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waterbear

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Everything posted by waterbear

  1. The main reason that trichlor is not for hot tubs is because it is very slow dissoving and very acidic! The bather load in a spa is much greater than in a pool and a fast dissolving form of chlorine is needed. The very low pH of trichlor in the small volume of water in the spa can cause problems with the water's pH and TA very quickly. If you want to use stabilzed chlorine then you need dichlor. Dichlor does not come in tablet form, only in granular. I don't know of any chlorine tablets that are packaged for spa use. (the only forms of chlorine that come in tablets are trichlor and calcium hypochlorite). Many state health departments now say that only unstabilized chlorine should be used in hot tubs (I don't necessisarly agree) and some manufacurers, such as HTH, now only sell calcium hypochlorite packaged for spa use.
  2. Baquaspa is NOT compatible with bromine or chlorine. You need to drain and refill or you will have some nasty colored water!
  3. Lets look at spa chemicals for a minute, doesn't matter the brand Alkalinity increaser is sodium bicarbonate, sometimes called sodium hydrogen carbonate (different name for same chemical). You probably have this in your kitchen or medicine chest. It's baking soda! Most of it is manufactured by Church and Dwight and repackaged. You might know the Church and Dwight brand as Arm and Hammer! pH increaser is sodium carbonate, also called soda ash. You might have this in your laundry room as washing soda. Also mostly manufactured by Church and Dwight and repackaged. Dry pH decreaser is sodium bisulfate. Period! If you don't believe me look at the ingredients on just about any brand out there. Muratic acid and sulfuric acid are not commenly used in spas because the dosing is difficult unless they are sold in very diluted strengths. So if you are using a liquid pH decreaser for spas you are paying for mostly water with just a little bit of acid in it. Calcium hardness increaser is cacium chloride. Most of it is manufactured by Dow Chemical and then repackaged. The Dow brand is DowFlake. It is sold by Dow as a De-icer and for pool and spa use! If you are using a chlorine system then you are either using dichlor (stabilized granules), cacium hypochlorite (unstabilzed granules), lithium hypochlorite(very expensive unstabilzied granules), or sodium hypchlorite (liquid chlorine....also the same as laundry bleach, sometimes a stronger strength but not always!). Trichlor is not used in spas (or shouldn't be). It is too acidic and dissolves too slowly. If you are using a bromine system then your chemical to create your bromine bank is sodium bromide. Your oxidizer is either a form of chlorine (usually dichlor or calcium hypochlorite in a 2 part bromine system that uses chlorine for the oxidizer) or is potassium monopersulfate (MPS), also called non chlorine shock. Once again MPS is MPS. It's trade name is Oxone and was developed and manufactured by DuPont. They still sell it under that brand name. It is repackaged by other companies. Bromine tabs are all basically 1-BROMO-3-CHLORO-5.5-DIMETHYLHYDANTION. This is a compount of bromine stabilzed with dimethylhyndation and it contains chlorine to acitive the bromine. There are a few bromine tabs on the market that contain MPS instead of chlorine. For bromine to work it needs an oxidizer, usually chlorine or MPS (Ozone works also). Bromine by itself will not sanitize. Water enhancers and conditioners are usually borax or a mixture of borax and dry acid (Technically borax is sodium tetraborate decahydrate, it has ten water molecules attached and the commercial products are sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, 5 water molecules attached so on a weight basis it is a bit more concentrated but it is still borax!) These are added to a concentration of 30-50 ppm to act as an algaestat, reduce sanitizer demand, help stabilize pH, and soften the water. The acid is needed to offset the pH increase from the borax. (BTW, these products work very well when used properly!). I don't believe that Walmart sells this type of chemical. If you are buying chemicals at Walmart you are not using a biguanide sanitation system (SoftSoak, BaquaSpa, Revacil, etc.). They don't sell one. Now as to my opinion of Walmart chemicals. The only drawback I have seen to some of them is that they sell them with more fillers so you need to use more of them. If the price is cheaper but you need more for the same dosage of active ingredients then you really aren't saving money. What you need to look at with ANY pool or spa chemical is how much does it cost per dose. Often times the cheaper products are the most expensive to use. (but not always) I could continue with metal removers (majority are HEDP, a few are EDTA), clarifiers (sodium polyacrylate or chitosan), defoamers (simethicone), algaecides (there are really only a few of them--copper, liner quats, polyquat, inorganic ammonia, sodium bromide, silver, or mixtures of these) but I think you get the picture. Hope this is helpful.
