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Everything posted by waterbear

  1. It is also easy, inexpensive, and is basically how many commercial pools are maintained (except they use peistaltic pumps to dose the liquid pool chlorine (still bleach but just double strength) and the muriatic acid. When you are ready check back and I will give you some tips. Once again, the test kit is the most important part and the one that I recommended is easy and accurate (and it's sort of fun too).
  2. As I said when I first looked at it I didn't have time to study all the photos but I have noticed that the pool has "floor returns" which could just be returns or part of an in floor cleaning system, which is pressure side). Also I saw the Pentair Rainbow trichlor feeder which makes me think that the Smartpure is ozone. Without a full schematic of the plumbing (or maybe more pictures to get a better idea of all the valve and where they go, along with all the equipment plumbed in it's difficult to really say what needs to go where. I will print out the pictures tonight or tomorrow and try to see what goes to where as best I can but this is a more complex arrangement than even My pool! 😁 Best I can tell it's a pool/spa combo with shared filtration, trichlor feeder, ozone(?), blower for the spa, possible in floor cleaning system, and, as best I can tell, a shared heat pump and a DE filter.
  3. My pleasure. Just tell me where to send the bill! 😄😉
  4. I can't make out the valve labels in the vicinity of your chlorinator/filter/ heater . Also, is your Smartpure system a salt or ozone system (Bluehaven make both and I can't really tell from the picture. These are their proprietary systems.)
  5. NO! The main drain is on the suction side of the pump, not the pressure side. It cant be used as a return! The valve arrangement allows you to distribute the suction (water flow to the pump) between the main drain, 2 skimmers, and a dedicated suction cleaner port. I don't have the time right now to study the photos but I will and post what the valves do and where to set them in the next day or two.
  6. I agree. Even a kiddie pool needs sanitizer, pH adjustment, and chlorine stabilizer or you will be dumping and refilling daily. Fun fact, everyone entering the pool adds fecal matter, urine, and sweat (which is almost identical to urine in chemical makeup) to the water no matter how clean they THINK they are which is why you want a fast acting EPA approved residual sanitizer. For pools there are three in the United States, Chlorine, Bromine (not suitable for outdoor pools since it cannot be stabilized against destruction by sunlight) , or biguinde/peroxide systems which are expensive and are usually sold to unsuspecting misguided people who want a chlorine free pool. Once they start having problems with pink slime, white water mold, and goo they usually switch to chlorine. Peroxide is NOT a sanitizer, it is an oxidizer so it is not suitable for swimming pool use as a primary sanitizer. Metal ions are not a primary sanitizer and require the use of chlorine wit them so why bother. Silver and MPS (Nature 2) is only a sanitizer at the hot temperatures found in spas and, while Nature 2 is available for pools it still requires the use of chlorine so why bother?
  7. any pool can leak or collapse if not set up or maintained properly. For that matter both fiberglass and gunnite (concrete) inground pools have been known to pop out of the ground! and both ingound and above ground vinyl liner pools can suffer from tears or leaks in the liner. No but you do need to learn some basics. Search the internet for the BBB (Bleach, Borax, and Baking Soda) method of pool water care, The PoolForum is a good place to start since it has special sections for inflatable and Intex pools. Depends on local zoning. Depends on the slope. Contact the manufacturer of the pool and ask.
