Jim_The_Jim

true but what I found was http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/index.html srg Erick Selberg is nothing more than a con artist and thief. We gave him all of his money back and he still ripped off the GFCI and chemicals from us. If you really want to find out about him, do a search on google for "The Erik Scam" and read it. He has also been stealing air time from the cell phone company, and sharing ways to do that. He thinks he is special and deserves to steal from companies. While you are at it go and read about my brother over on http://ripoffreport.com/reports/0/232/ripoff0232533.htm When you stand for good and the truth, just as it states in the Bible, people will despise you. Wicked people always despise those of us who are trying to follow the truth. Since most of the spa industry is under the influence of money and the end results of greed, you can understand why I am so maligned by these scum bags. When you put the obvious truth in front of them, they will try to scar my reputation. They will never talk about spa design or engineering with me or the ANSI or child safety, but they will only try to smear my good name. They will never talk about the crap they sell, but only to try and degrade my good name. That is what I am up against and yet, I am still here fighting for the truth in the snake pit of the spa industry. What is wrong with the spa industry is a total lack of ethics and the deception used to sell hot tubs to people who have no idea what they are buying. I am against most spa companies who are not building the spas to safety standards and to common engineering principles of reliably and strength. Instead they are making them as cheaply as possible, selling them for high profits, and the result is a lot of really upset people telling all their friends to not buy hot tubs, because of this crap falling apart all across the country.

true but what I found was http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/index.html srg Erick Selberg is nothing more than a con artist and theif. We gave him all of his money back and he still ripped off the GFCI and chemicals from us. If you really want to find out about him, do a search on google for "The Erik Scam" and read it. He has also been stealing air time from the cell phone company, and sharing ways to do that. He thinks he is special and deserves to steal from companies.

If you want a Cal Spa buy from 2003 or later. You should be able to get one for from $500 to $700 if you look on Ebay.

If you take the time to go out and ask everybody you know, you will find that all of those spas you think are so good are junk. So, if you are going to buy junk anyway, why spend so much money for it. Go to Costco and buy the same quality or better for about $4,000 to $6,000 savings. Really, get smart and start asking people everywere, your boss, your freinds, your employees, co workers, church members, and any friends and find out what their real spa experience is. This site is full of sales people pretending to be spa owners, incase you have not figured that out yet. Wake up!

However, have you looked at the difference in a real Hot Spring from Jon Watkins and the junk they make now. Not even close to the same quality. Masco is a huge sociopath corporation and they don't give a darn about you as a human being.

No , that's OK I know they are one of the top brands. Actually, I would love to support the local economy and buy homegrown. Just not sure they are the right fit for me. The Caldera pricing makes it hard to resist. It seems to be way more bang for the buck. I really hate to buy a California product. I just moved from there to escape it all, but I'll try and put that aside for now Hey Jim....go play in a snowdrift or something. Actually, they have degraded the product over the years. They seem to have a lot of shell cracks these days.

I've seen thermaly closed spas frozen also, about a 50/50 mix here. Must be different in Colorado where it freezes slow. I don't think Roger has seen a real thermally closed spa. Anyway, this guy hires a "part time" service guy to go and fix his spa. After $1500 and the spa being dug out half way finding one leak after another, he finally decides to call a real professional. The insurance gave him about $3K for his value on his full foam spa. If you have a spa like this in cold climates, you need to get a "REPLACEMENT VALUE" insurance policy on it. Not just insurance on a used spa. As soon as most spa hit the deck, they are devalued by 30%. A real thermally closed design does not allow any cold air to enter the warm air chamber. It gives you a long time until it freezes. Because the hot water vessel sitting in the middle of the cabinet, is just like having a huge "hot water bottle" sitting there keeping the pipes warm. In a full foam spa the pipes in the equipment area are exposed to cold, so that is where they freeze first. Then they crack and break letting the water out, except that not all the water escapes and much of the "lower end' of the spa is ruined, anywhere there is solid fittings. In a thermally closed design, even when they freeze after many days, they are 1/4 the cost to fix, because the plumbing is not hidden in foam. There is no digging and the leaks are obvious and easy to find.

Stay far away from full foam. You will regret it.

