waterbear

no difference between them except for the price you pay and where you buy them!

If you read the first post they say that they have an automatic chlorinator turned all the way up (inline or offline chlorinator) with three STICK (of trichlor) also in the skimmer basket. There is no mention of a SWG. Also no salt reading was ever given but a TDS of 800 ppm was! Makes it pretty clear that this pool is on trichlor and NOT a SWG!

Zeobrite (zeollite filter medium), the next great hope, or is that hoax? some facts: While it is true that zeolite has 'pores' in it that are micron sized the actual grains are bigger than sand grains for the most part. The rougher surface of the zeolite might catch a few extra particles so this should be a break even but water is NOT going to filter through it. In a pressurized ( or a non pressurized for that matter) filter water is going to take the path of least resistance, which would be AROUND the grains and not through them. If you want fine filering and water polishing with a sand filter there is a very old trick of adding a bit of DE to the skimmer (enough to increase your filter pressure about 1 psi).. You are now filtering THROUGH DE. (Sand filters work better when the sand is slightly dirty so you have'dirtied' the sand). This DE will wash out on the next backwash but it is a simple and cheap solutions. Let's look at the costs. 50 lbs of filter sand cost between $6 and $10 dollars in most places. Zeolite filter medium weighs less for the same volume so approximately 1/2 the weight is needed. A 50 l b bag of the stuff goes for beteen $30 and $60 dollars so the equivalent 100 lbs of sand would cost you beteeen $12 and $20 dollars. Now let's throw in that bag of DE powder.A 5 lb bag goes for about $7 dollars (enough to last for quite a long time with a sand filter) and you can get a 25 lb bag for about $25 dollars. At the highest prices for 200 lb sand we are now up to $65 dollars with enough DE to literally last for years. The Zeolite media will cost in the neighborhood of around $100. Now, let's get down to the nitty gritty of ammonia scavaging. This is the REAL reason to use Zeolite, right? Well Zeolite has been used in fresh water aquariums for years for this very purpose and any aquairist can tell you it's ammonia scavaging properties are quickly depleted!. But it can be regenerated! You have to mix ujp a concentrated salt solution (which is why it is not used in salt water aquariums and is probably of limited benifit in pools with s SWG) and to save time in the cleaning process you might use this regeneration solution to mix up the sand bed cleaner solution so you only have to do this once instead of twice every 6 months! (remember, those tiny pores in the zeolite will clog up). You now have an acidic salt solution to dispose of. Backwash it into the lawn? Down the sewer? Into a drum to get carted away as hazardous waste? (If you are maintaining a proper chlorine level for your CYA level and shock whenever your combined chlorine is above .5 ppm then what is the big deal about ammonia scavaging anyway?) Now let's look at deep cleaning a sand filter (and yes they need it maybe yearly or so). You open the filter to expose the sand, stick a garden hose into it and turn it on. The sand will loosen and the dirt will overflow out of the filter. CAREFULLY use something like a broom handle to break up clumps and channeling (be very careful not to damage the laterals). When the water is running clear you are done, REassemble the filter and backwash again and recharge with DE and you are good to go. IF you notice a scale builup while doing this THEN it is time to break out the acid filter cleaner and clean your sand bed chemically. Personally, I have a single element, oversized cartridge filter on my pool for the best compromise between water polishing and ease of maintenance. My filter would probably take over a year (and I have a 9 month swim season and the pool is not closed for the other 3) before I got any appreciable rise in filter pressure. I do clean my cart monthly however to make the maintenance go fast. It takes me between 15-20 minutes a month to open my filter, take out the dirty cart, drop in a clean one (I have 2 and rotate them), close the filter, clean out the pump basket, and hose off the dirty cart. I soak one cart in the spring and one in the fall so each get their yearly over night soak. I admit it's a bit more work than a sand filter but the water is almost as polished as a DE filter and THOSE are a lot of work. They really should be broken down to be cleaned, not backwashed or bumped but I'll save that for another thread!

