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dlleno

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Posts posted by dlleno

  1. I concur with the diagnosis of  biofilms, and the use of ahh-some.  

    Before the likes of "ahh-some", which really purges biofilms and other oils and crud from the pipes, the only tool we had in our toolbox to combat contamination was the 'decontamination' process.  There are many variants, but all the good ones involve very high levels of chlorine, from 50ppm to 100ppm over some controlled period of time.  These are tried and tested, there is lots of documentation on their use especially for commercial pools,etc.  

    The problem with  biofilms is that they are very hardy, self-colonizing self-regenerating organisms that can be chlorine resistant ,which means in some cases, no reasonable amount of chlorine exposure will kill them outright -- they have to be lifted from the pipe surfaces (scrubbed).  Many a decon procedure (including on my own spa) has failed miserably to eradicate these contaminants, which are effectively eliminated by the use of ahh-some (as directed) .  So after a number of experiments and trials I am no longer in favor of traditional decontamination when the problem statement is 'biofilms'.  note carefully I did not say decon procedures are no longer needed -- I'm saying that a full-on decon procedure isn't the right tool to rid the spa of biofilms lurking in the pipes -- thats the job of one or more purges using "ahh-some".  

    for more detail on biofilms and purging, please see my blog post here.  Note that this was my own personally-funded experiment during which I learned about biofilms and ahh-some.  

    Here are some other misc. comments I have on the discussion in this thread:

    1.  Seaklear is not an effective purge product, according to my experimentation (see above blog post).  it works "a little" but suffice to say if you have purged with Seakler (as I did) you should now purge with ahh-some (as I did) and you will release even more material (as I did!).    in some cases ,it takes more than one ahh-some purge to get the job done. 

    2.  The statement, "this [biofilms] does not happen if spa is maintained chemically with sanitizers."  is  not entirely true.   I have presented evidence in the above blog post that biofilms CAN GENERATE in the presence of chlorine.  

    3.  the recommendation to switch "to dichor instead of bromine" is confusing, inaccurate,  and not necessary.  my spa is bromine and I use dichlor  granules all the time as the oxidizer.  I also use regular bleach.  I recommend some reading on what bromine is, and how dichlor is used to oxidize sodium bromide into bromine.  I also recommend some reading on the "switch to bleach" method.  Most of the "I don't have good luck with bromine" comments usually originate from the bromine method itself, and/or dispenser, the use of tablets and floaters, etc.. The bromine method I use is very simple:  (1) add sodium bromide to establish the bank , and (2) use dichlor as the oxidizer util you have built up the correct amount of CYI, after which you switch to ordinary chlorine bleach. 

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  2. get a strong ozone generator, and use bromine.  unless there are biofilms present, or contaminants get in under the cover I have discovered that a bromine spa will never go to zero sanitizer level under no load.  in my own spa, the bromine level drops to something less than 1ppm over time, but never goes to zero.  the conditions that must be present in order for this to work are:

    1.  sufficient sodium bromide in the water

    2. a strong corona-discharge ozone generator.  my stock Hot Spring Grandee does just fine 🙂 

    3.  no biofilms present. 

    In fact, I find that if (1) and (2) are met, and under no load conditions your bromine level DOES go to zero - it means that biofilms are present.

  3. this is a pretty late reply but hopefully it may help someone.  whenever my notice my hot tub consuming sanitizer faster than normal ( I also have a bromine spa) I have found that this means there is an organic contaminant present.  you will see the term "biofilms" tossed about here and there, in this context, ,but  the bottom line is that something is eating your sanitizer -- this could be a stray spider or it could be a self-supporting colony of biofilms thay are living in your spa, attached to plumbing walls most likely.  Every single time I have had troubles maintaining sanitizer lever, I have cured the problem with a good "purge".  please search the forums here for my other posts and even links to my own blog where I comment extensively on this issue and test several purge products. One point that a great many dealers and some spa owners are simply allergic to, is the fact that a brand new spa can and very often DOES come shipped with contaminants already present.  I learned this the hard way -- brand new Hot Spring Grandee came with biofilms already growing.  Thus, for all new and especially previously-owned hot tubs it is imperative to perform a good "purge".  I had to purge mine more than once before things got better, but in the process I sure learned alot about biofilms...

