sharkman009
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Posts posted by sharkman009
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ozone can actually have a NEGATIVE effect in a chlorine system since the two tend to destroy each other so it can acutally increase chlorine demand in some cases.
Also, ozone is a toxic gas and there should be no residual in the water and that is often not the case in the less expensive units where ozone concentration can get high right at the water surface (where the bathers are breathing it in!)
Ozone is of marginally more benefit when using bromne since it will oxidize bromide into hypobromous acid but it also has a tendency to oxidize bromide into bromate too. Bromates are not renewable (cannot be converted back into hypobromous acid like bromide can) and are suspected carcinogens when ingested.
With all that being said, ozone can help reduce sanitizer demand in a well designed system but such systems are rare.
I would be interested in seeing some information supporting the theory that chlorine and ozone will destroy each other. Ozone is nothing more than a oxygen molecule with a third atom and does not destroy bromine or chlorine. Bromate are created when the bromine molecule comes into contact with a living bacteria this does not happen when it comes into contact with another oxidizer.
Ozone can be toxic in high levels so is chlorine and bromine. These oxidizers have to be by theyre very nature as they are meant to kill a living organism. Used properly they do an excellent job of killing bacteria in a warm water environment. My number one priority for my customers is that theyre spas are safe for theyre families to use and anything such as an ozonator that can help insure that is a good thing in my opinion. We arent talking about a system that is costing the customer $2000 as they did in the begining and for what they sell for they are well worth theyre price.
The theory that properly installed ozone systems are very rare is not true you are always going to have junk being peddled in any industry but there are many more good manufacturers out there than there are bad.
I just want to take a moment and point out, this conversation is a perfect example of why customers are sometimes so confused. Here we have several dealers completely disagreeing with another- who is the customer to believe when the professionals can't even agree?
The amount of misinformation in the industry shouldn't exist on something that's been in the wild so long.
I think it's because we're all going on personal observation, marketing material info, with a bit of pseudo science, where a little information can be a dangerous thing.
I'd love to see a peer reviewed study of O3 use in spa's.
Take care,
~Ben
PS- Waterbear, about off gassing- I have some doozies to tell back in the 80's.
There is plenty of hard facts available to anyone who wants to do the homework. The Center for Disease control has a lot of information on ozone as a disinfectant being used on everything from pools to hospital tools. The World Health Organization also has plenty of info on this. I could go on with other sources. I dont go off of marketing material or pseudo science and of course each one of us will use personal observation. Some of the arguments being against ozone just arent correct.
I was trying to be diplomatic
I sense that you're learning quite a bit in this thread. ~Ben
I understand you were trying to be diplomatic, is this a forum where opinions and ideas are discussed or is it a site for opinions that are not to be questioned? If I see information being givin that I dont agree with is it wrong to ask for the facts after all we should all be here to learn. I've givin plenty of reading for facts that are not my opinion but the findings of scientists. And as of yet there has only been one post leading to any information on chlorine being couteractive to ozone( I have not read this article yet). And absolutely zero backup for the claim of Bromites being produced by ozone. I have gone through every chemical formula for reactions between bromine and ozone and can find nothing. And as I see from Waterbears last post he doesnt to show any proof of this HARD FACT.
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There is plenty of hard facts available to anyone who wants to do the homework. The Center for Disease control has a lot of information on ozone as a disinfectant being used on everything from pools to hospital tools. The World Health Organization also has plenty of info on this. I could go on with other sources. I dont go off of marketing material or pseudo science and of course each one of us will use personal observation. Some of the arguments being against ozone just arent correct.
There is truth in what you say. However ozone, AS IT IS IMPLEMENTED IN MANY SPAS, is nothing more than a marketing feature and it does not really achieve what it claims to. Hard fact, ozone does destroy chlorine and vice versa so it can actually increase chlorine demand. Hard fact, ozone does reactive bromide reserves into active bromine sanitizer but also over oxidizes bromides into non renewable bromates. Hard fact, UV ozone systems are not effective. CD ozone systems requires drying tubs and reaction chambers for optimum results and these are often eliminated to save money. Hard fact, ozone is toxic and the level in the water that bathers are in should be 0 ppm. Hard fact, ozone has no residual effect so it does not eliminate the need for a fast acting residual sanitizer and it does not always lower sanitizer demand but can actually cause it to rise.
