waterbear

I would contact the manufacturer of your bromine generator for this info (or check the instruction manual) as it will depend on whether your system uses only sodium bromide or uses sodium chloride (salt) and sodium bromide.

Just for a bit of clarification...there are basically 2 ways salt bromine generators are set up, depending on the manufacturer. One way uses sodium bromide exclusively and directly produces hypobromous acid. The other uses sodium chlorine to achieve the salt level(acutally chloride ion level in the water) and then soduim bromide is added to create a "bromide bank" in the water just like any other bromine system that uses chlorine for an oxizider. The cell actually produces chlorine (hypochlorous acid). This then immediately oxidizes the bromide ions in the water into hypobromous acid...the sanitizer we call bromine.) In either case the chemical tests for the salt level, whether sodium chlorine or sodium bromide is pretty much done the same way with either test strips. If you are using sodium chloride and adding soidum bromide then you can use a chemical test for chloride ions such as the Taylor K_1766 instread of the strips. In either case you can test your bromine levels with a good dop based kit such as the Taylori K-2106 FAS-DPD kit for bromine.

How are you storing it? If you keep it in the house with your laundry use bleach perhaps it will last as long. Like I said, just test your levels and if they are not high enough then just add some more! Not really rocket science!

To the best of my knowledge this has not been approved as a sanitizer by the EPA in the United States, however hydrogen peroxide in conjunction with biguanide has.

Chemgeek, Thank you for clearing that up for me. I did not make the somwhat out of context connection because I was discussing (and thinking of) the thread topic of a pool that turned green immediately after shocking and had 'metals on the brain' so to speak . You actually answered it much better than I could and did bring up the important point that the presence of CYA in the equation alters things considerably from how it is normally presnented (or even thought of in the industry)! Excellent!

Best test kit for bromine is the Taylor K-2106....Pricey but worth every penny. When you consider that you spent thousnds of dollars on your spa is about $60 really a lot of money for a good test kit? It will make balancing your water much easier in the long run! If you are using bromine you need to start with sodium bromide in the water to create your bromine bank. This is even more important with an ozonator since it takes several weeks for tabs by themselves to dissolve enought to create the 'bank' and until they do any chlorine in the tabs (yes, there is chlorine in bromine tabs...this is what activates them) will tend to get destroyed by the ozone.. As far as pH dropping....both bromine tabs and MPS shock are acidic and will cause your pH to drop. You can lessen this by switching from an MPS based shock to liquid chlorine for shocking. The easiest liquid chlorine to use in a hot tub for shocking is laundry bleach. One cup of regular (5.25%) or 3.4 cip of ultra (6%) bleach will effectively shock 250 gallons (but you need to have your bromide bank established in the water first by adding the sodium bromide on filling or you will end up with a chlorine spa.). As for the pros and cons of bromine vs. chlorine....IMHO, chlorine is less work overall but requires a bit closer watching to maintain proper sanitizer levels. It is less likely to cause any rash or sensitivity (bromine is a known sentizier), and a properly maintained chlorine spa has practically no odor even with free chlorine levels at about 6 ppm. Bromine has a distinct chemical odor. Chlorine is MUCH less expensive to run than bromine. Bromine is a better choice for indoor spas (less chance of forming TMH's...byproducts of halogen sanitation that become a problem in indoor installations, it is not as fussy about temperature and pH....but is does require more fequent water balancing since it tends to have a negative impact on total alkainity. It is easier to maintain a proper sanitizer level even if the spa gets ignored for a short time (if you are using a 3-step bromine system with tabs in a floater). I have personally kept spas using both systems and I can tell you that I definitely prefer chlorine over bromine although a chlorine spa is not as forgiving of a week or two's neglect as a 3-step bromine spa is.In the long run I found chlorine to be less work even if it does take more frequent attention (read 'daily or at best every other day', not that different from a pool kept on chlorine!)

IF stored properly (out of sunlight and high heat) laundry bleach is supposed to have a shelf life of about 9 months once opened from what I have been able to research and determine. ALL forms of liquid chlorne will lose their effectiveness over time. The stronger the solution the less stable it is. Pool store liquid chlorine 12.5% is good for about 6 weeks if stored properly. If you are using bleach for chlorinating I don't see any problem. You will use it up before it losses its potency. Just remember to test your free chlorine levels and of the normal amount of chlorine is not producing them then just use more. Don't go by how much you add....go by what the test results tell you is in the water!