     

    on edit:  the above is based on the assumption that your bromine test is accurate and that following the instructions to a TEE means you set up the bromine correctly.    There is another possibility here other than biofilms or something actually consuming your bromine -- your test may not be accurate.  I am not a fan of the test strips as they can be misleading.  most of the recommendations here, and one which I follow as well, is to get a reliable DPD based drop test such as the likes of Taylor. there is no substitute for accurate measurements, especially if there are confounding factors (for example, pH), and use of a non-chlorine shock like MPS.  Another implication of your post is that the bromine bank is not sufficient.  Personally I am not a fan of bromine pucks ( I use straight sodium bromide to establish the bank, and then use dichlor granules to oxidize), but it could be that if you are shocking with MPS  and you are using test strips, AND you don't have sufficient bromide bank (sodium bromide) that your sanitizer level is in fact not correct.  I apologize for the ramble here, but there is just not enough information for me to make an accurate diagnosis.  my recommendation is to obtain a Taylor 2106 test kit, so that you have an accurate test to begin with.  As for the probability that your bromine bank is no sufficient, the solution to that problem is not to "shock".  

  4. the fact that your chlorine level dropped to zero prior to your troubles does indicate a contaminant that is now living in your water. often times, folks will experience frustration with maintaining water balance before they experience sickness or rash, but either way the evidence imho really tells me that you need to purge.    I have written about this extensively here and in a little-known blog post where I tested several purge products. 

  5. your post implies that your TA is dropping and that you add a TA increaser to maintain 60-100ppm, in which case you are fighting yourself by raising pH with the TA increaser and then trying to reduce pH with a pH reducer.  you also mentioned that you raised CA to 250 which is also unecessary. 

     

    while I do check TA once in a while to make sure it does not drop below 40ppm, I have learned that TA is simply not a number to target -- pH is.  when you add pH decreaser (acid) this will lower TA and pH, but your target is pH, not TA.   if you resist the temptation to raise TA back up you may have a better time controlling pH.

     

    I'm assuming you have a portable/acrylic hot tub

  6. I used to be rather analytic about TDS -- I'd take water into the spa store and have it measured, and I've also tried to use my own electronic meter to perform an electrical conductivity test (which is how the expensive meters do it). In the end I abandoned the idea of using a  number to know when to drain.  I can tell when the water looses is sparkle -- its clean and healthy but has no sparkle. thats usually when i drain.  or when pH starts to get more difficult to manage. 

    If you want to use the TDS number,  I would suggest that you correlate your measurements with water appearance. and balance, effort.   the strips aren't that accurate, as a single measurement  but they would give you some value if,  over time , you got to know what your spa water does and the TDS measurements associated with those other factors.  then it would then be useful to know when you are approaching a drain interval and you could drain before guests come over, for example. 

  7. here are my suggestions to help keep this from recurring

    1.  100% 2nd the sanitizer demand test recommendation.   experimentation you will get to know your own spa but the rule of thumb is that for a chlorine spa and no ozone, you should see no more than  about 20% sanitizer decay over 24 hours and no bather load and the spa is covered.  over time you will then learn what an unusual sanitizer demand is on your own spa, as you factor in the effects of ozone and bromine.  i learned that with a strong ozone generator and with sufficient bromide salts in the water, the ozone generator will actually oxidize the salts and generate a small residual bromine level -- thats IF there is no load.  In such spa its actually difficult to recover from a high sanitizer dose or shock level dose because it takes so long for the level to decay down to usable levels!

    2.  I'm an advocate for purging with ahh-some on every drain, primarily  because its crazy simple, cheep, and easy.  just dose the tired water with ahh-some before you drain.  after you do this a few times, you will know, from observing the results, if you need to purge every drain or you might want to  purge every other drain.  I purge every time because i get an observable release (gunk) and I don't want that around.

     

    purging a spa is like backing up your computer: there are three kinds of users (1) those to back up (2) those who wish they had and (3) those who are blissfully unaware of the need.  I used to be in the latter category, until my brand new Hot Spring Grandee was shipped from the factory contaminated with biofilms, and I had sanitizer demand problems from day 1.  I documented my learning experience in great detail in a blog post if you are interested in a long read:

    http://boisediesel.com/blog/2016/7/spa-purge

  8. Just another suggestion.  Ahh some is good at breaking stuff up but rough agitated water helps all the more.  What I mean by that is create as much change  in the flow as possible.  Turn pumps on and off, soak 5 minutes then fire up the pumps  stuff like that.  Steady easy flow is not your friend.  Agitated changes in flow rate are good . 