Purchase a Taylor K-1517A (or K-1517C if you want the 2 oz bottle of titrant) which is the FAS-DPD test for bromine. The difference between the chlorine test and the bromine test is that the bromine test uses R-872 reagent for the titrant and the chlorine test uses R-871 and also uses R-0003 reagent. Both use exactly the same DPD powder. When testing bromine only total bromine is tested so there is only one titration necessary. The tests for pH, acid and base demand, total alkalinity, and calcium hardness are identical for both chlorine and bromine and are exactly the same in the K-2006 kit for chlorine and the K-2106 kit for bromine. The bromine kit does not include the test for cyanuric acid since this is not needed in bromine systems. Since you already have the K-2006 adding the FAS-DPD bromine test will give you everything you need to test your bromine spa.

Ditch the strips and get a drop based kit for testing. Strips just don't have the precision you need for water balancing! (I would recommend the Taylor K-2006 for accuracy and ease of use.) It is normal for the chlorine to burn off in sunlight until some cyanruic acid (stabilzier) builds up from continued dichlor use. You didn't say how many gallons your spa was so I cant tell you how high 1 teaspoon of dichlor will raise the FC level but I can tell you that one teaspoon of dichlor will raise the FC about 2 ppm in 250 gal water. The ozone is also destroying your chlorine. It is a fact of life in systems that use both chlorine and ozone. You might need to ajust your chlorine levels to accomodate for this. I would recommend that you keep your FC level at a minimum of 2 ppm in light of recent research on kill times for water borne pahtogens.. The MPS is fine (it can cause your total alkalinity and pH to drop because it is acidic and it will add sulfates to your water) but you can also shock (superchlorinate) with unstabilzied chlorine. (Dichlor is stabilized chlorine, it contains cyanuric acid to help prevent the chlorine from burning off in sunlight). The easiest to use in a spa is plain, unscented laundry bleach (It is sodium hypochlorite, same as liquid chlorine sold at pool stores, just a lower strength usually, but not always.) For regular strength (5.25%) bleach you would use 1 cup for each 250 gallons, for ultra strength (6%) you would use 3/4 cup. If you decide to use pool liquid chlorine it is usually 12.5% (sometimes it is 10% and sometimes 6%--same as ultra bleach!) so you would use about 1/4 to 3/8 cup of the 12.5% . While you are at it don't waste your money on alkalinity increaser. This particular chemcial can be found at your grocery store under the name of baking soda! BTW, enjoy the new spa! It's not rocket science and you will soon get the hang of it!

Sorry to sound harsh but there is enough bad advice in this industry from 'professionals' and manufacturers trying to sell products (some of dubious value) so that someone who really has little understanding of pool chemistry but knows a few terms (but not their meanings) should really not try to give advice about things they really don't understand.

IMHO, if you are using chlorine then the Taylor K-2006, if you are using bromine then the Taylor K-2106. Both these kits use the FAS-DPD test instead of the DPD test. It is more accurate and since it is a titration test (similar to the Total Alkalinity and Calcium Hardness tests) with a distinct color change from pink to colorless there is no problem determining the exact sanitizer level as there is with the colormetric (color matching) DPD test in the K-2005. Also, FAS-DPD test does not have the bleachout at high sanitizer levels problem that the DPD test suffers from! All other tests in the K-2006 are identical to the ones in the K-2005. The K-2106 is made for bromine so it does not include the Cyanuric Acid test, which is not needed nor used in a bromine system but contains the other water tests included in the K-2006 and K-2005. The K-2005 is an excellent test kit but the two kits that Taylor makes that used FSD-DPD are FAR superior!

