Jump to content

dlleno

Members
  • Posts

    306
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    1

Everything posted by dlleno

  1. just a footnote to this from my experience. I too will shock first and start out "high" but I don't want to oxidize my guests or their swim suits, so when I say "high" I mean not higher than 4ppm. I measure FC throughout periods of high bather load and add dichlor (or bleach) in small amounts to keep up. I find that people appreciate my desire to keep things under control and seeing me with the Taylor kit generally inspires confidence.
  2. Is your hot tub new and you've never been successful with your water, or have you been sailing along just fine for a while and just now encountered the cloudy water problem for the first time?
  3. Just to add my experience in here -- on my own personal spa I had to purge it more than once to get all the bad guys (my spa was delivered contaminated with biofilms), but it was well worth the effort. follow the label directions for ahh-some but I'll offer a tip or two from my experimentation: 1. clean the filters outside of the hot tub in a separate solution of ahh-some + filter degreaser 2. if you get a lot of visible material release (lots of brownish or otherwise ugly deposits on the vessel walls) on the first purge, consider a second purge. After draining the first purge and wiping everything down, fill the tub again and dose again with ahh-some. you might be surprised at what you release on the 2nd purge. I was. 3. I dosed with chlorine to about 20 ppm or so during the purge, to insure that whatever ahh-some released would then be subject to the kill rate of CL in solution. Unless you are fighting crypto , a particularly nasty chlorine resistant parasite (diarrheal disease) this concentration should be sufficient. I"m only mentioning this because if you happen to go read up on purge recommendations you will see some crazy high chlorine concentrations, as high as 100ppm out there, which are based on the worst case scenario of either killing crypto, attenuating biofilms without dislodging them, or it may be just the accepted CDC standard. chem geek fill in the blanks here please. Anyway, just for sake of completeness here is the info ion Crypto, calling for 100pm CL concentration for over 2.5 hours to kill. https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/pdf/swimming/pools/hyperchlorination-to-kill-cryptosporidium.pdf 3. Anyway, when you are satisfied that you have a clean spa dosed with ahh-some, put the filters into their normal locations. If they release any new material into the dosed spa, wipe the walls with a microfiber cloth rinsed in a separate solution of ahh-some It took me two purges, and just for good measure I filled my spa up and purged a third time, which released no new material and I was thankful for that. then I put the filters back in (cleaned as above) and they released a bit more! finally, I had a squeaky clean spa, dosed with ahh-some, with filters installed and jets running, and releasing no new material. thats a clean spa.
  4. my city water supply tends to change from time to time, and does have some iron and even copper, depending (among other things) on which wells are active. I use a hose-end sediment filter and I can attest to the fact that when I don't use it, I take the risk that my water will be slightly brackish. So to be safe I follow this procedure: 1. always pre-filter with a at least good sediment filter. there are more elaborate filters for removing metals; you might consider researching these to decide if it's worth it for your situation. 2. during the fill itself, I add spaguard stain and scale control per label directions. This is additional forgiveness for metals and high pH. yea you need to accurately measure your bromine levels. However, the color of pure elemental bromine isn't a factor here -- you're producing hypobromous acid as the sanitizer. crazy high bromine levels aren't brown. my experience with brown-is colored water suggest three causes 1. metals 2. sediment in or a brackish fill water 3. contaminants that need to be purged
  5. +1 on the purge. the clearest signal of biofilms is that your sanitizer levels quickly go to zero. after the purge, follow the bromine plans listed here. I personally like adding the bromine bank up front and then using bleach (oxidizer) for the bromine conversion.
  6. This is just from my own experience (which means YMMV) but the only situations where I encountered a milky water situation is when my santizer level went to zero and the bad guys started growing. reading your description (chemicals all fine except for chlorine) means to me that chlorine wasn't fine. that means bad guys started to grow in your water and possibly in your plumbing. My suggestion here is to tell us about your purge process and we go from there. I can say from my experience that I nailed the milky water with an aggressive purge which included elevated CL levels.
  7. I rinse my wipe cloth in a separate solution of ahh-some. another suggestion is to prove that your filters are clean -- put them back into their install locations and run the jets with an ahh-some dosed water. wipe up the small amounts of material released, and rinse rag separately. when you get no more release then you know you have a clean spa.
  8. ahh-some is an extraordinarily effective purge product, which I have tested extensively. Did you put your filters into the vessel along with the ahh-some dosed water? the fact that you got no visible material release suggests that the spa is well maintained and that your startup process was effective at controlling the contaminants that were shipped with the spa from the factory.