  4. Most state health departments now say that chlorine levels should not go under 2 ppm and allow swimming up to 10 ppm for both pools and hot tubs. I personally would not go swimming if the chlorine levels were not adequite for proper sanitation. Just because the water looks clear and clean does not mean it is safe to swim in. It could contain a very high bacteria count and could cause illness.
  5. The pucks for spa use are bromine, not chlorine. Trichlor is too slow dissolving, too acidic, and has too much stabilzier to be used successfully in a hot tub.
  6. just to reinterate, powdered automatic dishwasher detergent such as Electrosol or Cascade is basically TSP. It is what is recommended by Unicel, who is one of the largest manufacturers of OEM and replacement cartridtges and others. http://www.unicelfilters.com/pool_owners/c...orine_users.asp Using the dishwasher is probably not as effective as soaking overnight but it might work. In either case be sure to rinse it cart off well with a hose.
  7. Muriatic acid should never be used to clean a filter unless the orgainics have been removed first with TSP or a filter cleaner. Muriatic acid will react with the organics on the filter and cause them to harden into a a cement like substance, ruining the cartridge. The only time a filter should be acid washed is if there is a lot of scale build up on it, and then only after being soaked in a degreaser. Most commercial filter cleaner are propriatary mixtures of some type of acid and degreaser so they can usually do the job in one step.
  8. TSP (the real stuff, NOT the substitute sold in many areas where phosphates are banned) is the best filter cleaner there is for chlorine and bromine systems. It is what is recommended by most of the OEM and replacement filter manufacturers such as Unicel and Pleatco. Hose off, soak overnight in a solution of one cup TSP to every 5 gallons of water, and then hose off again. If you live in an area where real TSP has been banned because of phosphates (Florida for example) then you can use powdered automatic dishwasher detergent such as Electrosol or Cascase instead of TSP. It costs a bit more but works just as well! Use the same one cup to each 5 gallons of water for soaking. If you are using biguanide (SoftSoak, BaquaSpa, Revacil, etc) for sanitation you need to use a special filter cleaner designed for biguanide systems to remove the grey sticky film that forms on the filter. Once it is removed you can soak in TSP if you need to ( you usually don't if you are cleaning your filter regularly). If you use TSP without removing the film first with a special cleaner it wil turn into a gummy mess and your filter cartridge will need to be replaced!
  9. Like I said before, clear water does not always mean safe water. by the time the water is foul smelling and cloudy it will be REAL microbe soup!