Water in a pool does not accumulate calcium. The calcium has to be added either by adding calcium chloride to increase calcium hardness if it is too low, by chlorinating ith calcium hypochlorite, by having a lot of calcium in the fill water used in the pool, or by letting your water balance go out of whack so you literally dissolve some of the plaster finsish of the pool (for a plaster pool). If you are chlorinating with calcium hypochlorite there is a simple solution...use sodium hypochlorite or lithium hypochlorite instead! If you fill water is very hard (high in calcium) then draining and refilling isn't going to help much unless you fill from water coming out of a water softener. If you accidently added too much calcium hardness increaser just drain out some of the water and refill. If you let your water chemistry get so out of whack that you are dissolving calcium from the plaster then fire the pool man and get one that knows what he is doing! (Or better yet, learn to take care of the pool yourself!) More serious problem (and I am surprised your pool man didn't mention this!) is if you are using trichlor or dichlor exclusively....your CYA (cyanuric acid or stabilzier) will rise to unacceptable levels. This will cause the chlorine to become in ineffective sanitizer and allow algae outbreaks and it has been found by reseach recently done by Arch Chemical (HTH and PoolLife brands of pool products) that high levels of CYA will damage plaster pools! I have seen pools that use cartridge filters (which are not backwashed) go from 0 ppm to above 100 ppm (way too high) in one year or less and pools will sand filters in a few years time! BTW, some might blame this on TDS (total dissolved solids) but that is not the case. It is not the total amount of stuff dissolved in the water that matters but WHICH stuff is contributing to that total. For example, a pool with a lot of sodium and chloride ions, while having a high TDS, will not have any adverse effects (or pools with salt water generators would all be in trouble) but if the measured TDS is coming from sulfates from using dry acid and non chlorine shock then you run the risk of plaster damage and if it is coming from high calcium you can develop scale deposits on the pool and in the filter.

Here they are (and they are exactly the same products you get at the pool/spa supply store! For sanitation it is liquid chlorine (for those of you using bromine this is your oxidizer or shock) AKA sodium hypochlorite AKA plain, unscented laundry bleach--either regular or ultra strength. Total Alkalinity increaser aka sodium bicarbonate aka sodium hydrogen carbonate aka baking soda pH increaser aka sodium carbonate aka washing soda ( in the laundry aise) BUT this will also raise your total alkalinity so a better choice for raising pH without having an impact on total alkalinity is: Sodiium Tetraborate aka borax (the 20 mule team stuff) which is sold by some pool and spa products companies as a 'water enchancer' for a lot of money. When added to a 30-50 ppm concentration it acts as an algaestat, pH buffer, and helps reduce sanitizer demand (YES, it really works--I use it in my pool and my spa!) It is, IMHO, the best choice for raising pH without sending your other water parameters out of whack! If you water is very soft you might need calcium hardness increaser--here is a little secret. Most of it is made by Dow Chemical and repackaged! Dow sells it as Dowflake and in pellet form and it is often available in hardware stores as a road de icer! It is EXACTLY the same stuff sold for much more money in the pool and supply stores! Just calcium chloride! The Dow website had a page that listed this as the product (along with their pellet form of calcium chloride) that is recommeded for pool and spa use! You still need to get pH decreaser (dry acid AKA sodium bisulfate) from the supply store or your neighborhood, Home Depot, Walmart, Lowes, Ace Hardware, etc. and if you are using bromine you still need the sodium bromide and possibly bromine tablets if you are doing a 3-step bromine system. If you are using chlorine you might possibly need a small amount of cyanuric acid (stablizer) or you might want to initially chlorinate with dichlor (which contains stabilzier) until a small amount builds up in the water on each refill. This can help prevent the chlorine from burning off in sunlight but too much will prevent the chlorine from being an effective sanitizer! (IMHO, I would NOT let the CYA go above about 20-30 ppm.) The only other product you might need is a metal sequesterant if your fill water tests positive for metals or if your have very hard water. You DO NOT NEED algaecides, defoamers, clarifiers, enzymes, or phospahte removers if you are maintaining your water. These products can cover up problems for a while but do not cure them so if you have a regular need for them then you are not properly caring for your water. Finally there is one product that is an absolute MUST HAVE: A good drop based test kit used weekly. Strips just don't have the precision needed for making water balance adjustments (but are fine for a quick check on a daily basis to see if you need to drag out the test kit). When I say a good drop based kit I mean a kit such as the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine systems and a K-2106 for bromine systems. Many people seem to think that about $60 is too much to spend on a test kit but when you consider the thousands of dollars your spa cost it really isn't and a good kit will make your testing easy and your water care even easier. If you don't believe me just do one chlorine or bromine test with the FAS-DPD test included in the kits above and see if it isn't easier than the standard DPD tests included in most other kits (if you are testing chlorine or bromine with OTO then you have a cheapie kit!) Also you will find that you can read the results and there is no gussing what color on the comparator or test strip it really is!