As with most absolute statements, this is wrong. That would suggest that ice has no compressibility which is absolutely wrong. It is true that most pipes and other things cannot handle the pressure. However, this issue gets complicated very quickly due to the fact that water can form different crystalline structures (called phases) under different pressure and temperature conditions. Here is link that discusses more about the properties of water than you probably care to know: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ There is no known material used in the construction of spas, that can withstand ice without either expanding, distorting bending, or breaking. There has to be a place for the expansion to take place.

Save it for the Judge, Jimbo. We have seen your warranty work close up. How about the Erik Selberg mess. Send the customer a defective, re-labled, diverter equipped, Phoenix tub, then screw with him for weeks on end until he finally tells you to pick it up and charges back his credit card. I also remember the proud proclamations on your own "forum" to the effect that if someone demands what they are entitled to or feels so aggrieved as to dare to make a complaint to the BBB (of which you are supposedly a member), they get the absolute bare minimum of "warranty compliance" and nothing more. (and I can just imagine what that means in your brain) Oh yes, we are well aware of the H*ven Warranty Program. Once again, I'll opt for the warranty from the godless corporation and take my chances! If someone lies to the BBB in order to steal from us, they get what is on the contract. When you buy a Hot Spring spa that is all you get no matter what and if the spa is one day out of warranty try to get it fixed. Go ahead and try. I get complaints all the time from their owners with cracked out shells and just out of warranty. I just sold a cover to one, and the guy is leaving the spa wiht his house so he doesn't have to look at it any longer. If you want to talk with him, I would be glad to put you in contact with him. He really got screwed. Most of the time we take care of issues where the customers have screwed up and it is not remotely a warranty. You are really a stupid man if you can't understand that. If you are going to continue to post lies then you are going to get the truth in your face. *** head!

I found beer cans and trash in one of their spas that we dug out in the foam to find a leak.

Save it for the Judge, Jimbo. We have seen your warranty work close up. How about the Erik Selberg mess. Send the customer a defective, re-labled, diverter equipped, Phoenix tub, then screw with him for weeks on end until he finally tells you to pick it up and charges back his credit card. I also remember the proud proclamations on your own "forum" to the effect that if someone demands what they are entitled to or feels so aggrieved as to dare to make a complaint to the BBB (of which you are supposedly a member), they get the absolute bare minimum of "warranty compliance" and nothing more. (and I can just imagine what that means in your brain) Oh yes, we are well aware of the H*ven Warranty Program. Once again, I'll opt for the warranty from the godless corporation and take my chances! Erik tried to steal the spa from us. We had service out the next day and found that this jerk had sabotaged the spa. You can do a search and read about it. "The Erik Scam" on any search engine. You are really a very dumb person.

It has to do with the fill of the pipe and the pressure of the water as it expands. If there is no relief then it breaks things. Back in the Civil war time they had a bunch of cannon balls siting around with black powder in them. Black powder becomes very unstable as it sits around for a long time. So, to destroy these dangerous balls of black powder, they drilled a hole carefully and filled them with water. Then plugged the hole. Set the ball out side in the winter and it cracked open. These were steel balls. There is nothing in this world that can contain the expansion of water, not even diamonds, steel, or titananium. It is "something about the laws of physics." I think it would be an interesting test.

This place in Colorado is considered to be the "icebox" of the country. It is very high in the mountains. Even in summer it snows there some times. There is no spa on earth in which the pumps will stay together when completely frozen. The heaters will also crack and the jets will also break. Any parts with solid PVC or Solid Plastic will break. It is the laws of physics. http://www.soundclick.com/havenhead

You have spammed this BS all over the net, and you know that many engineers have evaluated this test as impractical and has almost nothing to do with the real world. Your test was done with a 115V spa with a circ pump that you no longer use, and with a 1.5 hp (1.65) and no wind, no people (so no practical value), no 10 minute clean out at the end of each use, and in winter a 115V spa loses temperature fast, so the ending temperature was not recorded. It is concocted to be a sales pitch. Then you apply this misinformation to 240V spas and tell people what there electric consumption will be based upon BS. I believe that your need to sell this to others has blinded you to the truth. The Spa Challenge is pretty clear that the spas are all used at the same time for the same duration and under the same weather conditions of wind by independent people not in the spa industry. The company I was going to use is an independent company in the mountains of Colorado to conduct the test and the entire test on 24 hours a day web cam so that no BS is allowed. The wet testers have no association with the spa industry and are bonified lay consumers. They would give a report on every spa that they sat in and what they liked and disliked. I believe that Hot Spring spas would fail this test drastically.