  10. The rainwater should work but be aware that rainwater these days tends to be acidic. Be sure to test the pH and rasie it immediately to avoid damage to the heat exchanger in your tub. Did your dealer test for calcium hardness or total hardness. Total hardness is always higher than cacium hardness. A calcium hardness up to 400 ppm is not really a problem at all. Just keep tabs on your pH and don't let it climb too high (try to keep it around 7.6 at the most) and you should not have a problem with scale deposits. If you decide to use the rainwater make sure the pH is at least 7.2 when it is put in the tub and adjust your calcium to around 125 ppm or higher
  11. IF you pH is reading high right after adding the dichlor then it is possible that the chlorine is causing interference with the pH test. The reagent used to test pH is phenol red which tests a pH range of 6.8 to 8.2. In the presence of high chlorine levels it is converted to chlorophenol red which will give exactly the same color results for a ph of 4.8 to 6.6. If you are adding enough dichlor to raise your free chlorine in the nieghborhood of 10 ppm or higher you are likely to get this interferance with the pH test. The test might indicate that your pH is 8.0 or above but in reality it is much lower. If the phenol red has been converted to chloropheno red then all you really know about the pH is that it is somewhere above 6.8! Cheap test kits are more likely to have this problem. I recommend kits by Taylor Technologies because they include a chlorine neutralizer in their pH indicator which helps eliminate this problem.Try testing your pH and adjusting it before you add the dichlor and make sure your free chlorine reading is not high when you test the pH. This is a commen problem. There are various interferances that can give you inaccurate test results and most of the inexpensive test kits really don't doucment them. Compared to what your hot tub cost investing about $50-$60 in a GOOD test kit is really not a big investment. Test strips really don't have the precision needed for water balancing and the cheap kits just don't work that well. NEver try and test your pH ater shocking because it just won't work. Hope this helps
  12. if your bromine test is not changing color then it is safe to assume that their is probably NO residual sanitzer in your water! IMHO, that will provide a breeding ground for water borne nasties. There are only 3 EPA approved sanitizers for hot tubs--chorine, bromine, and biguaide (SoftSoak, BaquaSpa, Revacil, etc.). It's your tub so you can do what you want but personally, I would not soak in it if there was no sanitizer in the water.
  13. You just learned what can happen from pathogens in the water. What you got sounds like hot tub folliculitis from pseudomonas. It is one of the most commen things you can catch in a hot tub. If you smelled a strong chlorine smell in the hotel hot tub (you said you thought the chlorine was too high so I am assuming you could smell a chlorine odor....that would be chloramines) then the tub was NOT properly sanitzed and needed MORE chorine to break down the chloramines. This is what we call 'shocking' and it is why we do it!
  14. Just be aware that water that looks clean and clear can have harmful pathogens growing in it well before it starts to get cloudy and smell.
  15. Because the presence of CYA lowers the redox potential of the water. What that means is that when an ORP electrode is used to measure the oxidizing power (sanitizing power) of the chlorine in the water the presence of CYA inhibits it and causes a lower reading. The ORP reading is used to determine how effective the chlorine is at killing water borne pathogens. Higher readings mean more sanitizing power. A reading of 650 mV is considered to be the minimum reading for a properly sanitized spa by most health departments. In a nutshell, while CYA (either added seperately or by using dichlor) will help prevent the chlorine by being destroy by sunlight by forming chloroisocyanurates, the chloroisocyanurates are not as effective at killing pathogenis in the water. Some state Health departments now feel that even small amounts of CYA are enough to allow some of the pathogens that are present in hot tubs to live too long before being killed. The other side of this coin is that if the tub is exposed to the sun the chlorine is destroyed in a matter of literally minutes leaving no chlorine in the tub at all! It's really a catch-22. My feelings on the matter is that the CYA level should be monitored and should not be allowed to get muich over 30 ppm. If it does then some of the water needs to be replaced to lower the CYA. This is why I personally llike adding the CYA to the correct level(IMHO, about 30 ppm) and then using only unstabilized chlorine (liquid chlorine or bleach) for both sanitation and shock. This way no additonal cyanurates are added to the water like when dichor is used. This is also why I don't like test strips for water blalancing and testing. They just don't have the precision to measure the levels accurately enough. A good drop based kit from a company such as Taylor Technologies or LaMotte is a good investment and the $60 or so for the kit is very small compared to what the tub cost you.
  16. A bit of misinformation here. You can RAISE the pH with borax, not lower it! It will raise pH with minimal impact on TA. To lower pH you need dry acid (sodium bisulfate) or Muriratic acid, which is very hard to use in a tub because you need to measre it by the teaspoon for the small amount of water in a hot tub! Stick with the dry acid. Baking soda (soidum bicarbonate) IS the same as Alkalinity increaser (raises BOTH pH and TA so be careful if your TA is where it's supposed to be, if your pH is low and your TA is normal or high you can raise the pH by turning on all the jets and bubblers and forcing the CO2 out of the water without affecting the TA) Washing soda (sodium carbonate, sal soda, soda ash) IS the same as pH increaser. Borax (sodium tetraborate) IS the same as such products as Proteam Supreme and Bioguard Optimizer. Proteam Gentle Spa is a mixture of sodium tetraborate and sodium bisulfate. Hope this clears it up.
