MPurcell

I own a Coleman lazy-spa by Bestway. I use bromine as a sanitizer, but chlorine will work as well. I suggest that you do some reading and research so that you will understand how to care for your tub. You can start with the sticky threads in the Hot Tub Water Chemistry category, especially the topic "Dichlor/bleach Method In A Nutshell" if you want to use chlorine. You can also find additional information here. Leisure Time A Spa Bright and Clear is a sequesterant. It causes very small particles to clump up so that they can be caught by the filter. It is not normally needed unless there is a particular problem that needs to be solved. I would never put that product, or any sequesterant in my spa. Clorox Pool & Spa 60001CLX Small Pool 1-Inch Chlorinating Floater Tablets are Trichlor, which is a combination of chlorine and cyanuric acid (CYA). You can use it instead of Dichlor in the Dichlor/bleach Method. But you only use it until the CYA is up to about 30 ppm, then you use bleach after that until the next time you refill the pool. There are two things you need to do to manage your tub chemistry, balance and sanitation. Balance means keeping the pH in the appropriate range, usually between 7.2 and 7.8, with outside limits of 7.0 and 8.0. Also, keeping the total alkalinity at an appropriate level, and making sure you have enough calcium hardness. Sanitation means always keeping the chlorine level above a certain minimum, depending on the amount of CYA. For a CYA of 30 ppm, minimum free chlorine of 2 ppm and target free chlorine of 4-6 ppm. You need a good test kit. What you have now is not sufficient, and strips in general are not very reliable. The best recommended test kit is the Taylor K-2006-A. It is somewhat expensive, $50.00 to $75.00 or more depending on where you get it, and the best online price I have found is at Amato Industries. My wife and I use the spa every day, sometimes twice a day, so we keep the temperature up all the time. In my tub, I set the thermostat at 99 deg F and it fluctuates between 101 on the high side, and 96 on the low side. We soak in the evening at 100 or 101, and my wife uses it for under water exercises in the morning at 96 or 97. If you are going to go long periods between use, then letting the water cool down will not be a problem, as long as you keep the sanitizer level up at all times.

I think the well water will be okay. Iron is not a problem at 0.1 ppm (mg/L). Your test results do not show calcium hardness, so you should test for that yourself. If calcium hardness is too high, it makes the pool much more difficult to manage. The other concern would be whether you can draw 25,000 gallons out of the well without problems. I have sent you a private message with more information.

Yes to regular household bleach. Be sure you get straight bleach, not scented or non-splash, as those have additives that are not desirable. The standard nowadays is 8.25% bleach rather than 6%, and also be careful to get fresh bleach, as it tends to degrade over time. Many manufacturers put a code on the bottle that includes a 5 digit number with the year and number of days since the beginning of the year. For instance, if it says 17151, that would be May 31, 2017. I buy my bleach at Walmart. As far as initial setup is concerned, I'm not sure it is really critical, but I would balance the water first (pH, TA and CH), then add sanitizer, then heat.

Test strips do not actually measure total dissolved solids. They only measure one or a few of the dissolved solids in the water, probably mainly calcium carbonate or sodium chloride. I'm not really sure which or how many. I suppose they could be used as a general guide. TDS meters measure the conductivity of the water. The problem with that is that different dissolved solids have different current carrying capacity. The generally quoted guideline of 1500 ppm above initial ppm is probably meaningless. In a pool with a salt water chlorine generator, it is common to have 3200 - 3500 ppm of dissolved salt. That level of salt is not a problem. In fact, many people say the water feels better. So it appears to depend on which solids are dissolved in the water as to the problems caused.

There is no reliable home test for total dissolved solids (TDS). In the lab, you would accurately measure a sample of water, evaporate all the water, and weigh the residue with an accurate lab scale. So where your water is at with TDS is really a guess anyway. That being said, the rule of thumb usually given is when the TDS reaches 1500 ppm greater than the TDS ppm of a fresh fill. Some advocate frequent water changes. Others not. On the trouble free pools forum I have read experienced pool and spa owners who keep their water properly balanced and sanitized at all times say they may change water perhaps once a year. On the other hand, there was an article posted here by someone who advocates frequent changing of water which you might find interesting if you can find it.

