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Matt38

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  1. Years ago we had a discussion on the safety of chlorine. I know generally you guys like chlorine and so do I. After reading this AMA on reddit and digging down into the publications, my concern about chlorine has resurfaced. Are you up on the latest research and what is your interpretation? The researcher suggests that silver ion may be a safer alternative (buried in the responses). Not being an experimentalist, I'm not able to quickly quantify the bladder cancer risk. I don't mind spending a much greater amount of money on frequent water and silver ion cartridge changes, but I'm wondering if those have their own unknown and not well discussed risk from the MPS. I realize it still uses chlorine, but much much less. https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/4wvrjd/american_chemical_society_ama_i_am_susan_d/ edit:here is the referenced article on bladder cancer http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/165/2/148.abstract It's very easy to focus on things that don't pose very much risk based on statements like "twice the risk" even if you are still much more likley to get hit by lightning. Thanks! Matt
  2. I looked but could not find one either. I like having the extra privacy on that side of my spa. Maybe you should just pull it off and not use a lifter at all? Fold it over and then walk behind it and pull it down. South seas spas' parent company is Artesian Spas in case you need to service/parts and are looking for the correct dealer.
  3. It has been 7 years since I commissioned my tub. I can't tell you how many times I've read your posts for help. Even if one forgets this forum exist and searches google for a few simple words, your posts pop up with detailed advice far beyond what anybody would expect a mortal man/woman to supply. If you don't consider yourself a philanthropist, well I'm here to let you know that while you have many posts to go to compete with the likes of Gandhi or Mother Theresa, the hot tub gods will certainly bless your jets. Best, Matt
  4. Your hot tub is exciting the natural frequency of your neighbor's home. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_frequency It's possible the wood deck is being excited by the hot tub producing just the right frequency that your neighbor's home needs to resonate (drum analogy above is good). your deck is the speaker, and your hot tub is the voice coil (magnet thing at bottom of speaker). An analogy is your hot tub and deck is the striker while your neighbor's house is the triangle (think musical instrument). Basically the frequency of sound waves your deck/hot tub combo make, couples with his home and perturbs its natural frequency. You need to change the natural frequency of your deck/hot tub combo and or change the natural frequency of your neighbor's house. Imagine giving a large and long wind chime tube a thump. It rings at it's natural frequency (this is your deck/hot tub combo). Those sound waves then proceed to thump his house and it rings itself. Imagine what happens when you grab the tube on either end or in the middle and give it a thump. The frequency is higher and amplitude is reduced. You can't mess with your neighbor's home, but you can attempt to not excite its natural frequency. It's possible the hot tub all on its own is generating the frequency, but changing the stiffness of what it's sitting on will likely change that. None of this may work, but it's pretty cheap to try. 1. Look for the largest unsupported span of your deck. 2. Have your neighbor call you on his phone and locate himself in the offended location. 3. Run the hot tub in the manner that offends him 4. Tune your deck by jamming columns under the largest unsupported span or under your hot tub. 5. Maybe you will be able to tune your deck and hot tub combo such that the sound waves they generate won't excite his home's natural frequency. Adding mass to his wall would change the natural frequency too (very long shot) and possibly fix the problem if indeed it's the wall and not the floor. Second story floors have a lot of stiffness due to their requirement to carry the load, so it's likely the exterior wall that is line of site with your tub. have him push on the lower story wall and his house mate listen for the noise. Maybe he could put a heavy wall ornament in place and dampen the vibration/sound.
  5. Well.... I made it three months before it turned into lemonade! Got sick for five days and ignored it. Went to check on it after five days and it literally looked like lemonade. Big dose of MPS did nothing for it. Decided to change water, filter and N2. Cl might have restored it, but I didn't think to see what it would do before dumping the water. Filter did not look too bad when I pulled it, but it might have been saturated. This next go around I'm going to hit it with Dichlor once a month and see if I can go four months. If not, three months will be good enough for me. Maybe a filter clean at two months is what I needed, but I hate cleaning filters. Thanks.
