dlleno
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Posts posted by dlleno
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Has anyone here used the product known as "Hot Tub Serum", produced by the makers of 'Ahh-some"? I've been playing around with it for a couple of years now and have concluded that the stuff is real and definitely not a gimmick. I find that it improves my sanitizer decay rate in between purges. Next time I purge will be interesting to see if the 'Serum benefits the purge itself (i.e will there be as much gunk to release)?
I'm interested in your results. I have chronicled mine in a blog post (see below), where I found that Hot Tub Serum produced a measurable improvement in the sanitizer decay rate, even when my water was already clear.
https://boisediesel.com/blog/2020/1/hot-tub-serum
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This is why i (personally) do not recommend "enzyme" products -- their use, and the recommendations of their respective mfgs -- demonstrate a less-than-sufficient knowledge of biofilms and how to contain them. We know that biofilms are not only "bad guys" in their own right, but that they can also provide safe harbor protection for some seriously nefarious contaminants that require Chlorine to kill. If the "enzyme" really did release such biofilms, and the bacterial contaminants hidden within them, then why in Gods Green Earth would you settle for process that lets them live and spread via atomization for any length of time?
To make the best use of the enzyme itself -- yes let it do its work without chlorine. it won't release anything of consequence, but it will do "something" that is better than nothing at all. However, to really stick it to the bad guys you have to use a real purge product who's manufacturer understands biofilms and recommends a kill-dose of chlorine along with the purge product itself.
With the product known as "ahh-some" you can perform the entire process in one step. When your water is warm and ready to drain, dose with ahh-some and also with a kill dose of chlorine as well (bleach). follow the label directions on the ahh-some jar. My own process differs just a little from the mfg in that to prove that I have a clean spa (after cleaning the filters in the vessel) I re-fill the spa, put the filters back into their normal positions, and run an ahh-some dosed spa until there is no further contaminant release (I wipe up stuff with a microfiber cloth). yes this takes more water.... and my water bill reflects that lol
"death to biofilms!"
https://boisediesel.com/blog/2016/7/spa-purge
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I have experimented with purge products a lot over the years and natural chemistry irritates me because it thinks it is the nations premiere distributor of foam. If you seach google for "boisediesel spa purge" you should see all of my write ups. NC works a little but its foam production is just too epic. They've added a bunch of surfactants just to make it appear like its doing something good when in fact it does very little.
Im not sure i csn help with the air lock per se but i can affirm that without a complete drain to remove the NC it will give you grief. Since NC itself is basically a rather weak enzyme type of tonic ( along with the surfactants) i doubt that small amounts of it (evidenced by foam) are problematic. Just a nuisance. If you can't control it with readonable amounts of anti foam you could partial drain. Some spas have an "equipment drain" that might be effective even with a short (10 percent) drain
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Yes. Search this forum for "ahh-some" or "ahhsome" . Lots of good info here. Bottom line is that new spas are often contaminated with biofilm right from the factory/dealer, the normal startup shock treatment is woefully insufficient, and most dealers and mfgs have their heads in the sand on this topic.
After nearky 30 years of experience ive learned three things
1. The above
2. "Dichlor then switch to bleach" works well, both for bromine and chlorine spas
3. An interesting product known as "hot tub serum" is making my life even better, in epic proportions. It solved the vacation problem (no floaters) and improved my chlorine consumption and sanitizer decay rate. I hate gimmicks especially those found in spa stores (scum ball comes to mind. No need for that any more) but this serum stuff is real
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In case anyone is interested in the details of my work, i have been writing up my experiences on my hobby photography site. Im not selling anything (not even photos).... the site contains my test results of various purge products along with a LOT of detail.
https://boisediesel.com/blog/2016/7/spa-purge
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I can offer some perspective here. First of all you are not alone. Many spas (including mine) are delivered from the factory contaminated with biofilms. Its a problem that most mfgs and dealers choose to ignore: that wet testing at the factory, followed by storage and transportation delays can and does produce biofilm contamination. (Queue forehead slap). I learned this the hard way but understand it clearly now.
