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dlleno

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Everything posted by dlleno

  1. the first think I would do is get a Taylor "drop wise" test kit. they are affordable, wonderfully accurate, and can a very wide range of levels. only then will you really begin to understand how your own water behaves and how much sanitizer you consume. test strips are notoriously inaccurate
  2. I'm an old guy that learned new tricks lol . I say the above carefully because some very good folks on this forum have posted decon procedures and I dont want to take away anything from their work . but in recent years especially I've performed a boat load of experiments (testing purge products) and for residential purposes I just don't see any point in exposing your equipment to 100+ppm chlorine, when that procedure can now be replaced by a more effective one. this is relatively new to the spa industry and many spa stores (including my own local store) still have their heads in the sand and won't acknowledge how biofilms work Here is the beachhead article of my work that started a number of years back
  3. should be just fine -- just make sure you start with dichlor first, to achieve approximately 30ppm CYA before switching to bleach
  4. a few points on bromine: just to be precise: CYA doesn't inhibit bromine, it inhibits chlorine, so that there isn't enough active chlorine to oxidize sodium bromide into bromine sanitizer technically speaking, there is no such thing as "adding bromine to a spa" in the same sense that you "add" chlorine. the various ingredients responsible for producing bromine in the water are often packaged together and referred to as "adding bromine" but all of them rely on the same process: sodium bromide (a salt), when exposed to an oxidizer (like chlorine or ozone) produces the bromine sanitizer, which is really hypobromous acid. Sometimes, one of the ingredients, Sodium Bromide, is referred to as "bromine", but by itself Sodium bromide does nothing useful. As you have noted, the packaged preparation of "bromine granules" is nothing more than a combination of sodium bromide and ordinary "dichlor". It works and it is useful -- I have used it before in a pinch, but it is not the best way to produce a bromine spa . its basically a "one step" solution that combines the two critical ingredients together -- just like a puck or tablet does -- only in granular form. the problem with the one-step granular bromine, while it is simple, is that (a) upon a fresh fill you don't have a bromine spa yet because there isn't enough sodium bromide present to produce bromine. so you end up with a combination of chlorine and bromine at first . (b) as you use the granules over time you will build up the sodium bromide bank beyond what is necessary and so the stuff becomes, basically, a weakened version of dichlor chlorine that is only 85% as strong as normal dichlor. Really there is no problem using the stuff, but you're better off supplying your own bromide bank (sodium bromide is cheap) and using straight dichlor. Any time you add dichlor to a spa you are adding CYA, which is there as a stabilizer. Its a good thing, because without it, swim suits wouldn't last as long. However, just as in the bromine problem above, CYA continues to accumulate in the water as you add dichlor. this is why many of us stop using dichlor after a few weeks and use straight bleach. pure, ordinary un-adulterated bleach found at the grocery store. once sufficient CYA has accumulated there is no need to add more CYA (in the form of dichlor) so thats why we switch to bleach. the challenge with this approach is that bleach is net pH positive, while dichlor is net pH neutral or slightly negative during the oxidation process. Bleach users typically have more issues with pH drift. by now you may have realized that we bromine proponents have a very interesting and wonderful advantage: because CYA is a don't care, we really don't care (well unless you get to the point where there is way too much, as in your case!) To illustrate this point, however, I have run my bromine spa WITHOUT ONE GRANULE OF DICHLOR. yup, straight pure un-adulterated 6% sodium hypochlorite ( bleach) from the grocery store. With sodium bromide already in the water, bleach is just an oxidizer and it makes bromine. I don't recommend this for others because there are some risks -- spa stores heads explode, for one thing --- and a variety of self-proclaimed chemistry geeks start to predict certain doom because they don't fully understand it -- so I did it to prove a point. Now, however, Instead of using straight bleach I use dichlor until I have built up about 30ppm CYA and then I switch to bleach. (the reason you have to be careful with straight bleach is because, during the bromine conversion there is a short period of time when un-moderated chlorine is present in the water) Personally, my bromine method, from a fresh fill, is very simple: you treat it exactly like you would a chlorine spa, using dichlor, only you add the bromide bank "up front" balance and heat water add sodium bromide bank (either granular or liquid forms are available) use dichlor for sanitizer on a regular basis . after a few weeks you can switch to bleach (to avoid building up too much CYA) floaters: they work, although I'm not a fan. if there is no need for automated sanitizing in a chlorine spa there is no need for such in a bromine spa. the problem with floaters is that you can over-sanitize and cover up, for example, a problem with biofilms. shocking a bromine spa: this is perhaps the only disadvantage of a bromine spa-- anything you shock with, i.e. dichlor, MPS, bleach -- even ozone-- , will produce bromine. there is no such thing as a "non-bromine" shock because they all oxidize bromide salts into hypobromous acid ("bromine ") if there is sodium bromide in your water. so "shocking a bromine spa" is really just raising the bromine level to some high amount (this is a good thing, from time to time). The other disadvantage is that if you shock too high it can be days before bromine subsides to the point where you can get in, because there is no way (as with chlorine) to neutralize bromine. This can be a problem for spas that do not have biofilms present (yea its true, hear me out...). in too many cases, biofilms are present and actually consume sanitizer (produce a steep decay rate) and those with floaters or automatic dispensers are none the wiser -- so when it comes time to shock, they don't even notice that it doesn't take very long before its safe to enter the spa -- the bad guys have been consuming it! I once shocked my bromine spa to the teens (15ppm bromine) and it took all week to get it back down to 4. this is partly because I have an ozone generator.