  17. First understand that bleach IS chlorine. It's sodium hypochlorite...same as pool store liquid chlorine. Second, if you are filling with water from your pool and the pool doesn't have a metal problem why are you adding a metal remover to the spa? Some metal removers can cause some clouding of the water temporarily, depending on their ingredients and some of them recommend dropping your free chlorine levels before use and bringing the chlorine levels back up slowly, especially those that also contain a stain remover. Hope this helps
  18. Spa Frog has recently changed their website also. They used to say that their system was a silver, zinc, and limestone. They said the silver was bacteriostatic (it is with a cavet) and that the zinc was algaestatic. Now they just say siver and limestone and no longer claim that the zinc helps prevent algae, nor do they even list it. Limestone is another name for calcium carbonate. We also know calcium carbonate as the scale that forms in our spas from hard water and high calcium levels. To the best of my knowledge calcium carbonate does not in any way help sanitize the water! Silver is bacteriostatic but needs a very long contact time because it has very slow kill times. In a spa or pool you need enough residual sanitizer to provide quick kill times of water borne pathogens. IMHO, mineral systems do not provide safe water when used at reduced sanitizer levels but are very effective in draining your wallet.
  19. I'll repost the info I previously put under the thread "Rash". Hope it clears things up for you. Here it is: We just got a new shipment of Nature 2 spa cartridges in and I noticed the packaging was different and had a 2006 copyright on it so I opened one and read the instruction pamphlet, also copyright 2006!....low and behold it it NO LONGER a chlorine free system or LOW CHLORINE system! The "Old recipe" (which is STILL on their website) was : 1) on each refill add 1 teaspoon dichlor for each 250 gal water (this will bring the fc to 2 ppm) 2) before each use add 1 tablespoon MPS per 250 gallons OR 1/3 teaspoon dichlor (this will bring the FC to about .5 ppm) 3) once a week shock with 3 tablespoons MPS per 250 gal, the preferred way OR (in very fine print it says that 1 tablespoon dichlor can be subistituted which will bring the FC to about 6 ppm...hardly shock level!) 4) As needed or if water looks hazy shock with 1 teaspoon dichlor per 250 gal (2 ppm...hardly shock level!) 5) Drain, refill, put in new Nature 2 cartridge and start over every 4 months. The "New recipe" as of 2006 is: 1) on each refill add 1 1/2 TABLESPOONS dichlor for each 250 gal water (this will bring the fc to about 10 ppm...can anyone say 'shock'?) 2) before each use add 1 tablespoon MPS per 250 gallons (1 teaspoon dichlor can be substituted...this will raise the FC 2 ppm!) 3) once a week shock with 1 1/2 TABLESPOONS dichlor per 250 gal, the use of MPS for weekly shocking is no longer even an option! (this will bring the FC to about 10 ppm...standard shock level!) 4) As needed or if water looks hazy shock with 1 TABLESPOON dichlor per 250 gal (6 ppm...Isn't this normal chlorination for a spa?!) 5) Drain, refill, put in new Nature 2 cartridge and start over every 4 months. Seems to me that this is pretty much standard spa maintenace on chlorine without a Nature 2 cartridge! (and I wonder if the MPS before each use is really necessary if you are maintaining a FC level of 6 ppm! I think not!) My question is why even bother with the Nature 2 cartridge? This is, IMHO, pretty much an admission on the part of Zodiac that the Nature 2 cartridge does NOTHING for the spa except lighten your wallet!
  20. any product that recommends raising your free chlorine level to between 20 to 75 ppm when the water becomes cloudy, smelly, or develops algae is certainly NOT any kind of santizer!