Yes, that is a 3-step bromine system. Their might be some variances among different manufacturer's products but in essence that is how bromine works. You need a bromine reserve in the water on filling, you need an oxidizer to convert the bromide ions into active sanitizer, and you should shock the tub weekly to raise the active sanitizer level high and burn off organics in the water. If you are using ozone you still need to shock because much of the ozone will get used up oxidizng the bromide into hypobromous acid on a constant basis while the ozone is running. Whether you shock with chlorine or MPS is your choice, one is not any better than the other. Liquid chlorine will have less impact on pH than MPS and will not put sufates into the water. (Liquid chlorine is the same as laundry bleach, btw.) There really is no reason to use a stabilized chlorine (dichlor) to shock a bromine system. One cup of regular (5.25%) or 3/4 cup of ultra (6%) bleach is an effective shock per 250 gallons. If you have any fears that the chlorine will be in the water it is immedately converted into bromine sanitizer when there is a reserve of bromide ions in the water. (If you nave not established the bromine reserve then you will have a chlorine system when you shock, if you shock with MPS you will just have unstanized water) Tabs by themselves will not keep the water sanitized until enough of them have dissoved to generate the bromide reserve in the water. They are very slow dissolving and ti can leterally take weeks after a fresh fill before you get bromine levels that will hold. Also be aware that the majority of tabs also contain chlorine to oxidize the bromine into hypobromous acid. I know of one on the market that contains MPS instead of chlorine but personally see no benefit to this type of product other than marketing hype ("Chlorine is bad, use bromine, we have the only bromine tablet with NO chlorine, etc.")

Crushing a few tabs is one way but most people add sodium bromide to the water on each refill. HTH sells it under the name "Brom-Start", Robarb sell it as a liquid (Bromaspa Liquid) and a powder (Bromine Energizer), LeisureTime sells it as a powder(Sodium Bromide). There are others. It is usuually added in the amount of 1 oz of the powder per 200 gal creating a 30 ppm bromide reserve in the water.

The tabs are very slow dissovling and will not put enough bromine ions into the water for literally weeks. Some people crush up a few tabs when the initially fill the spa but it is much easier just to add some sodium bromide on each fill. The dichlor is a chlorine shock. It is an effective oxidizer for a bromine system. If you have established a 'bromine reserved" in the water with sodium bromide then your ozone generator will oxidize that to hypobromous acid whenever it is running. If you are relying solely on the tabs to do this it can literally take weeks before there are enough bromine ions in the water and you are really running a chlorine system until that happens. Ozone does tend to destroy chlorine. The net effect of your ozone generator, once you have established a bromine reserve in the water, is that your use of dichlor will be much less to maintain proper bromine levels. You should not even be looking at the chlorine levels on your test kit when you test since any chlorine you put in the spa is converted immediately to the bromine santizer, btw.

I think a clarification of how a bromine system works might be in order. First a reserve of bromine ions needs to be established in the water ('bromine bank"). This is usually accomplished by adding sodium bromide on each fill of the spa. Then an oxidizer is added to convert the bromine ions into the active sanitizer, hypobromous acid. The most commen oxidizers used are chlorine (most commenly used are dichlor granules and liquid chlorine--sodium hypochlorite. Laundry bleach IS sodium hypchlorite, btw. Calcium hypochlorite is less commonly used but it's use is on the upswing since some manufacuters such as Arch Chemical have discontinued dichlor for spa use.), MPS (potassium monopersulfate or non chlorine shock), and ozone. It is the amount of oxidizer added that determines the level of bromine sanitizer in the water. The more oxidizer the higher your bromine will read on testing since more of the bromine ions in the water will be converted into hypobromous acid. Ozone does not really allow you to run a lower bromine level but tends to provide a more constant level of bromine present. Tabs will contain both the bromine and an oxidizer (usually chlorine but at least one product on the market has MPS intstead) but are very slow dissolving so they still need the bromine bank established before their use and still require the use of an oxidizer. Tt can literally take weeks to establish a bromine level that holds in the water if only tabs are used without first adding sodium bromide to the water! Their purpose is to help maintain a more constant bromine level by supplying a constant supply of bromine ions and oxidizer with less user intervention. The use of sodium bromide and an oxidizer is usually referred to as a 2-step bromine system. The use of sodium bromide, oxizider, and tabs a 3-step bromine system. Some manufacturers will combine the sodium bromide and an oxidizer (often dichlor) into a one step powder but additional oxidizer or "shock" is still needed on a regular (usually weekly) basis. ALL bromine systems benefit from shocking (oxidizing) on a regular basis to raise the bromine levels and to help burn off organics and destroy bromamines that form in the water. (Some sources say that bromamines are also effective santiizers but some research indicates that they are not as effective as previously thought). Hope this helps.

