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waterbear

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Everything posted by waterbear

  1. It's your pool and you can do whatever you want. Personally, I would not because every bather adds fecal matter, urine, and sweat to the water (sweat is almost identical chemically to urine) no matter how clean they THINK they are.This is why fast acting residual oxidizing sanitizer is needed. Your laws in the UK are very different from ours in the US and products like this are not permitted to be sold as primary sanitizers The risk of water borne illnesses are real. Personally I would not take the chance. As I initially stated I am not a fan of metal based systems for several reasons.
  2. Safesol seems like it might be a UK based distributor or repackager and I find it interesting that when I search for Huwasan Pool I get this link to the manufacturer https://www.roamtechnology.com/en/products/huwa-san/huwa-san-for-spapool-wellness/ but when I click on it I get a page not found error meaning that Roam Technology has taken it down for some reason. This could be a red flag that they are no longer recommending their product for pool and spa water. Pools and spas needs a fast acting and residual sanitizer and oxidizer. Silver is not fact acting but can be effective if there is a long enough time for it to sanitize. However, a pool or spa constantly has more organic matter and bacteria , fungi, and viruses added with each new bather. so it really does not fill the bill. Peroxide is a fast acting oxidizer and it will not last that long in the water when an organic load is introduced so constant monitoring is necessary to make sure that there is adequate residual in the water at all times to oxidize the organic matter introduced by each bather. Bottom line, both silver and copper are effective algacides which allows them to be called biocides but they are not effective as fast kills for bacteria and fungi and ineffective against viruses. They are useful for water treatment applications where the water is in a closed storage tank or container for enough time to sanitize before the water is used such as agricultural uses and water features, which are not constantly having new biological material added as is the situation with a pool or spa, which are "open" systems as opposed to the former which are "closed" systems. Peroxide is an effective oxidizer but not really a residual sanitizer. It it similar to MPS (non chlorine shock) in that respect. Peroxide will oxidizer organics quickly by releasing oxygen and becoming water and therefore, the level needs to be monitored and maintained or you really have noting that will sanitize and oxidize quickly. A
  3. I am not a fan of silver/peroxide systems. Silver has very slow kill times and is not effective against viruses. Also silver, whether introduces through an ionizer or added chemically (usually in the form of silver nitrate) can and does stain and silver staining is next to impossible to remove. My other concern is that the parent company that manufactures Huwa-san (Roam Technology in Belgium) makes no mention of use in pools and spas, they only list it for water features such as fountains and for livestock and agricultural solutions.
  4. You are running bromine, not chlorine. Even if you add just chlorine to a bromine system it will convert to bromine.Think in terms of bromine, not chlorine, even if the bromide bank has not built up after a fresh fill. It will make your life easier. How often were you adding the one step bromine product to your spa? Usually, if you are not using a floater with tabs, you need to dose every day to every other day so you maintain a constant sanitizer level. Adding a floater and adjusting it to maintain the sanitizer at a constant level will make life easier and yo will not need to does as often. I wold recommend weekly shocking with the granular product in that case. It probably won't. Reread the links I posted and lower your TA. Test FC and multiply the results by 2.25 to get total bromine. No need to test for CC, not applicable. Also, no need to test CYA, not applicable to bromine. In fact, the CYA test is not included in the Taylor K-22106 FAS-DPD test kit for bromine along with the reagent for testing CC. The TA and CH tests are identical in both kits. Don't worry about it. Just maintain your santizer in the 4 to 6 ppm range and test as if the bromide bank is there. It will be in a short time. If you have ozone or UV it could get oxidized to bromate, which is an undesired oxidation product that won't convert into hypobroumous acid, which is your acitve bromine sanitizer. IF you are draining and refilling every 3 to 4 months as recommended it's a non issue, even with ozone/UV. Tablets in a floater will also contribute to the bromide bank. As I said earlier, a floater will make your maintenance a bit easier once you get the floater adjusted properly to maintain your sanitizer level.. Use the granular product weekly to shock (raise the bromine to above 10 ppm.)
