waterbear

You really shouldn't post when you don't know what you are talking about. It is not fair to the people looking for answers to their problems! Cartridge filters filter more efficiently than sand. Sand will filter to about 60 microns. Carts to about 20 microns. and DE to abut 6 microms. You are right that sand filtes are the easiest maintenance (must feel good to be finally right about something!) Old sand does not filter as well as new sand because the erosion of the water on the sand rounds off the facets that actually catch the dirt! Where did you ever come up with needing to wash a cart daily?!?!?!....You really don't need to wash the cart until the filter pressure has risen 8-10 psi and with a properly sized filter this will take months! (however, monthly cleaning will make maintenance much easier since it will take much less time to clean the cart if you do it often and not wait for it to get really plugged up with stuff) A properly maintained cart will last about 5 years, not one, and should be soaked in a degreaser to remove organics yearly. Acid washing will shorten the life of a cart and should only be done after soaking in a degreaser since acid will cause the organics to hardend into a cement like substance and ruin the cart. You only acid wash if there is scale buildup on the cart!. Carts actually come pretty close to DE in their filtering ability and are much less work!

This was already covered at the beginning of this thread when someone mentioned 'chlorine lock'. This would NOT explain the FC testing at 0 ppm since chloroisocyanurates DO test as FC! Anyway AAS stated that his/her CYA was at 40 ppm! This is certainly NOT going to overstabilze the pool and is, in fact, right in the middle of the 30-50 ppm recommended range for CYA!

BOGUS INFORMATION!!!!! Regular bleach is 5.25% sodium hypochlorite. Ultra bleach is 6 % sodium hypochlorite. Liquid chlorine is either 6% (SAME as ultra bleach) or 10% or 12.5% (usually sold as liquid shock). The higher the concentration the faster it loses strength so that 12.5 jug might only be around 8% by the time it goes into your pool after sitting for a week, while the 6% stuff will still most likely be 6% a month or so later! The only difference between any of them is the amount you need to add to get a given ppm of Free Chlorine. Rule of Thumb for dosing...1 gallon will raise 10000 gallons of water approx. the percentage of chlorine in the sodium hypochlorite. Thus 1 gallon of 6% will raise 10000 gallons about 6 ppm and 1 gallon of 10% will raise 10000 gallons about 10 ppm, etc. There is no such thing as 'detergent algecide'. There are linear quats which foam (perhaps this is what you mean), polyquat which, IMHO, is the only algecide you should ever use, copper and silver based algecides which WILL cause staining if you have enough metal in the water to kill the algae, sodium bromide which will convert your chlorine pool to a bromine pool even if you add more chlorine (this effect is temporary), and inorganic ammonia compounds which form monochoramines to kill the algae. The last two types require the addtion of a lot of chlorine repeatedly for them to be effective and tend to create a lot of problems such as a hugh chlorine demand in the pool until they 'burn off' in a week or two.

BOGUS!!!!!!! Phosphates MIGHT be a cause of repeated algae blooms but are ususlly NOT the limiing factor. Algae also feed off of nitrogen compounds and these are far more commen in poosl than phosphates (where do you think chloramines come from?) IF you have no nitrogen compounds in the pool AND have high phosphates then reducing the phosphate might work but this is ususlly NOT the case!

Do you even have a clue as to how the NaturalChemisty line works? It is based on enzymes (which are actually protiens) and they break down (digest) organics.All you do is repeat sales patter and give no information. I find that very sad when people are coming here with problems and looking for answers.

Sorry to burst your bubble but ANY oxidizer will make metal staining worse....this includes Lithium Hypo, cal hypo, sodium hypo....any form of chlorine, in fact. Sodium bisulfate will work, as will muriatic acid since they will reduce the oxidation state of the iron and it becomes soluable in the water....A seqesterant needs to be added to keep it from staining again. Ascorbic acid is no secret....It (or oxalic acid) is the ingredient in the majority of stain treatments on the market. They work by reducing the oxidation state of the iron oxide also. Ascorbic acid is the chemical name for vitamin C. Rose hips happen to be an excellent source of vitamin c. Once again a seqesterant needs to be added to prevent restaining. If the stains are organic (say tannins from leaves) then chlorine will help to remove them but not metal stains such as rust!. BTW, mineral stains (including scaling from calcium) ARE metal stains!