This is a combined product that has both sodium bromide and a form of chlorine in it to oxidize the sodium bromide into hypobromous acid.

Also be aware that ozone will deplete your chlorine levels so be sure to test them and add dichlor before each use if your free chlorine is below 2 ppm. One teaspoon per 250 gallons should put you in the ballpark for proper sanitation.

Hope this is helpful.

A few questions....are you using a bromine system or a chorine system? Have you tested your fill water for metals? If there are no metals (copper or iron) in your fill water the MetalX is not necessary and is just an unneeded expense! What type of chlorine tabs are you using? Trichlor (tabs) is not usually recommended for use in spas, it is very acidic and slow dissolving. The Sani-spa is just dichlor, a ganular form of stabilized chlorine that is the most commen type of chlorine used in spas. . This means you have a chlorine spa and NOT a bromine spa so you should not be testing for bromine, only chlorine. Chlorine and ozone work together to snaitize the water well but ozone will destroy chlorine so your results are not uncommen. If your spa is exposed to sunlight that will also burn off the chlorine very fast until the stabilizer levels in the water reach about 20 ppm from the dichlor. (Both dichlor and trichlor are stabilized chlorine, that meant that in addition to chlorine they also add stabililizer--cyanuric acid-- to the water. Stabilizer protects chlorine from sunlight but too much decreases it's ability to sanitize) Also, do not depend on test strips, they just do not have the precision for water balancing although they are good for quick checks. Invest in a good drop based kit (I like the Tayor K-2006 for chlorine). You spent thousands on your spa, is about $60 really a lot to spend on a good test kit? To sum things up, you seem to have a chorine spa ozone WILL lower your chlorine levels if it runs 24/7 but does santize the water while it is running so as long as your chlorine levels are ok before you go in you should be fine....adding a teaspoon for each 250 gallons of water should get you in the ballpark. The use of trichlor tabs in a spa is usually not recommended becuase they are extremely acidic. Sunligjht will burn off your chlorine in a matter of minutes until the stabilizer levels build up to about 20 ppm or higher....once they get above about 60 ppm then the santizing ability of your chlorine is compromised. You should maintain your free chlorine levels at between 4-6 ppm, never let them drop below 2 ppm and you can go in the spa whenever they are below 10 ppm. Don't depend on test strips but invest in a GOOD drop based test kit. It will not only give you more precise reults but it will make your spa maintenance much easier in the long run! Hoe this is helpful!

Test strips are accurate, however they are not precise which is not the same thing. For example, while the color change of the pH pad is accurate the range of pH that they give you for a particular color make it next to impossible to balance your water correctly. You are not testing the sodium bromide in the water, which you added along with salt when you filled the spa. The sodium bromide creates a 'bromine bank' and the salt is converted into chlorine by the salt water generator. The chlorine then convertes the bromine ions from the sodium bromide into the active bromine sanitizer, hypobromous acid. This is exactly what happens in ANY bromine spa whether it uses a salt generator, sodium bromide and shock (2 step bromine) or sodium bromide, shock and bromine tabs (3-step bromine). I would suggest investing in a GOOD drop based test kit. For bromine systems I like the Taylor Technologies K-2106. The tests are easy to do, produce accurate results, and are very easy to read! You can search for Taylor Technologies on the internet and can order directly from them if you cannot find the kit locally. Many people don't want to spend the money on a good test kit but will spend thousands on the best spa they can get. An investment of about $60 or so in a really good test kit will make maintaining your spa so much easier. You also might want to get a Taylor K-1766 to test for the salt level in your water. It is important to maintain a proper salt level so the salt generator can generate the chlorine that converts the sodium bromide you added to the water to hypobromous acid. Your bromine levels are too high....this is because your salt generator is turned up too high and is generating too much chlorine. If you had a standard 2 step bromine system this would be equvalent to adding too much shock too often to your spa. Turn your generator's output down and let your bromine level drop to about 4-6 ppm and you should be fine. As far as the smell goes, bromine systems do have a 'chemical' smell' that some people find offensive. This is one of their drawbacks. However, once you get your bromine levels in line you should find the smell is much less noticable and the bleaching of the swimsuits should stop.