  5. You can, Eventually it will build up a bromide bank. Until it does you have a chlorine spa. The transition is nothing you have to worry about as long as you are keeping your sanitizer at the correct level (4 to 6 ppm) You are in Canada so you cannot get sodium bromide, it's been outlawed, so if you want to run bromine your choices are a one step product like you are using or using bromine tabs in a floater or using both together. In a few weeks there will be enough bromide in the water and you will no longer have chlorine, you will have bromine. Just keep the sanitizer in the 4 to 6 ppm range and don't loose any sleep over it. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/ You are confusing the dichlor/bleach method (chlorine spa) with 3 step bromine (bromine spa). DIchlor really is not a problem with bromine as it can be with chlorine because of stabilizer buildup over time. DIchlor is a granular, fast dissolving organic chlorine source. Trichlor is a slow dissolving organic chlorine source in tablet form and not recommended for spas and hot tubs because of it's very low pH. Both trichlor and dichlor add CYA (stabilizer) to the water and build up over time (for dichlor it's pretty fast). Once the CYA gets high the chlorine becomes less effective at sanitizing and oxidizing and the water starts having problems. However, some CYA is necessary in a chlorine tub or pool. The solution is to switch to an inorganic chlorine source such as bleach (liquid pool chlorine, Sodium Hypochlorite), Calcium Hypochlorite or cal hypo, Lithium Hypochlorite once the CYA reaches the desired level, usually about 30 ppm. These do not contain CYA so they will not cause it to continue rising. Both calcium and lithium hypochlorite are granular products. Lithium hypo is very expensive but has no other drawbacks, CAl hypo will cause calcium hardness to climb so it can be problematic. Sodium hypochlorite is liquid, inexpensive, and effective. You might know it as liquid laundry bleach. FWIW, ANY of these chlorine sources can be used to oxidize a bromide bank into bromine sanitizer. one step bromine products such as you have are mostly dichlor with a small amount of sodium bromide and bromine tabs are mostly chlorine/Dimethylhydantoin conpounds with a small amount of bromine/Dimethylhydantoin compunds. Once again the chlorine oxidizes the bromine compound to form active bromine sanitizer (hypobromous acid.) Your TA is WAY too high at 110 ppm. Lower it to 50 to 70 ppm and keep your pH around 7.7 and you will have much better pH stability. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ Which Taylor test kit do you have? First, you are running a bromine spa so ignore CYA, it has no effect on bromine. Your pH is fine, bromine is effective over a wide pH range (7.2 to 8.0) If your test kit has a specific test for bromine or has a bromine scale on the comparator block use it and ignore the chlorine scale. If it only has a chlorine scale or test only do the test for free chlorine and multiply the results by 2.25 to get the total bromine reading (just doubling the chlorine reading is close enough so make it easy on yourself). CH is fine. You want enough hardness to help prevent foaming but not so much that you will have a tendency to scale. 130 to 200 PPM is fine. If your sanitizer is not holding then something is consuming it (purge the spa) or you are not adding enough or adding it often enough to maintain your bromine level in the correct range (add sanitizer daily and make sure you are adding enough, You might want to consider adding a floater with bromine tablets and adjust it to maintain the bromine level in the 4 to 6 ppm range, also shock weekly with chlorine, either dichlor or bleach (not your one step bromine sanitizer which is a mixture of dichlor and sodium bromide) , You want to add enough to raise the sanitizer above 10 ppm. with the spa running and uncovered. Wait for the sanitizer to drop to 10 ppm or lower before entering or covering. Do this weekly as part of your normal maintenance.. most likely or you might have biofilm in the plumbing and need to purge the spa. New spas are water tested by the manufacturers and the water left inside often breeds biofilm. If maintaining the sanitizer in the correct 4 to 6 ppm total bromine and weekly shocking don't solve the problem then you should consider purging the spa.