There is some truth in what you say also. However you stated that a properly installed ozonator is rare and I dont agree with that. I do agree with the statement you just made about some spas implementing ozone as a marketing strategy. As far as your claim that ozone destroys chlorine and over oxidizes bromine, show me where to find this information so I can learn from this as I have never heard of ozone creating Bromates. What is your basis for UV systems not being effective? True they are higher maintainance and nowhere near as effective as CD or VUV ozone but they do produce ozone and if the bulbs are changed yearly they will continue to produce ozone. Your statement about CD systems is somewhat misleading. The key word in your statement is optimum. There are many ways to increase the productivity of an Ozone system. Air dryers are used to reduce nitric acid and increase ozone production. Sometimes we use oxygen concentrators to help increase ozone production. A mixing chamber does nothing but allow the oxidation to occur and allow for of gasing. In a spa or pool (depending on how it is plumbed) The plumbing or the body of water itself is a mixing chamber. Taking all these things into consideration an ozonator is still benefitial IMHO even if it doesnt have these things. I know that there is not an accptable level of ozone that should be inhaled and if the ozonator is installed properly there wont be. How can ozone be strong enough to destroy chlorine and yet not effective at killing bacteria? Also I might point out that the CDC has determined that you can not prevent swimmers lung in a pool or spa that is PROPERLY maintained with chlorine, which is exactly why they are turning to ozone as a secondary sanitizer.
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Lite2 Pool and Spa Heater, Model LJ 400,000 BTU Propane - Is this pool heater reliable and can it heat a 18x36 Inground Pool? Also can it be converted to NG?
I found one that is used for $500.00
That is a reliable heater it just depends on how well it was maintained. It is able to handle heating a pool that size and a propane conversion kit is available for that. Most kits require you to change the gas valve and orifices/ If your pretty mechanical you may be able to find a conversion kit that you just change the daighram in the valve and the orifices. Id price the parts out before you invest in a used heater.
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I have a 25,000 gallon in ground concrete / plaster pool. It is an older pool (1998ish) but new to us - we just moved in a few months back. To prepare for the swim season I gave it a good shocking last night. Leslie's recommended 4lbs of Cal-Hypo Shock. I put that in last night at 7:00 PM and now 12 hours later it is cloudy as all heck. Water was crystal clear when I started.
I'm hoping that time in the sun today (Phoenix AZ 97 deg ambient / 78 deg water temp) will help to clarify but I'm still eager for your opinions and advice. Pool needs to be swim-able for Friday.
Have you treated the water this morning and what are your readings? Some of the cheaper shocks out on the market will do what your describing but it could also do that if you had a high bacteria count.
Keep the pump circulating and make sure the filter is kept clean to keep your turnover up. If you have some water clairifier add only the amount instructed the bottle.
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Sharkman
Thank you for your reply. I tried to prime the hose with no better results. I watched a few youtube video how to prime the hose, so i know i've done it correctly. Any other ideas? The pump is half empty when the hose and vac is connected. I manually release air from the sand filter, but it keep accumulation back.
What brand of pump is on this system and is the leaf strainer basket cracked or have holes in it? Debris will sometimes get past the basket and plug the impellar and restrict the pump.
How old is the equipment? Has the sand filter been backwashed? What condition is the sand in the filter in?
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ozone can actually have a NEGATIVE effect in a chlorine system since the two tend to destroy each other so it can acutally increase chlorine demand in some cases.
Also, ozone is a toxic gas and there should be no residual in the water and that is often not the case in the less expensive units where ozone concentration can get high right at the water surface (where the bathers are breathing it in!)
Ozone is of marginally more benefit when using bromne since it will oxidize bromide into hypobromous acid but it also has a tendency to oxidize bromide into bromate too. Bromates are not renewable (cannot be converted back into hypobromous acid like bromide can) and are suspected carcinogens when ingested.
With all that being said, ozone can help reduce sanitizer demand in a well designed system but such systems are rare.
I would be interested in seeing some information supporting the theory that chlorine and ozone will destroy each other. Ozone is nothing more than a oxygen molecule with a third atom and does not destroy bromine or chlorine. Bromate are created when the bromine molecule comes into contact with a living bacteria this does not happen when it comes into contact with another oxidizer.
Ozone can be toxic in high levels so is chlorine and bromine. These oxidizers have to be by theyre very nature as they are meant to kill a living organism. Used properly they do an excellent job of killing bacteria in a warm water environment. My number one priority for my customers is that theyre spas are safe for theyre families to use and anything such as an ozonator that can help insure that is a good thing in my opinion. We arent talking about a system that is costing the customer $2000 as they did in the begining and for what they sell for they are well worth theyre price.
