waterbear
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Posts posted by waterbear
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17 hours ago, Davekro said:
Is it common for some people to have a skin sensitivity reaction to Bromine, but NOT to Chlorine? What are the odds of this?
Yes, while some people might be sensitive to all halogens it is usually bromine that causes problems. Also, bromine is often used in conjunction with MPS, which is also a sensitizer.
17 hours ago, Davekro said:How do I create a bathtub chlorine environment to match a hot tub's?
By filling with the same water and balancing the water with the same chemicals used in the tub to the same parameters.
If your wife spills liquid chlorine laundry bleach on her skin (which is much more concentrated than the amount of chlorine in a tub or pool), does she have any type of reaction? If not then you can pretty much rule out a sensitivity to chlorine which, as I said, is not very common.
17 hours ago, Davekro said:a) Would I need to reduce our tap water's 370 ppm TA (Total Alkalinity) down below 70 ppm (our hot tub's current TA is 40 ppm), then get the PH adjusted between 7.4- 7.7 before adding Chlorine to make the test valid as close as possible to apples to apples to the actual hot tub?
IF you want to recreate the conditions in the tub then yes. However, it might be diffiult in the bath tub. The water temperature needs to be the same also.
If you only want to test for chlorine then you need to add enough liquid laundry bleach or dichlor to create a Free Chlorine level of 4 or 5 ppm.
17 hours ago, Davekro said:How much of 7.5% chlorine to initially add to say ≈ 30 gallons of bath water to get an in-range chlorine level?
1 teaspoon will raise 30 gallons to about 3 ppm so add 1.5 to 2 teaspoons.
17 hours ago, Davekro said:I only have a Taylor K-2106 'Bromine' test kit. Is there a workaround test that will tell me the effective Chlorine level I need to measure? If I can't do that with my K-2106 kit/reagents, what reagents would I need to buy to perform a proper Chlorine level test for our experimental bathtub test?
If you want to use the FAS-DPD test then you would need to get R-871 titrant for chlorine. With a 10 ml sample each drop is .5 ppm FC. with a 25 ml sample each drop is .2 ppm FC. You can also get an inexpensive 2 way test kit that uses OTO reagent with a comparator that has yellow color blocks on the chlorine/bromine test. It will test total chlorine,which should be close enough for what you are trying to do.
If you do switch to chlorine and want to continue using the K-2106 you will need, in addition to R-871, R-0003 for the combined chlorine test anda CYA test kit such as Taylor K-1721 or just purchase a K-2006 which will have the instructions for the CYA and chlorine tests and duplicates for the pH, acid/base demand, TA, and CH tests but might be the most cost effective way since you will need these tests for both chlorine and bromine so the reagents will not go to waste and a seond comparator is useful to have on hand.
17 hours ago, Davekro said:Are people with similar Bromine sensitivity able to completely avoid skin irritant sensitivity reactions of rashes and bumps by simply taking Antihistamines like: 25mg Benadryl or 10mg Cetirizine HCI (Zyrtec or Amazon Generic), 10 mg Loratadine (Claritin or Amazon Generic)? If so, what doses and how long before and after?
Ask your doctor but if it is not an allergic reaction but a contact dermatitis (irritation reaction) then I would think antihistamines would not be the treatment of choice since they are used to treat an allergic response and that topical steroids would be more likely to be of help. I am not a medical professional so, once again, ask your doctor.
As a last resort, if your wife is sensitive to both bromine and chlorine your only alternative is to use a biguinde/peroxide based sanitizer system such as BaquaSpa or SoftSoak. I am not a fan of these since they are expensive, tend to clog filters and create scum in the spa (often referred to as BaquaGoo), can attack some spa plastic parts and might void your warranty (check with the manufacturer) and sometimes develop white water mold or pink slime (both bacterial) in the water. Biguinide/peroxide is the only other EPA approved sanitizer for home pool and spas besides chlorine or bromine based systems (including "mineral" systems such as Nature 2 and Frog, which do require the use of some chlorine or bromine).