The strips are actually tesing the amount of hypobromous acid in the water, not the amount of sodium bromide. Your salt water generator acually produces chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) which then oxidized the bromine ions in the water and forms the hypobromous acid ( the active sanitizer in any bromine sanitation system). This is just an automated way of doing a 2 step bromine system where sodium bromide is added to the ewater and then chlorine is added to activate it. I would suggest that you turn the output on your generator down so it produces less chlorine and this will, in turn, produce less bromine santizer in your water. Your bromine levels should be around 4-6 ppm. Hope this helps.

ALL ionizer systems, whether electronic or passive "mineral systems" (like N2 and SpaFrog) work by putting metal ions (copper, silver, and/or zinc) into the water. These metal ions have bacteriostatic and algaestatic properties and this is what helps sanitizer your water. Metal sequestering agents react with thiese metal ions (whether from an ionizer system or present in the fill water) and deactivate their activity. They don't remove them from the water but do make them chemically non reactive. There is no difference, as far as the sequestering agent is concerned, as to whether the metals came from the fill water or an ionizer. Jack's Magic does have a product called "The Ionizer Stuff" which is supposed to help prevent copper staining with ionizer systems. Whether it is compatible with N2 I do not know. I don't really know anything about this product since I have no experience with it. I don't know if it is effective against iron or other metals present in fill water. IMHO, the use of a seqestering agent and and ionizer system is conterproductive. Hope this is helpful.

for chlorine I like the Taylor Tehcnolgies K-2006, for bromine the K-2106. They use the FAS-DPD test for chlorine or bromine, which is the easiest and most accurate one and it does not bleach out when sanitzier levels are high! The Taylor pH reagent will give accurte readings when sanitizer levels are high (most will not) and their TA and calcium tests have distinct endpoints and are very easy to read. (No, I don't work for them! I do, however, own several different test kits including 5 from Taylor). LaMotte also makes some decent test kits but I like the Taylor liquid reagents better than the LaMotte tablets. I find them much easier to use.

Try shocking the spa and see if you get a bromine reading. The bromine needs to be activated by either chorine or a non chlorine shock to be converted into the active sanitizer, hypobromous acid. the tablets by themselves will take a very long time before they will do this since they only contain a very little bit of chorine. Also, if they are 4 years old they might have lost strength. Try it again with fresh chemicals. Hope this is helpful.

For people twho have a true sentivivity to halogens (chlorine and bromine) then biguaide is about the only alternative there is! It is an effective sanitizing system. Biggest drawbacks are the price, the more frequent filter cleaning, and the possibility of water mold forming. Other than that it might just be the ticket for you!