And it is the most expensive form of chlorine you can buy! You must like the profit margin from the sale of it! What is wrong with Sodium Hypochlorite! OR even Cal Hypo, with all its disadvantages....they are both unstabilzed chlorine also. Sodium Hypo is my first choice. It is cheap, readily availabe, easy to dose, and has minimal impact on water chemisty....even affects pH less tha lithium hypo!

You never cease to amaze me! Phenol Red is the indicator used in both test strips and in drop based kits. It will tell you the pH but nothing about TA. TA is tested by difererent indicators with a titraton test! I really hope that you don't do any water testing for people!

The filter is a standard sand filter and the filter medium you have is just zeolite. It it being pushed as a "new miracle" filter medium but is only slightly more efficient than sand. It's main advantage is the ability to scavange ammonia compounds from the water. It needs to be regenerated yearly with a brine solution to keep the ammonia scavagine property. And just like sand it does need cleaning on a regular (usually yearly ) basis. If you could post a complete set of test results it would help to figure out what is going on in your pool.

MPS= potassium monopersulfate= non chlorine shock= DuPont Oxone (they developed it and manufacture it...everyone else just repackages it). Most people in the industry know what MPS is by this commen acronym.

There is no indicator called phenol blue! I don't know what the rep gives you but you might want to find out what it really is. I doubt you are testing the pH range of 3.0 to 4.6. EcoSmarte is a copper ionizer so perhaps the test you are doing is for copper and not pH. BTW, this is a quote off the Eco Smart website " ECOsmarte chemical free swimming pool systems have been in use for the past 10 years and have sold worldwide as a 100% chlorine and chemical free alternative. In Australia the APVMA does not allow this and requires pool owners to use an approved (read chlorine) sanitiser in conjunction with these systems." (empahsis mine....what do you think they know in Australia that we don't know here?) Also, Ecosmarte and Eco One are not the same. Eco One is an enzyme based cleaner that is used in conjunction with chlorine, bromine, copper, ozone, etc. I think the only thing it is not compatible with is biguinide. There are several such products on the market. Perhaps NaturalChemisty's Spa Perfect line is the most well known product of this type.

Are you referreing to lithium hypochlorite for iron and mineral stains....and by mineral stains do you mean metal stains?

High sanitizer levels can cause interferance with the pH test and give bogus high readings. I suggest that you let your bromine levels drop to normal range of about 6 ppm and then test pH....you might find that it is lower than you think! Also I would use a drop based reagent to test, not strips. If you can find a store that uses the Taylor Technologies testing reagents their pH indicator has a halogen neutralizer built in and will give accurate readings at higher sanitizer levels than test strips and some of the cheapie test kits.

Sorry to be blunt but your knowledge (or lack thereof) of chemistry has been demostrated in several posts. TDS is a bogus measurement except in very special circumstances and with a hot tub is really trivial since hot tubs are drained and refilled every 1-3 months! Zodiac is the one who recommends dichlor for use with the N2 spa system. I have my own feelings about the effectiveness of N2 but I will not go into them here since I DO sell them. Chlorine, in any form, is certainly safer in terms of water sanitation with the N2 in a spa than MPS! IF you want to keep a chlorine residual at the low level that N2 recommends in the USA then you need to have some CYA in the water if the spa is exposed to sunlight or the residual will be gone very quickly and the spa is NOT sanitized. If the spa gets no sun exposure then it isn't necessary but it really won't hurt anything. At the normal dosing level of dichlor not that much CYA builds up in the 1-3 month period between water changes. It is intersting that in Austrailia the use of any coppper/silver product whether an ionizer or a passive device like the N2 requires standard chlorine levels and not reduced levels like in the USA!

to the best of my knowledge this stuff is accumulation of body oils, sunscreens, etc. that tend to collect. Therre are some enzyme based products that are pretty good at getting rid of it and keeping it from coming back if you use them regularly but they are expensive. What I have done is put a 'Scumbug' or a 'SunSorb' in my skimmer (same type of product from different companies). It is a sponge that absorbs these contaminents. They are usually used in spas but work great in pools also. When it gets dirty turn it over and when the second side is dirty you rinse it out and it's ready to go again. They cost about $6 in my area and last about a season. Been using them for many years now. An enzyme products like Pool First Aid from NaturalChemisty (there are other ones out there also from other companes....Jack's Magic has one aslo that I know of) will clean it up for you and then a scumbug will help keep it from collecting again.