Chlorine tablets, dichlor and trichlor, are bound with cyanuric acid (CYA), and CYA also binds active chlorine in solution. However CYA does not bind with bromine, and it would be best not to have CYA in a bromine tub. In tablet form, bromine is bound with a chemical called dimethylhydantoin. Bromine tabs are 1-Bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (BCDMH), containing both bromine and chlorine bound by the dimethylhydantoin. When the tablets dissolve in water, the chlorine activates the bromine into hypobromous acid, the active sanitizer, leaving only bromine in the water. The dimethylhydantoin binds some of the bromine in solution similarly to CYA with chlorine. In a bromine tub where no BCDMH tablets are used, referred to as the bromine two step method, you establish a bromine bank by adding sodium bromide to usually about 50 ppm. Then an oxidizer is used to convert the sodium bromide into hypobromous acid. The oxidizer can be either potassium peroxymonosulfate (MPS) or liquid chlorine (bleach). In this case there is no dimethylhydantoin in the water. In the bromine three step method, a bromine bank is established, oxidizer is used to convert the sodium bromide to active bromine, and the bromine tablets (BCDMH) are used in a floater to keep the bromine levels up when the tub is not in use for longer periods of time. It would be a good idea for you to understand the chemistry in a much more detailed way than this simplified explanation.

One thing I'd like to add to the equation. Heat dissipates chlorine. This is usually not much of an issue in a swimming pool or a chlorine spa, because there is also cyanuric acid (CYA) stabilizer in the water, and approximately 95% of the chlorine is bound to the stabilizer. In your situation, however, since you are using bleach, there is no stabilizer at all. Chlorine consumption doubles for each 13 deg F increase of temperature, so even with the cover on, a tub at 104 deg F will dissipate 4 times as much chlorine per day as a tub at 78 deg F, and 8 times as much chlorine as a tub at 65 deg F. You should take this into consideration when adding chlorine. The instability of chlorine with heat is one reason that hot tubs often use bromine. Chlorine in a hot tub with about 40 ppm of CYA is relatively temperature stable compared to one with no CYA.

No. It's not nearly acidic enough, and the organic component would be undesirable. First wait till you know if you even need to lower pH. Then if you do, just get some dry acid. With well water, my guess that you will need to raise pH if anything.

That test kit is certainly better than having no test kit. It is also better than test strips. The pH test should be fairly reliable. Since your are only keeping the water for three or four days, you will not need to test for total alkalinity. The main thing is keeping the pH in range. The chlorine test is based on orthotolidine, which is the least reliable of the drop tests for chlorine, as far as getting an accurate ppm of chlorine. But it is perfectly reliable as a test for the presence of chlorine. If you get any yellow color at all in the sample, then chlorine is present. If chlorine goes to 0, then the sample will remain clear. You can get a general idea of how much chlorine is present, but the color matching is difficult for some. A very good value, even if it is a little bit limited. A proper taylor test kit for chlorine would run you $60 to $100, but that would be overkill in your situation. Epsom salt should not be a problem. It will add magnesium hardness to the water which will reduce foaming similarly to calcium hardness. The presence of magnesium may cause the heater elements to deteriorate a little faster, but not sure if this is significant. I wouldn't use much more than about a pound of epsom salt for 180 gallons. Keep the free chlorine no lower than 1 or 2 ppm at all times. In a hot tub, low or no chlorine can result in a very rapid buildup of bacteria. Free chlorine really has very little smell and should not be irritating. When the chlorine interacts with bather wastes, it forms combined chlorine, and then the combined chlorine is oxidized by additional chlorine. It is the combined chlorine that causes the unpleasant smell that makes some commercial swimming pools so unpleasant. So just be sure to use enough chlorine to burn off the bather waste completely, and your wife should not be adversely affected. I'm serious about the bio film. Just read this. If you need to adjust pH higher, you can use regular baking soda from the grocery. If you need to adjust pH lower, you will need either dry acid or muriatic acid, which you will need to get from a pool/spa store or online supplier. You can use the pool calculator to determine how much to use.