Secondly you are using the right purge product. I have tested on the order of 10 such products (since 2013) , and dumped thousands of gallons of water into my back yard and the results clearly show that nothing comes close in effectiveness
Now i will take the liberty to post this and edit, to add additional information , as my phone produces unreliable behavior
Third. I implore you to adopt the saying , "s/he persisted " . This process takes PATIENCE. This is because serious contamination problems are not solved by even several purges. I have personally coached folks through as many as 15 purge cycles, so believe me you are only getting started.
Biofilms are nasty and smart littke buggers. They adapt and regenerate quickly and come back with VENGENCE.
Here are some hints
1. Always dose with at least 20ppm chlorine with straight bleach along with ahh-some. Instead of simply attenuating biofilms (like a traditional decon) ahh-some breaks them up and releases them. While ahh-some itself has been EPA tested to kill biofilms we know that the mfg also recommends a kill dose of chlorine . This shows that they understand biofilms
2. Follow Dory's advice ("keep swimming...") and purge again and again
3. Lengthen the soak time and jets on time
4. You mentioned soft water. By itself this isnt a problem but it could challenge you in the amount foam produced by the ahh-some. Instead of adding calcium to each fill you can treat with an anti foam product. In my experiments and for situations like yours i suggest doubling the ahh-some dose and controling foam with your favorite "foam down " type product.
5. Bring pH into reason before adding ahh-some and chlorine. High pH destroys chlorine effectiveness . Bleach is net pH "high" so keep that in mind as well. Other than this there is no real reason to balance your water prior to dosing
There is also no major benefit to warming the water. It helps a little but its not worth the cost in time and electricity
6. Purge again. Purge again. Then again! Don't give up until you have a ahh-some dosed spa producing no new release
7. Did i mention this takes patience?
8. Keep your filters out and throw them away. If you have triX or ceramic (expensive) filters then we can talk later . They can be saved. 🙂
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My hot springs grande was delivered contaminated with biofilms . This is something that both dealers and mfgs tend to dismiss but i can tell you that after a lot of experiments i concluded that the only solution was to purge and purge more than once in some cases.
I recommend using the purge product known as "ahhsome" and i can say that because i have done the due diligence, tested numerius different products and dumped thousands of gallons of water in the ground in order to reach this conclusion
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Greetings everyone,
It has been some time since I performed a purge experiment, so with my water approaching 6 months old it was time. As is my custom, I have chronicled my results with photos on my photography website, so you can see the details there:
https://boisediesel.com/blog/2019/5/purge-shootout-seaklear-silk-balance-ahhsome
Here is a summary of my findings:
* Since I tested the product back in 2016, Silk Balance "Clean Start" has changed its formula from pure Borax granules to a liquid that includes a weak concentration of a "QUAT" (see the article for what that is) in addition to Borax. the result is a product that is approximately equivalent to SeaKlear and O-Yuk in terms of its contaminant release performance. All three of these products have apparently gone the "QUAT" route.
* Ahhsome is profoundly superior to both SeaKlear and Clean Start. If you google their respective MSDS's you will find that ahh-some contains the higher "QUAT" concentration, and in fact my research concludes that ahhsome contains more than one unique "QUAT" molecule. I can only assume that this is done to improved the product's effectiveness over the others, which is certainly the case. I'm glad to see that the industry is waking up to the effectiveness of "QUATs" for the purpose of purging hot tubs, but so far no one has been able to come close to the effectiveness of Ahhsome's formula.
* The company that produces Ahhsome also produces an interesting water maintenance product called "Hot Tub Serum". In the experiment noted above, this particular product gave me a surprisingly good benefit that I did not expect: it prevented biofilms from accumulating in my filter pleats, such that dropping my filters into the ahhsome-dosed vessel produced no measurable release. this result is in contrast to my previous experiments ,where throwing the filters into the vessel produced what appeared to be a biofilm release, even when the filters were previously cleaned with a standard degreaser product. I also found that the "Serum" product produced a measurable improvement in my sanitizer decay rate ,which I'll have to describe in more detail later.