  6. Laundry bleach from such places as Walmart or grocery stores is also fine to use as long as it's 5%, 6.25% or 8.25% sodium hypochlorite and it is not scented or thickened. I usually buy bleach at Walmart or my local grocery. In fact, Lowes, Home Depot and my local grocery all stock 10% pool chlorine in my area also.
  7. Since it's basically copper sulfate I would venture to guess no since copper sulfate is used in gardening to kill fungus on plants and as a fertilizer on certain soil types. However, I have no firsthand knowledge what is would do so proceed at your own risk.
  8. The comp;any is still active. Their products are copper or copper/silver ionizers. Some also include UV. They also produce hydrogen peroxide from the electrolysis of water, which is an oxidizer. In countries that do not allow the use of metals, UV and peroxide without the use of low levels of a fast acting primary sanitizer (such as the US) they also have units that are used with chlorine to comply with the law. My take on their systems: The problem is that metal ions have very slow kill times and are not effective against viruses, UV only sanitizes in the chamber where the water interacts with the UV light and there is no residual, and H2O2 is an oxidizer but not a primary sanitizer. Also, H2O2 cannot be used with chlorine as the two destroy each other. In fact, when chlorine levels in a pool or spa need to be lowered, hydrogen peroxide is one of the chemicals that can be used for that purpose (although sodium thiosulfate is a better choice and is the usual ingredient in chlorine reducer products for pools and spas). The OH and O radicals that they mention on their website might exists in their electrolysis chamber but they are fleeting and quickly recombine into water and the H202 produced breaks down into water and O2. O2 is a stable molecule (unlike ozone O3) and does not sanitize. Contact information: http://www.ecleareu.com/ https://www.eclearusa.com/
  9. CSI stands for calcium saturation index and this determines whether the water will deposit calcium as scale or dissolve calcium from a plaster surface and cause pitting and other problems. With an acrylic spa obviously there is no plaster to dissolve so running a negative CSI is perfectly fine. However, scale is a problem for all surfaces so you don't want to run a strongly positive CSI. The numbers I gave you will keep your water in a range that will not deposit scale since the TA and CH are both low. The only reason an acrylic spa needs calcium is to increase the hardness enough to help prevent foaming. Soft water foams more readily than hard water so we want enough hardness to prevent this but not so much that you are likely to have scale precipitate if the pH is high. Somewhere between 130 and 200 ppm is good. Some people think that you must balance CSI in any pool or spa to protect metal from corrosion but this is in error. There is NO correlation between CSI and metal corrosion. However, low pH IS the main cause of metal corrosion, the second being differential electrical current in the water, which is easily taking care of by installing a sacrificial anode and grounding properly.
  10. The rate of dissolution of the tabs is controlled by adjusting the floater more open or closed. It is not a chemical issue but is strictly an issue of floater adjustment. The floater is adjusted to maintain the bromine level in the desired range. This automatically compensates for the maintained water temperature and the normal turbulence of the water (combination of jet properties, aeration, and pump run time.) However, the OP has a sanitizer demand issue. The OP stated : This indicates that there is a high sanitizer demand in his tub and is most likely related to biofilm in the plumbing or other contamination
  11. Is your spa plaster? If it's not and is a standard acrylic shell then why are you working about CSI? Keep your calcium above 130 and under 200 to minimize foaming, TA 60 or 70 if your pH stays stable, borate 30 to 50, CYA at 30, and keep the pH in the 7.7 - 7.8 sweet spot (try to keep PH in the range of 7.6 to 8.0) and main your FC in the 3 to 6 ppm range. When you have combined chlorine higher than 1 ppm then shock. Don't make your water balancing harder than you need and most importantly, it's a hot tub, not a science project so enjoy it.