Spa water should be balanced as well as sanitized. pH should be in the range of 7.2 to 7.8. 7.0 and 8.0 are usually considered the outside limits. You should first find out if your fill water falls in the recommended pH range. (My well water is about 6.8 pH and naturally soft, but I am in Georgia which is likely much different than Colorado.) With your plan, pH is the only balance issue I would be concerned with. For chlorine, you can use the Pool Calculator to determine the correct amount. For instance, 2 oz of 8.25% bleach will raise the chlorine level of 180 gallons from 0 to 7.4 ppm. The problem you will have with chlorine and no test kit is keeping the level up high enough to be safe, and at the same time not so high it is harsh. With no stabilizer in the water, the chlorine will dissipate quite rapidly from the UV component of sunlight. The high heat will also cause the chlorine to outgas and dissipate. Bather load will use the chlorine up rather quickly as well. If you allow the chlorine level to go down to 0, even for a few hours, you could have an unsafe condition in the water with bacteria. The best plan would be to add chlorine immediately after each period of soaking, enough to neutralize bather waste plus a little to keep the level up. Bather waste depends on temperature and time in the water. 1 person for 1 hour at 104 degrees uses the chlorine equivalent of about 3.5 oz of 8.25% bleach. The biggest problem you might have would be the buildup of bio film in the plumbing. It will be difficult, if not impossible to get the plumbing completely dry after emptying, so bio film can continue to build up between fills. Super-chlorinating before draining will not be enough to reduce the bio film, which is resistant. You should probably do some reading about the issue if you are not aware of it. The best product available to clean the plumbing is Ahh-some, which is a little pricey but can be used before draining.

Since yours is a used tub that is new to you, I would strongly recommend that you use Ahh-some to purge the plumbing and then refill and start over. You should not be experiencing the pH and TA problems that you write about, and I'm not sure of the cause, but if you wish to use bromine and use the two step or three step bromine method you should not have those problems. The guy who sell Ahh-some says that super chlorinating is not necessary. Just purge with Ahh-some, drain, clean the tub, and refill. From what I've read, there is no other product that comes close to the effectiveness of Ahh-some. You are right not to trust the information you receive from the pool store guy. The pool stores make their money by selling you expensive things (for instance, they will sell you baking soda for ten times what you would pay for it at the grocery store), and it's often exactly what you don't need. It's probably not even the guys fault, but the culture of the stores, which teaches him all sorts of things that are partially or blatantly false. If you want to manage your tub well, you should educate yourself by reading as much from the sticky posts and archives in this forum and in the Trouble Free Pool forum as you can. From your above posts, it sounds like you've been throwing things at your tub without understanding exactly what they do or what the consequences are. If you intend to use bromine in your tub, you should not be using trichlor. For the three step method, you basically need three things. 1) Sodium bromide added once for each time you fill the tub, to build a bromide bank, 2) an oxidizer, which can be either chlorine from standard household bleach, or non-chlorine shock, potassium peroxymonosulfate (MPS), and 3) bromine tablets (BCDMH) in a floater. To keep the water balanced and reduce the possibility of foaming you may need to increase the calcium hardness with calcium chloride, and adjust the pH and total alkalinity with baking soda, washing soda, or borax for increasing, and dry acid or muriatic acid for decreasing. The only items you will need to buy from the pool store or online supplier are sodium bromide, bromide tabs, MPS if you choose to use it, although bleach is less expensive and works just as well, calcium chloride and maybe acid. I have a bromine three step tub, and I use sodium bromide, 8.25% bleach from Walmart, and BCDMH tabs in a floater. I also use baking soda to raise pH and TA when needed, because bromine tabs are acidic and tend to bring the pH and TA down. I had to add calcium chloride because my well water for fill is very low in calcium, about 10 ppm. I also added borates to help stabilize the pH. But I never need acid because my pH and TA tend to go down slowly and never go up. Also, I would recommend you get a good test kit. For bromine, that would need to be the Taylor K-2106, or for chlorine the Taylor K-2006. This will include the FAS-DPD test for bromine (or chlorine). This is the only accurate way to keep track of your hot tub chemistry. Test strips, and less accurate drop tests such as DPD and orthotolodine, are not accurate enough. Once again, the pool store guy had the truth exactly reversed.

Sorry, that was just a typing error on my part. I have corrected it above. Replenish is Dichlor. Renew is MPS. In my opinion, it is best to broadcast the chemicals onto the surface of the water. If you put chemicals in the filter compartment, they will go through the plumbing and heater and pump at much higher concentrations, possibly causing damage to the equipment.