  8. You shock (super-chlorinate) when combined chlorine tests at .5 ppm or higher when using a good drop based test kit (NOT strips) A pool is a pool is a pool. If you are using chlorine then you need to test the water with a good kit (I recommend the Taylor K 2006) and adjust your chemical levels accordingly. It doesn't matter if the pool is a 60,000 gallon plaster surface pool, a 20,000 gallon fiberglass, or a 6000 gallon inflatable. The water chemistry is the same and, in fact, is a bit more difficult to maintain in a smaller pool. Usually but some will get you by for a year or two if you don't mind long pump runs and frequent filter cleaning. Depends, many inflatable and above ground pools come with very undersized pump and filter combos that require constant cleaning and attention. It also depends on whether you get a sand, cartrigde or DE filter since the maintenance is different for each. It's not the bottom that is usually brushed, it's the sidewalls. Last time I brushed my pool was prbably some time last year (and mine is open year round since I'm in Florida). It depends on what falls into the pool, how well you maintain your chemical levels, and many other factors. Basic chemicals needed for a chlorine pool are liquid chlorine laundry bleach, baking soda (TA increaser), Muriatic acid or dry acid for lowering pH, and chlorine stabilizer (cyanuric acid) . You can get everything you need at the grocery store except for the stabilizer. You will need to go to a pool store, Walmart or big box store to get that. I would not recommend using chlorine tabs in a floater because they add stabilizer with use and a small pool will quickly become overstabilized and you will start having problems with algae and other problems. The only way to lower stabilizer is by doing a series of partial drains and refills. Using bleach or liquid pool chlorine (both are the same except for the strength) will eliminate this problem but you will have to add a small amount of liquid chlorine daily. You will also need a good test kit. Get a Taylor K-2006. It will probably be the most expensive item you will need but will save you a lot of money and headaches. Here are some videos from the Taylor Technology website that show the kit and how to use it. It's not hard. https://www.taylortechnologies.com/en/page/231/k-2006-complete-kit-with-fas-dpd You will probably need to order it from Amazon or an online pool supply since most local pool stores only stock the K-2005 if they carry Taylor kits. The K 2005 is a bit less expensive but it uses the DPD chlorine testing method that is not as easy as the FAS-DPD testing method used in the K-2006. and can be prone to bleachout and some other limitations. All other tests in both kits are identical. It is well worth getting the k 2006 since it makes the testing so much easier with less chance of errors or interference from too high sanitizer levels.
  9. If there are metals in your water then yes. It is a preventative rather than a cure. As I said it will chelate the metal ions so they are less likely to stain or precipitate out when used regularly.
  10. If it's the or-ring between the pump and the wet end (where the skimmer basket is) it's a SAND FILTER PUMP MOTOR INLET O-RING2 part # 114571. There is a parts diagram in the manual for the pump/filter combo but if you don't have the manual here is a link to it. https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/C1XRD26zxLS.pdf Intex parts usually have to be ordered from Intex directly: INTEX RECREATION CORP. 1665 Hughes Way, Long Beach, CA 90810 1-800-234-6839 (310) 549-2900 : www.intexcorp.com (U.S./CANADA ONLY)
  11. Ph = 7.6, 7.6 perfect Free Chlorine = 6.0, 3.04 Maintain at 4 to 6 ppm, if you add 50 ppm borate then you can maintain at 3 to 5 ppm Combined Chlorine = 0.5, .36 perfect, IF CC is above .5 ppm you need to shock, either use bleach or your cell Total alkalinity = 70, 68 good for a salt system. Keep it between 50 to 70 ppm. Calcium hardness = 240, 222 good for fiberglass IMHO. There are those that say you don't need to worry about CH with a fiberglass pool but there is some empirical evidence that CH of 200 or higher does help prevent iron stains and cobalt spotting, which fiberglass is prone to. You want to avoid high CH because it can cause both scale deposits which are very difficult to remove from fiberglass without causing damage AND because calcium deposits in your salt cell will necessitate acid washing the cell and can shorten its lifespan. FWIW, My T-15 cell was installed in 2005 and is still working (average life span is 3 to 5 years) and my pool is open year round since I am in Florida. CYA = below the lowest Taylor range of 30, 2 THIS SHOULD BE 80 PPM! GET IT UP THERE ASAP AND ADJUST YOUR PERCENTAGE DOWN TO MAINTAIN FC AT 4 TO 6 PPM. No or low CYA WILL shorten cell life and will also possibly necessitate needing to shock to maintain CC at or below .5 ppm. Saturation index = 0.05, 0.1 This is excellent. Personally, I like to run a slightly negative saturation index in a fiberglass pool with a salt system to minimizes calcium deposits in the cell. Additional store results are: zero for copper, iron, nitrates and dissolved solids, 917 for phosphates, 3027 for salt vs 3200 on Hayward control box readout Depending on how the store software is set up and which spindisc they are using the 0 results might just mean that certain tests were not done. Phosphates are a non issue, don't get suckered into phosphate removers. The Hayward readout is reading conductivity, the store test is a chemical test for chloride ions (which will give a slightly different results) or is done with a handheld conductivity meter that might or might not be calibrated.. These results are close enough.
