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waterbear

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Everything posted by waterbear

  1. A swg is NOT a source of copper in the water. (Where did you ever here that one?!) Copper usually comes from copper based algaecides (which are included in many trichlor tabs on the market today!!! ) , copper pipes and heat exchangers (when the pH gets too low), and fill water. Iron usually comes from your fill water. Metals will only show up in the water testing if they are in solution and have not stained out or precipitated and you have not added seqeusterant to deactivate them. IF you have a metal problem I would recommend a kit from Taylor or LaMotte to test for them and not strips.
  2. Companies have always made outrageous claims for their products as long as advertising has been around. If called to the carpet then they have to back them up but until then who's gonna stop them. Just look at all the advertising on TV. Do you really believe all of it? NO. Why should an ad for a water treatment product of dubious value that doesn't tell you much about the product at all be any different. It's just a new twist on selling snake oil. Consider copper/silver systems. For many years the companies that produced them claimed they were 'chemical free', 'chlorine free', and/or 'mineral systems'. Most countries have passed legislation about these copper/silver devices that require them to be used with an approved sanitizer, in some places at normal and not reduced sanitizer levels or to be labeled as algaecides and NOT as sanitizers (Canada for example). Calling metals 'minerals' is just marketing hype. How many of us want metals in our pool? But we don't really mind having 'minerals' in our water! Makes it sound healthy and spa like! How about if we call them copper sulfate and silver nitrate (actual ingredients listed on the box of one such system, Nature2 by Zodiac). How appealing does it sound now? I can tell you about a great product ingredient called DHMO. You NEED to have this in your spa if you want to enjoy using it! Benefits of adding it include making your spa much more relaxing and enjoyable to sit in (this has been documented time after time--people always find a spa with DHMO added to me a more enjoyable experience!), it will make any chemicals you add to the spa dissolve and achieving proper water balance is impossible with out it! When you have it in your spa and your heater is on it's molecules will carry the heat of your heater throughout the spa to make your soaking experience a warm one. It is compatible with EVERY known spa sanitizer and chemical. It is normally a liqiud but can be converted easily to solid form and the solid form can actually cool your spa down if applied during the hot summer months! It is also very effective at cleaning your spa, spa cover, deck, and even your bathing suits and other clothes! You can even clean yourself with it safely! Is this sounding like something you might want ? I have not made anything up about this 'wonder spa additive". DHMO stands for dihydrogen monoxide. That is another name for water! How many bottles of it can I sell you? (For a website that talks about the 'dangers' of DHMO click this link and for one that talks about the benefiits click this one but remember it is all 'tounge in cheek'. It is a good illutration how facts can be distorted to produce the results you want and advertisers use this all the time!
  3. Fiirst of all there is no way you can get a reading of 47 for this test. Using a view tube the accuracy is to 10 ppm! The scale on the tube is NOT linear so you can't assume that if it is slightly more than halfway it is a 7!. If it is closer to 50 than 40 call it 50 +/- 10 and be done with it! (that's how it's supposed to be done). Second, you need to let the test develop for 3-5 minutes or it will read low. Also if your water temp is above 80 degrees some of the precipitate will dissolve and read low and if it is below 70 degrees it can take longer than 3-5 minutes for the test to complete. If you read it before that it will read low. Since you are getting 50 ppm with only letting the test sit for 1 minute then I suspect that your CYA is higher than you are reporting. CYA is CYA. If it's too expensive at Leslie's get it a Walmart or Ace Hardware!
  4. If your pool is 15k then 4 lbs CYA should be raising your pool about 34 ppm! I suspect either your pool is bigger than you think or that your testing method is incorrect. To test for CYA you put the pool water in the sample bottle to the first line, fill to the second line with reagent. Shake the bottle for 30 seconds and then let it sit for 3-5 minutes. Your water sample should be between 70-80 degrees before testing. If it's warmer or colder it can give you a false low reading. After sitting give the bottle another shake and then start dispensing it into the view tube, which should be held about waist level, until the black dot is no longer visible. I like to stand outside but not in the sun, I stand in open shade when I do this test.
  5. Borate test kits are hard to find. Proteam makes a good, if not complicated titiration test but it is expensive. Proteam, Aquachek and LaMotte all have borate test strips that are not the easiest to read but they are inexpensive and fast and since the effective range of borates is 30-50 ppm they provide enough precision to get you in the right range. I purchase my Aquachek Borate test strips from www.diywatertesting.com They have fast shipping and decent prices.