* I find that the dye present in both Clean Start (red) and SeaKlear (blue) enhances the visual impact of an otherwise weak performance. in the experiments above I found strong evidence in support of this conclusion.
* I remain astonished that products such as SeaKlear and Clean Start apparently do not expect to release any pathogens trapped by, for example, a chlorine-resistant layer of biofilm. If these products were known to be effective enough to be used in this way, their label directions would include very clear instructions to use them along with elevated levels of chlorine. The manufacturer of Ahhsome clearly has done this. I wonder how long it will take for the industry to catch on to this, and when some of these lesser products will have new labels suggestion the use of chlorine!
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The monopersulfate (mps) could be confusing your test strips. if you do have enough bromide reserve, the mps could be producing high bromine levels above that of the test strips ability to test. If your bromide reserve is too low, shocking with mps wont produce much bromine at all.
When starting a bromine spa with the granulated bromine, you have mostly a chlorine space with a small amount of bromide reserve. As you keep adding granular bromine the reserve builds over time and the transition to bromine becomes complete. Its helpful to remember that the bromine granules are mostly chlorine which is the oxidizer to produce bromine from the bromide salts that are also part of the formulation
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Btw the white flakes you describe , as being easy to wipe off, is not likely calcium. It sounds actually similar to what I found on my brand new spa after i purged (I couldn't get water to balance from day one).
Purging multiple times (depending on what gets released) with ahhsome, along with elevated chlorine levels (you can use bleach), is your best chance of success. Then let's talk about your source water and bather load etc . This is all doable! I'm here to tell you that ahhsome saved me from spa store incompetency and actually a manufacturer who refused to acknowledge that wet testing at the factory, followed by storage and transportation delays, DOES allow biofilms to form in a BRAND SPANKING NEW SPA. Pardon the emphasis...sometimes I get irritated at spa store incompetence and mfg arrogance, for looking the other way and pretending these problems are your fault!
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You may have several things going on but it just sounds to me like the biofilms and other residues are getting the best of you. Brand new hot tubs are notorious breeding grounds for biofilms yes.
Having drained more experimental gallons of water than anyone i know of, what I can say is that I would encourage you to study my blog posts (search Google for "boisediesel spa purge"). Ground yourself in the behavior and control of biofilms .
White residue could be biofilms or calcium deposits or some other contaminant as well. I think you need to perform at least two (and maybe more) purges with the product known as "ahhsome" (search here on this forum) and follow the label directions to the letter .
Also post test results from your untreated source water , as in from the hose before it enters your hot tub
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Halogen odor preferences are subjective, as are the words we use to describe them , but to me Bromine smells just a little sweeter . A sour component suggests you are either over sanitizing or there are yet-unoxidized contaminants.
With the proper levels, neither chlorine nor bromine should be strong or objectionable . Floaters usually over sanitize...what bromine levels are you running at soak time?
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Have you purged lately? Seriously I sound like a broken record, but even if you aren't old enough to know what a needle stylus does when encountering a break in the vinyl, I respectfully submit on the authority of my own experiments with numerous products, there is nothing more effective than one or more complete purges with a particular product discussed here frequently
Search Google for "spa purge boisediesel" and my articles should show up...
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Replied to your other (duplicate) post
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Is this an a acrylic portable spa? It sounds to me like the bad guy nasties are winning the war. You mentioned "the gel flush" but didn't mention what product you actually used or how you used it. Are you using "ahhsome" as discussed here in this forum?
Normally in a situation like this, I would recommend a prolonged, multiple purge regimen as I have coached others through as many as 10 complete purges to really win this kind of war, but seeing the term "the gel flush" doesn't indicate yet that you have used the "ahhsome" purge product according to the label directions. But i may be mis reading you, so just Kindly let us know what you mean by "gel flush" and what steps you followed and we would be in a better position to advise on your next steps
The best nuclear trump card against the proliferation of contaminants including biofilms is a many repeated purges with ahhsome with elevated chlorine levels (the elevated chlorine is VITALLY important). The fact that your chlorine levels fall faster than normal means that you've got biofilms and that they keep regenerating (the evil beasties do just that...). One purge with "the gel flush" may not have eradicated the biofilms from your spa....only made them angry ...