  6. So it has been almost three months now. Other than putting 1 tbsp of dichlor (225 gal tub) in on day one, I have only added MPS and a bit of sodium bicarbonate on three occasions to bump up the alkalinity. The water remains crystal clear and nearly odorless (the MPS has it's own faint smell I think). I much prefer N2 over the bleach (which I believe to be a great method too). For the past couple months the tub has been used five nights a week by two people for ~25min. My MPS consumption has gone up to about 1.25# a month due to heavier use. I have had almost no problem with deposits on the side of the tub, but on a handful of occasions some grime has come out of solution on the side with easy clean up. I'll point out that both the people using this tub don't use make up, hair conditions, or slimy deodorant. I use Dr. Bronner's Castile soap to shave, wash body and wash hair and then I use mineral salt deodorant which works better than "normal" deodorant for me. This may be why I'm not needing additional Chlorine. I have a feel for how the tub performs now and don't use too many test strips. One of the concerns with this system is the cost of the test strips, but I can't tell you how happy I am to not have to screw around with the chemical set. The tub is more about fun and relaxation lately and less maintenance. Every four months I'll get a new N2 cartridge, new filter (don't want to mess with the cleaning chemicals and the effort), a pack of test strips and five pounds of MPS. Thanks WB and CG for your help.
  7. Thanks Richard. Sounds like I'm not crazy. I'll keep an eye out for TA dropping. Thought I might of noticed that yesterday. I live in the high desert with 8"/year rain and our soil is average ph 8.2. We have a hard time growing certain trees and plants here because we are highly alkaline (water sits about about 8.2 as well). I have to put about three to four table spoons of acid over several hours (230gallons) at water change just to get the Ph and Alkalinity in range. The fact that MPS is acidic is great. I really like it so far. Have a good holiday. May your tub always be clear w/ 3ppm Cl.
  8. Well it's been just over a month and I though I would report back. I have not had to shock with Chlorine and the water is crystal clear still. I use the tube four to five times a week for ~ 20 minutes. I use mineral salt deodorant and no other products that leave residuals so that might be why I'm not having to shock (so far). Occasionally there is some scum on the side of the tub, but it quickly dissolves and ends up in the filter after it's run for a minute (slightly more than I experienced with chlorine). I has been very windy here so that might be the cause of the scum. Overall I like it much more than Chlorine. While it's not as maintenance free as I was hoping, I find that it's easier than chlorine. After I get out I put one tablespoon of MPS in and know that it will last for about three days. At the three day point the test strip indicates the MPS is low, but not gone (if you are familiar with the strips). I'm assuming this is still pretty safe since no one else is using it and it's not MPS free (maybe you guys can school me on this assumption). With Chlorine I could not ignore the tub for a couple days and come back problem free so I started putting more in case I didn't come back. Anyway I'm sure I was not doing it perfectly. I've also found that the ph and alkalinity has maintained all month at about 60 and 7.4 respectively. With Chlorine it was always rising. The test strips are more expensive, but now that I know how the tub behaves I don't use them as much, but enough to make sure the MPS demand is not changing. Yes they are expensive, but I've found them to be pretty good actually (had some baquspa strips years ago that were worthless) and I can test three things in ten seconds. The water is essentially odorless to me and I don't feel the need to take a shower after use. I no longer smell the chlorine reactivating or whatever it is I smell after jumping in the shower post tube use (probably combined Chlorine reacting with FC in city water). I am using MPS at the rate of one pound per month, or about $3.50 (buying the bigger container) per month. I'm estimating that I will spend 150 dollars a year on N2 cartridges, MPS and test strips. I'm not find this too offensive as far as cost. Throw in the dichlor, calcium, acid and a new filter every four months and I'm