white water mold can take chlorine levels as high as 30 ppm or even higher to kill (assuming a CYA level of 30-50 ppm, if it is higher your FC might need to be higher). It forms in the plumbing often times so keep your filtration system running while treating.

what are you keeping your bromine levels at? It could be white water mold...does it break up easily when you touch it? Post a complete set of test results(from a drop based kit and NOT test strips) and that might give a clue as to what is happening. (bromine, pH, TA Calcium harness). Also, are you doing a two step bromine (sodium bromide and oxidizer) or a 3 step bromine (sodium bromide, oxidizer, and tablets in floater)? Also, what are you using for your oxidizer, chlorine or MPS? Many people think that just putting bromine tablets in a floater is doing bromine properly, it isn't! Water changes on a regular basis are very important with bromine systems, especially when tablets are used, because of the depletion of the bromide reserve in the water and the stabilization effects of the methylhydantion in the tabs. This can lead to udersantized water even if bromine levels are testing properly, similar to what happens in an overstabilized chlorine pool. If you are oxiziding (shocking) every 2 weeks it is entirely possible that your bromine levels are dropping too low in that period and allowing stuff to grow in the tub or the plumbing. Changing the water more often (every 3-4 months) , adding sodium bromide on each refill to establish your bromide reserve in the water, and oxidizing weekly might help eliminate the problem. If it is white water mold then draining the tub, refilling and sanitizing with chlorine at about 20-30 ppm (remember to clean the cover, pillow, etc.) and to run the circulation system to sanitize the plumbing) then draining and refilling and going back to the bromine should pretty much take care of it.

If you are going to maintain your CYA at 60 ppm then keep your FC at 5-10 ppm for normal chlorination and shock to at least 20 ppm ppm when you need to kill algae or burn off combined chlorine. This should give you enough active free chlorine in the water for the amount of stabilzier present. If you want to run at more normal levels of 3-6 ppm and shocking to 15 ppm then get the CYA below 50 ppm.

Sounds like iron. To see if it is take an ordinary viamin C tablet and hold it on a stained area. If the stain disappears almost immediately it's iron. To get rid of the iron staining use ascorbic acid powder (vitamin C). (NOTE: if the staining is NOT iron this procedure may or MAY NOT work, if the vitamin C tablet removed the stain it WILL work) You can buy it under brand names like Natural Chemistry's Stain Free or you can search on the internet for a supplier of ascorbic acid powder (much less expensive). Here is the procedure: 1) drop your free chlorine to below 2 ppm (don't add any chlorine for a few days to a week to achieve this or use a chlorine neutailizer (sodium thiosulfate). Then lower the pH to about 7.4 if it is higher than that. 2) I estimate your pool to be between 8000 and 10000 gal if it is an 18' round with 4-5 foot depth so I would add 1 lb of ascorbic acid. Just sprinkte it into the water all around the pool. Run pump for 24-48 hours. All the staining (or most of it at any rate) should be gone. 3) add a double dose of metal sequesterant. (for your pool this would usually be between 24-32 oz.) I personally have had good luch with Proteam's Metal Magic and Jack's Magic Pink Stuff (for iron). 4) Now here is the tricky part, if you do not want the stains to reappear you have to raise your chlorine levels slowly over a period of days (and the ascorbic acid creates a huge chlorine demand so any chlorine you put in gets used up burning off the ascorbic acid.) I would use liquid chlorine and add enough each evening to raise the free chlorine 2 ppm. (for your pool that would be about a pint assuming 12.5% liquid chlorine, if you prefer to use laundry bleach you can use 1 qt of 6% ultra bleach or 1 qt and 1 cup of 5.25% regular bleach). Check your chlorine levels each morning. At first you will find that the chlornine is not holding and is gone each day but after a few days to a week the chlorine will start to hold and will rise to normal levels (usually 3-5 ppm). Once the chlorine is holding and has reached normal levels rebalance the TA and pH if needed and you can start swimming again. 5) remember to add a maintenance dose ( usually just a few ounces) of sequesteran every two weeks to every month and keep tabs on your pH and don't let it rise above 7.6 or you will create conditons for the stains to return.