Remember too....if chlorine goes to zero that means biofilms can regenerate..
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It would be great to hear from the OP on this (very old but still relevant) issue, but with that acknowledged let me offer a clarifying question and additional comment. While the symptoms you and the OP describe appear to be water quality/contamination and improper maintenance related it is also good to find out if you have any allergies or sensitivities. In addition to seeking medical advise you can establish some things experimentally. Here's the question. Do you experience any such symptoms if you were to use a public pool ? If not, then I'd suggest you have a water problem.
Some do have sensitivities to properly maintained halogen sanitizers (chlorine and bromine) but these are relatively rare. When water is balanced, properly sanitized and free from biofilms the vast majority of us see no issues. I have learned some hard lessons myself regarding brand new spas but fortunately for me I have not faced what you have. The thing I would do in your situation (in parallel with seeking medical advice) is a full blown decontamination and purge. There's just no substitute. I say this because biofilms adhering to the pipes and vessel walls are known capable of harboring some very nasty bacteria that can make people sick. In your shoes I would not rest until made certain to rule this out
All the best. I'd like to see you get to the bottom of this! I'm afraid to say that your situation sounds very familiar: your spa was probabky delivered with biofilms contamination present (mine was), or you may have made some innocent mistakes in water maintenance . You may very well save the day and reclaim your spa with a good purge and decontamination.
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It's also possible that TA is rising because you are adding stuff. Lotions, hair products, etc. Are you using fabric softener on swimsuits? High bather load? Guests? Do you add outside water?
With those CA numbers you could suppliment your city well water with softened water. Use the pool calculator.
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I don't target a ta number I use dry acid to lower ph and accept the lower ta number which can get as low as 40 ppm on my spa (be careful... Very low ta can result in a precipitous drop in ph)
The lower ta values are fine for acrylic spas and help with the ph drift. There are a number of things that can raise ta but my suggestion is to stop chasing a particular ta number and let it fall as you combat rising ph
Another tip I have learned is not to be in a race to "switch to bleach". I find that ph is much easier to control (without using boric acid) if I err a bit on the side of using dichlor a bit longer than the formula suggests.
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Baking soda (sodium carbonate) is the go-to product to raise both ph and ta. Dry acid ( Sodium bisulfate) is the go-to product to lower both
Beware of adjusting ta as if trying to hit a target. Ph is the more important target especially for acrylic spas which can run low ta levels as needed to Control ph upward drift
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You're in good company... This topic is mis understood by many. First of all ta by itself isn't a number to achieve - - stable ph is. What are your "as is" numbers and what are you trying to achieve?
Perhaps more importantly you are shooting yourself in the foot by using spa down (this lowers both ph and ta) and spa up (which raises both). If your goal is to lower ta, then do this with spa down and then raise ph again, not with chemicals but by agitating and heating the water.
I'm my own spa I do not chase ta I chase ph and let ta drift around a bit. If your ph is good, and your water isn't cloudy, then you may be shooting at an enemy (ta) that you don't have
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Fish crackers, skin oils, perfumes, lotions, detergents left in swimming suits.... Any off the above can cause issues in what is basically a bathtub that doesn't get drained. Have you considered a "purge"? More than just a drain, this process scrubs the pipes and releases the source of contamination. It sounds to me like this is the ticket
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Yea in afraid I cant recommend an ozone generator. Mine came with the hot spring grande and just works.
I wish you good luck on the purges! Yes especially for an old/used spa you are doing precisely the right thing. The biggest mistake people make - - well there are two - - in failing the purge step are
1. You got to keep purging (drain, fill, re dose with awesome) untill you have achieved a clean spa as I described previously with filters in their normal positions. Don't give up - if you see yuck you have to purge again. I have personally coached others through as many as 10. Note : on my last purge I saw only a small amount of material release, which I wiped up with a cloth. That did it.