  21. All forms of sodium hypochlorite, whether laundry bleach or liquid pool chlorine are mostly water and some salt (sodium chloride, table salt) that is a byproduct of the manufacturing process. The water and salt are the "inert ingredients". The pH of 11 is because of the sodium hydroxide content that is necessary to keep it stable (otherwiste the chorine would not stay in solution). The salt added to your spa has absolutely no effect (if it did any pool or spa with a salt water chlorine generator would be in trouble and they work just fine!) There is absolutely no reason why you cant use liquid sodium hypochorte, whether laundry bleach or liquid chlorine in your spa. Pool liquid chlorine is approx. twice as stronge but it breaks down much faster on storage. If you are concerned about the pH realize that when the chlorine reacts in the water it produces an acid reaction that is enough to effectively negate the pH of the sodium hypochlorite added so the effect on your spa water pH is minimal. ALL other forms of chlorine (dichlor, cal hypo, litium hypochlorite) have a greater impact on water pH! There is absolutely no reason why liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) cannot be used in a spa! It is my first choice for shocking. If it is used for normal chlorination and the spa is exposed to sunlight and outdoors then Cyanuric acid (stabilizer) needs to be added to the water to about 30 ppm to protect the chlorine from the sun. If dichlor is used for normal sanitation this is not necessary since dichlor is about half cyanuric acid. This is also the reason that dichlor should NOT be used for shocking since the cyanuric acid will build up too quickly and cause the spa to need to be drained and refilled in a much shorter time than normal (possibly after a few weeks, depending on the amount of dichlor used as shock and how often the spa is shocked). Also be aware that many public health departments are now recommending that dichlor NOT be used in spas and only unstablilized chlorine (sodium hypochlorite, calcium hypochlorite, lithium hypochlorite) be used and that cyanuric acid NOT be added. This does make keeping the chlorine levels high enough a problem unless you check your water daily, however!
  22. If you are using a chlorine system then you want to use a non stabilized form of chlorine for shocking and a stabilized form of chorine for santizer if the spa is exposed to sun. If the spa is indoors you want to use only non stabilzied chlorine since the buildup of Cyanuric acid in the water from stabilized chlorine is detrimental. Also, some State public health departmens are now saying that no form of stabilized chlorine should be used in a hot tub but this makes maintenance very difficult if the spa is exposed to the sun. The purpose of stabilizer is to protect the chlorine from breaking down in sunlight but it also inhibits it's efficiency at killing microorganisms in the water. There is only one form of stabilized chlorine that should ever be used in a hot tub and that is dichlor. It will cause a slow pH drop with continued use but it's impact on the pH is very small.The other stabilized chlorine, trichlor, is too slow dissolving and acidic to use in a tub. Any of the non stabilized chlorines are suitable for hot tub use. They are: Lithium Hypochlorite---very fast dissolving but very very expensive to use. It has a high pH but because of the acidic reaction that occurs when the free chlorine is in the water it's effect on the spa pH is minimal. IT might cause a slight pH rise over time Calcium Hypochlorite (Cal Hypo)--often sold as 'spa chlorine sanitizer' and 'spa shock'. slow dissolving, can cause the water to cloud, adds calcium (hardenss) to the water and can lead to scaling, especially if your fill water is hard to start with. It has a high pH and will cause the pH in the spa to rise over time. Sodium hypochlorite (My choice)- - This is liquid chlorine which is available in 12.5%, 10% and 6% strenths in pool supply stores and also in grocery stores as laundry bleach in both 6% (ultra bleach), 5.25% (reglular bleach) and 3% (some of the cheap off brand laundry bleaches so read your labels!). Laundry bleach is an excellent shock, btw! You want the regular, unscented type...no florals,or special additives. Sodium hypochorite in any of it's forms has a high pH but because of the acidic reaction of the free chlorine in the water the net effect of spa water pH is usually 0! (The chemistry involved is a bit more complicated than just measuring the pH of the chlorine itself. It's a bit involved so I won't go into it here) For shocking a 400 gallon spa 1 