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First of all, you also need to test for cyanuric acid if you are using chlorine,. This is chlorine stabilizer and dichlor (the form of chlorine you are using) adds 9 ppm cyanuric acid for every 10 ppm free chlorine added. This can quickly lead to overstabilizerd water (the chlorine is chemically bound to the stabilizer and is not available for sanittation.
Strips are useless for measuring total alkalinity since they do not have the precisoin needed. The scale is too big. You need a precision of +/- 10 ppm. I would suggest in investing in a Taylor Technoligies K-2006 (FAS-DPD chlorine test method) test kit. It uses liquid reagents and is worth every penny! (Don't get the K-2005 (DPD chlorine test method), it uses a different chlorine testing method that is not as good and has several drawback. The test is is easy to use and Taylor Technologies has videos on their website explaining how to use the kit.
Your low sanitizer levels might be low sanitizer or it might be bleachout of the strips because of high sanitizer. This is another drawback of strips and also of the DPD testing method.
You want to keep your TA (alkalinity) between 50 to 70 ppm for best pH stability. These posts might help explain what TA is and how it works:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
IF and when you do need to raise TA don't use commercial product$ such as your Alkarise. It is nothing more than plain baking soda (sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydrogen carbonate, same thing). It's MUCH cheaper to get it at the grocery store.
Finally, NEVER test pH when your sanitizer is above 10 ppm (strips or liquid reagents except for the Taylor pH reagent, which is good up to about 15 ppm sanitizer) because of an interference between high santizer and the phenol red indicator used to test pH. It will convert to chlorophenol red, which gives the same color changes at a much lower pH range which means that your test results might indicate the pH is 7.8 or even higher but in reality all we know is that it is above 6.8 (the highest pH chlorophenol red can test). Some inexpensive test kits will give wrong pH results if the sanitizer is above 3 - 5 ppm!
Finally, if you are going to use chlorine, read about the dichlor bleach method, where dichlor is used to bring the cynaruic acid level to 20 -30 ppm and then switching to liquid chlorine or plain, unscented chlorine bleach (same thing, different strengths) since bleach (sodium hypochlorite) does not add cyaunric acid. Some of the informaton in these posts is either out of date or wrong but for the most part they are good guides.
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23090-dichlorbleach-method-in-a-nutshell/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/13634-nitros-approach-to-water-maintaince/
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your spreadsheets are unavailable and without the numbers it's impossible to say what's going on. Exactly how are you testing? What digital tester are you using and what test strips? Test strips, while precise (give the same results on multiple tests on the same sample) are not really accurate (giving results that represent the actual water parameters).
Post the numbers and how they were obtained, perhaps cut and paste, instead of trying to up load spreadsheets, and we can take it from there.
What is your chlorine source? Are you by any chance using dichlor exclusively?
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I am moving your post to the Hot Tub Water Chemistry section of the forum since it is more appropriate.,
Where do I begin. So much misinformation.
First, A spa is not a swimming pool and you cannot use swimming pool techniques to properly maintain a spa.
Second, the chemistry of chlorine and bromine are very different. What works for one does not necessarily work for the other.
This will be a lengthy answer as I try to explain so bear with me. I will not be answering your questions in order.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:I use test strips but it sounds like I should switch to non-strip based. Will this Taylor K 2005 suffice? The K 2006 doesnt include bromine.
Test strips are useless for water balancing. The K-2106 is specifically for bromine but you can use a K=-2006 also. First, you do not need to test CYA with bromine since it has no effect on a bromine spa, only chlorine. To test total bromine you would do the test for free chlorine and multiply the results by 2.25 to get total bromine. Done! No need to test for combined chlorine either. All other tests (pH, acid and base demand, total alkalinity and calcium hardness) are identical in both kits. The K-2005 uses a DPD colorimetric test for sanitizer. The K-2006 and K-2106 use the far superior FAS-DPD test which can test much higher sanitizer levels and is not prone to bleachout nor need sample dilutions to test high sanitizer (shock or SLAM level). Finally, the DPD test uses a comparator with shaded of red while the FAS-DPD test is a titration (drop counting test) with a color change from red to colorless. This is important since the majority of men cannot differentiate between shades of red. Don't get the k-2005.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:Should I also be using scale and metal control additive?