2. People have actually postulated that ahhsome itself introduces contaminants for the visual effect. These folk have not performed step 1 😄
Here is a post from Chem geek relating to nature 2
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I personally have not tried the particular solutions you mention but would suggest thinking about the problem from the standpoint of sanitizer consumption. I'll let Chem geek school us regarding the solutions themselves but as a practical matter, note that a halogen sanitizer at .5ppm is sufficient to maintain water when no organics or pathogens are introduced ("no load"). I have personally achieved this. Introduce any load (organic that will consume sanitizer) and the supply can't keep up with the demand and so bromine goes to zero and bad things happen. In the case of a Corona discharge ozone generator, with sufficient sodium bromide salts in the water, ozone will oxidize the bromide and produce a small concentration of bromine (in my 500 gallon hot spring grandee I measure between .5 and 1 ppm), under no load conditions. Before I get in the water I raise bromine to 4-6 ppm.
I wish I knew how to size or express the requirements of an ozone generator for this purpose but I note that it can't be too strong (if it runs during soaks) or the bathers will be in danger, but it has to be strong enough to oxidize the bromide salts to produce bromine. The only point of reference I have is (1) my old school uv generator wasn't good and (2) the one supplied with my grandee works perfectly.
Not to sound like a broken record, but the ozone trick making bromine doesn't work if there are any biofilms present. You gotta have a clean spa (the ahhsome purge is just a requirement imho before you can depend on this). In your favor, putting the spa indoors is good. outdoors I find that that wind dust, spiders, yellow jackets or whatever can really put this plan at risk.
My own experiments have led me to conclude that the reason spa stores look at you funny when you mention ozone producing bromine is because the technique won't work in most cases. This is because most residential spas, even when they have sufficient bromide bank, have some biofilms present (my opinion) because they aren't purged regularly. owners just cover up the problem by maintaining acceptable sanitizer levels (I have personally demonstrated this on my own spa). The evidence is strong that one can have healthy looking water, acceptable sanitizer levels, and healthy, blissfully unaware bathers and still have biofilms present such that the ozone trick won't work.
BTW when I refer to a clean spa I mean jets running, filters in their normal position, and water dosed with ahhsome but producing NO visible contaminants. This is not trivial to produce and (for me) required multiple ahhsome purges before reaching this state of cleanliness. No I don't use the spa in this condition... I drain and refill, and the ozone trick works!
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I can relate my experience (blog link posted elsewhere) that you absolutely can utilize a Corona discharge ozone generator to maintain bromine levels in a spa with a vinyl covered cover. I find that ozone doesn't deteriorate my cover any more than the sun does. Yes the secret is the Ahh-Some purge to insure that no biofilms are present. When you do this, you will find that bromine levels will decay but will not go to zero, under no load. You do have to make sure that no dust or critters end up on the water cause the ozone production of bromine cannot keep up with any bio load
I am a firm believer in multiple ahh some purges
Hot Tub Serum anyone?
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted · Edited by dlleno
cleaned up link
Hi everyone --
I don't post here very often but those who have followed my work may be interested in a set of experiments I just concluded re: "Hot Tub Serum". This is a maintenance product produced by the makers of "ahh-some", a purge product that should require no introduction here. I have been relentlessly testing stuff and pointing out the difference between useful products and snake oil, and after a year or more of using this "Hot Tub Serum" I have enough information to share, finally. Below is a link to "part 8" of my work which concludes my experiments and also links back to "part 7" which is the first of the two "Hot Tub Serum" posts. These are a follow-on to my experimentation with Ahh-some. The details are too long to post here directly, so the link below is to my hobby photography site where I chronicle my experiments.
Hot Tub Serum blog post
Has anyone else played with this stuff? my chemistry regimen is now quite simple:
* I use the "dichlor-then-switch-to-bleach"" program for both chlorine and bromine, although with Serum in the water the cutover is less critical
* I purge with ahh-some on every drain
* I am now using Hot Tub Serum as a supplement to my sanitizer regimen. I no longer use MPS
no floaters, no scum balls, no anti-foam -- I try to keep things as simple as possible