The bromine three step method is usually recommended in the context of a private spa where the owner has complete control over the process. Your situation is a little bit more complicated. That being said, the three step method calls for the oxidizer to be added after each soak in the proper amount. There is therefore no need for a weekly dose of oxidizer. If the water chemistry is kept up properly, the water will always be clear and safe, without the need for additional weekly treatments. During the winter when the spa was not being used, if your service person added MPS or some other oxidizer on a weekly basis, then the single tab in the floater was not the only thing keeping the bromine level up. You'd have to ask him. During the summer, if you fill the floater full, then you will need less oxidizer after each soak, and during periods of no bathers, the bromine level will most likely increase. Leisure time replenish is 15% dichlor and 85% other ingredients. They don't seem to publish what the other ingredients are, but basically, dichlor adds both chlorine and cyanuric acid to the water. In a bromine spa, the cyanuric acid would bind (buffer) some of the chlorine and prevent it from activating the bromine. the more you add, the more the cyanuric acid builds up, binding more chlorine. It seems to me it would be counterproductive. There are various causes for cloudy water. The most likely cause in your situation is excessive bather waste, body oils, cosmetics, soap, and other foreign substances that has not been neutralized with sanitizer or oxidizer. The other danger from excessive bather load is that the sanitizer level goes down below the safe level, maybe even to zero. In that case, the water can become unsafe very quickly, and the cloudy water can potentially be the first indication of an algae bloom. In your commercial situation you should be particularly careful not to let that happen. For bromine, some say the safe level is 4 to 6 ppm, some say 3 to 5 ppm. In my experience, I have found that even in my own very controlled situation - it's only me and my wife - that if I let the bromine stay around 3 to 5 ppm the water can get dull, or even cloudy. I have learned that at least in my own tub, I need to keep the bromine level higher than the usually recommended level of 4 to 6 ppm. We soak in the evening, I add oxidizer (I use bleach) after the soak, and then I test the following afternoon. I try to keep it so that the bromine is around 8 ppm plus or minus. This provides enough sanitizer to burn off any bather wastes, combined bromines, and other pollutants.

The person you spoke with is missing some points in her understanding of hot tub chemistry. First of all, bacteria is neither the only bather waste you are dealing with, nor even the major portion of it. It is, of course, very important to kill the bacteria, but there is much more that happens. Bathers perspire (the numbers usually cited are 3 pints per person per hour), sometimes leak urine, and also add cosmetics, sun tan lotions, deodorants, etc, all lumped under the heading of bather waste. All of these things need to be neutralized. Some, such as dead bacteria, are particulate solids, and should be filtered out by filters. Filters need to be cleaned regularly to remove this material and to function efficiently. Soluble solids remain in the water, and add to the total dissolved solids, which is one reason the water should be changed regularly. I think your person is wrong about the dead bacteria staying in the water. I believe that the majority, if not all of the dead bacteria is filtered out if you have good filters and keep them clean. In order for the water to stay clear, all bather waste needs to be neutralized by the active sanitizer or by the oxidizer, or both. With MPS oxidizer, which can neutralize bather waste directly, you probably get a dual effect. However, MPS tends to convert sodium bromide into active bromine (hydrobromous acid) at a much faster rate than it neutralizes bather waste directly, so the probability is that even if bather waste is fairly high, the majority of the MPS will result in active bromine, which will then neutralize the bather waste. In the bromine three step method, which you are using, the correct procedure is to have the floater set so that the bromine ppm will remain steady during the periods when there is no bather use of the tub. So for instance if you go a few days or a week without anyone renting the bromine will remain level. Then, after each time the tub is used, an amount of oxidizer should be added to exactly neutralize the bather waste, and this will depend on how many users, for how long, at what temperature, and a few other factors. In your situation, this amount is practically impossible to determine, is probably not the same every day, and you certainly can't expect your guests to figure it out. I think your idea is sound, though. The only question I have is how much to put in the containers for them to add every day. That should be determined on average usage, perhaps. I think it can best be determined by trial and error. To find out would require frequent testing which may not be practical in your situation. So, for example, if the starting bromine ppm is 6, and you have them put 2 tablespoons of MPS in after soaking, and then an hour or two later, or the next day, the bromine ppm is still 6, then you know the MPS effectively and exactly reduced the bather waste. If the ppm goes up then there was too much MPS and if the ppm goes down, then too little MPS. Hope this is a little helpful.