Do you have metals in your water? Are you on well water? Is your calcium hardness above 400 ppm? If so, yes. otherwise, no.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:ENZYMES WORTH IT?:
In a word, no. Same with phosphate remover.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:After the first 12 hours of adding salt and running the chlorinator my reading was 0 total chlorine
You want to test free chlorine. It is also possible that the strip has beached out because of high sanitizer levels. Get a good test kit! It is possible the generator is not working or you might have a biofilm buildup. Have you purged your spa with a spa purge product such as Ahhsome
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:Ph and alkalinity are good.
no such thing, what are the actual numbers?
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:read that with ozone, your chlorine readings with a salt water generator will typically always be zero
not true, Ozone will destroy some chlorine (or bromine) but it should not cause it to read 0 ppm. something else is going on.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:so how should I know if the water is clean/safe?
You have a sanitizer level (chlorine or bromine) in the proper range. easy peasy
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:I currently have sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione dihydrate and also one that doesn’t have dihydrate on the end of it.
They are one and the same. Almost all dichlor sold for pool spa use is dihydrate form since the anhydrous form is a class 3 oxidizer (DANGEROUS). Also, dichlor is normally 99% but it might also say 55% available chlorine. It's still the same dichlor.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:Can I use either of these to SLAM?
Why are you SLAMMING a spa? First of all, let's clear up shocking and SLAMMING. SLAMMING means to raise the FC to shock level AND KEEP IT THERE by testing and continual adding of chlorine. This is standard procedure for clearning a pool that has algae. The level of chlorine needed is dependent on the CYA level and the type of algae you are trying to kill. This was first brought to the pool and spa community by Ben Powell on his Pool Forum (where I am still a Senior Contributor) because it works. This is where the BBB method of pool care originated. It was not called SLAMMING then but was just the proper way to shock a pool to destroy algae. The term SLAM (shock level and maintain) was created on the spinpoff TFP forum (where I was one of the original moderators when the forum first started). this is because many don't understand that shock is a verb, not a noun. It is something you do , it is not a specific product. If the problem is combined chlorine over .5 ppm (1 ppm for a spa) then you just need to bring the FC to the correct shock level and that usually takes care of the problem for an outdoor pool or spa exposed to sunlight. For indoor pools and covered spas with persistent CC then other methods need to be employed. Be aware that for every 10 ppm FC added dichlor will also add 9 ppm of CYA and this can lead to an overstabilzed tub in a short time! This only applies to a chlorine tub. It is OK to use dichlor until the CYA reaches 20-30 ppm then switch to bleach, which does not add CYA. This is called the dichlor/bleach method.
Bromine is a different animal combined bromine is still an efficient sanitizer, unlike combined chlorine which is why we only test total bromine in a bromine spa. However, organics do build up in the water from bather load so shocking weekly help burn them off along with volatile oxidation by products, which might have been the cause of your headaches. This is usually accomplished by adding an oxidizer (usually chlorine or MPS) to burn them off. Adding an oxidizer to a bromine system will activate the bromide bank and create bromine sanitizer. the idea is to bring the total bromine to about 12-15 ppm, leave the tub uncovered, and circulate the water until the bromine has dropped to below 10 ppm. The tub is now usable. Most people shock every week or two but it really depends on how much usage the tub gets. DIchlor is ok for this but bleach is less expensive and works just as well,.
Personally, I don't like the acronym SLAM since it is for a specific issue while shocking covers more issues.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:I know SLAM is recommended,
says who?