  5. This is a good one! I think the measure of success here is the ability to restore balanced, clear water. if you find yourself struggling then change your water
  6. "Certain bacteria excrete a mucus layer that protects them from the chemicals." Yea, the old school method was to try attenuate biofilms with crazy high chlorine levels. The only way to get them is to break down that outer fatty layer with something else. What ahhsome does is soften up the bad guys and break them loose so that they end up on your vessel walls. By itself ahhsome will do some killing and is EPA registered to do so but you have to have chlorine present for the complete kill. 20ppm of free chlorine is sufficient
  7. I believe so but it would be worth contacting the mfg to make sure.
  8. Keep us informed! Take some photos of your vessel walls when ahhsome does its work lets see what it releases!
  9. superchlorination (decon) may not be sufficient for this. you probably need a serious purge. looks like biofilms to me, along with some skin oils or lotions or other residue from bathing (even fabric softener on swim suits). RD is right -- get some "ahh-some" and follow the label directions for a complete purge
  10. ok if you you put in 14.5 oz (good catch I didn't see that before) and it only took TWO DAYS to get back down to safe levels, then you have some seriously bad biofilms going on. nothing you want to get close to is capable of consuming even 100 ppm of chlorine in two days. be prepared for gunk. serious amounts of it, compared to how long you have had the spa, I mean. read my blog post on this subject--- short story is go on Amazon and get the stuff called "ahh-some" and follow the label directions. its a gel. in my experience thats the only way to tackle what I think is going on in your tub, unless I'm seriously missing something. My other advise is purge more than once -- seriously. I have personally coached folks through as much as 15 purges to get things clean -- this takes patience but its the only solution to get your spa back on track. the old school decon process attempts to attenuate biofilms with huge levels of chlorine. unfortunately, the biofilms are resistant to this, and the only way to get them is to break them loose so that a sane amount of chlorine (like 20ppm) can move in for the kill. So when you purge with ahh-some, be sure to get some ordinary bleach (if you can find it. if not use dichlor) and put in enough to achieve 20ppm. so a half cup in your case would get you to ~50ppm which is fine. in your case because your water is pretty wacked at the moment. you need that much chlorine on the first purge in order to kill the bad guys that ahh-some has released. wear gloves. on subsequent purges you can fill again and dose to 20ppm chlorine during the ahh-some release process.
  11. yea shocking with dichlor is not necessarily a bad idea but it will raise your chlorine levels to where you cant use the spa. something to think about here is why is it that your chlorine is all wacked out, when you are already draining regularly and you've already been shocking weekly with MPS. but lets think this through a bit: 8 ounces of dichlor! holy smokes that is one Cup! that is serious decon territory, not "shock" treatment -- its enough to raise chlorine into the 100ppm territory. I am NOT an advocate for this type of approach. if you need that kind of shock then you need to purge. I would re-think your approach and get some "ahh-some" instead.