  9. just a preference comment here, but I'm not a fan of tabs, so I'm a big fan of the 2-step method especially if you have an ozone generator, which will provide oxidation sufficient to generate a small amount of bromine in a well-maintained spa with no biofilms or other things that consume sanitizer (like a stray spider). I'm also a big fan of ahh-some as a much more effective purge product than seaklear. I've tested both
  10. its a good plan; I would only point out that in step 4 you won't have any chlorinated/bleach water to use, because you already neutralized it with peroxide. So save a 5 gal bucket before you neutralize, and use that for the wipe ("like with a cloth or something " lol). The other suggestion is to use ahh-some for the purge, as a few of us here have been following it's effectiveness, and I have personally tested it more than anyone, at least that I know of. So the ahh-some is highly recommended as a very effective purge product. I would only caution that if the spa i really messed up, even ahh-some won't finish the job on the first purge; I have personally experienced this and coached others through the process of multiple purges. But, by all means if you are committed to only one purge/drain, ahh-some is still your best chance of success, and yes the peroxide neutralizer trick works great. And the next time you drain, use ahh-some again, and keep using it on every drain.
  11. There are several approaches to a bromine spa, but all of them consist of two important elements 1. a bromide bank component, i.e. sodium bromide. by itself this won't do anything but add this salt to your water 2. an oxidizer that will oxidize the bromide salt into bromine sanitizer . one really popular oxidizer that does this is dichlor :-) bromine tablets are a compressed combination of these two. often sodium bromide and some chlorine preparation such as dichlor. when the puck dissolves, the chlorine oxidizes the available bromide in the tab, and you end up with some predictable amount of bromine sanitizer. initially (the first puck) you aren't likely to have enough sodium bromide for a fully bromine spa, so in this situation, the CL will oxidize what it can, producing some bromine, and leave some chlorine in the water as well. The bromine sanitizer turns back into bromide salts when used, waiting for the next dose of CL to oxidize it into bromine. As time goes on and you add more pucks, the bromide level in the spa will rise and so that the CL present in the puck will be all used to oxidize bromide to bromine. From then on, the amount of Bromine you make when adding oxidizer is determined by the amount of oxidizer (dichlor) you put in. MPS is a non chlorine oxidizer that is a good component of a healthy bromine spa maintenance plan, but its not absolutely necessary. the point of using MPS is to shock with something besides CL because the MPS itself, for a short time anyway, will act as an oxidizer to more than just the bromide. That aside, the MPS will oxidize available bromide and make bromine in the same way that CL will. So the short answer to your question is that yes you could just use bromine tabs and periodic use of MPS. you won't specifically look for "dichlor" in the store, because the tabs already have it (or some other CL preparation) in there. I'm a big fan of Br but not a fan of tabs, because (1) initially you don't have a bromine spa anyway, and (2) over time you add to much bromide salts). That doesn't mean it won't work an you won't be happy, but you can have a bromine spa on day 1 and extend the drain interval by managing the above two components yourself. For example, if you add enough bromide salts at your first fill, then you can add dichlor just like CL users do, only it will produce bromine. keep in mind that MPS will also make bromine, so if you shock with too much, you won't be getting in for a while :-)
  12. I'd go for it. Purge it well before using it, and you've got a good deal!
  13. I've taken the advice of chem geek with great success too, btw. big mistake to follow spa store and calculator rules and target TA for a saturation index of 0. In an acrylic spa, pH rise becomes more important than meeting the balance rules -- you can run with slightly "aggressive" water (index below zero) and the lower TA helps control pH rise. I've flirted with TA as low as 30ppm but you have to be very careful to measure often and avoid a precipitous drop in pH. remember too that adding acid drops both pH and TA. I've also taken the splendid advise here to lower TA on the initial fill: aerate to raise pH, then add acid to lower both. I've also tried to maintain pH without borates if you are switching to bleach....its tough. get the borates lol
  14. I see this is an old post,and I just came across it. I took a spa vacation (vacation from spas) for a few months and starting to get back into the swing of things. A big clue for me in your post is that there was a sudden change in manageability, including new conditions such as open sores, itching, etc. These are disturbing signs of bio contamination of some sort. you've got bad guys in your water. the remedy is to purge. I sound l like a broken record on this forum (for those who are too young to know what that expression really refers to, ask someone lol); get some ahh-some and purge those bad boys out of your spa! An ahh-some purge has saved many a spa, and yours can be saved too. Since you have obvious sighs of a bio contamination of some sort I would follow a decon process -- there are many reference to such in this forum -- read those with your eye on the use of ahh-some in addition to the traditional decon procedure. here are some thoughts, based on my own experience on my own spa and coaching others: 1. dose to 50pm CL and ahh-some. purge, follow the label directions for ahh-some. prepare a separate mixture of ahh-some and CL, and use that to wipe stuff down. I like to see CL on board during a decon because the ahh-some will release all kinds of bad boys and you need to insure a complete kill. Drain and fill again (no need to heat/balance this fill) 2. purge again with 50ppm CL and ahh-some, following label directions. If you don't see much new material released then you can skip the CL dose. Wipe the cover down again and hose things off while you drain. if this 2nd purge releases no new material, then you are done. otherwise keep going: 3. if the previous purge released anything, then drain, fill, and purge again with ahh-some 4. repeat (3) until you have a clean spa dosed with ahh-some. sometimes it can take several purges... one situation I was coaching required more than five. When you have a clean spa with filters installed, dosed with ahh-some and releasing no new material, then you are done purging. drain, rinse filters, hose everything down, and refill. your spa will act new again. my experience with contaminated spas is that the first purge usually does not get everything, and if you don't do a second purge you will have a false sense of security. ahh-some is ahh-some -- its the best stuff on the planet right now but bather waste and bio-"sludge" can hide really well. biofilms are nasty smart organisms that can hide and become chlorine resistant and give safe harbor to other bad guys. Don't be afraid to purge again and again until you get a sqeaky clean spa. Once you are running again, purge every time you drain. its relatively easy -- just dose right before you drain. this will release stuff you thought was never there, and prevents it from accumulating.