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:Is it OK to shock a salt water based spa with Potassium peroxymonosulfate?
yes but:
MPS (potassium monopersulfate) is a known sensitizer, it will make testing chlorine difficult since it tests as combined chlorine which can make you think you have a persistent CC problems when you don't (Taylor Technologies makes a add on to the K-2006 to remove this interference but it complicates testing). MPS is generally only needed in a spa or indoor pool when there is a persistent CC of .5 for a pool or 1 for a spa that chlorine will not remove.
For bromine MPS will activate the bromide bank into bromine sanitizer but, as I said, it's a known sensitizer (as is bromine). It's also a lot more expensive than laundry bleach, which is the same as liquid chlorine and all most people really need.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:his potassium seems less chemical like
explain how? It's a chemical and an oxidizer, it is not a sanitizer unless used with silver ions (usually from silver nitrate) in HOT water (Nature 2, Frog, and other 'mineral systems' for spas. I am not a fan, btw.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:s there any benefit to using this over bleach or sodium dichlor?
In a word, no. (Unless you have persistent CC as I wrote above).
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:After adding salt and starting the chlorinating process, I can already sense I’m not going to like the smell.
If you can smell chlorine then you have combined chlorine (bad chlorine) and need to shock with more chloirne to get rid of it. This is called breakpoint chlorination and is one of the reasons to shock (not SLAM) since normally, you only need to bring the FC high enough to destroy the combined chlorine (chlorine that has combined with ammonia and other organics in the water from bathers.)
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:I’ve read you can use NaBR instead of NaCL
Depends on the salt system. Some cannot be used with sodium bromide, some can. Sodium bromide is what is also used to create your bromide bank in a normal bromide system. When an oxidizer is added it converts the bromide ions into hypobromous acid, which is your bromine sanitizer. If chlorine is your oxidizer, it doesn't matter if it comes from bleach, dichlor, cal hypo or a SWG (which makes bleach by electrolysis of salt) Bromine generators us sodium bromide directly to produce bromine sanitizer. It all depends on how the system is designed on which you can use.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:maybe I misread it and that it’s you can add bromine and it will create a bromine reserve/bank that only kicks in if the chlorine drops too low?
no, once you have established your bromide reserve in the water you oxidizer it to convert it to bromine sanitizer, When the sanitizer is consumed it converts back to bromide ions (and some non renewable bromate ions). You oxidize again to bring your sanitizer back. FWIW, bromine tabs are mostly chlorine with just a small amount of bromine to maintain the bromine reserve.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:I’ve read mixed opinions on shocking, including on here where shocking is more so frowned upon but SLAMing if CC > FC. I landed on the decision if I kept my bromine levels stable there was no reason to shock.
So much wrong here. CC should NEVER be more than FC in a properly maintained chlorine system. If it is there is probably an algae or biofilm problem and you need to raise the FC to the proper level for the CYA and KEEP IT THERE until the problem is gone. (call it SLAMMING if you like)
Bromine is a different animal entirely. You need to shock to get rig of organics in the water. Every bather adds sweat, urine and feces to the water no matter how clean they THINK they are. Even if they shower first. 5–10 mL of urine and 10–25 mg of fecal material every time they enter the water. They also sweat and sweat and urine are very similar in chemical makeup.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:The reason I didn’t like shocking is it took days for my levels to come back down to a safe amount to enter the spa. Am I totally wrong in this? I
Yes, you are wrong. How high were you shocking and with what? You want to raise your bromine to 12-15 ppm and then circulate the water with the spa uncovered until the bromine is below 10 ppm. it is then ok to enter the spa. It should not take more than a day at most and usually it's in the neighborhood of several hours.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:I was reading about bromides and have also never truly understand free vs total chlorine (or bromine).
Once again, chlorine and bromine are different animals. FC is good chlorine that sanitizes and does not have a strong smell. CC is bad chlorine (chlorine that has combined with ammonia and other organics in the water ) and had a strong chlorine odor and burns the eyes. You get rid of it by shocking (raising the FC high enough to break the bonds and allow the volatile ammonia and other organics to gas off. The level of chlorine needed depends on the CYA level. The higher the CYA the higher the FC needed to achieve this (or to achieve normal sanitation for that matter). Once chlorine sanitizes it is converted to chloride ions, which are not renewable like bromide ions are.