  12. If you mean Ferri-Iron tabs this is just a clarifier designed for sand filter to remove metals that have precipitated out of solution by high chlorine levels. I wouldn't bother. They can;t be used with DE filters and will foul a cartridge filter possibly necessitating its replacement.
  13. This is a phosphonate and is the type of sequestrant that you want to use. It won't remove the metal, as I said, but will make it chemically non reactive as long as you are adding weekly doses to the water. Use the Metal Out by following the directions on the bottle for initial dosing and then weekly maintenance.
  14. (a) you then need to consult the book that came with your kit to determine how much acid is needed to drop the pH to 7.2 based on the number of drops of acid demand reagent. Now check your TA. IF it is not 50 to 70 ppm start aeration until the pH rises to 8.0.do another acid demand test (b). Repeat from (a) to (b) until the TA is in the range of 50 to 70 ppm. If you want you can aerate to bring the pH up to around 7.6 to 7.8 but ;personally I wouldn't bother since the pH will rise on its own. Maintain the pH around 7.8 with bromine for the best pH stability. When doing TA and CH titrations good practice is to add drops until the last drop added produces NO FURTHER COLOR CHANGE and then don't count that last drop. To use your example, you add 8 drops and then add a 9th drop that does not produce any further change of the red color. Don't count that 9th drop so you would be at 80 ppm TA. Decontamination is done with chlorine (use bleach btw) You don't need sodium bromine or bromine tabs for this step. lo lower pH you add acid. The pH will come down. That's how it work. You have to add enough acid to overcome the buffering effect of the carbonic acid/bicarbonate buffer we call TA. Lowering TA is done by lowering your pH, which lowers the TA, then aerating to raise pH WITHOUT RAISING TA by outgassing carbon dioxide so it cannot reform bicarbonate (TA). It is a process that takes multiple times lowering pH and then aerating before you see results. The act of adding acid lowers TA because it converts bicarbonate into carbonic acid (for our purposes this is the same as carbon dioxide dissolved in the water). When TA is high it takes more acid to lower the pH from the same starting point to the same endpoint (i.e. from 7.8 to 7.2) than it does when the TA is low. Also the effect of this buffer system is to cause pH to rise. This can be minimized by keeping the TA low (but not too low so pH doesn't "crash" and this is determined by the products you are using for sanitation and shock), NOT putting the pH too low (7.7 -7.8 and lower it when it hits 8.0 no lower than 7.6), and adding 30-50 ppm borate with either a commercial borate product for spas and/or pools or by using boric acid (which will cause a slight pH drop that I usually ignore since the pH WILL rise) or borax- sodium tetraborate decahydrate (20 Mule Team Borax) or pentahydrate and the the necessary acid to neutralize the pH increase from the borax. some commercial borate products are pH neutral since they are a mixture of boric acid and the pentahydrate form of borax while others are just sodium tetraborate pentahydrate and the instructions tell you that you also need to add acid (either muriatic or dry) when dosing.