Hey, that would be us! Odd how that 'cover control' thing comes up, that was Roger's big gripe a couple of years ago. As for still air, pfui. You want wind, you have pay for wind machines. Either way, you need a controlled environment so that every spa is equally windblown. Here are some comments, taken from Page 1 of the Final Report, Thermal Performance Test of Spas, conducted by the Alberta Research Council (BTW, how come nobody reads page 1?) "...Every possible means was taken to ensure that the tests were conducted under similar conditions for all participating products." "All the spas were purchased at random from retail locations by the ARC and shipped to the testing facility." That includes our two units. They were purchased as is, off the floor as a 'blind purchase' and we had no chance to 'load' them. If ours came with a thick cover, and the others didn't, that's important data for the consumer. "The tests were performed in a controlled environment and were not intended to represent an actual 'field' application where wind, sunlight, and product placement could influence the actual performance... It is felt however that such [scientifically controlled] tests do reflect the relative performance of the tested products." "there are several differences in the spas that complicate the evaluation. Some of these differences are: variation in spa volumes; different heating and filtering systems...; and small variations in air temperatures during the tests. That is why letters were sent out to ever spa company to participate in the side by side testing. I finally realized that all these spa companies are "chicken" to do any side by side testing. The Spashopperguide.com Presents! The Official Spa Challenge! For years we have had this challenge out to the spa industry and no one has bothered to respond. I think that a test is the most powerful educational tool there is for evaluating spas. Any spa company who wants to prove, beyond any doubt the reliability and energy efficiency and user appreciation of their products, should participate in this challenge. This is the "stock car race" of the spa industry. I think that any spa company who advertises that they have energy efficiency or any of the standard sales presentations, that this challenge would help you to sell more products. The competitors of this challenge will know what they need to do to improve the products for the next generation of models they produce. This is now an official challenge to any and all spa manufacturers or suppliers. On *December 1, 2005 through March 1, 2006, we are offering a spa engineering challenge to all spa manufacturers who are willing to participate. This is a test of spas in severe cold conditions of the mountains of Colorado. We will be holding the "Spa Challenge" that will be conducted by an independent company. We will most likely use an independent service company in good standing with the Better Business Bureau. I will be researching this to find the best possible company. Each spa company will be notified of this challenge and an official reply will be published as well. Any spa company that does not answer this challenge will also be noted and listed as spa companies who refused the challenge. A copy of the official notification of the Spa Challenge will be published in Aqua Magazine as well as the responses from the spa companies. If you refuse this challenge, you will be losing out on a tremendous opportunity to put your product up against the competition and the world will know that you refused the challenge. There is a modest entry fee to pay for the testing. The deadline for entry into The Official Spa Challenge is Sept 1, 2005. The rules of the challenge are as follows. 1. Each spa manufacturer is to deliver and set up one or more of your spas to a testing ground near Fraser, Colorado (or any other Colorado mountain town we choose). You may bring no more than three models to fit into three different categories and only one spa in each category. Each participating spa manufacturer will have it set up and running by December 1, 2005. Each spa company will pay an entry fee of $7,000 per spa and supply a spa for testing with each entry. The spa must be a standard model with the same equipment and set up as a production model. You can bring the spa up anytime in November, 2005 and get it going and have any bugs worked out over the month of November. This is to insure that any mechanical concerns are taken care of before the testing begins. 2. Electric kilowatt meters will be placed on all spas, the same brand of meter from the same manufacturer on each spa. After the test the meters will be tested for calibration and any variances will be noted and used to determine the actual kilowatts used. 3. On December 1, 2005, and after the spa is up and running, with steps and cover lift in place the manufacturer's representative will not be allowed to touch the spa or be within 100 feet of their spas until the test is over. This is to simulate actual use by consumers. The instructions for use will be explained to the independent testing company employee in charge of maintaining your spa. You will furnish your standard covers for the spas as well. If the spa breaks down and becomes not fully functional, it will be eliminated from the challenge and forfeit any awards. 3. This test is for comparison of energy efficiency (usage), freeze protection, reliability, freeze down time, cost to repair freeze damage and for subjective opinions by a group of spa users, who are independent of any spa company. 