Bromine chemistry is different. You need to establish a bromide ion reserve in the water (easiest way to to add sodium bromine on each fill. You don't need a lot. You then add an oxidizer (i prefer bleach) to convert the bromide ions into bromine sanitizer. When the sanitizer is used up it converts back into bromide ions and the cycle starts again. Some of the bromine is over oxidized into bromate ions are not renewable. There are some health concerns with bromate but it's basically in drinking water and not spas. Ozone tends to speed up the formation of bromate. The cure is to make sure you are doing water changes every 3to 4 months.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:if my combined levels are high, adding more shock to increase the free chlorine would render the spa unusable for many many days.
You said you are using bromine, there is no free chlorine. It is total bromine,. One of bromine's advantages is that combined bromine is a good sanitizer, unlink combined chlorine. This is why we only worry about Total bromine, This is also why we shock a bromine spa to get rid of organics in the water that can combine with the bromine sanitizer and produce volatile oxidation byproducts, which need to gas off.
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:I strongly don’t think I was overdosing it.
From what you said you were and it seem that you were confusing bromine and chlorine and what to do with each. They are different!
12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said:I finally bought sodium thiosulfate to help with this.
should not have been necessary, For chlorine, both hydrogen peroxide and ozone can also lower FC. However, if you needed to to that you were overdosing! Period! End of story!
Read these posts, they might help you:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23090-dichlorbleach-method-in-a-nutshell/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53108-some-truths-on-bleach-dosing/
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Please post test results on your fill water and balanced spa water. Also, is the color of the sticky stuff similar to the color of your spa filter end caps? Also, are you using chlorine, bromine, or a different sanitizer system and if you are using chlorine what type (liquid chlorine, dichlor, or chlorine tabs)?
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Many dealers will let you wet test the spa in the showroom.
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On 2/16/2024 at 4:17 AM, CTB said:
Is it possible to epoxy the inside of the existing housings to repair the leaks?
Not if you want a permanent repair.
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Some people will experience a rash when exposed to hot water. It is a form of hives or heat rash and if it only affecting your wife is one of the most likely explanations, the other being hot tub itch (which seems more lkely since you said it only starts occiring on "older' spa water. However, a few other things jump out at me.:
6 hours ago, Tinkers said:CYA: 0
Chlorine can be more aggressive with no CYA present, even though it is not a known sensitizer. (Bromine, on the other hand, is.) Try running the CYA at 20-30 ppm and FC at 3 - 5 ppm. If your CC is below .5 ppm you do not need to shock. It is rare that a properly runnign salt water system will need shocking or When do you shock shock to 12-15 ppm with sodium hypochlorite and wait unti the FC is below 10ppm before yon enter the tub.
6 hours ago, Tinkers said:pH: usually runs between 7.8 & 8ppm with the SWG system with little to no drift keeping the Alk at 60 ppm
Alk: 60ppm. If I raise the Alk then the pH wants to drift higher at a quicker rate.
You can go as lot as 40 ppm if ph rise is too fast. Adding 30-50 ppm borate will also help stabilize pH for a longer period of time. I recommend boric acid over borax since ti had a smaller effect on pH and does not require the addition of acid at the same time. Boric acid and borax are used in vaginal supositories, bath salts and bath bombs, btw. and, while the powder is an irrirant because of it's low pH, it is not a known sensitizer.
6 hours ago, Tinkers said:There is NO bacteria in hot tub water!
How do you know this? Have you has a bacteriological water analysis done?
7 hours ago, Tinkers said:We have tried EVERY sanitizer system...liquid sodium hypochlorite (HTH brand liquid chlorine 10%), Bromine, Nature 2 with low level sodium hypo, the frog system both chlorine AND Bromine, standard floater with bromine tabs and sodium bromide bank with no luck.