Here is the info off the N2 website http://www.nature2.com/spas2.asp for running a spa on N2! "Spa Recipe Ingredients • Nature2 Purifier • Non-chlorine oxidizer (potassium peroxymonosulfate)* • Nature2 Spa Test Strips** or Test kits (pH, total alkalinity) • pH and total alkalinity adjusting chemicals • Dichlor When: What to do: Purifier Start Up Drain and refill your spa. Balance water per dealer guidelines. Add 1 teaspoon of dichlor to spa per 250 gallons (approx. 1000 litres). (Note: 1 teaspoon = 1/4 ounce = 7 grams.) Every Day Run spa according to recommendation supplied to you by the manufacturer of your spa Before Each Use Add 1 tablespoon of potassium peroxymonosulfate (MPS) to spa per 250 gallons (approx. 1000 litres) (Note: 1 tablespoon = 1 tablet = 3/4 ounce = 21 grams.) A convenient way to insure proper MPS level is to use a Nature2 Spa Test Strip. If the Nature2 Spa Test Strip indicates a low level of MPS, add 1 tablespoon of MPS to spa per 250 gallons and retest. Once A Week Add 3 tablespoons of potassium peroxymonosulfate to spa per 250 gallons (approx. 1000 litres). Check and adjust pH and total alkalinity. A convenient way to check pH and total, alkalinity levels is to use a Nature2 Spa Test Strip. Every 4 Months Drain and refill your spa. Replace Nature2 purifier, repeat purifier start-up. As Needed If water looks hazy, shock treat with 1 teaspoon of dichlor per 250 gallons (approx. 1000 litres) Important The Nature2 Spa Purifier is not to be used with products containing bromine, sodium bromide or biguanides. If these products are being used, be sure to drain and refill spa with fresh water. Note: • As an alternative to potassium monopersulfate, dichlor may be substituted: 1 teaspoon dichlor = 3 tablespoons potassium peroxymonosulfate. • The use of an efficient ozone generator with Nature2 may reduce the need for supplemental chemical treatments. * Potassium peroxymonosulfate may cause a lowering of the pH and total alkalinity of your spa water. Please monitor pH and total alkalinity at least once per week and adjust accordingly. ** Nature2 Spa Test Strips are available at your local Nature2 Dealer. Call 1-888-537-6657 for more information. "

What you are saying doesn't even make sense! Bromine is not compatible with N2 (this info can be found on the N2 website) but chlorine is essential with a N2 system even if you are using MPS shock. The N2 website states that when you first fill a spa with an N2 system you need to add dichlor!! Bromine does NOT interfere with ozone. Ozone will convert the bromine ions in the 'bromine bank' into hypobromous acid in much the same way chlorine or MPS will. Study up on the chemisty of bromine! Chorine and ozone tend to destroy each other with chlorine breaking down ozone and vice versa as follows: The chlorine atom attacks an ozone molecule (), breaking it apart and destroying the ozone. The result is an ordinary oxygen molecule () and a chlorine monoxide molecule (ClO). The chlorine monoxide molecule (ClO) is attacked by a free oxygen atom releasing the chlorine atom and forming an ordinary oxygen molecule (). The chlorine atom is now free to attack and destroy another ozone molecule (). One chlorine atom can repeat this destructive cycle thousands of times.

Actually, the best way to use ozone in a spa is with bromine. The ozone will constantly regenerate hypobromous acid (the active sanitizer) from the bromine bank in the water keeping the sanitizer levels constant!! Ozone should not be depended on as a primary sanitizer since it has no residual effects to speak of and it is not effective with chlorine sanitation since they tend to destroy each other.

pH down is pH decreaser is dry acid is sodium bisulfate....same thing! If you have any of the Baquacil pH decreaser just read the ingredients! the description of it on the Baquacil website is: "BAQUACIL pH DECREASER High-purity, highly active dry acid product used to lower pH and total alkalinity. Compatible with chlorine/bromine pools." empahsis mine! The pool store told you correct advice!

Hope this is helpful! As an alternative, you might want to consider staying with bromine and adding an ozone generator. Ozone is very effective at reactivating the bromine bank and is best used in a bromine pool. The constant regeneration of the bromine bank might help maintain a more even sanitizer level in your pool. In a chlorine pool ozone just kills the chlorine and chlorine kills the ozone so they fight against each other!