  12. Any brand of (either germicidal or laundry) chlorine bleach without scents, thickeners, or detergents that is 5.25%, 6%, or 8.25% OR liquid pool chlorine that is 10% or 12.5% is fine. It does not to be Clorox brand. House brands from the grocer or big box store are fine as long as their are plain unscented unthickened chlorine bleach or liquid pool chlorine in the strengths listed.
  13. Until the bromide bank is established you will have a chlorine tub if you have not added sodium bromine on filling. As long as your sanitizer is testing in the correct range you are fine. Bromine tablets are mostly chlorine along with a small amount of organic bromine. Test your bromine level, keep it at 4 to 6 ppm and you are good whether it's bromine or chlorine in the tub. Eventually it will be bromine, usually a few weeks after a fresh fill. If you can get sodium bromide use it. Normal dosing to establish bromide bank immediately is 1/2 oz per 100 gallons. Add the sodium bromide, shock with chlorine or MPS and put your floater in. Adjust floater to maintain 4 to 6 ppm bromine (some trial and error here but once you get it right your bromine levels will remain stable), and shock with chlorine or MPS every week or two, depending on tub usage. My feeling is that sanitizer and pH should be tested daily (ideally before going into the tub, IMHO). Shock weekly wit chlorine
  14. You might have gotten more responses by starting a new topic with your questioninstead of posting on to the tail end of a 9 years old thread that really has nothing to do with what you are asking. The manual for the self cleaning hot tubs (which the 1038 is) are on the Hydropool site https://www.hydropoolhottubs.com/en/Support/Product_Manuals However, it seems that you want a service manual. My suggestion is to contact Hydropool or a dealer and see if either can help you. Service manuals are not normally supplied to end users. @RDspaguy, @CanadianSpaTech any other ideas or info?
  15. Pretty sure your filter is clogged with "baquagoo" (technical term for the stuff that forms when biguinide sanitizes, it causes bacteria cell walls to 'explode' creating a goo that clogs filters and causes scum lines. The peroxide oxidizder helps to a degree but if there is a high bacteria load it can only do so much. Each person entering the tub adds urine, sweat (almost identical chemically to urine), and feces to the water no matter how clean they THINK they are and the sanitizer/oxidizer has to deal with it. Both chlorine and bromine are both sanitizers and oxidizers. Biguinide is only a santizer and relies on a peroxide to oxidize. I am not a fan of biguinde systems. In addition, the bacteria eventually develop a resistance leading to white water mold and pink slime (both bacterial). The only differenced between BaquaSpa and Softsoak is that the former is made by KIK (multiple pool/spa brands including Biolab, SpaGuard, Clorox Pool & Spa, Natural Chemistry, SeaKlear, and others) and the latter is made by Sigura Water (multiple pool/spa brands including Baqua, HTH, Renzezvous, GLB, Applied Biochemists and others). Both are biguinide/peroxide sanitizer systems.
  16. Your CH is fine. Relax and enjoy the tub, it's not a chemistry set! Soft water (low CH) is more likely to cause foaming than hard water (high calcium hardness) Anything above 120 - 130 ppm is enough to deter foaming. High CH will increase the possiblilty of scale formation. IF your CH is higher than 300-400 ppm you might want to add a scale inhibitor weekly to your tub unless you have a way to fill with softer water. Other than that hardness is not a factor with acrylic spas. IF you have a plaster or fiberglass tub then hardness and the calcium saturation index becomes important to protect the plaster surface or to help prevent cobalt spotting in the fiberglass shell (although the data on calcium hardness and cobalt spotting and iron staining is inconclusive it does no harm to maintain the water at the correct calcium saturation index with a fiberglass pool or spa, IMHO).
