nmiller0113

Hmmm...I've not used the performance bleach so I'm not sure whether it has any additives that could be causing your problem. Personally I've been using this for years without issue: https://www.target.com/p/clorox-disinfecting-bleach-regular-121oz/-/A-77787193#lnk=sametab

We have about the same setup and I'm not seeing this. Can you link the bleach you're using?

As usual @waterbear, you’re a great help! I ended up finding one that’s germicidal and generic from Lowe’s 121-fl oz Germicidal Bleach https://www.lowes.com/pd/Style-Selections-121-fl-oz-Germicidal-Bleach/50064623 it has no thickeners or detergents that I can find, and it’s unscented. The side says: Sodium Hypochlorite 6% Other Ingredients 94% Available Chlorine 6% i think that’s exactly what I need. Thank you again and Happy Thanksgiving!

@waterbear I hate to bother, just wondering if you saw my question above. Thank you again for your help!

@waterbear first of all...thank you again for the previous advice you provided. My hot tub has been amazing! I was looking to get more bleach and the previous one I had been purchasing is no longer available. You had mentioned that you bought the cheaper brand so I was wondering if you had a link to that so I could order some? Thank you again and I hope all is well!

@waterbear, thank you again for your time and all of your feedback and advice. Since we last spoke I drained my hot tub, followed @Nitro's full cleanse instruction and then filled it back up and followed all of your instruction and @Nitro's Dichlor/Bleach in a nutshell method. For weeks I've now got perfectly clear and clean water that is amazing. My pH is at 7.6 and my TA is at 60 and everything is staying stable. I added 50ppm of borates and I'm sure that is helping as well. I now have my maintenance process working as it should and know how to measure and adjust as needed...properly. The family and I are loving it, and I couldn't have done it without your education...thank you so much!

Got it thanks! Good to know, I also saw your other response That makes more sense! I'll keep an eye on CC and determine how often I need to shock it, as a verb , raising FC to 12ppm. Based on the Taylor FAQ's it looks like 0 is ideal so I know my range (0 to .5) Found it, that will be very helpful! Thank you again @waterbearfor all of your guidance and insight! This has been a very educational conversation and now it's time to put it into action! I really cannot express how much better I feel just knowing more about how this all works! I'm glad I found this forum! Professionally I am an engineer so working in forums was right up my alley!

That's great info @waterbear, thank you again!

I most definitely am overthinking it, I've also not been using the Acid Demand test to get exact amounts and just basing it on the doses mentioned on the chemicals I've purchased. Maybe that's why I've been yoyo'ing. You mention lowering TA after getting to 7.6 pH to reach a target TA. What is the target, or would I not know that until I see how my pH behaves after some time and I find the sweet spot? What if my TA is 40 to 50 following the lowering of pH with Acid? Thank you, I ordered some boric acid from Duda Energy and also ordered some LaMotte borate test strips It doesn't seem like I need this then, thank you! Got it, I'll be sure to test for combined chlorine. Is there a calculator to determine how much bleach I'll need to add to move my combined chlorine below .5 and is there a too low number for this? I'm also a bit confused on maintaining 3-6 FC ppm vs shocking. I've been recommended to use standard pool chlorine vs. the Clorox 6% unscented bleach since it's hard to come by, but this is called shock right on the label...though they're recommending it in place of the bleach to maintain a 3-6 FC ppm...and in Nitro's other post the only difference I see in "shocking" is he mentions raising the ppm to 12 once a week. It seems like "shocking" has different meanings based on the post perspective. I'm hoping you can provide some clarity on this? Also, do you think the standard pool chlorine is the right choice as it seems to be a higher concentrate so I'd need to know what to select in the pool calculator. Maybe you use something different? Ok, great...I'll start with 4 and see how it goes. Thank you so much again @waterbear, far less questions this round and I feel like I'm finally starting to wrap my head around all of this...at least at a basic level.

Thank you @RDspaguy! I'm assuming that won't impact my CYA like a dichlor would, correct? Also, what do I select in the pool calculator effects to determine my needs? Thanks again!

Quick question, is this the Clorox that @Nitro was referring to?

@waterbear Happy New Year! I was just looking back to see if there were any updates to my last questions as I’m working on cleaning and refilling tomorrow to start from scratch. I didn’t know if you had seen my last response so I’m just checking to confirm. I assume though that you’ve probably seen it and just been too busy to respond since I asked a lot more questions. Either way, thank you again and I hope you’re new year is starting off well!