Frankly, if you read an article like this you most likely will not think you change the water too often. The general recommendation is every 3 to 4 months, depending on usage. The usual guideline cited is when the total dissolved solids (TDS) are 1,500 ppm greater than the beginning TDS. However, TDS is not easy to measure. My wife and I use our tub almost every day. We probably average about 1 person-hour total soaking time per day at 101 degrees in approx. 220 gallons. I'm going for 4 months for water change, but I keep the water well balanced and sanitized, so it is stays quite clear.

It sounds like you have some active organic matter eating up the bromine. Is the water still crystal clear, or is it a little bit cloudy? Your renew tabs are apparently the tablet form of MPS (Potasium Peroxymonosulfate) which will oxidize the sodium bromide into active bromine. You can also use regular laundry bleach to oxidize the sodium bromide into active bromine. It will give exactly the same end result. If the water is a little cloudy, you could take the bromine level up to 22.5 ppm. That's the bromine equivalent of 10 ppm chlorine, or basically shock level. Hold it there until the water is crystal clear again, and then let it come back down into normal range. You can use either the MPS or bleach to increase the bromine level. You don't need to buy extra shock products. The bleach is much more economical. Some other thoughts. You didn't mention your pH level. Are you keeping it in the proper range, between 7.2 and 7.8? Test strips are not always reliable. You could be running lower bromine levels than the strips indicate. The only way to reliably test for bromine is with the FAS-DPD test kit such as the Taylor K-2106. In the three step bromine method, rather than shock once per week, the best protocol is to add the correct amount of oxidizer after each use of the tub to neutralize bather waste. This depends on number of users, water temperature, and time in the water. For instance, my hot tub is about 220 gallons. When my wife and I spend 30 minutes in the water at 101F, I will add 1 oz of 8.25% bleach (or 2 teaspoons of MPS) after soaking and leave the cover off for a bit. The purpose of the floater is to keep the bromine level steady between soaks. It is recommended to change the water every 3 to 4 months, depending on use. The dissolved solids in the water eventually get too high. How old is the water in your tub now? Besides algae as an active organic material, there is also the possibility of bio-films in the plumbing. You should purge the plumbing with Ahh-some immediately before you drain and refill.

The ingredient listed for SpaGuard Total Alkalinity Increaser is Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate 100%. This is just another chemical name for Sodium Bicarbonate, or simple baking soda. Chemical formula is NaHCO3. This is the product always used to increase alkalinity, but it also increases pH, which is why your pH spikes. Incidentally, you can save yourself some money by buying Arm and Hammer baking soda when you run out of the TA Increaser. The benefit of having a higher alkalinity is to stabilize pH. You didn't say if you are using chlorine or bromine as a sanitizer, but if you are using bromine tabs in a floater, they are slightly acidic and will bring the pH and total alkalinity down. Also, if you use non-chlorine shock to oxidize bather waste (MPS) it will also bring the pH and total alkalinity down. I have found that in my spa, the pH tends to drift down over time, and this causes the total alkalinity to also decrease over time. So I use sodium bicarbonate to raise the pH, but I target the pH and not the total alkalinity. So, if I push the pH up to 7.8 with sodium bicarbonate which increases the TA as well, then the pH tends to drift down more slowly. On the other hand, if you find your pH rising, then you want to have a lower total alkalinity. The usual recommendation for a spa is a TA in the range of 50 to 80. I currently have TA about 110 in my spa, and the pH still tends to drift down slowly because of the bromine tabs in the floater.

I can help you with your water chemistry, but I will need more information than you have given so far. You should normally expect to change the water in a hot tub about once every 3 to 4 months, so 6 weeks would usually be too soon. That would depend on what you have put into the water up to this point. Sodium bisulfate, also known as dry acid, will reduce pH and Alkalinity. Sodium bicarbonate, also known as baking soda, will raise alkalinity, and also raise pH to a degree. So what you describe doing above would have reduced the pH as you brought the alkalinity down with sodium bisulfate, and then increased the alkalinity as you brought the pH up with the sodium bicarbonate. So what you experienced was expected behavior for those two products. You can use sodium carbonate, also known as washing soda, to raise pH without changing the alkalinity very much. Alternatively, you can use sodium tetraborate as in 20 mule team borax to raise pH without changing the alkalinity very much. You can't effectively balance your water without knowing accurately what you are doing. How are you testing the water? Do you have your own test kit, or are you using test strips, or are you relying on the pool store's testing? I strongly recommend doing your own testing with a good quality test kit, in order to get the results you really want. Are you using chlorine or bromine, and what sanitizing method are you using? What have you put into the water from fill up to this point? A description of your tub would also be helpful.