The theory that properly installed ozone systems are very rare is not true you are always going to have junk being peddled in any industry but there are many more good manufacturers out there than there are bad.
I just want to take a moment and point out, this conversation is a perfect example of why customers are sometimes so confused. Here we have several dealers completely disagreeing with another- who is the customer to believe when the professionals can't even agree?
The amount of misinformation in the industry shouldn't exist on something that's been in the wild so long.
I think it's because we're all going on personal observation, marketing material info, with a bit of pseudo science, where a little information can be a dangerous thing.
I'd love to see a peer reviewed study of O3 use in spa's.
Take care,
~Ben
PS- Waterbear, about off gassing- I have some doozies to tell back in the 80's.
There is plenty of hard facts available to anyone who wants to do the homework. The Center for Disease control has a lot of information on ozone as a disinfectant being used on everything from pools to hospital tools. The World Health Organization also has plenty of info on this. I could go on with other sources. I dont go off of marketing material or pseudo science and of course each one of us will use personal observation. Some of the arguments being against ozone just arent correct.
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ozone can actually have a NEGATIVE effect in a chlorine system since the two tend to destroy each other so it can acutally increase chlorine demand in some cases.
Also, ozone is a toxic gas and there should be no residual in the water and that is often not the case in the less expensive units where ozone concentration can get high right at the water surface (where the bathers are breathing it in!)
Ozone is of marginally more benefit when using bromne since it will oxidize bromide into hypobromous acid but it also has a tendency to oxidize bromide into bromate too. Bromates are not renewable (cannot be converted back into hypobromous acid like bromide can) and are suspected carcinogens when ingested.
With all that being said, ozone can help reduce sanitizer demand in a well designed system but such systems are rare.
I would be interested in seeing some information supporting the theory that chlorine and ozone will destroy each other. Ozone is nothing more than a oxygen molecule with a third atom and does not destroy bromine or chlorine. Bromate are created when the bromine molecule comes into contact with a living bacteria this does not happen when it comes into contact with another oxidizer.
Ozone can be toxic in high levels so is chlorine and bromine. These oxidizers have to be by theyre very nature as they are meant to kill a living organism. Used properly they do an excellent job of killing bacteria in a warm water environment. My number one priority for my customers is that theyre spas are safe for theyre families to use and anything such as an ozonator that can help insure that is a good thing in my opinion. We arent talking about a system that is costing the customer $2000 as they did in the begining and for what they sell for they are well worth theyre price.
The theory that properly installed ozone systems are very rare is not true you are always going to have junk being peddled in any industry but there are many more good manufacturers out there than there are bad.
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Can anyone produce an independent peer reviewed scientific study showing ozone has any effect on a spa?
Please tell me you have one, I'd love to read it.
My observations are just that, observations. Granted, I've made over 40,000 observations over the last 20+ years.
Back to the original question...
Is ozone necessary?
Not at all.
As I said it isnt necessary but it is beneficial. Asking if ozone has any effect on a spa is like asking if chlorine or bromine has an effect on a spa. It is an oxidizer just as bothe chlorine and bromine are.
I think there's a bit more to it that that. There must be a threshold it must meet to be effective. But while eliminating a few bacteria might be "beneficial," if you eliminate a few hundred out of a few hundred thousand, how much are you really helping? Remember, Ozone is also breaking down the sanitizer in the spa as well as oxidizing bacteria.
Ozone is doing nothing for approx 20 hours a day in the spa he's considering. It's my opinion, that in the four out of twenty four hours, the ozone won't do enough to make you realize if you have one or not. Chemically speaking, you'll be doing exactly the same routine, with or without it.
If you have an ozonator in a spa that uses a two-speed pump to pull it in, I'd suggest unplugging the ozonator for a few day's, and see if you notice any difference. I never have. Neither has any customer ever mentioned they'd noticed a difference upon disocering their ozonator is broken. That's all I have as "proof" of the effectiveness of ozone in spa's that hardly use them.
Conversely, in spa's that use a 24hour circ pump, I have several customers that have been able to detect when their ozonators broke, despite the fact they were still seeing air-bubbles.