Currently I have an inground pool/spa combo that is chlorinated with a salt water generator. I keep my pool at about 4 ppm free chlorine and the spa at about 6 ppm but that is not applicable to most people with portable hot tubs. Before I had my pool built I did own portable hot tubs, the first a modest 300 gal.and the other a big 500 gal. I kept them on both bromine and chlorine systems I never had ozonators, ionizers, etc. Just the basics and they did great with minimum effort. Chlorine is pretty easy. I used dichlor for chlorination. 1 teaspoon raises the free chlorine about 2 ppm for 250 gallon. I tested the water daily (using a GOOD test kit, not one of the cheapie ones) until I really knew my spa so I could maintain a FC of about 6 ppm without having to test daily . With my last spa I needed to put in the diclor about every 3 days if the spa didn't get any use and if I used it I had to put some in after each use every time I used it. I would shock it when the combined chlorine was higher than the free chlorine. I shocked with liquid chlorine ( actually laundry bleach...same thing just more dilute) since it would not add any stabilizer. Dichlor is stablized chlorine so it is not the best thing to shock with. I needed to shock maybe once a week. (3/4 cup of ultra bleach, 6% or just under 1 cup of regular 5.25% bleach per 500 gal is about right I had to lower my pH with dry acid every so often but my fill water had fairly high alkalinity and perfect hardness so I didn't have to mess with baking soda and calcium that often. I drained it about every 4 months and refilled. I never used any metal removers (no metals in the fill water) The most important thing is to not ignore it, even if you are not using it. Test the water often (daily at first) and learn how much of each chem you need on a regular basis. It really becomes a no brainer after a short while. 5 minutes a day can prevent major headaches in getting the spa back in balance after being ignored! Bromine was a bit trickier to use but was a bit more maintenance free in terms of daily care. It took me a little while to learn a method that worked well for me. What worked best was: on filling I would add sodium bromide to create a bromine bank in the water and then shock with liquid bleach to activate it (convert the sodium bromide to hypobromous acid, the active sanitizer). I then put a floater with bromine tabs in the spa and ajusted it until my bromine levels were maintained at about 6 ppm. This was the tricky part! I would shock it with bleach after each use or once a week if I didn't use it. If my bromine was low and I wanted to use the spa I would shock with MPS (non chlorine shock) to reactive the bromine CAREFULLY (or the bromine levels would get too high and I would have to wait for them to drop to use the spa) I did have more water balancing problems with bromine....had to adjust the total alkalinity and raise the pH fairly often, especially when I used the MPS. I drained and refilled about evey 4 months and added the sodium bromide and shocked to start the whole process again. Once again, daily testing until I really knew how the spa reacted under normal use was the key! I never messed with biguainde systems only because I knew how expensive they are and I saw first hand some of the problems that eventually occured with my customers that used them in their pools or spas. ( I am not a spa dealer, btw, I work in a pool and spa supply store) Hope this is helpful.

spatech is right! You need an EPA approved sanitizer. There are only three of them--chlorine, bromine and biguanide/hydrogen peroxide (Baquaspa, SoftSoak, Revacil, etc.) I personally think chlorine is the easiest to use with the fewest problems. ALL other sanitizer systems (ozone, ioniozers and "mineral" systems (they put copper, silver, and/or zinc into your water so are hardly chemical free!), enzymes, magnets, UV light, etc. are all auxillery systems that need to be used with a sanitizer. Some of them can help reduce your sanitizer demand (Ozone is GREAT with bromine systems), others are pretty much worthless and just drain your wallet. One thing to remember is that contact time is important in santizing. You can't compare a house water sanitizing system to a spa. A spa has contaminents added to it constantly while it is in use from the bathers and needs to have enought fast acting sanitizer in the water to deal with this. A house water system does not and santizers that require a longer contact time to be effective can work. This is the most misunderstood fact about ioniers and mineral systems. Metal ions have a very slow kill time and can't act fast enough to kill pathogens that are intorduced into the water while soaking.

same chemical, different name. Most chemicals have more than one name. For example alkalinity increaser might be labeled sodium biccarbonate or sodium hydrogen carbonate....both a just names for baking soda. Another example is Dihydrogen monoxide. This is a very useful and commen chemical that is necessary for life but if it gets into your lungs it can kill you! Any idea what it is? It's water! (When you drown you get water in your lungs.) Think of it like this, if your name is Robert you might also be called Bob or Robbie but you are still the same person. IMHO, chlorine is the easiest and best sanitizer to use in a spa. What you are smelling might be chloramines (chlorine reacting with the organics on your skin.) In a properly maintained spa there should be little or no chloramine smell. If you could post a full set of test results for free chlorine, total chlorine, pH, total alkalinity, calcium hardness, and cyanuric acid (stablizer) then perhaps I could give you more information as to what is happening. The testing needs to be done with a liquid drop based test kit and NOT test strips. Strips do not have the precision needed to balance the water!