4. Each spa will be tested each day, all spas to have cover's removed at the same time, for 20 minutes of jets running and 20 minutes of soaking. The spas will be used by two to four people at each test. There will be clocks set by each spa to start and stop the spas and to tell the bathers when to get out and cover the spas, per manufacturer's instructions. The time of use will be at 8 PM each evening until 8:40 PM. This is to simulate an average use time and so all spas are used at the same time each day. If a tester participant is not available , then their alternate will take their place. 5. Each of the bathers will test different spas to a maximum of 20 spas, each night for the duration of the test. If there are twenty spas, then each night they will test a different spa brand and model giving three separate testing of each spa being evaluated. At the end of each bathing wet test, the bathers will be asked to answer questions about the test. 6. The testing company will be keeping data on each spa each day, including the temperature of the spa tested with an accurate thermometer, both before the bather's get in and immediately after the bathers get out of the individual spas. A daily log will be kept for each spa noting the times and temperatures. The weather conditions will be monitored and noted four times a day for accurate indications of humidity, wind and outside temperature. A weather station will be placed on the property with those measuring devices used for all spas. Any natural power outages will be logged and each spa will be checked and re-programmed as necessary to adjust the temperature and filter times if needed. 7. In the event of a severe weather storm (or power outage) that exceeds the limits of the bathers physical ability to use the spas, the spas will not be used that day until the next available 8 PM schedule. The covers will remain on and locked for the duration of any storm conditions. However the spas will be checked for normal maintenance, such as to see if the cover remained in place, and if it is still operating. This is to simulate actual use at someone's home. 8. Accurate records will be kept on each spa including the conditions of the water. If the water becomes cloudy or if the water needs special care to keep it clean will also be monitored. The spas will be cared for exactly as the manufacturer recommends. All of the two speed filtering spa will be set to filter 4 hours twice a day minimum. All of the spas with 24 hour filtering will be set to follow the manufacturer's recommendation on filtering with the jet pumps per day. 9. At the end of January, exactly midnight February 1 2004, the power will be turned off on each spa at the exact same moment. There will be a main disconnect on several spas and all spas will have power turned off at the same instant. 10. During the freeze down time test, the spa water temperature will be checked on every spa twice a day at 8 AM and 8 PM. The check will be a brief opening of the cover for a temperature check of the water with the same infrared thermometer used on all spas. The temperature will be logged. 11. The spas will be allowed to freeze and break. The duration of the time until freeze and break will be a major part of this test. The first ones to freeze vs the last ones to freeze. Each spa will be checked hourly until they are frozen and start leaking from broken fittings. The time of the breakdown of the spa will be logged. 12. As soon as the bathing testing is over after Feb. 1, 2005 , each testing bather will give a subjective opinion of the spas. They will be asked a series of questions about the spas and will be given the opportunity to choose their favorite models and tell why. 13. The totals of the electric consumption will be tallied as well, and each spa in each category will be evaluated. 14. Each spa will be repaired back to fully functioning by an independent service company, who will issue invoices for the repairs. The spa repair company will not be allowed to get parts directly from the factory, but from a dealer or a spa parts supply store as is normal. The parts will be marked up to a normal margin that the independent service company uses. All records will be audited by a CPA for accuracy. 15. The maximum time allowed to get all the frozen spas repaired will be three months. Each of the spas will be allowed to be tented and repaired in a heated room if needed. The tenting will be a framed in enclosure with insulated walls on wheels, that can be placed over each freeze damaged spa and heated with a safe propane heater. Photographs of the repairs will be taken for records. 16. There will be awards issued to the winners in each category of spa. (See the Awards section on the next page.). There are to be three categories of spas, based upon size and watts of total horsepower. The awards will be for subjective observations by the users who will vote for their favorite spa and second favorite model these questions will be concerning comfort, quiet operation, and therapy, an award for the best energy efficiency in each category, and an award for the longest time before freezing the water in the spa and finally an award for the least expensive to repair in each category. *If for any of the establised causes, (see bylaw clauses) such a low participation, the test may be modified, postponed or cancelled, however all standards for objectiveness will be evaluated at that time