Like I said before, part of what is showing up on the test is the MPS and not bromine, You need the reserved of MPS in the water, unlike when shocking with chlorine. Just use the same amount and enjoy the spa. It is not your bromine that is that high. It is a combination of the bromine and the MPS that is reading on your test strips.

The purpose of shocking is to reactive the bromine in the spa. If you read the ingredients on your bromine tabs you will find that they contain chlorine. this is because chlorine is necessary to activate the bromine the first time. Once the bromine has been activated and a 'bromine bank' established in the water you can shock with either chlorine or MPS (non chlorine shock) to reactivate it. I don't want to get into too much chemistry here but this is necessary to keep proper sanitizer levels in the spa. how are you testing bromine levels? If you are using test strips then the high levels you are seeing after shocking are actually an interferance from the non chlorine shock and NOT your actual bromine levels. Excess MPS will stay in the water and show up on the test strip. If you shock with chlorine the free chorine all gets converted to hypobromous acid and there is no interferance with the test. To accurately determine what the bromine level is when you use an MPS shock you need to use an OTO, DPD, or "FAS-DPD drop test. The purpose of shocking is this. Hypobromous acid is the active sanitizer in your spa. When it reacts with a contaminant it is converted into bromide ions which are what make up the 'bromide bank' in your water. When the bromide ions are oxidized by either chlorine or MPS they reform hypobromous acid. If there is an excess of bromide ions in the spa water or you are shocking at too high a level then too much of the bromide is getting converted to hypobromous acid. If you don't shock then you will not have enough active sanitizer in the water to protect you from disease! Try closing your bromine floater a bit and using a bit less shock. don't depend on test strips to test your water. Use a drop based kit. Even a cheap OTO kit is better than strips for a bromine spa!

Ozone is probably most effective in a bromine spa. The ozone actually reactives the bromine bank in the spa and helps keep the sanitizer levels constant. It works against a chlorinated spa since ozone will destry chlorine and chlorine breaks down ozone. I am not sure of the effects it will have on biguinide (baqua) but I suspect it really will have little effect excect to maybe reduce the need to use the hydrogen peroxide shock quite at often since the ozone will oxidize some of the organics and the H2O2 will not be consumed as fast. The faster oxidation of organics will probably create a higher amount of 'baquagoo' in the spa which is probably why the website recommends using the stain and scale control more often. As far as wasting your money... a properly maintained bromine or chlorine spa will cost MUCH less and be MUCH easier to care for than a biguinide spa any day! If you want to get an ozonator go with bromine. It makes it even easier!

ok, I have a few more questions to try and get a handle on this. First, how is the pool store testing? Strips or reagents? If they are using strips or DPD testing it is possible that the test is bleaching out due to high chlorine levels. If they are using FAS-DPD titration testing for chlorine then the reported results are accurate. You can check yourself by getting a cheap OTO test kit for chlorine(turns yellow) . It is not very accurate but it will not bleach out. It will only show TC but if you test when the other readings are showing no chlorine and it turns very yellow to orange or brown that means you have high chlorine levels and the other test is bleaching out. If the other test for FC is a DPD test the pool water sample can be diluted to get a reading. Next question, did you just open the pool and have you had this problem since opening. If so, what was your CYA level when you closed the pool. CYA can be biodegraded by anerobic bacteria in a closed pool. If you opened the pool and the CYA was lower than when you closed it this is probably what happened. The bacteria excrete ammonia compounds and urea. This will create a HUGE chlorine demand in the pool until they are burned off. If this is the case keep hitting it with chlorine morning, noon and night until the chlorine is holding!. It can take a LOT of chlorine and liquid chlorine is the best choice for this. Your current CYA level of 40 ppm is fine and the chlorine is NOT getting burned off by the sun. Hope this is helpful.

First question, how are you testing, strips or drop kit? What is your CYA level? If you shock at night does the chlorine hold until moring? If it does and the chlorine is disappearing during the day it sounds like you don't have enough stabilzier in the water and the chlorine is being burned off by the sun. You need about 30 to 50 ppm to keep the chlorine in the pool during the day. If you could post a full set of test numbers for FC, TC, pHk, ALK, CH and CYA done with a reagent test and NOT with test strips it would be helpful in figuring out what is going on in your pool. This would NOT cause the FC and CC to drop to 0 ppm! And the proper term is 'chlorine lock' which is what pool stores tell you you have when they don't have a clue!