  9. welcome Fultons to the forum;  there are a bunch of us here that are experienced with Ahh-some;  I have performed a number of experiments myself and from these experiments, and from coaching others, I have learned that for extensively contaminated spas it requires sometimes 15 or more purges with ahh-some, and I am not making this up.  biofilms are nasty dudes;  they adapt, they multiply, they stick to pipes and corners in the plumbing, and they make protective chlorine resistant covers for themselves, they hide in other oils and food supplies left over from skin oils and other bio mass materials in the water not trapped by the filter.  In the end, biofilms are very hard to remove, especially if they have been growing for some time.

    I've been through several thousand gallons of purges of water myself.... my encouragement to you is to just keep purging over and over.  your pipes and equipment are harboring these nasties, and since biofilms are very tenacious you have to keep after it.  don't give up!  there is no substitute for multiple ahh-some purges -- don't be tempted to use a different product, which will give the appearance of success when in reality it is leaving untouched biofilms in your spa. 

    keep persevering.  

  10. ozone does eat chlorine, so its hard to translate the various rules of thumb (for chlorine decay)  into something meaningful for hot tubs with ozone.  my inclination is that 50% decay rate you've got biofilms.  Purge with ahh-some (including the filters) more than once until you achieve an ahh-some dosed spa, with filters installed in their normal positions, and you get no new release of material.  thats the measure of success --   sometimes it takes only two drains to achieve this,  and sometimes many more. the point is you really don't know if your spa is clean with only one purge -- you have to prove that your spa is clean by dosing again  (and sometimes again) with ahh-some.  you will soon learn what an effective purge routine is for you, and you will get to the point where you don't have to do the "squeaky clean" test all the time.   

    Once you achieve the "squeaky clean spa" then you can establish the chlorine decay rate that is accurate for your spa.

  11. A TA of 90  is, by itself, perfectly fine, so what are you trying to achieve?   there's  nothing magic about the TA number itself if your water is balanced  or a slightly negative saturation index -- higher TA values of course will encourage pH drift, but if you don't have that problem why are you trying to reduce TA?  the more important goal is to maintain pH, and through experimentation you will find what TA values give you the best results. 

  12. I commend you and others like you for learning and not depending on the spa stores, who too often are trying to sell you something.  hot tubs are especially easy to contaminate with lotions, oils, detergents, etc.  and you may have to implement some techniques or even rules if you will, to keep things under control.  the other technique I have learned is to purge with ahh-some on EVERY drain until you get a feel for whether or not a purge is needed every time.  you will know :-) 

  13. If I read your post correctly RobinDz, you purged with ahh-some but the foam produced by ahh-some bothered you so you added a foam reducing agent?  it wasn't clear to me if you added this during the purge or after.  what I would point out here is that foam produced by ahh-some is a natural component of what makes ahh-some work -- its the surfactants that foam, so you shouldn't let foam bother you if it is produced by ahh-some during a purge.  it is what it is, and if you reduce the foam you may reduce the ahh-some's effectiveness.

    the other point I would make is that you got some bad advice I'm afraid to switch purge products.  if you purge with ahh-some and you still don't have a clean spa, the answer is not to switch products the answer is to keep purging with ahh-some!  if you're interested in my purge experience, and testing several products -- and learning that it can take several purges to be effective (especially on a 10 year old spa) you can read my experimental results in great detail here

    http://boisediesel.com/blog/2016/7/spa-purge

    FYI this is a hobby photography site -- i just took photos of my purge experience and documented the results. 

    one thing I have learned very clearly:  you don't have a clean spa until you have filled your spa, installed filters  into their normal positions, and dosed your new water with ahh-some and you see no new material released.  once you go through this exercise you will learn what it takes to achieve a clean spa - I have coached others through as many as 10 purges before success was achieved.

     

  14. I'm afraid I'm not good at identifying nasties, but its not clear to me from your description what exactly happened-- did this stuff appear after 2 days unattended or 7 hours after adding bleach and leaving the spa uncovered?    do you remember  how much bleach you put in , and what your chemistry numbers were just prior to this issue?  is the spa, including the heater, still operational?  leaving the spa uncovered (in the sun) would decay the chlorine level faster and the spa would be vulnerable to whatever could enter the water during your absence.

    my first instinct after seeing this would be to drain, rinse, and then purge.  restore water balance and sanitation if the spa is operational.  if the result in your photo is due to copper, then I doubt the heater still works at all!