looking at 250 dollars a year total. I would say my expenses have about doubled. Maybe as the cycle gets near the end it will become less attractive. My only thoughts at this point are: Is the tub safe to go in with the MPS slightly low (after three days with a single bather). In other words are the disinfecting properties still effective to some degree or is it like having a 0-.5ppm chlorine tub after a couple days? My hunch is it's not as vulnerable as Chlorine, but that's just an ignorant assumption. Obviously the instructions say add mps to the adequate level before getting in the tub. Is there any data available as far as how effective the cocktail is with lower the specified mps? Lastly what are the particulars of MPS? Can I throw some in and jump right in? I know with Chlorine 8 or 10ppm is too much to get in with, but I don't see any info or caution as far as throwing in a heap of MPS and jumping in the tub. I'm thinking I'll add a teaspoon of MPS just before I get in the tub if it's been a few days since I last oxidized with MPS. Thanks! Matt
  9. Waterbear/Chemgeek, Sounds like he is making incorrect statements. He is not referring to halogens used specifically for water maintenance, rather products and food sources. My primary reason for trying N2 is less maintenance so the halogen thing is not an issue. Waterbear... after reading your post again I understand. I'll see what my low-bather-load tub requires as far as MPS maintenance and hyperchlorination and go from there. It sounds like the answer to my question is basically "No, Chlorine is not required to have an adequate sanitizer, but what you will find is you will have to use Chlorine to keep the tub's water clear and fresh resulting in residual chlorine, particularly if you have higher bather loads." If I have to add MPS as much as I was adding chlorine and am having to shock with Chlorine I'll likely switch back to Chlorine only. I can say that I really like the feel and smell of the water, but I'm only a week in and everything is nice with fresh water. Thanks for sounding in with your experience. Matt
  10. Thanks Waterbear and Chemgeek. As you can see you both have a different opinion about the the requirement or lack there of for the need to have a constant free chlorine level. I have read the instructions ten times and know for a fact that chlorine monitoring is not mentioned, but then again I'm open to different interpretations of how the test was designed or the data analyzed so I'm still wondering. If they did indeed pass the test with 0 FC then there's the answer. I'll try to see if I can find this info to help the cause. LIke you both say though, I'll likely shock with Chlorine enough for it to be hard not to have some FC anyway. Waterbear if you can dig up any info on the requirement of FC with N2 I'd love to review it. Waterbear... my reasons for avoiding halogens can be found in the book "Iodine, Why you need it" Chapter 5 written by David Brownstein, M.D. (ISBN 978-0-9660882-3-6). I'm not prepared to defend his accusations, but his reasoning was enough to get my attention. I do not have 100% faith in how we access toxicity as it lacks long term exposure analysis in many cases (there are likely TONS of studies on Chlorine/Bromine though) as well as how chemicals in general interact and possibly disrupt a person's very delicate and intricate endocrine system. If an experiment is designed poorly or deceitfully due to who is funding the research, variables and the handling of uncertainties can be used to make a undesirable result fall into the noise. This could be said for the lack of negative effects of halogens or the efficacy of Nature2 for that matter. Anyway I'm not all hardcore about this, rather I'd like to give N2 a spin. If I can manage to only have to screw with hot tub chemicals every few days (when I use the tub) it will be worth the extra expense of N2 cartridges (66 dollars a year) and MPS, which is expensive plus the MPS test supplies. As it stands now I throw away my filter after one use because I don't want to mess with cleaning them and the associated chemicals, so I'm not a money miser when it comes to running the tub. If the MPS is as needy as Chlorine then it starts to become a harder decision for me. I'll see how this fill plays out and go from there. I'll do some more research on N2 and report back if I find anything worthwhile. Thanks again for taking the time to write your responses.