One word of caution, You MUST do a complete drain and refill (possbily more than one to account for water left in the plumbing) if you want to go back to chlorine after using any form of bromine or you will still have a bromine spa.
7 hours ago, Tinkers said:Could something (chemical) from what the inside of the cover or piping is made of be "leaching" into the water over time?
possible but whether it can cause a rash is doubtful or the would be several cases documented.
7 hours ago, Tinkers said:Is there something else that I can use to flush the tub to make sure it has no chemical residues left over in the pipes that could possibly be causing her skin issues?
Hot tub flushes are chemicals designed to break up biofilm. Some contain enzymes. Some are detergent based. You can do several drains and refills with plain water after to help flush out the plumbing.
7 hours ago, Tinkers said:If it is a case of her not being able to soak in hot water (aquagenic urticaria, which presents differently than the rash she is experiencing) then wouldn't that occur from the very first time being in the tub and not several soaks (days or weeks) into a fresh fill?
Usually. If the rash only starts occurring after the water hah "aged" I would look to bacterial or protozoal causes such as pseudomonas (hot tub itch) , which some people are more sensitive to than others
7 hours ago, Tinkers said:What does muriatic acid turn into after added to the water to bring the pH down?
Chloride ions, Muiatic acid is HCL and when it neutralized something akaline it does so by donating the hydrogen ion to the OH ions in the water creating basically water and salt.
7 hours ago, Tinkers said:What does the baking soda turn into after added to the water for bringing the Alk up?
When baking soda is dissolved it forms sodium ions and bicarbonate ions, which, depending on pH reach an equilibrium between bicarbonate ions and carbonic acid, which is basically carbon dioxide dissolved in water (seltzer). This post explains it a bit more:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
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@Ahhsomeguy, care to jump in?
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21 hours ago, Davekro said:
If you see a reference to this product not to be used in pools, would you post a link?
:
https://kleanstrip.com/tutorials/learn-more-about-klean-strip-green-muriatic-acid
Very first statement on page:
Klean Strip® Green® Muriatic Acid is not manufactured to balance pH in swimming pools.
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21 hours ago, JustALearnin said:
Why have a forum about something you can't discuss.
Perhaps you need to read the name of the forum again, It's PoolSpaForum, not UseToiletBowlCleanerInMyRentalHotTubsForum.
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21 hours ago, JustALearnin said:
t seems the moderator on this forum won't allow discussions about the actual chemistry of hot tubs.
Perhaps if you actually read the forum (or some of the other forums I participate in and have for over 20 years) you would see that my knowledge of chemistry of pools and hot tubs is quite extensive and that I do have a chemistry background.
21 hours ago, JustALearnin said:He seems to be either a salesman for the Frog line of products
I am in no way associated with KIng Technologies nor am I a fan nor do I recommend ANY 'mineral" (metal ion) system of sanitation.
21 hours ago, JustALearnin said:or just completely clueless about true chemistry
I have a chemistry backgound, Do you?
21 hours ago, JustALearnin said:There was a discussion about... you know... chemicals used by Frog and the discussion was shut down.
No, the discussion was about substituting a chlorine based toilet bowl cleaner for one of the proprietary components in a proprietary sanitation used in your rental properties because you objected to the price of the system. If you want to experiment in your personal hot tub be my guest but you are talking about possibly endangering the health of your unsuspecting renters.
21 hours ago, JustALearnin said:This thread will probably get stopped
It will stand but you will get warning points because of your personal attack.
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Once again, the ONLY way to determine how much acid you need to add for a given pH drop is by an acid demand test. Spa have a very small volume of water so it is very easy to overdose and dropping the pH too low can and will damage pump seals, filter endcaps, and other parts. The amount of acid needed to drop your pH to 7.0 and not lower WILL change as the TA drops. What is hard to understand about this. Converting amounts of one acid to another is moot since the Taylor acid demand tests have tables for both muriatic acid and sodium bisulfate. Why are you making this harder than it is?