     

  15. biofilm is  your enemy.  the only way to get rid of biofilm is an effective purge, and those of us who have experimented with purge products have all come to the same conclusion -- ahh-some is more effective than the others.    read the references listed above by chem geek -- I am the author.of those experiments and have documented my experimental results in great detail here:

    http://boisediesel.com/blog/2016/7/spa-purge

     

    There are links in the above that go into detail re:  what biofilms are.  purging is not an easy magic pill -- it takes work and sometimes alot of patience.  multiple purges are often required. 

     

     

  16. Patience and keep purging!  If you are still getting bad guys that means they are  hiding in there.  Make sure to raise you FC along with ahhsome dosing.  You might also extend the ahhsome soak time and increase agitation.  Perhaps fewer purges with longer soak time 

    YOu can measure sanitizer decay rate.  Dose with oxidizer to 10ppm FC equivalent.    remove all automatic dosing and oxidation  apparati (including ozone)  and cover.  24 hours later measure sanitizer level.  With a, squeaky clean spa you should, get 10 percent Decay.  Rule of thumb is 25 percent.  If you can't disable ozone the decay rate will be less (ozone oxidizes bromide) 

     

    If your decay rate is very low then that is evidence of a benign contaminant.  Not proof just contributing evidence.  

  17. I can vouch the the multiple purge recommendation.  I have personally coached others through as many as 10 ahh some purges. It takes patience and the understanding that stuff hides in the pipes and can take several tries to get it.  I'm always astonished at the accusation that ahh some itself contributes contaminants just for the impressive visual impact.  After correcting the issues of biofilm in my own spa   I  was able to achieve an ahh some dosed vessel, with filters installed, releasing no new material.  That's a clean spa! 

  18. the folks at Ahh-some have researched this particular problem more than I have, especially the consideration of very low pH due to the vinegar, but but I will comment on the general issue of multiple purges.  I think  of the plumbing system complexity, with its many corners, different pipe sizes and nooks and crannies where stuff can hide, and the nature of the contaminants we are trying to remove, and this, along with my own experimental results shows that if the tub is in trouble (bad stuff in the pipes) it can take many purges to get things clean.  I do not have Calcium Stearate contamination in my tub (thankfully) but my (Hot Springs Grandee) did come shipped from the factory contaminated with biofilms. it took me three or four purges to correct this problem.  If I were in your situation I would be already committed to draining again, and once committed to draining I personally favor dosing with Ahh-Some first before you drain.

    With a heavily contaminated spa you just have to power through and keep purging.  I have a friend who  required 10 purges to correct the consequences of a multitude of external contaminants (oils, lotions, detergents, and such) .  I can't comment on exactly what you are seeing but my approach would be to purge, purge, and purge again until you get no more result.  the goal is a fully running spa with filters installed, and no new material released.  This is not a trivial effort!

    once you get your spa clean again, I advocate dosing with ahh-some before every drain (at least for the first few drains).  this allows you to see what is accumulating in your tub, and will allow you to determine if you should dose before every drain or perhaps every other drain. 

  19. Greetings all,

    those who have followed my posts know where I stand on the subject of drain intervals and especially purging, and this post is about that subject as well, for those who are interested.  I ran across an article on the Aqua magazine site, in their "features" section which gives some more detail especially regarding the need to drain and the consequences of the high bather load in heated water.  These are not new details for those who are aware, but frankly this was a good reminder for me as to what the water must endure. It even opened my eyes a little more.    Here is a link to the full  article:

    http://aquamagazine.com/features/spa-soup-why-we-dump-spa-water.html

    Highlights from the article include a long list of things that are contained in the various bodily fluids that end up in the water -- and we're not talking just the 3 pints of sweat per person per hour :-). for example, pharmaceuticals that accumulate.  The author concludes with this statement:  " That relatively small liquid base, to which all the ingredients we've discussed are added — from live bacteria to creams and oils to disinfection byproducts — makes for a rather dense spa soup. Which is why, on a regular basis, you should dump the water and start from scratch."

    Anyway the article is quite a good read, and for me it solidly ratifies the need to drain .  The author didn't discuss purging ,unfortunately, as I suppose this subject has too many opinions, but I will say from personal experience I learned to purge at least every other drain interval and sometimes every drain.  Adding a purge product (I use "Ahh-some" as do many here) to the water just before draining is a no brainier to me because it takes such little incremental effort.  There's just so much information that is now known which, combined with what I personally discovered and learned, makes me more determined than ever to purge regularly. 