  12. oh - as for pH -- yea yours is a little high, but read the other recent posts here re: "balancing" to get some additional insights as to why pH upward drift is a problem, what to do about its. The spa stores will tell you to target a certain number for TA but they are wrong about that 🙂
  13. Spa stores often have good people operating their test equipment, which is usually supplied by a big label chemical company. they're not all bad, and the advise you were given is standard stuff, and not really bad -- just incomplete. the reason why combined and free chlorine are different is because you do need to shock and rid your water of the byproducts of oxidation that accumulate over time. dichlor is a sanitizer but in larger doses is is a "shock" -- if you shock with more chlorine, then that will push free chlorine up (which is what it supposed to do). your options here are to wait until the FC level drops to safe levels in this situation you could consider a non-chlorine shock. "MPS" is a good one. my other advise is to learn to test your own water -- get a Taylor "DPD" (the powder) test kit, which is very accurate . frankly you won't be successful until you go through the "rite of passage" here. read up and get your hands dirty so to speak! and welcome to the spa scene -- it is very rewarding when you get it right I also advocate -- at least when starting out -- for the use of plain ordinary granular "dichlor" as your regular sanitizer. dose your spa manually until you understand things -- then consider an automatic thingie if you really want. btw there are are a great many of us operating spas with granular dichlor -- manually dosing after every use, for example. I'm surprised you haven't been given more details on how to start up a spa, but one thing I will stress very strongly -- PURGE YOUR BRAND NEW SPA with a product called "ahh-some". my recent post on purging has more details. trust me -- new spas can and do come contaminated with biofilms (mine did). and the old-school decon procedures are just not cutting it. forget those and purge according to the ahh-some label directions. see my hobby photography blog (separate post) for details. This does not have to be complicated! purge baby purge 🙂
  14. I'm seeing a few posts about bacterial contamination, and since it has been a long time since I posted my research in this area I thought it might be helpful to do so again. In the last few years of coaching others and reading the forums, the most common misconception, and even lack of knowledge out there is regards what is called "biofilms" in short biofilms; are self-regenerating living organisms live and grow in 1-3ppm chlorine cause all kinds of water maintenance issue many times go unnoticed will consume sanitizer makes your water go cloudy interferes with balancing and overall water chemistry Several years ago on this forum I posted my journey into the above; I read all kinds of literature and studied up, because I had a problem to solve in my on brand-new Hot Spring Grandee. Anyway, for those interested in a long read, but who want to be educated in the matters of biofilms and how to get rid of them, you may be interested in my story. the net net is that I have found a way to purge my spa - on every drain -- and i am now "biofilm free". My Hobby photography site chronicles my journey into testing multiple "purge products" and pointing out the ones that don't work and the ones that do. anyway I didn't see much activity or education here regarding the importance of regular purges, so I'll offer my story again, which is found here I purge every time I drain. I use no scum balls, foam-down or water clarifiers. but I find that purging your hot tub is much like backing up your computer: there are only two kinds of people in the world -- those tho have purged, and those who someday wish they had. There is so much mis-information out there, most of which coming from big-labels, chains, and local spa stores, that I think it might be worth re-introducing this subject
  15. Thanks RD im pretty sporadic in my attendance lol but glad to help. There is one other detail in this area that I should note. Test pH when water is still/calm. A fun experiment is to test your water "at rest" and then turn on the jet pumps and open up the air valves. Then test the agitated water while everything is running. You'll get a different answer when the two measurements are 60 seconds apart. The moral of the story is that damage to equipment can occur if pH goes too low and this occurs when the water is still. Yet your skin will be irritated with high pH and that occurs while you're in the spa not testing it!
  16. pH drift is nearly always a problem in Spas, due to (1) agitation, and (2) heat. I too was once a number-chaser, but I soon learned that you will be forever chasing your tail if you try and target a certain TA number -- especially if you try to raise TA. its just not worth the effort. It's true that TA acts as a pH buffer in that bisulfate has more influence over pH when TA is low. that by itself is not incorrect. But to say that bicarb has a greater effect on TA than pH I think that is misleading in a spa because of the agitation and water temperature. i mean people have been successful targeting a certain TA number but I'm not one of them :-). Higher TA values in a spa result in a greater pH drift, due to agitation and temperature. A better pH buffer would be to try the Borate solution, which works better to stabilize pH. In the end - your goal in an acrylic portable spa with jets, maybe an ozone generator, and 103 degree water is to control pH upward drift, and you will find that the influence of those factors is less when TA is low. So.... what I learned is not to target a TA number -- let it drop as you add bisulfate to drop pH. your skin doesn't care about TA but it does care about pH (as does chlorine), so I have just found that the way around this circus is (1) target a higher pH value than, such as 7.8, and (2) keep beating down your pH and let TA drop as a result. just keep testing TA so that you don't go too low. I let mine go as low as 40ppm! thats kinda scary though -- because as you rightly imply with TA that low you risk a precipitous drop in pH "through the floor".
  17. By itself, CYA is a relative "don't care" as regards bromine. that is, CYA does not moderate the strength of bromine. however, with CYA levels 10 times the recommended normal for Spas, I would start to wonder if you are using extraordinary amounts of chlorine just to generate the bromine. so you would have a catch-22: your chlorine is what generates bromine from bromide, but your chlorine is so heavily moderated by CYA that it isn't a very effective oxidizer. So you end up using even more chlorine just to obtain bromine! ergo, an ever-increasing level of CYA. and since you are "shocking" with bromine you are also contributing to the CYA level -- because bromine is generated by oxidizing bromide salts. and Chlorine is a good oxidizer! I think I would advocate for starting over, in this case. Im a big fan of SIMPLE -- there is no need to use a floater for bromine (unless you want to) and you can maintain a bromine spa exactly as you would a chlorine spa -- with granula chlorine. in your situation I think I would purge with ahh-some and restart.