  15. there are a couple of options i am aware of to reduce CA levels 1. there is a bioGuard product known as "spa Sentry" which is a (phosphate i believe) pH buffer. A side effect of using this product is that it will precipitate CA out of the water. The resulting mess is considerable, but if that is your goal this is one way to achieve it. 2. Get a water softener for your home, and fill the spa with soft water or whatever proportion is required to meet your target.
  16. I'm old school CL or Br spa guy. not a fan of baqua or N2 due to cost and because I'm not a fan of over spending on chemicals. the old dichor-then-switch-to-bleach method works well, -- adapting this method to a bromine spa is trivial - I posted my method awhile back so its probably still lurking around this forum somewhere :-) I'm also a big fan of purging used spas. the first thing you should do after relocating the spa is purge with ahh-some
  17. just a couple of thoughts: no, you don't need to heat or balance the water before purging with ahh-some. in my experience, a contaminated spa may require more than one purge -- you don't know if you have a clean spa in this situation until you are running a dosed (with ahh-some) spa and there is no material release. make sure you purge your filters too. put them into the vessel just like the label directions say -- put them over PVC pipe or something to avoid damming up the water flow or otherwise compromising the natural circulation of water when all the jets are on. or mix up a separate bucket of ahh-some + filter degreaser. My philosophy on purging an unknown, used, or contaminated spa is that ahh-some is going to release a boat load of material, which can contain biofilms, and so I personally like to dose with 10-20ppm CL during the first purge, just to guarantee the kill. use bleach -- its cheep easy insurance. on the second purge the CL treatment is not so important. if you're worried about draining high CL water -- dose with peroxide to neutralize the CL. Also note that for used/stored/unknown or contaminated spas you SHOULD (in my experience) purge at least one more time with ahh-some, ,and you should keep purging until you obtain a clean spa dosed with ahh-some. Some I have coached through this process have required more than two purges. My personal spa (delivered with biofilm contamination new from the factory), required two purges. the third purge did not release any new material, save a small amount from filters which I had cleaned separately and which I wiped up with a microfiber cloth.
  18. I wouldn't switch to bleach with that low of a CYA especially if you have no borates on board. The purpose of switching to bleach is to avoid the continued accumulation of CYA as you add dichlor repeatedly over time -- so the switch to bleach itself is not about the fresh fill, its about using the spa until you have achieved <some value> of CYA, and THEN switching to bleach. One memory device you can use to accomplish this is to measure out the total amount of dichlor that will introduce <your target CYA> into your spa. that will be some volume which you can measure. set that volume aside, and use it until it is all gone - that will be the signal to switch to bleach. The purpose of borates is to provide pH buffering which will help avoid the pH rise that the switch to bleach would otherwise introduce. you can switch without borates on board, but watch out for the pH rise, and go back to dichlor if you need to. Consider delaying your switch to bleach for a longer period of time. I have experimented with switching to bleach without borates present. you can do it, but it is difficult to manage pH: 1. I found that you have to flirt with a very low TA (mine was at 30ppm) which itself is a risk. 2. I had to delay the switch to bleach until later (didn't measure it but guessing 75-100ppm) in order to control pH rise
  19. sounds like the air valve itself for that moto may be faulty, or something happened to the air line during the drain. just to be sure, check that the air valve handle itself has not come loose. You could take the moto cover off and inspect to see if the air line has come off, but in the end I suspect you'll have to contact a local HS dealer. my HS dealer has a good service dept that I trust, so thats why I would take that route. Hope you can find the same. That fact that it sat dry for a year also suggests that an air line could have cracked or become dislodged at first use. I'm just brainstorming here but consider that the air lines at the moto are under water and you just dried them out for a year. I have personally not repaired a moto, but my first step would be to see if the air line fell off of it. you don't see any evidence of that do you? if the airline came off at the moto you would see bubbles in the moto compartment.. My grandee is in storage now, so I guess I'll have to watch that myself.