    I won't clutter the forum with my "purge" story again, but I will highlight that I'm glad I clean the soup out and wash the bowl regularly.  with apologies for the analogy, draining without purging is (to me) like eating from a dirty plate without washing it first:  you can put new water in the tub but that doesn't scrub the pipes

    -dlleno

     

  20. recommended bromine levels are 4-6ppm.  Such a low concentration of bromine  may dissipate quickly under normal bather load.  Ozone in a bromine spa creates a very interesting and beneficial situation, in that ozone will oxidize sodium bromide and produce a small amount of  sanitizer.  In my  experience, in a properly purged and healthy spa under no load, the bromine levels will decline normally and approach some small residual (such as .5ppm) but never go to zero, due to ozone.  I don't know what Monarch's ozone instructions are referring to here, unless it is the fact that with ozone in use, you can get yourself into a pickle if you dose too high -- the normal sanitizer decay rate is very slow under no load and you can wait a long time before it decays to acceptable levels.  But that aside I find ozone and bromine work very well together. 

    In a spa where you are purging to correct a known problem, I find it beneficial to purge more than once with ahh-some to prove that the first purge was sufficient to clean the vessel.  in my personal tests I found that two purges and even three can be required, and I have coached others through more than that, to correct a particularly vexing contamination issue.  your excessive sanitizer demand could be due to an incomplete purge. if I were in your shoes I would purge again. 

    Glad you got ahh-some.  Silk Balance "Clean Start" is nothing more than ordinary grocery store Borax in a really expensive container

  21. welcome to the forum and congratulations for purging your new-to-you used spa.  I will reveal my own personal opinion here (as it is based on rather extensive testing in my own personal spa), and that is to recommend a product called "ahh-some" for this purpose.  you can search for this on the forum here and find additional reference to this product.  for my own story, if you are interested in great detail on my experiments with different purge products,  you can find my work at http://boisediesel.com/blog/2016/7/spa-purge.

    I have no affiliation with the product except to have tested it.  As I describe in the above blog, it took me two purges with ahh-some to complete the job -- and my spa was only a few months old, delivered brand new from the factory with biofilm contaminants already living inside.  I have also coached others through more than three purges -- if the spa is badly contaminated, it can take multiple purges to remove everything, but that is the rare exception.

    Generally speaking, the purge products I am familiar with will not harm your equipment with extended use,  but you need to be aware of the residue they leave behind, and any other chemistry issues which themselves could be harmful.  if it were me, I wouldn't dose your spa with the purge product until you are ready to follow it's label directions.  at least for the ahh-some product, which I am quite familiar with, there is little benefit from an extended soak while treated.  in your situation I would fill the tub and balance the water enough so that you protect your tub from freezing -- then when you have a window of opportunity to perform the purger, then dose with ahh-some and follow the label directions to complete the purge.

    Do let us know how it goes - I for one am interested to know how many purge cycles it takes to clean your spa-- and if you are like me:  go ahead and use the product you already have, and then after it has done its work you can purge again with ahh-some and see if you get a different result!

  22. some quick observations

     

    1.  I wouldn't use muratic acid to lower pH.  use dry acid

    2.  you are chasing your own tail by adding baking soda.  this raises pH and then you are adding acid to bring pH back down.  TA is good information to help you balance the water, but thats it -- you shouldn't have to "target" certain TA values for the sake of it.    Acrylic spas can run with a negative saturation index no problem, which means TA can to be low in order to moderate pH spikes.  higher TA numbers will promote pH rise due to agitation.    I run normally at TA=40 and sometimes  30, although I test regularly to make sure I avoid a precipitous drop in pH.  my recommendation is to use dry acid to adjust for pH, let TA fall naturally, but ton't let it go below 30.

    3. high pH is irritating and moderates the effectiveness of CL, but you can target a higher pH number like 7.8 and still be ok

    4.  sanitize with dichlor.  the reaction is net acidic. 

    5.  use a pH buffer such as borates obtained from duda diesel.  this is a wonderful pH buffer especially when you switch to bleach.

  23. The extra exposure to high chlorine level will be proportionally hard on equipment, i.e. pumps, seals, filters, etc.  I'm not aware of any precise predictions of equipment life; suffice to say you should alleviate the CL load as soon as practical after the decon has done its work.  this can be done via draining or, if you can't drain right away, dose with hydrogen peroxide to neutralize the CL and then the problem disappears :D 

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