  18. boy thats a very broad subject with no turn-key easy answers, without knowing more about your situation. in general here are some thoughts * read the stickies; there's some good info there on balancing * get a Taylor test kit . avoid test strips * chlorine: you'll need to figure out what your sanitizer regimen will be. granular chlorine is easy -- in which case "di-chlor" is the ingredient you need. * for very low total hardness: are you filling with soft water? One key statement is "...was in a rent house when I moved in" . I would highly recommend purging this spa with the product known as "ahh-some". I also recommend reading up on biofilms and why they are important. Here's a link to my own personal journey/learnings (this is my hobby photography site) https://boisediesel.com/blog/2016/7/spa-purge
  19. one thing I have discovered is that actively targeting a certain level of TA is not really fruitful. especially in an acrylic spa you can drop the saturation index below zero without the sky falling. seriously I test TA from time to time but frankly TA by itself is not a parameter to target. some may find it helpful in water balance, but there is no merit in chasing a particular TA number. In fact, you have already discovered that raising TA will cause upward pH drift. if you target pH instead of TA you will learn that TA can drop below the recommended numbers and the sky will not fall. Especially if you use the "dichlor switch to bleach" method - -sodium hypo is net pH positive so you may find yourself fighting a loosing battle if you target a certain value for TA. its better to use dry acid to bring pH down and let TA fall where it may (just watch to make sure it doesn't get too low). I have operated my spa at TA=50ppm quite successfully -- not because I targeted 50ppm but because thats what it took to control pH. nothing against those who are successful with higher TA values; I just found that I can control upward pH drift much easier if I let TA naturally fall below the magic recommended numbers. yes I test TA because if it goes below 50ppm then I risk a precipitous drop in pH. *high TA causes upward pH drift * dry acid lowers both TA and pH * agitation raises pH my source water has fairly high TA so for the first few weeks into a new fill I'm constantly pushing down on pH by adding dry acid. I just let TA fall.
  20. I've operated a bromine spa for 30 years, without even the thought of a floater or use of tablets. * A bromine spa can be maintained exactly like a chlorine spa that uses granular chlorine * anyone who tells you not to use chlorine in a Spa is not playing with a full deck. chlorine is the oxidizer present in bromine tablets * anyone who tells you to use test strips is not playing with a full deck. drop test kits are affordable, easy to use, and accurate *anyone who tells you not to use anything except bromine tablets is not playing with a full deck. you should regularly purge your spa with a product mentioned on this forum, called "ahh-some" * Agree with the previous post - -you absolutely have to test and your water. get a Taylor test kit! by the way, ozone and bromine is a wonderful combination. if your spa has been properly purged (not harboring any biofilms) you can actually see that the ozone generator will produce small amounts of bromine. I have personally maintained .5ppm ish bromine, under optimum (no load) conditions with just ozone.
  21. CYA is a component of your oxidizer that you are probably using to generate bromine. Regular use of granular dichlor, for example, (or the chlorine variant that is found in bromine tablets) produces bromine from the bromide salts already in the water
  22. the one point that caught my attention in the OP was that there was a sudden onset of skin irritation. Have you purged this puppy?
  23. bromine is easy peasy -- Ive never understood why it seems so complicated. the only difference between a bromine spa and a chlorine spa (maintained with granular dichlor) is that you add bromide salts at startup. you can certainly shock with dichlor at first -- thats always a good idea. After that, add the bromide salts and voila you have a bromine spa. every time you add dichlor you will generate bromine.
  24. thats a one-step bromine product that will produce bromine over time. used regularly, it will build up a bromine reserve, but starting out it will not give you a bromine spa it will give you a chlorine spa with a little bromine thrown in. Basically its a preparation that relieves one from having to think about how bromine is generated. But you can do this yourself -- put bromide salts (a reserve) into your spa and then use dichlor as the oxidizer to generate bromine. You don't need a floater -- you can just maintain a bromine spa exactly like you would a chlorine spa (with granular dichlor). there are a number of bromide reserve products you use to start up a bromine spa. I just don't get why bromine is perceived to be complicated. its exactly like a chlorine spa (using dichlor) only you add a one-time dose of bromide salts at startup. as for the sliminess -- have you purged recently?
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