  20. according to the pool calcluator, 32 oz of 8.25% bleach will get you to 53ppm FC in a 400 gal vessel. The bromine conversion is a "don't care" at this point (for a decon). http://poolcalculator.com make sure you purge with ahh-some during the 50ppm decon to insure that you release hidden contaminants/biofilms. wear gloves too!
  21. ok this is good! ... A few brown streaks and a few black flakes -- odds are you released biofilms and killed the responsible organisms with the combination of ahh-some's own capability and the FC in your water during the purge. This is just an opinion, but based on my own experiments, and the small (but verified nasty) amount of material you released, I would say none of the other purge products would have provided this benefit. Now that I have cleaned my bromine spa -- I find that the ozone generator oxidizes/produces bromine and its even easier for me to over-dose the spa, such that I have to wait a long time before I can get in! in your case -- you can accelerate the FC decay by exposing to sunlight, running jets and the ozone. I wouldn't enter the spa at 10ppm FC... Congratulations -- now you know how to obtain a clean spa, and how to use the FC decay test to see if you've got bad guys growing in your water.
  22. oh you can dose again cold. in my experiment I warmed up the water just to eliminate one more variable when comparing products, but no its not necessary to warm up the water again. you can also use a 75% dose 2nd time around. it will generate less foam.
  23. Yea that's not good. You've got bad guys in your water. BTW no harm in filling with softened water if the numbers are better... Just get some calcium hardness increaser See my post on my bromine plan... For the water balance and startup on edit: let the numbers be your guide re: filling with normal vs softened water. generally speaking I would not expect there to be a benefit -- for me, all it t does is raise pH a bit (in addition to removing CA). My fill water now is about TA=140, CA=80, pH=7.4, so I end up having to lower the TA with repeated cycles of "run jets to raise pH, then lower both pH and TA with dry acid". My softened water is TA=140, CA=0, pH=7.8, so that's just more work in any case, you clearly have something gobbling up your Chlorine, if you really want a clean spa, here's what you do:: 1. remove the N2 and throw it away (put a new one back in when you're done) 2. remove filters. soak them in a degreaser 3. dose to 50ppm FC and also Ahh-Some per label directions . this will probably open your eyes ... 4. drain, wipe down with a microfiber cloth and a separate 5 gal solution of ahh-some. hose her all down 5. fill again. dose to 20ppm FC and another dose of ahh-some 6. if the 2nd ahh-some dose released very little, continue. if the 2nd ahh-some dose released a lot, then go back to step 5. 7. When you have achieved a clean, ahh-some +CL dosed spa, wipe everything down, including the cover, with the water. 7. put your filters back into their normal positions -- make sure they are clean first 8. run the jets on low -- and watch what ahh-some releases from your filters. If the filters were clean before, only a little material will be released. keep the jets on, and wipe up the newly released material with a microfiber cloth, as it accumulates on the walls and in the filter compartment. This takes about 30 min and several wipe-rise cycles. rinse your rag in the 5 gal bucket of ah-some water. 9. you will now have the cleanest spa known to man. 10. drain and hose down again
  24. ok I should point out that 50ppm Calcium is not crazy hard by any definition, so by itself that it not a good motivation to use softened water, which will only move CA down closer to zero. But you're going to have to add CA anyway to achieve 130ppm so softened water won't be that much different. The real question is "will softened water be any better?" What are you soft (tap) water numbers? are they any more attractive than your hard (tap) water numbers? BTW you should be using a Taylor test kit for accuracy -- Note that if it really DID take TWO POUNDS of dry acid to bring pH down from 9 to 7.5, then you TA has to be like 800 Moreover, in your first post you said it took FOUR POUNDS of dry acid, and this implies that there is something seriously wrong here or you really have a small pool and not a spa lol -- how many gallons of water does your spa hold? I'd recommend you take water samples into a nearby spa store -- take both hard and softened tap water, and ask them to test, so you can at least compare with your current test methodology. It is really best to know the starting numbers before you start over. post the numbers here.
  25. yes -- I would say based on the "70% decay per 24 hours with ozone running" rule that your water is consuming sanitizer at a rate that suggests you have contaminants. I haven't experimented at 20ppm, and I'll let chem geek comment on the linearity of the decay curve---- but all of that aside, I do think the evidence is in favor of doing a purge 1. Ahh-some is available from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2/177-3025741-0841332?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ahh-some . I've been through more purges than carter has little liver pills, so feel free to post back here for additional help with that. 2. the only reason to fill with softened water is to avoid tap water that is seriously wacked out. what are your tap water numbers? (TA, CA, pH...)
×
×
  • Create New...