owner, and have found tons of valuable resources on this forum. Now that I have a slightly complicated question, this was quickly my first-choice to seek guidance My tub is 425 gallons (Alps Spas Q-90), last cleaned and refilled on 1/22/17 (sodium bromide + floater + MPS), consistently tested with a Taylor K-2106 kit, and set to 102F. Problem is my measurements today have me really scratching my head. TA dropped, and my CH plummeted. I've been busy so the tub's only seeing 1 or 2 bather-hours a week lately. Here's the last few measurement entries in my logbook: 2/11/17: pH=7.3, TA=120, CH=100, SI=-0.3, TB=0.5 2/12/17: pH=7.6, TA=130, CH=100, SI=0.1, TB=5 2/16/17: pH=7.6, TA=130, CH=90, SI=0.1, TB=4.5 2/20/17: pH=7.4, TA=90, CH=40, SI=-0.7, TB=5 Should I be worried that CH and TA tanked? I know bromine is acidic, which can lower pH and TA over time, but I've never seen my calcium dive like that. Also, I did add Leisure Time "pH Balance" during this last refill, which says "Note: due to the unique buffering capacity of Leisure Time pH Balance, it is not necessary to adjust the calcium hardness level in your spa". Was that a mistake? Could it be interfering somehow? Thanks in advance!
Ph Low Ta High
Cooper772 posted a topic in Hot Tub Water ChemistrySo I have had my spa for a couple months now. I thought i had things going pretty well with my water but now I have the issue that my TA is at 120ppm, but PH is showing 6.8. If i use the spa up to get my PH in line will it not then raise TA to above what is recommended? (120ppm) We use the hot tub almost ever day and I have been using shock and chlorine after every soak. I'm considering just using more chlorine after each soak instead of it and shock, after being told that using that much shock could show up as CC when testing. Would the use of shock also effect PH but not TA? or the use of so much chlorine use from using the tub a lot effect the PH but not TA? What steps can I take to get PH back up without raising TA? I plan on doing a water change as soon as I can but its to cold here right now to do that. Thanks
Ta, Ph, Ch, And Borate Questions
Bchnit1 posted a topic in Hot Tub Water ChemistryHello all. Thanks for all the fantastic info on this forum. I've learned so much. I just bought my first spa, 500 gal Artesian Island and love it. Had it for 2 weeks and am researching chemistry and sanitation like a mad man to the point of obsession. The spa has an ozonater and the dealer set me up with an initial Spa Frog system. I've got 1 unused bromine cartridge and once it is done I'm dumping the Frog for bromine tabs in a floater (I've researche the 3 partbromine set up system). We have heavy use with teenage kids and friends and the low level of bromine was not keeping up with the bio load. With all the dichlor/bleach additions it makes no sense to spend the money on the Frog IMO. I initially was shocking with MPS and swithched to dichlor. After learning about the CYA I've swithched to bleach since the CYA levels should be more then sufficient now.. I have a good understanding of basic chem and the relationship between TA and pH as I also have a reef aquarium. I understand that borate helps buffer the pH by keeping the alk from dropping. I currently have the following parameters pH 8 TA 90 CH 250 I've got a Taylor K2106 ordered and have been using my neighbors pool test kit . Here are my concerns. 1-Pool calculator states TA should be 50-80. Manufacturer states TA should be 80-140. Is low TA going to affect the spa in any hardware way physically, or only the pH buffering? I have not added boric acid yet until I get the TA proper. 2- Adding boric acid should increase the TA without affecting pH, thereby increasing the buffering capacity, correct? If so I can see why lowering to 50 is ok as the borate will increase TA back up near manufacture's recommended. 3- In order to maintain a sufficient Calcium level TA needs to be at a certain level to be balanced (at least it does in my aquarium) and stop the precipitation of calcium carbonate. Given my Ca level do I need to worry about Ca falling out of solution if I drop the TA further? 4- Once TA is balanced how much borate do I add? I assume there is not much borate in city water. I will be using 20 Mule and muriatic acid. Thanks for any help and suggestions.