There is more to it than that it just depends on how deep you want to get into water chemistry and as I would explain to any customer that wants to use ozone the more you circulate a spa or pool the more you will benefit from it. One benefit you get from ozone is the kill time of ozone over other sanitizers. Ozone kills crypto and other waterborne bacteria on contact where the kill times for chlorine in high levels is more than 10 hours and at acceptable levels of up to 24 hours. This is why many health departments are requiring ozone to be installed on public pools to prevent crypto outbreaks.
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Can anyone produce an independent peer reviewed scientific study showing ozone has any effect on a spa?
Please tell me you have one, I'd love to read it.
My observations are just that, observations. Granted, I've made over 40,000 observations over the last 20+ years.
Back to the original question...
Is ozone necessary?
Not at all.
As I said it isnt necessary but it is beneficial. Asking if ozone has any effect on a spa is like asking if chlorine or bromine has an effect on a spa. It is an oxidizer just as bothe chlorine and bromine are.
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Hello everyone,
I'm am new to this forum and pools. I start taking care of my mothers inground pool. The size of e pool is about 40,000 gal. I am having problems when I connect the vacuum to the pump to clean the bottom. The vacuum barely move and the pressure gaug on the sand filter shows almost no pressure. If the hose is remove from thewater intake which also serves as a skimmer, the pressure shots up to about 15psi. I have tried to disconnect only the vacuum and left the long hose in the water thinking maybe the vacuum is no good. The pressure remained low. Any suggestions why the pressure is lost when the vacuum and hose is connected? Thank you.
Are you priming the hose before you connect it to the skimmer? You prime the hose by dropping the vac with the hose and pole attached into the pool and then grab the hose above the water line and begin pushing the hose below the water line to fill the hose with water and force all air out of it. If done properly when you get to the end of the hose water should be coming out. Then plug the hose into the skimmer. If you lose suction you may have a hole in the hose or an obstruction in the hose.
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Can anyone produce an independent peer reviewed scientific study showing ozone has any effect on a spa?
Is it your opinion that ozone doesnt?
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I just serviced a 2 year old jacuzzi (J200???) spa and i must say i was shocked...
the skirt was made of slats of synthetic wood which I dont have a problem with, but it was just built with strips of plastic stapled on to it and it fell apart when i took it off...
there was virtually no insulation at all
no shut off valves on the lines.
and some no name electronic system (with a faulty board)...
Is this indicative if the current Jacuzzi brand???? they used to be robust and built to a standard... please tell me i just came across some poor copy or an anomalous bad Friday job...
It looked great from the outside, but my god if this is the current Jacuzzi no wonder they are falling by the wayside. It was worse than a Costco Strong spa!!! and that is saying something...
By the way can you buy this board anywhere or am I just better to retrofit it for a decent Balboa system and call it a day???
Ive never been a big fan of Jacuzzi but their quality has suffered the last 10 years. Even when they built their cabinets from wood slats they would brad nail them to a sheet of plastice that wrapped the spa and every time you removed it youd spend an hour just reattaching slats that would fall off. I havent seen any of their newer spas with anything other than a balboa control but I can check for you. Im a Jacuzzi warranty center. Can you get me a serial number off the tub or the chip code off the board?
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I love ozone, but in that spa, waste of time, in my opinion.
Ozone is a fine oxidizer, but, it leaves behind no residual. For it to be effective, it must be constantly introduced. And the Hot Spot utilizes a large 2 speed jet pump, that will, at most, only be running 4-6 hours a day. I don't think you'd see much, if any, benefit from an ozonator in any spa that doesn't use a 24 circ pump to pull in the ozone 24/7.
I disagree. During times of non use as long as you sanitize properly after each use, an ozonator will reduce inbetween use additions of sanitizer. In other words when your away for a few days and not able to add sanitizer an ozonator will help keep your water crisper and cleaner than not having one.
I would have to agree with spa guru. An ozonator is beneficial on any spa as long as it is used with a bromine or chlorine. The ozonator will allow you to reduce your sanitizer levels and you will use less. The ozonator isnt a neccesity, you can operate any spa with chemicals.
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This is another example of why it is so critical that homeowners test their spa regularly. It insures that your spa is sanitized properly and all of the alternatives that are pushed are a waste of money. I would like to say however to itchy and scratchy you have had a bad experience with a local dealer and that is something that I hate to hear it hurts all of us in the pool and spa business when we have dealers who are giving bad info out. I would still not rule out finding a reputable shop in your area. the information you can get from a knowledgable shop with a water analysis lab is invaluable. most of these types of stores can also give you a printout of instructions based on your water condition. Im glad to hear that you got it cleared up and your wife should not have any reason to be concerned as long as you maintain a sanitizer rezidual.