  17. I was out of town for my niece's wedding and was only gone for a week! Am I really that important? To answer the questions of the OP: 1. Only Total Bromine is tested, unlike chlorine where we test for free chlorine (which sanitizes) and combined chlorine (which does not) since combined bromine is an active sanitizer, unlike chlorine. 2. partially correct. If hardness is too low (very soft water) there is more chance of foaming. Hardness above about 120 ppm or so should be more than enough. IF the hardness is very high (more than 300 to 400 ppm) there is a chance of scaling occurring so a scale preventative might be needed. There is NO correlation between hardness and corrosion of metal parts. This is strictly a function of pH being too low. Hardness is mostly an issue with plaster pools and tubs but both vinyl pools and fiberglass pools can have some adverse effects with hardness that is too low (leaching of plasticizers from vinyl liners and cobalt spotting in fiberglass pools). The vast majority of hot tubs shells are acrylic,so other than foaming or scale deposits as mentioned above, calcium hardness is not a major issue. 3. Enzymes are a waste of money and not needed. Just keep your bromine in the range of 4 to 6 ppm and your pH in the range of 7.2 to 8.0 and shock once a week or so. I recommend shocking with chlorine and not MPS. 4. Test total bromine and pH daily, test TA and CH weekly, TDS is bogus, don't bother. I suspect your low pH is because you are testing with strips. They tend to read low for some reason. With a TA of 120 (once again suspect because you are using strips) I would be very surprised that your pH does not start rising when the tub is running, Hardness if 250 is fine. I believe you are located in Canada. The bad news is that Taylor test kits are expensive there but still worth the money, IMHO. (The Canadian prices are set by the Canadian distributor for Taylor Technologies). If you cannot get the K-2106 for bromine then you can use the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine and multiply the free chlorine test by 2.25 to get a total bromine reading. (You will not need the included combined chlorine test or the Cyanuric acid test since they are only for chlorine. The other included tests are identical in both kits.) As an alternative you can get a LaMotte ColorQ kit. Get the one with liquid reagents if possible. Be aware that it uses the DPD method for bromine and chlorine and that is subject to bleachout at high (shock) sanitizer levels, leading you to believe that sanitizer is low when it is actually high and the pH test will suffer from interference at a lower sanitizer level than the Taylor reagent (which will give inaccurate or inconclusive pH results) Read these posts (they should answer just about all your questions): https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
  18. just let the bromine drop to normal levels. If the problem persists and it was my tub then I would shock again but raise the bromine to 15 to 20 ppm and keep it there for 24 hours.Then let the bromine levels drop with tub uncovered and don't get in until the bromine is below 10 ppm.
  19. This is a moot point. Shock means to raise the oxidizer levels high enough to burn off organics in the water. Last time I checked hypobromous acid was an oxidizer. This is no different than shocking with chlorine in a chlorine system. You are raising the hypochlorous acid levels high enough to oxidize organics. MPS works much the same by adding enough oxidizer, in this case MPS, to oxidize organics. Shock is a verb that means raising the level of oxidizer high enough to destroy organics in the spa. Hydrogen peroxide is used as an oxidizer to shock biguinide systems. Shocking works the same no matter what sanitizer system you are using.
  20. This is untrue. Sodium Thiosulfate (commonly sold as chlorine neutralizer at pool/spa supply stores) will also lower bromine levels in addition to chlorine.
  21. No, I locked the thread because people come to this forum to learn proper water care and your advise, as @RDspaguyalready stated , was irresponsible and potentially unsafe.. This thread is going to be locked also because your only purpose in starting it was to complain that we would not let you post irresponsible information on water care when it is obvious you have no experience or background in it.
  22. the process is slow at first when the TA is high and needs to be repeated since the TA will not move downward at first. However, once the TA starts going down the process speeds up. I would suggest aerating overnight at the start of the process, which can take a few days. If you are not planning on using the tub you can turn the heat down during the process but the tub is fully usable during this process as long as you don't accidentally drop the pH below 7.0 and wait about 30 minutes after adding acid with circulation on before entering the tub. This should have been your first step since they explain what you are trying to do.
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