  15. No but sanitizer cannot be at shock levels (needs to be under 10 ppm for both chlorine and bromine) since high sanitizer levels interfere with both the pH and TA tests. NEVER test or adjust TA or pH when sanitizer is high. Your readings will either be inaccurate or unreadable (colors not on pH comparator, particularly with bromine)
  16. What is your sanitizer in PPM? "Highest level: tells us nothing, What is the actual number. You added 2 drops of which reagent and it turns pink? Are you talking about the acid demand test? Once again, "turns' pink" tells us nothing. We need the actual test result numbers. First thing to do is post a FULL set of test results done with your test kit (Total Bromine, pH, TA, CH). Don't worry about the acid demand test now. I will add this, there is a strong possibility that your TA is too high at 80 ppm since you are seeing a pH rise that is possibly from outgassing of CO2 but don't do anything until you have posted the test results in case something else is going on. Read these: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
  17. How are you testing the water? Please post a full set of test results . A TA of 0 is unlikely unless the pH is extremely low! High pH will not normally cause cloudy water. Please post a full set of test results not taken with strips (They are pretty useless for balancing water) Read these pinned posts: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
  18. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/ My suggestion is to take some time to read the posts that are pinned at the top of the Hot Tub Water Chemistry section of the forum. If you have questions on water maintenance that is the area of the forum to post them.
  19. IF you mean Iron OUT by Summit it is not made for use in swimming pools. If you mean another product named Iron-out please post the manufacturer and ingredients if they are listed on the bottle.
  20. This reinforces my theory of oxidative damage from the chlorine. It is usually not uniform and the fact that you are using trichlor in hot water also reinforces it. It's a metal sequestrant, most likely phosphonate based. Calcium is a metal, which many don't realize. IF you have high calcium in the water then it will chelate it but has to be applied weekly since chlorine destroys it. It does not remove the calcium from the water. If you are located in the US or Canada then you want a Taylor K-2006 test kit (not a Taylor K-2005). If you are in Norway (which your IP address seems to indicate unless you are using a VPN) try to find a test kit that uses liquid reagents and includes tests for Free Chlorine, Combined Chlorine (or Total Chlorine so combined chlorine can be calculated), pH (preferably with acid and base demand tests also because they can help make pH adjustments easier but they are not a requirement) Total Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness and Cyanuric Acid (chlorine stabilizer). These are the basic and necessary tests for a chlorine spa. You also need to stop using trichlor and will need to add chlorine manually. IF you want the convenience of a floater then you need to switch to bromine. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/ First, strips do not test calcium hardness, they test total hardness. Calcium hardness produces scale, magnesium hardness does not. Strips are useless for this test. You want a test for calcium hardness, not total hardness. Second, the hardness is still in the water. It's been temporarily "chemically deactivated' but unless you are redosing the sequestrant it can cause staining or scale, depending on the metals present in the water. A more relevant test would be one of your fill water before dosing with metal sequestrant or your "calcium stabilizer" (which is basically the same as your "metal-gone" product) to see how hard the water actually is. tell us nothing. We need an actual number such as 7.6 or 7.8 etc. Strips are useless for pH because they don't have the resolution needed (and the pH test in strips is notorious for being wrong anyway. Strips are precise (results are repeatable on the same sample) but just not accurate (producing results that are correct). In other words, the results are pure fantasy. The act of adding acid lowers BOTH pH and TA at the same time. Here are some posts that explain a few things about pH and TA https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ Once again, this tells us nothing. We need numbers. Once again, this supports my theory on oxidative damage. use;less information, What are your actual Free Chlorine and Combined chlorine readings,and what is the Cyanuric acid reading? IF you are noticing a "chlorine smell" that usually indicates the presence of combined chlorine and that the water needs to be superchlorinated. Bromine is a different animal than chlorine. I recommend using the 3 step bromine method I outlined in one of the links I posted above. Also, you do not need to test for Cyanuric acid in a bromine tub and you only need to test for Total bromine. All other testing parameters are the same. The test kit that I recommend is a Taylor K2106 for bromine. If you get a kit that tests only for chlorine then you can test free chlorine and multiply the results by 2.25 to get a total bromine reading. Be aware that if youi are using a DPD test that it will bleach out and read low on both chlorine and bromine when sanitizer is above about 10 ppm leading you to think that the sanitizer is low or non existent when in reality is it very high, many strips have this problem also (including those based on syringaldazine instead of DPD . This is why I recommend the Taylor K-2006 and K-2106 since they both use FAS-DPD testing which does not have this drawback if you are able to obtain them.