@waterbearThank you so much for the details I really really appreciate the education and all that I've learned here from your and others like @chem geek posts. Sorry for the delayed response, the holidays had me distracted. Yes, I read your post and was only confused because it's very clear on how to lower TA (and pH) incrementally and raise pH (independently) up through aeration, but my problem has never been with high TA. As you mentioned, I targeted a TA of 80 based on what I read in the Taylor Kit. I thought that was what I needed to be at, but as your post states, there is no way to independently raise TA without raising pH, only a way to raise pH without raising TA (aeration). So I was trying to accomplish the impossible in getting my TA ~80 when my starting point on a fresh refill without any aeration is a very high pH (above the measurable level with my kit) and about 180 TA. When I lower my TA to 80 my pH is ~8.0. To answer your question "How quickly does your pH rise above 7.8 if the TA is at 50 ppm or 60 ppm", it's immediate. Right now my TA is 40. If I raise it to 50 my pH immediately moves to somewhere over 7.8...I don't know the exact number as I'm using the Taylor Kit so I only have color shades, but it's definitely darker than 7.8. I'm curious if I'm missing something as you asking about how quickly pH rises above 7.8 makes me think you're stating that the pH shouldn't be above 7.8 to start when my TA is at 50 ppm. I can't even get my pH lower than 7.8 on a fresh fill of water, with nothing running or chemicals added, until I get my TA to 40...anything above that and my pH is still greater than 7.8. As for my pH stability overall, I don't think it is moving too quickly any direction and seems to stay fairly stable, even with the TA at 40. The parts from your response that I'm keying in on is pH stability and whatever achieves that sweet spot is where I want to keep my TA...as you say "Easy Peasy" So that's what I'll focus on rather than achieving the TA the Taylor Kit says I should be at, whatever achieves pH stability in the right pH range ~7.6. I hope I'm understanding that correctly, because I just wonder that if TA at 40 didn't provide any pH stability, then what would I do since I cannot raise TA any higher? I guess I could just go lower, since higher would exceed a pH of 7.8, but I'm mainly asking that last question to re-affirm whether I'm understanding your points. You mentioned adding 30-50ppm of borate, how often do you recommend I do that to maintain a certain borate ppm? Is there a way to measure that, or is it just based on use? CH seems to be good on a fresh fill so I'm happy not to have to mess with that at all. With that said, I've seen others post that mention using a filter on the hose for the initial fill. Do you suggest that or does this not really impact my problem areas at all? I'm assuming it doesn't so I won't get one unless you think it's a good idea and would provide some value. I'm going to follow the Dichlor/Bleach Method in a Nutshell post and do away with the use of N2 and MPS. I feel like it will do a better job of achieving and maintaining my sanitation goals. Though I've got some questions following his post as it says read links below, but there aren't any links that I could see. What should I target to maintain in FC? Is 3-6ppm correct? It says that in Nitro's other post, it also mentions shocking to 12ppm FC once a week but not in the Nutshell post. Is that no necessary? I read Nitro's CD post which, if I'm understanding it correctly, answers this question for me as it's really based on my use/needs...but if you've got any additional guidance I'm all ears. Nitro mentions using MPS for high bather loads to help chlorine. How much should I be adding? Nitro mentions checking CYA every 3 months. Is the goal to get it back to 30 ppm CYA every 3 months? Yes, this post has helped A LOT and cleared a lot of things up, but I'm sorry that it also made me ask more questions Regarding overall aeration, my final question is if I'm using the Dichlor/Bleach method, how long would you recommend running the filter system in total in a 24 hour period? Mine runs every 12 hours automatically and I can define how long it runs each time. I am currently running it for 3 hours every 12 hours (6 hours total/24 hour period) for more ozonator effectiveness, but can raise or lower per your suggestion. Thank you again for everything!

I just found this article from Nitro, sounds like it may be what I'm looking for, but please let me know if you have any additional comments or supplemented info for it @waterbear. I'm also still interested in getting some clarification on my previous responses to better understand why even on a brand new fresh fill of water I still can't get my TA any higher than 40 without exceeding a PH of 7.8. If I haven't added any MPS at that point, is my ozonator the cause of my PH raising to a point where I can't get my TA above 40? Do I need to remove my ozonator and just follow Nitro's guide? Thanks again in advance!