The FAS-DPD bromine test is a little time sensitive. If you let the dye powder sit in the sample water, it will get darker and take more drops to titrate to clear. If you are new to performing the test, you might get a result that is slightly higher than the actual reading. Once you get used to doing the test, you can use 10 ml of sample water so that 1 drop = 1.25 ppm. Put the R-0870 DPD powder into the sample while already swirling, and then while still swirling and as soon as possible after adding the powder, add the drops of R-0872 (FAS) reagent as quickly as is consistent with getting good drop size. I put the vial on a flat surface and swirl with my right hand while putting the drops in with my left hand. To make the testing process much easier you could purchase a Taylor Speed Stir. It will also make the TA and CH tests easier, and make your friends think you are a real chemistry geek. You can get the speed stir from Amato Industries for under $30.

It's probably not real critical because the water needs to be changed typically every 3 to 4 months anyway, but both MPS and your chlorine shock will add solids to the water. You didn't say which chlorine shock product you have, but if it is calcium hypochlorite, then it will add calcium hardness to the water as you use it. The other types of chlorine shock usually add cyanuric acid to the water which is irrelevant in a bromine tub, as far as I know. I'd say you're probably fine using them both up. Once they are gone, though, bleach is really the best oxidizer, and most economical.

Once you get the kit, it's a good idea to log your results and keep notes about when and what you add to the water so you can get a clear picture of your results.

Pool store testing is notoriously inaccurate. Your best bet is to purchase a good quality test kit and do the testing yourself. That's what I do. Your experience proves the veracity of this statement. If I were you, I wouldn't rely on pool store testing, or even use it at all. Pool stores stay in business by selling products, most of which you do not need, and some of which can cause serious problems in your spa. Calcium Hardness should not vary too much over time unless you are using a product with calcium in it, like calcium hypochlorite. But it wouldn't go up and down. Total alkalinity can drift slowly up and down as you adjust your pH up and down, but it wouldn't be radical differences. Oh, and test strip type testing is also rather inaccurate and unreliable. You need to invest in a good test kit with reagents, such as the Taylor K-2106 if you are using bromine, or the K-2006 if you are using chlorine.

It sounds like you do not have an adequate bromide bank in your tub. If you did not add sodium bromide to the tub when you filled it, then you should purchase a sodium bromide product, preferably 100% sodium bromide, and add about 2 oz for you approx. 400 gallon tub (1/2 oz per 100 gallons) to create a bromide bank of about 30 ppm. I don't know what Leslie's brand name is, but you should get a product such as "Brilliance Start up for Spas" which usually comes in a 2 oz packet, or something similar.

It sounds like you want the dichlor/bleach method sticky thread which is at the top of this forum. In order to use chlorine in a hot tub, you need CYA stabilizer in the water to prevent the heat from burning off the chlorine. But you don't want too much CYA; I believe the recommendation is to keep CYA around 30 ppm. That's why you use dichlor, which contains CYA, until you have the correct CYA level, then use bleach which does not add CYA. And that's why you need a CYA test in your test kit.

I started out with the Taylor K-1004 test kit which is similar to the K-1001. It has the same DPD test block color comparator, but also has total alkalinity and acid demand. While the color comparator is a little more accurate than the test strips, it is still not going to be accurate enough for you and also only goes up to 5 ppm chlorine. The K-1001 kit also lacks the other tests you need to keep your water chemistry in balance. Namely, total alkalinity, calcium hardness and CYA stabilizer. You should buy the K-2006 kit which has all the tests, and includes the FAS-DPD version of the chlorine test, which is a titration test that does not rely on subjective color comparison, and also is accurate up to 50 ppm. I later bought the FAS-DPD reagents and the Calcium Hardness reagents so I could keep my tub balanced, as the K-1004 wasn't good enough. Try here for the best mail order price on these kits.