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I will say this once, the Frog@ease is a proprietary system so if you think it is too expensive stop using in and use a different sanitizer system. Substituting a toilet bowl cleaner for part of the system could be potentially dangerous and if the tub is on a rental property you are potentially opening up yourself to a lawsuit if someone has an adverse reaction.
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I will say this once, the Frog@ease is a proprietary system so if you think it is too expensive stop using in and use a different sanitizer system. Substituting a toilet bowl cleaner for part of the system could be potentially dangerous and if the tub is on a rental property you are potentially opening up yourself to a lawsuit if someone has an adverse reaction.
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I will say this once, the Frog@ease is a proprietary system so if you think it is too expensive stop using in and use a different sanitizer system. Substituting a toilet bowl cleaner for part of the system could be potentially dangerous and if the tub is on a rental property you are potentially opening up yourself to a lawsuit if someone has an adverse reaction.
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18 hours ago, Davekro said:
how long do I need to wait to test for the PH level that acid dose has achieved?
Follow the post on lowering TA. The procedure works.
18 hours ago, Davekro said:Is there a chart or rule of thumb for what dosages of 20% HCL (Muriatic Acid) equate to Sodium Bisulfate dosages for affecting a 0.X PH decrease?
No, it is dependent on the TA for sodium bisulfate, Muriatic acid, or Sulfuric acid (sometimes used in commercial pools). This is why it is important to use an acid demand test. There is an equivalncy for amouts of muriatic acid to use for a given amount of sodium bisulfate but it not going to help in lowing TA since the Taylor acid demand test has charts for both 20 baum muriatic acid and sodium bisulfate so it becomes moot. It is impossible to say how much a given amount of acid will lower the pH. The higher the TA the more resistant the change of pH will be. This is why the TA lowering process might seem to be having no effect at first and then all of a sudden it starts moving very fast.
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18 hours ago, Davekro said:
Klean-Strip Muriatic Acid
DO NOT USE THIS!
If you check the company's website it says their product is not for use in swimming pools to balance water so it is not for use in hot tubs either. You need plain muriatic acid!
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20 minutes ago, Biggen said:
how do I know how much dichlor to add to a 350g tub in order to do that?
.25 oz (by weight) per 100 gallons. 1 oz. or just under should be about right.
21 minutes ago, Biggen said:. I guess this is trial and error as far as how many pucks to use, what setting on the floater to select, and how long they last?
Yep, pretty much. I would get a Pentair 335 floater for 1" tabs because of it's adjustability and construction. Fill it about halfway and open it about an inch for start and see how well it maintains your bromine over the next week or two and adjust as needed. Much depends on how much use the spa gets. If the spa is going to be unused for a few weeks then close the floater down. If it is getting extra use then open it a bit more. You will soon develop a 'feel' for it. (This floateralso comes in blue.)
33 minutes ago, Biggen said:I understand I need to shock at least weekly and boost those bromine levels up to 10ppm+.
"Shockng" helps "burn off" organics in the water from users (body oils, sweat, traces of feces, urine, etc. that EVERY bather adds to the tub water no matter how clean they THINK they are). If the tub is not getting a lot of use then you can shock less often, If it's getting heavy use then shock more often. Once a week is good for most people.
37 minutes ago, Biggen said:If using a floater, do I need to also shock after each soak or is weekly enough?
The whole idea of 3 step bromine is that you do not heed to add chlorine (or other oxidizer) after every use, unlike 2 step bromine (or chlorine--bleach/dichlor)
40 minutes ago, Biggen said:How long does it take from bromine levels to fall after a shock?
Depends on the orgainic load in the water, whether the tub is covered or uncovered, and whether it's circulating or the pumps are off. FIrst shock after fill can take longer becuase of no organic load in the water.
42 minutes ago, Biggen said:f I shock and raise the bromine levels to ~15ppm in the evening after we have finished with the tub for the night, will it be back to 4 - 6ppm by the next day?
You are not shocking every day and the tub just needs to be under 10 ppm before you go back in.