I believe I understand what you mean, I was only referring to "normal" based off of what is described in the Taylor test kit. I want to make sure I'm being clear on this, after I've drained and refilled my hot tub, before running anything or adding anything, including the N2 or any chemicals, my levels show around 180 TA and PH off the charts. Before I add any MPS or Dichlor, only running the jets to mix (ozone is on by default) I cannot get my PH under 7.8 unless my TA is 40 or less. If I were to get my TA up to 50 my PH has always increased over 7.8. I'm re-stating this because you had mentioned other factors impacting it like MPS impacting TA. So I'm not sure how to keep my PH within range with my TA raised to 50 or 60. I've never been able to get it below 7.8 if my TA is that high. Is there something in my process that I'm failing at? I'm happy to change anything I'm doing. I'm not sure I'm following this and it's likely just me misunderstanding. I'm not trying to lower my TA, I'm trying to lower my PH and keep my TA ~80. I understand that lowering PH impacts TA, but it doesn't seem I can ever get my PH below 7.8 without lowering my TA to 40 or less. As I mentioned above, I'm happy to change anything I'm doing. I based my process off a friends recommendation and some of my own reading. If you have posts on your recommendations on the best way to fill and maintain a hot tub, I'd be happy to read up...AND I'll start this whole this from scratch the right way...evening draining completely to start. I'd much rather do it exactly how you would. I don't need to be using the N2 or MPS. I'm no expert in this space and am all ears to following others guidance who know far more than I. I just want this to work and to be able to trust that 1) my family and I are safe to use this 2) I'm not damaging my hot tub and 3) I'm doing the way an expert would I appreciate all of your input @waterbear!

Thanks again @RDspaguy I've waited this long, I've got absolutely no problem waiting a bit longer for the knowledge of a subject matter expert

I also just changed the title to Normal PH / Low TA, as the original title I used High PH / Low TA was not accurate. I thought about it just now and my PH is in the normal / target range. It's just that my TA is low when I'm in this range.

Thanks @RDspaguy, but I'm not sure that I can achieve that. I was at 34 two days ago with a PH of 7.8, which I also confirmed with my local pool supplier tests against my own. Unless it's possible to make a small change that will only impact TA by 14 and not impact my PH of 7.8? I'm opening to any opinion

I've read several articles on this forum and they've all been very, very educational and helpful. Unfortunately none of them have helped me figure out why I cannot achieve PH/TA balance. The only reason I'm posting this is because I have a feeling that it's something specific to the details of my setup. Hopefully the following details will help someone provide me some guidance as I've only owned this hot tub since July and I'm at the point of giving up on achieving PH/TA balance! Let's set the baseline. This is a hot tub that was already installed at the house I purchased. It's a 350 gallon 2017 Marquis Hollywood Hot Tub. It seemed like it was in good condition when I got it, everything in tact and clean...still looked like new. It has a cover which is always on except when treating/testing or in use. This is what I did (in order) Drained it Cleaned it Replaced the filter (factory) Installed a new UltraPure Ozonator, EUV3, UV, 115v/230v Filled the tub to 4" below the rim as the hot tub instructions stated Initial test of the water showed TA ~180, PH off the chart, and CH 220 Tested using a Taylor K2005 Confirmed Taylor accuracy with my local pool store test Added PH Decreaser 1oz, circulated 30 mins and repeated as needed until I got my PH to ~7.4 Now my TA reads ~40 (It's low but I figured I'd see what happens after I performed the rest of the steps) Installed the Nature2 Spa Stick and followed it's instructions Added initial Dichlor shock Then use Oxy-Spa Non-chlorine Oxidizing Shock twice a week, or more, depending on usage Set the hot tub to 100 and it's always set there Set the filter to run twice a day for 3 hours at a time **I've done the above twice, with the exception of replacing the ozonator, just to make sure I didn't biff something the first time...since it was my first time As you can see, I'm not using Bromine or Chlorine, just the UltraPure Ozonator and the Nature 2 Spa Stick and my water seems to stay pretty clear for the most part. No strange odors or anything like that. I'm pretty sure that the Ozonator or Spa Stick don't have any influence on my initial balancing of the water as the Spa Stick isn't even in the tub yet when I start, but I thought I'd add ALL the details and see if there is something I'm just missing? I've never, ever, ever been able to get both the PH and TA in balance simultaneously. I read others posts online and see them get it right and I've got balance envy now....which in turn makes me even more frustrated I hope that someone can help me understand where I'm failing! Thank you all in advance and Happy Holidays! Nathan