  21. DO NOT DEPEND ON STRIPS. Please invest in a drop based test kit. My recommendation is a Taylor K-2006 (not the K-2005) It will test ALL the parameters needed (Free Chlorine, Combined Chlorine, pH with acid demand and base demand, Total Akalinity, Calcium Harness, and Cynauric Acid which is stabilizer). While strips are precise (results are repeatable on the same water sample) they are not accurate (results are close to the true value, usually determined by testing a knows standard test solution for that paramater). Also, strips do not have the resolution for balancing water. For example. strips will tell if if the TA is 40, 80, or 120 PPM (resolution of 40 ppm) which is not help since the TA (total alkalinity) in a chlorine spa should be 60 to 70 ppm for best pH stability which cannot be determined with a strip. The kit I mentioned above has a resolution of 10 ppm which makes it very easy to determine that the TA is in range
  22. There is no 'best' PSI reading. It is dependent on how your equipment is plumbed and turning a water feature or cleaner on or off, changing pump speed, or even changing the size of a return eyeball can and will change the measured PSI reading on your filter's gauge. I think you are confusing PSI and flow rate. The water in your pool should turn over once per day. You determine this by multiplying the the flow rate of your pump in gallons per hour with how many hours you run your pump. This should equal the gallons of water in your pool. With a variable speed pump you can select the flow rate. Lower flow rates will filter more efficiently and also consume less energy but will require a longer run time to turn over your pool water once a day. For example, if it takes 8 hours run time on high speed (this is considered the norm) it might take 12 or 20 hours at a lower speed to turn over the water. To determine which is most energy efficient yo have to look at how many killiwatt hours your pump needs at a certain speed and how long you need to run it at that speed to turn over the water in your pool to determine how much it will cost to run the pump at that speed. You also have to take in account whether you pay a lower rate at non peak times for electricity because you can also save money by running your pump during these non peak times. Pump run time does not need to be continuous but can be broken up into on times and off times in a 24 hours period to take advantage of this. If you have to run the pump at different speeds because of pool cleaner use then calculate each separately and add the electric costs and turnover rates together. This will obviously take a bit of calculation on your part and perhaps a bit of trial and error to see how low a flow rate will work with how your pool is plumbed and your filter. It needs to be enough to match your filter's minimum flow rate and not exceed the maximum flow rate of the filter and plumbing. If your pump and filter were properly sized for your pool and plumbing this should already be done but you can double check by looking at the specs for your filter. This blog might help you also and also explain how to deal with back pressure from the plumbing (be aware that it recommends turning over the water twice a day. Once a day is the minimum for water turnover but turning it over more frequently hurts nothing, except possibly the cost of running your pump, and will help with maintaining the water since you are 'cleaning' the water in the filter more frequently. https://poolresearch.com/pump-size-calculator/ The reason you have a PSI gauge on your filter is to determine when to clean it. Depending on your setup you will have a 'normal' PSI reading (check this when the filter is newly backwashed or when installing a new cartridge or changing the DE, depending on the type of filter you have). When the PSI rises 8-10 PSI above this baseline it's time to clean your filter. As far as pump speed, max speed is usually only needed if you have certain water features or a suction or pressure pool cleaner. You will need to run at max speed or close to it when these are running. For normal pool circulation and filtering you can and should run at a lower speed, which should save electricity once you determine the 'sweet spot' as I outline above.
  23. Both Polaris and Pentair make pressure side cleaners that attach to a pool return and do not require a booster pump or replumbing. They work well but not quite as well as the booster pump models, IMHO. You do need a certain flow rate from your return and in some cases this means closing off other returns or installing smaller eyeballs to restrict the flow. This could be a solution for you if you don't want to go with a robotic cleaner.
  24. @RDspaguycheck out my edit in bold in my post above. I forgot some important information.
  25. As I said, improper maitenance. Water should have been tested on Sunday BEFORE entering the spa to make sure that chemical levels were correct. What chemicals were tested and what was added?
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