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I am having a problem with fine white powder coating all of the surfaces in my older above ground blue fiberglass spa, it is nearly perfect in consistancy under 50 power it appears to be crystalin in nature and has clear grains like ground glass and sparkles some in sun light heat tested around 5 grams (alot) only discolors brown under heat on a piece of tin foil on the stove, since it appreared last year and I cleaned out the spa several times this year I have drained and cleaned the spa twice in a month and it is back agian ? there has never been any glass broken that could be subject to the pump impellor milling it down im thinking there may be a problem with the original heater or ozonator, (I use gas now) if they have some sort of glass or quartz like element anyone have any idea what this stuff could be?
From what your describing it sounds like you have a high calcium content in your water. Calcium will precipitate out of hot water faster than cold water. It is not uncommon in areas with hard water to have calcium buildup on the spa surface after heating. Make sure you keep your ph and alkalinity in balance and add a scale inhibitor to the spa weekly. The scale inhibitor will not remove the calcium but will take away its ability to bond to the surface of the spa. It will be normal after initial fillup to have calcium settle out on the bottom. This is a good thing as you can vacuum it out. The last thing you want is the calcium sticking to the sides of the spa. Also make sure you are not using any of the ph buffering chemicals that are out on the market. These are meant to help prevent ph bounce but in high calcium areas this will force all of the calcium out and you will have a mess on your hands.
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So quantity is more important than quality?
Isnt Brulan proof of that?
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That is possibly your most meaningful post!
I second that opinion.
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The Elite is an great brand as it is made by MaaX the same company that makes Coleman. If you ever need parts just find a local Elite or Coleman dealer. Good job
The spa he is reffering to is built by Hydro spa not Maxx.
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I have that part just go to my website www.spasauna.com and contact us. My name is Brandon. I just had someone come in for that part and I will be gladly able to locate that for you.
Whar brand of jet is that off of?
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Ive gone to some of the big suppliers here but no luck. Ive been trying to find them online somewhere hopeuflly but everyone has a different name for them.
They are different. Ive been in this bussiness 20 years and I've never seen a style like that.
I'll look through some of my parts books and see if I can find anything like them.
Its possible that they were made by a company that is out of business.
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Thanks for the reply....
All of the pool lines are functioning well, except for the cleaner line. If I switch to just one of the skimmers and attach the manual vacuum hose, whoosh! lots of suction! The return lines are very strong as well.
I'm almost certain that there is an obstruction (acorn? tree branch? brother-in-law's wallet?) stuck in there holding things up. I really want to snake the line, but I don't want to break anything. Any of the repair folks around here ever deal with thins kind of issue?
It does sound like youve got a blockage. You cant usually run a snake through the line because the 90 degree elbows used to plumb a pool system are not like the sweep 90s in your home plumbing. If you have a local hardware store go down and look in their plumbing department for a drain jet. Its a attatchment for a garden hose that you place inside the plumbing coming into the suction pipe on the pump and then close off all the lines except the vac line. when you turn the water on it blows the attatchment up so it seal off the line and then forces the pressure backwards and hopefully forces out whatever is lodged in there. Good luck.
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help? i don't have 6k to replaster my old pool. can i paint or epoxy it? will it hold up? or should i just save up for new plaster? the surface is rough and stained and it looks dirty but no major cracks or leaks. any help or info would be greatly appreciated. thanks for your time.
You can paint the pool but it will be a temporary bandaid. You will be lucky in most cases to get more than 2 or three years out of a good pool paint job. The paint will get oxidized by your pool chemicals and over time it does rub off on people that rub against the sides. If its not unbearable to live with and it were my pool I would live with it and start saving up for a new plaster job. Is the roughness from etching or scale buildup?
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No matter what is developed there will always be someone selling against it and saying, "thats not the best way to do it." Everyone looks at things differently and when I tell people what I think is best I dont think for one second that everyone is going to agree with my opinion or that they should for that matter. I have been wrong, ONCE.
Thats what makes these debates great. -
They are jet nozzles for a gunite jet. Do you have any local pool or spa shops in your area that build gunite spas? There are a lot of different brands of jets out there so I would take those into a local shop so you get the right thread size.
Is Ozone Necessary?
in Portable Hot Tubs & Spas
Posted
Thats what I thought.