43 minutes ago, Biggen said:I have done some reading in here and some people have commented it can take days to drop from 20ppm back to usable levels of 4 - 6ppm
There was a recent post to that effect but it was the first shock to activate the bromine bank after a fresh fill. Also every tub is different so what you experience is not what someone else will experience. The key is regular testing and keeping notes of test results and amounts of chemicals added and tub usage (normal, low, or high). This is how you will know what is working and what is not working for YOU.
Final bit of advice, stop worrying so my and enjoy the tub. It's something to help you relax, not stress over. There is no 'recipe' that works the same in every tub so just follow the guide, record your tests results and chemical additions, and soon you will have it down and realize how easy it is.
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All these products are made of an oleophilic (oil loving) absorbant foam that soaks up oils and organic compounds that float on the water surface often changing color as they do so. If there is nothing to soak up then they stay white. The color change is what tell you when they have done their job. The more surface area they have the better they work which is why they work better than scumballs.
On 2/1/2024 at 6:04 PM, THE DUDE said:The tub has mostly been closed up except for chem checks and additions.
However, this foam will discolor when exposed to ozone or other strong oxidizers and your tub has been closed so there would not be any sanitizer demand so, instead of oxidizing organics in the water the foam is being oxidized. by the sanitizer and oxidizer you have been adding. This is probably why they are discoloring.
My own experience with these types of products is that they need to be replaced every 6 weeks to 3 months, depending on tub usage. They can only be rinsed out so many times and they never return to the original white color once they have absorbed stuff or have started to oxidize.
There are also mesh fabric scum absorbers that are machine washable that are supposed to work well but I have never tried them.
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Look in the pinned posts in the hot tub chemistry section of the fourm. Both are there.
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15 minutes ago, PatrickPhimr said:
But are they koi safe?
This is a pool and spa forum, not a pond and aquarium forum. This is the second post you have made that was about fish keeping.
If you had taken a few minutes to actually read this thread you would have known that your post has absolutely nothing to do with the topics being discussed.
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On 1/30/2024 at 12:34 PM, mchad said:
But I do see benefits with salt water - we have hard water and it reduces that,
No, it does not. Adding salt has no effect whatsoever on the calcium hardness of the water. That is merely marketing hype. Salt water will have a different skin feel because the water it changes the osmotic pressure, making the water a bit less "agressive". You can keep the salt if you want but be aware what it is doing. Exactly how hard is your water?
On 1/30/2024 at 12:34 PM, mchad said:FreshWater salt system
My biggest problem is that this system wants to to replace the salt cell every 4 months. This is a way for the company to make money on something that should not be a "consumable". Salt cells do need cleaning because of calcium buildup in most system. Watkins is eliminating the cleaning step by making this (expen$ive) part something to be replaced and discarded 3 times a year.
On 1/30/2024 at 12:34 PM, mchad said:also keeps my pH in check.
NO, it does not. The salt system is not why your pH is more stable than in a differnt tub you had. pH in a hot tub or spa is mainly a function of the TA. If the TA is high then pH will tend to rise because of the outgassing of CO2. Lower TA means less carbonation in the water so less outgassing of CO2 and therefore less pH rise. It is also a function of pH. The lower the pH the more conversion of bicarbonate into carbonic acid (CO2 dissolved in the water) and therefore the faster the pH rise since there is more CO2 to gas off. It is also a function of the amount of aeration of the water (think of what happens when you shake a bottle of soda, you are aerating the soda and causing it to go flat as the CO2 gases off). Sources of aeration in a tub are mainly the jets and aerators and since every tub has a different configuration the pH stability of a tub at the same pH and TA CAN vary from model to model. Also Salt Water Chlorine generators will cause pH rise because of the hydrogen bubbles formed in the salt cell. These are also a source of aeration that will cause CO2 go outgas.
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
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Very Strong 'skin sensitivity' reaction to Bromine hot tub. How to do a bathtub test for a “Chlorine” reaction?
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
MPS is a known sensitizer and many people get skin reactions from its use.