cup of regular laundry bleach will raise your free chlorine to well above 10 ppm (actully, around 15 ppm) so it is more than enough. MPS, non chlorine shock, is expensive and is actually best used in indoor spas and with bromne systems (although liquid chlorine is actually a more effective and less expnsive shock for bromine systems.) MPS is NOT a sanitizer and should not be used as one...also MPS needs to be used on a REGULAR basis so there is always a residual in the water or you will get the formation of chloramines. MPS will NOT break down choramines and if they form you will need to shock with chlorine to destroy them. Also MPS makes water testing more difficult since it will read as part of your total chlorine reading unless you use a reagent to eliminte the interferace from it in your testing. Taylor Technologies sells a reagent to remove the MPS interfence for their DPD and FAS-DPD chlorine test kits for those who use MPS as a shock. one final thought on spa sanitation with chlorine. If you do not want to use dichlor as your primary sanitizer AND you spa is exposed to sunlight then you can use a non stabilized form of chlorine (which one doesn' matter) if yo add enough cyanuric acid (stabilizer) to the water to achieve a 30 ppm level. If you do this do NOT use any dichlor but only non stabilzied chorine. Chlorine levels in a spa should NEVER be below 2 ppm and ideally should be maintained betweeen 4-8 ppm (anything under 10 ppm is safe to be in according to most State health departments). When you shock the spa you should raise your free chlorine levels to at least 12-15 ppm and wait for the level to drop below 10 ppm before entering the spa. This is usually only a matter of hours. Be sure to leave the cover off the spa when you shock it so the ammonia compounds and nitrogen gas can dissapate into the air.
  23. Nowhere on their website do they say that it is EPA approved as a sanitizer. Also, in small print they say it is compatible with chlorine and bromine. There are several enzyme products on the market (I like NaturalChemsitry's Spa Perfect myself) but this is the only one that I have seen that implies that it will sanitize the water. All the others that I have ever seen still say that they are NOT sanitizers and need to be used with an EPA approved sanitizer in the water. Enzymes will help break down organics and help reduce sanitizer demand but they will not kill water borne pathogens quickly (or at all!) , which is the purpose of a residual sanitizer in your water. Their website does make it sound like a miracle. Here is a quote from their website in the hints and tips section (Boldface by me): " At times you may experience an organic smell. This simply means Spa Magic has found contaminants and is working harder. This smell may suggest your filter requires more frequent cleaning. Check your pH, make sure it is between 8.0 and 8.4. Check the underside of your cover and clean if necessary. If the odor persists add two cups of chlorine bleach. If the odor gets stronger or persists for a long period of time add 1 to 2 quarts of bleach to really shock it good. Be patient. Spa Magic just need some time to do its job. Cloudy water may be caused by heavy usage, lotions, oils, deodorants, sun screen, other products used on the skin, or soap residues in bathing suits or your hair. To clear up cloudy water 4 to 6 ounces of water clarifier or two cups of bleach can be used to speed up recovery time. Be patient, the water will clear up and does not have to be drained, Spa Magic just needs some time to do its job. The Penetrating Spa Cleanser does not always remove all the contaminants in your system also there is always a little water left in the plumbing and pump. You may get a reaction, causing cloudy or green tinted water. Just add two cups of bleach and your water will clear up." It seems that they admit that the spa might get cloudy or smell or turn green (algae). These are all indications of an unsantized spa. They recommend adding bleach to fight this. Bleach is sodium hypochorite which is the same as pool store liquid chlorine except about half the strength. Two cups of bleach in a 400 gal spa will raise the free chlorine levels to almost 20 ppm! One quart will raise it to about 37.5 ppm and two quarts to about 75 ppm! This is way beyond shock level. It it more like nuking the spa! This much chlorine will certainly clear green, cloudy, or smelly water whether you have spa magic in it or not. So much for their claim of a chemical free spa! Seems they are admitting that chlorine is needed with their product.
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