Jim, I have to agree 1000% with this statement! If you look at the info I post on water chemistry, for example, much of it goes against 'standard' pool and spa advice and dogma but is based on solid chemistry. (And I find it interesting that the industry is beginning to change some of their dogma and update it as customers become more saavy and technically minded!)

Artie, Just an FYI, Leisure Time, Robarb, Rendezvous (GLB), Applied Biochemists, and Ultima pool products are all manufactured by Advantis Technoligies in GA. If you compare the Leisure Time, Robarb, and GLB/Rendezvous spa product lines you will see quite a bit of duplication of basically identical products.

The less biguanide in the water the less it will break down bacteria and the less it can react with any residual chlorine in the water, hence the less goo formation. BTW, scumbugs work GREAT! (and work with bromine and chlorine too)

A couple of points I would like to make to the three previous posters--- First to SmilinBare--Why don't we just agree to disagree and start fresh here and now. Biguanide IS a viable sanitizer but it does have more downsides than the other EPA approved ones currently available. I hope you have contunued good luck with it. One caution I will give you that I don't think has been mentioned but I was reminded of when you said you wanted your spa to last a long time. Be on the alert for discoloration or clouding of plastic parts in your tub. Biguanide destroys some of the plastic materials used in hot tubs, notably the lens covers on some spa lights. BTW, I have never implied that you might be a Baqua rep---just to set the record straight! Jim the Jim--the 'slime' is usually the end product of biguanide sanitation. Biguaide causes the cell walls of bacteria to explode and the peroxide oxidizer is not strong enough to 'burn them up' totally so this collects on the wall and in the filter as 'goo'. In addition, if there is chlorine in the fill water this will start to oxidize the biguanide and add to the goo. Artie--The Leisure Time biguanide system (Leisure Time Free) is really no different than either BaquaSpa or SoftSoak or any of the other brands of biguanide based sanitizers. The Biguanide or PMBH is your sanitizer, the peroxide is simply the oxidizer to help 'burn off' the organics that collect in the water from the sanitation process and from normal tub use. They are have the exact same compatability issues with certain spa chemicals because this is an issue with the bigainide itself. It is not really the brand that matters. it is the chemical! On the Leisure Time website it says that the Free system is only compatible with the Leisure Time Simple Spa products, which are used with all Leisure Time sanitizes. This just means that they have not included any products in this line that are incompatible with biguanide. There are no spa care products that I can think of that are incompatible either chlorine or bromine except for bigianide! (And it is not normal practice to mix different SANITIZERS together at the same time, anyway--except maybe chlorine and bromine in a bromine system)

Perhaps 'blasted' is not the right word but I refer you to the thread you started on Jan 2, 2006 entitled "Baqua?" in which you attemted to refute every statement that I made based on only the experiences with your own spa, especially the cost differences and you even admitted that you had no experience with other sanitizer systems. I can also dig up some of you other posts in some other threads if you memory needs more of a refresher.

5 ppm free chlorine is NOT high if you have a normal (30-50 ppm) level of CYA. In fact, at 30 to 50 ppm CYA you SHOULD be running your free chlorine at 3-6 ppm for proper sanitation and algae conrtrol and should be shocking to a minimum of 12 ppm! 2-3 ppm is ok if there is NO CYA in the water such as might be found in an indoor pool or a pool using an ORP controller and a peristaltic pump for dosing liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite).