How come better than 90% of the Haven Spas never have any warranty issues? Answer; Quality control, testing the spas, and using correct engineering. Knock em out deep and sell em cheap is not the way to have happy customers, neither is delivering a spa that you know needs work.

Exactly. Anyone who wants to avoid the hassle of self-service should consider service and support before they buy. If you are not prepaired to take care of some of the service issues yourself, either by doing the work, or by hiring professionals, then don't buy them. But considering that the Hydro is about 4 to 6 thousand less than a Sundance, you could pay a service guy at 100 dollars per hour for 40 hours of work until you reach the difference in savings. The obvious is easily obvious on this.

What parts of the sales pitches got you to think these were good spas? Both are made pretty cheaply. Have you looked at other spas. Take a look at Arctic and you will see a night and day difference. Then keep on looking. Both use a cheap shell construction and stuff it with foam to hold it up. When they leadk they are a night mare to fix. Exclusive and expensive parts that cost up to 5 times what normal parts cost. D1 uses the cheapest brand of jets there is.

My son who is now 21 years old has been repairing and building hot tubs for 11 years. He loves all the junky spas out there sold by other companies. Guess why? He came to me one day and said, he has job security because of those tubs. He has his own spa repair business and is doing well. Do you know that our first tubs we delivered nearly 10 years ago are still running on the same equipment. That is because we are very particular about the spas we sell. We do not accept any blemishes nor do we accept any defects. We only use the best plumbing pipes and the best brands of jets. We put in steel control boxes and pay a premium for them because cheap plastic catches on fire. We use 2x4 frames because it is stronger than any cabinet. We use pressure treated. We use thermally closed design, on the insulation because it is the only design that works for all climates and is far superior to full foam. I have participated in the warranty work for 17 different spa brands and ran a fix em all service center in Colorado for over 12 years. Our spas are based upon not following other people's mistakes. One of our reps has been repairing spas for 24 years. If you want to contact him and find out what the differences are in our spas, that would probably wake you up to the truth.

One minor correction, I'm not THE owner, but one of two owners................. just thought I'd throw that in to keep this train wreck rolling along p.s. Personally, I think Ideal makes a fine cover. We sold them for many years, and their cover was one of about 12 different brands we used to design and develop our cover. Kinda funny.......... I'm in violation of the board guidelines, and yet the owners of this board asked me to be a moderator.....dang, I should run fo da presidential office! Why continue with the same design as has been around forever? If you are going to design a better cover, why make it like all the rest and copy them? Personally, from seeing many of your postings, you are just all about money and not much else on these forums. If you didn't get free advertising for you overpriced products, you would not be here. On the other hand I changed occupations to get into the spa industry, because of my love of hot tub therapy. I don't like you and probably never will, because you are not honest with yourself. People who try to be something they are not, are not usually happy people. You think you are so clever for putting one over on these board owners, but there is one person you forgot about, you. You have to look in the mirror and face yourself and God. Andy is the guy who decided that he wanted to ruin my spa sales, so he started lying to my spa shoppers on his site, forum and emails. Since then, he continues with the same level of behavior. People without ethics are ruining our country. They asked you to moderate after you put up those disgusting photos from some non traceable IP. Just like you did on other forums so you can advertise there. http://www.soundclick.com/havenhead

You might want to read what she wants. Every spa brand has a 3 or 4 person hot tub in the 5 ft by 7 foot size. She wants 6 person. You can easily fit up to 9 people in a 7 by 5 foot wood tub. There is over 18 feet of wall space. Gene Trumbull is a fellow who has eyes, brain and a lot of mechanical experience, building homes as I recall. He went out shopping for a hot tub and got sick of sales people and BS, so he designed a really cool hot tub. Then he realized that he could sell the concept of this design to others. It is made from bricks. He discovered a way to put the jets and fittings in with sleeves. It is really clever. http://www.soundclick.com/havenhead

Agree! God Bless YOU!

I agree!

Making the wife happy is an excellent idea!