  11. Matt, The silver ions from the Nature2 cartridge plus the MPS you add and the water being hot all combine to make the water sanitary. This combination has passed the very stringent EPA DIS/TSS-12. You do not need any chlorine to keep the spa sanitary so long as you maintain the MPS level. However, MPS does not oxidize the same things that chlorine does so you may find that you need to shock with chlorine once a week or two, but you can just see how things go and shock "as needed", just as the instructions say. If you do not have an ozonator, then the amount of MPS you would need should be roughly 7 teaspoons for every person-hour of soaking, plus whatever is needed for the residual MPS to last until your next soak. I don't know if MPS lasts longer than chlorine, but I hope it does since the main reason you are switching is that you don't want to add sanitizer as frequently between soaks (do you have an ozonator? if so, then that would consume more chlorine between soaks, but shouldn't affect MPS). You don't "shock" with MPS. The MPS is used as an oxidizer for your bather waste and the residual MPS is used as a sanitizer when combined with silver ions and hot water temperatures. You do not need any minimum FC level for this -- just an MPS level. As for the Dichlor and CYA, you won't be using as much Dichlor so probably don't need to worry about the CYA buildup. If for some reason you do use a lot of Dichlor, then yes you could switch to bleach at some point, but I suspect you won't be needing to shock very often with chlorine so could just use Dichlor if you wanted. I wouldn't use only bleach since the chlorine would then be too strong and any soak soon afterward might be too harsh (and possibly smell of chlorine). People who don't soak frequently usually find that bromine works better for them because the bromine tabs in a floating feeder usually last at least a week, but let us know how the N2 with MPS works for you and if the MPS lasts long enough between soaks. Richard Thanks Richard. What you said is what I sort of suspected, but seeing people talk about ppm FC, "low chlorine cocktail", and "shock as needed" with dichlor had me wondering and I don't want to mess around with dirty water. I didn't meantion this before but I want to reduce my halogens exposure and the time I tried Br I was not a fan. I realize Br/Ozone makes for a great low maintenance tub, but I don't want to soak in the stuff! So far I've been adding MPS on the skinny side and it's not quite enough. Once I get a feel for how it works as far as maintenace I'll report back. I was aware that a little CYA is required before using bleach, but if I shock with dichlor to the tune of 10ppm once a week, that's almost 40 ppm CYA per month. Since Nature 2 recommends a 4 month cycle that's approaching 160ppm CYA at the end of the cycle (assuming I shock 10ppm dichlor/week). I'll count up to about 25 ppm dichrol and then switch to bleach. Will you please differentiate shocking a tub vs. adding oxidizer? While I was using using the dichlor/bleach method I always was under the impression I was hyperchloronating to shock AKA oxidize out the contaminates including combined Chlorine. It gets kind of weird.... the MPS is part of the sanatizer for a N2 tub, but is not used for shocking while A Br tub can be shocked with MPS right? Could one not "shock" with a larger dose of MPS? Maybe your answer is going to be MPS only shocks Br because it restores the free Bromine. Chlorine truely is beautiful
  12. I bought a tub a few years back and have been using chemgeek's dichlor/bleach method pretty successfully. Lately I've had less time for the tub and found myself getting too lax on maintanining the FC using the tub 2x a week and decided to give Nature2 a spin. I'm about one week into a new fill with Nature2 and am happy thus far. I've found the Nature2 test strips to be pretty good for TA and PH suprisingly. I'm a bit confused on the "low chlorine cocktail". The instructions indicate an initial shock with dichlor to sanitize and activate the cartridge. Then you basically keep your MPS in range by testing before/after each use (what a pain ... I'm sure you just figure out how much post-use MPS keeps you at an acceptable level for the next use and then shock after use). I've spent a couple hours tonight trying to find an exisiting post on the topic, but I have had no luck. Does the addtion of the MPS reactivate combined chlorine to maintain a "low chlorine cocktail" (I think not) or is shocking with dichlor every week or two actually required rather than "as needed" as the insructions indicate? Plus they dont' say anything about CYA, so after a month I've got 30ppm CYA and rising on a four month cycle. I would assume I should switch to bleach after 20ppm CYA. This is driving me crazy. I'm the only one that uses the tub and am generally a low bather load so I'm expecting to not shock as offten as they indicate, but time will tell. Basically if shocking with MPS does the job do I ever have to add Chlorine after the initial start up dichlor? I'm sure the answer will be "you will have to use Chlorine just wait", but from a SANITIZING stand point, the way I read things Ag ions & MPS @ >100F is all the sanitizer I need to keep from getting sick? I come accross people talking about minimum FC with Nature2, but the instructions don't say jack about FC levels whatsoever. I would appreciate any info. Thanks, Matt
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