Hi, Been reading the forum a bit more now. The following question rose to my mind. Wouldn't testing these 4 parameters suffice (for my pool). My pool being plastic above ground, outdoors and no splashing, pH elevating fountains or such. CYA: test CYA to reach optimum level. pH: test the pH and correct pH with hydrochloric acid or sodium bicarbonate when necessary. FC: test FC and correct with bleach. TA: test and correct with sodium bicarbonate. The amounts of HCl, NaCO3, trichlor and bleach needed will be calculated with pool calculator. 'Correct' me if i'm wrong, Tim
Can't Seem To Get Ta To Come Down
nymtnbiker posted a topic in Hot Tub Water ChemistryBeen lurking here for a while as I have had concerns about a friend's spa that I delivered and wired in for him bout a year ago. I'm house sitting for them watching their dogs, chickens, cats ect, and wanted to do a fresh fill of water in his spa. To be blunt, he has never filled this thing up right and started with a bromine reserve, even after I have told him numerous times how simple it is. He usually would end up using tons of defoamer, and almost every time I'd be out here the water would test out at nearly 0ppm of bromine. His answer was throw a shock in it and call it good, and refill the water every 2 months or so when it would start to smell odd even after a shock. His wife finally agreed with me to pickup the stuff needed to set this up right, and she's ordering the Taylor K-2106 kit when they get back, so for now I have to rely on test strips. They are on well water, and I couldn't find a "spa stick" attachment locally, so I am pretty sure their water is quite high on the CH scale, unfortunately the strips I have don't measure the CH, but I have to believe it is pretty high. They do have a chlorine-filter injector system on their well, that injects a bit of chlorine water into the incoming stream and runs it thru a large blue filter unit, which I believe is there to reduce/remove sulfur and possibly iron, though again he never maintains that system either. I wonder how hard it really is to add a gallon of bleach to the 15gallons of water every 3 weeks, but obviously it's too much work for him. So I have that system setup right and I don't taste any chlorine or off flavors in their water, but even with that working I added 2.5oz of metal/anti scale stuff to the fresh fill of the spa. I spent 3 hours draining, cleaning, rinsing, and scrubbing the scale from the inside of the tub, and rinsing again (yeah they had scaly buildup from what they believed was a blocked filter, but I tried to explain it was their hard water, course I had no idea what I was talking about). Spa is 385 gallons, and I was following the bromine for beginners thread exactly except for the metal/anti-scale stuff and that I filled the tub from his hot water washing machine connection. He's got a great natural gas furnace that was giving 95F water to fill the tub all the way up to the "full level". I tested the TA and the PH after running the jets for 5 min just to make sure the water was mixed at an even temp, and that the metal/anti scale stuff was well mixed in. I got TA of over 360 (the highest the strips I have go), and a PH of 8-8.2. So following what I read I picked up 1qt of muriatic acid (31.45% 20 Baume), and hoped to bring the TA down to the reasonable 80-130ppm and the PH down to around 7.4 or so. I have now added 3oz of acid and ran the jets for 1 hour. I got TONS of foam, and not the kind that goes away when the jets are off, I tested the water, still had TA of 360+ and the PH was right at 8. Recalculated my desired TA and PH in the pool calc with 385g water, shooting for 80ppm TA and 7.2 PH, added 4oz of acid, and let the spa run for 10 min, then did a test. The ph dropped to about 7.6 and the TA might have come down to 240ppm, but it was hard to tell for sure. I really wish i had the drops kit. Tested an hour later with running all the jets and the PH was back up a bit at 7.8, and the TA appeared to be at 360 again. 4 more oz of acid, and this time the PH dropped down to 7.2 after about 5 min of running, but the TA still seemed to be really high. Still getting some good amounts of foam, but I am hoping that once the water is balanced a bit and I shock it, that won't be an issue. Spa setup introduces ALOT of aeration to the water so I am pretty sure that part of the TA thing is on track. Got another 20 min of running before I test the TA and PH again, but at this point I am concerned that I may be getting nowhere with fighting the TA, and that I am gonna need a lot more acid and time to get the TA down. I really want to use this thing as it's been killing me having it sit there and not jumping in for the past few days. My friend is due back in a few days and I wanted to have the perfect spa water setup before they got home. Anything I am doing wrong or obsessing over?