My advice is that if it is working for you now use it and if and when you start having problem then explore other solutions. Chlorine would be my first choice (I would NOT use dichlor in an indoor spa but then again your spa might get enough sunlight to warrent a little bit when your first fill) if your wife is sensitive to chemicals since, IMHO, it is milder than bromine and less likely to cause an allergic reaction. In the meantime, enjoy the spa and worry about problems when they appear!

actually 5 ppm is not high at all. In fact, many state health departments allow outdoor commercial pools to be open whenever the free chlorine is below 10 ppm. The recommendations for pools was changed in, I believe, 2005 in light of recent research on kill times for water borne pathogens and now it is recommended that your free chlorine levels never drop below 2 ppm. The old 1-3 ppm was fine for an indoor pool with NO CYA (stabilizer) in the water but as soon as you introduce CYA or use a stabilized form of chlorine (trichlor or dichlor) it becomes necessary to run your free chlorine at higher levels to achieve the same level of sanitation. In fact, if your CYA levels are at around 100 ppm or higher (not uncommon in pool that use pucks and have cartridge filters) you would need to run your free chlorine at 8-15 ppm just to achieve normal sanitation and would need to shock to 25-30 ppm to destroy chloramines and kill algae! 5 ppm is fine!

Bigunide works by causing the bacteria cells to explode and that is what causes the brown goo. Bacteria can also develop an immunity to it much the same way they beocme immune to antibiotics. In a new setup the bacteria are killed very quickly. As they start to become immune they can reproduce more before they are killed, this can cause cloudy water and more goo. The purpuse of the peroxide is to burn up the orgainics from the dead bacteria but it reaches a point where it can't keep up.

SmilinBare, I would not laugh just because you were taken in by the manufacturer's hype about biguanide. It happens to too many people with too many of the products that we are sold for our spas and pools as the "next best thing to sliced bread". I remember several months back when I posted very similar information and you blasted me for 'bashing" baqua. I wonder what is changing your mind as you enter the second year of your biguanide use? Perhaps if you post your concerens a solution might be found. IMHO, biguanide is a viable EPA approved sanitizer system but it's drawbacks outweigh its advantages except in special circumstances, such as a true halogen sensitivity. It is certainly the most expensive sanitizer system out there, especially when the water starts having problems. When it works (usually for the first couple of years) it works great if used properly.

WELL SAID chem geek!!!! The problem is NOT with chlorine or bromine but with their incorrect use. It seems that the spa industry is where the pool industry was a few years ago concerning CYA. An intersting note, HTH no longer sells dichlor for spa use. They now only sell cal hypo (unstabilized chlorine) packaged for spa use!I am sure that as spa owners become as savvy to the problems of high CYA levels that pool owners have become the situation will change and perhaps more spa owners will start testing the stabilizer levels in their spas! As an aside for the initial poster in this thread, It sounds like you might have a bromine allergy or that you have too high a bromide content in your water. Bromine is a known sensitizer and is the most often misapplied santizer because people just don't understand how to do it properly. Tablets by themselves are NOT the proper way to do bromine. You also don't say what you are using for an oxidizer (chlorine or MPS). If you are not using an ozidizer and relying on only the tablets to maintain your bromine levels then you most likely have used too many tablets in too short a time! Also, you didn't say whether you added sodium bromide to the water on filling to create your bromide reserve in the water (a necessary and often overlooked step!) Also, why are you adding clarifier and scale remover weekly? If your water is properly sanitized and balanced they are both totally unneeded! (IF your fill water has extremely high calcium levels then you might need the scale remover but if your water is in balance it is, IMHO, an extra expense!) Clarifiers and defoamers only cover up problems. Your water should not be cloudy or foamy if you are maintaining it properly.

Chem geek, check out this thread http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.ph...amp;#entry19498 I essentially told him the same thing and also pointed out that there is a big difference in drinking water sanitation and pool/spa sanitation and that contact time is a major factor!