  6. First of all shock is a verb, not a noun. It is something you do to a pool (raising the FC levels to burn off organics and reach breakpoint), not a product you put into it. Unstabilized chlorine is usually the best thing to shock with since it won't raise cyanuric acid levels. There are three unstabilized chlorines--Sodium hypochlorite (liquid chlorine or regular unscented laundry bleach) which comes in strengths of 5.25%, 6%, 10% and 12.5% most commonly. This is the only liquid chlorine. It will not increase your calcium hardness nor cloud your pool. In granular form their are two different unstabilized chlorines. First lithium hypochlorite. It will not increase calcium hardness or cloud your pool and is very fast dissolving but it is the MOST EXPENSIVE form of chlorine to use. It's only advantage over liquid is the convenience of being granular. Second calcium hypochlorite or cal hypo. This is most commonly what is sold in the bags of 'shock'. It can also be used for normal chlorination. It is slow dissolving, raises calcium hardness, and can cause clouding of the water. It is sold in usually 43-48% , 62-68%, and in 73%. Walmart and the other 'big boxes' only sell the weaker stuff because there was a bad warehouse fire a few years back from improperly stored cal hypo! Most of your 'premium' brands are the 63-68% stuff, and there are a few that are the 73% stuff. The higher concentrations will raise a given amount of water to a higher free chlorine level for the same amount of shock. To put it another way, the lower conentration will raise about 7500 gallons to about 10 ppm FC, the higher concentrations will raise 10000 gallons to 10 ppm FC and the highest stuff will bump up that 10000 gallons another 1-2 ppm. This is why the walmart stuff is cheaper than the 'premium brand' stuff. BTW, walmart sells Aquachem, which is a Chemtura company brand. Omni is also a Chemtura company brand along with Bioguard, Hydrotech, Sun, and Pooltime (sold at Home Depot)! So the walmart stuff is made by the same company that makes Omni, it's just weaker! Dichlor (one of the two stabilized chlorines) is also sometimes sold as shock (it is very fast dissolving so it's sometime recommended for vinyl pools for this reason) but I would not recommend using it for shock. For every 1ppm of free chlorine it adds it also adds .9 ppm of cyanuric acid (stabilizer). Using dichlor for shocking raises stabilizer levels very quickly and can lead to an overstabilized pool. Hope this info is useful.
  7. My salt levels are good. I have never been able to get the bromine level up in the year I have owned it. I would contact Pioner H2O Technologies since they are the manufacturer of the Genesis unit. I would guess the unit is defective if you know for sure that your chemical levels are good.
  8. If I used Chlorine as a sanitizer in my spa, and had a CYA of 30ppm and a FC level of 4, then would it all burn off in the sunlight by the end of the day or do you think I'd have some left? What is the burn rate you would estimate? No way to really estimate. Depends on too many factors such as amount of sunlight it gets, number of bathers, etc. And what is the FC level I would want to maintain? With 30 PPM CYA I would keep the tub at about 6 ppm or slightly higher. Don't let it go below 4 ppm. You would probably have to add chlorine to it daily to maintain the FC level. Is your spa heated all the time or only when you use it? that would also make a difference.
  9. I am having a very difficult time proving my bromine generator is working and knowing my hot tub is safe. I have been using AquaChek Red with the following setup: - Arctic Spa 1400 litres - GENESIS AUTOMATIC BROMINE GENERATOR (salt water system) I have adjusted all the levels as per Arctic Spa's instructions but there is no Bromine reading on my AquaChek Red test strips. I am told by my dealer that this is normal and I will just have to trust them that the Bromide is there. For the safety of my family measurements are required to prove the sanitizer is operating. Is this a true statement by my dealer? A few points you might want to explore. Aquachek makes a titrator strip to test your sodium bromide levels (very similar to their salt test strips). You might want to get some to make sure you have the correct amount of sodium bromide in your water. If it is not in the right range your unit will not function. Also, how many hours a day are you running it? Pioner H2O Technologies, the manufacturer, recommend a minimum of 4 hours a day and possbily more. It can take a few days of time for the bromine to reach levels that can be tested. Is the tub exposed to sunlight? Bromine will 'burn off' in sunlight in a a matter of about half an hour. There is really no way the genterator can keep up with this and you will be showing no bromine in the tub. If you do not have a cover on the tub you should get one if it gets any sunlight. Bromine cannot be stabilized against UV light like chlorine can. If you are not testing a residual bromine level of at least 4 ppm (6 ppm is better) then the water is NOT sanitized! Strips would certainly be able to show this level but I would suggest getting a better test kit that uses liquid reagents. They Taylor K-2106 would be my first choice but even a 'cheapie 2 way tester' for chorine/bromine and pH that uses OTO reagent (turns yellow in the presence of chlorine or bromine) is better than the strips, IMHO. IF there is any bromine (actually hypobromous acid) the test reagent WILL turn yellow! If it does not you have no bromine in the tub! I can not confirm if my system is functioning correctly or if the AquaChek Red does not detect the bromine. Regardless I am very concerned about my sanitizer levels and need guidance. Any input would be appreciated. If you are not testing any bromine in the tub then either the unit is not functioning properly, your water chemistry is off (check your sodium bromide levels and your pH!), or your bromine is being destroyed by UV light from the sun. You can try 'shocking' the tub with MPS (non chlorine shock) and wait about 30 minutes and test for bromine. If you have non at that point then there is no sodium bromide in the water. If you don't have the proper level you can't produce bormine! If you test bromine after shocking then either the unit is not functioning properly or your bromine is being burned off by the sun. If your spa is not covered and gets sun try turning the fitration system on at sundown and let it generate all night. Test in the morning. If you test bromine then you know it's working but the bromine is being destroyed. How high is your calcium. High calcium levels can cause scale to deposit on the cell and stop bromine production, even with 'self cleaning' cells such as the Genesis has. Too low a sodium bromide level and the cell won't generate, too high a sodium bromide level and the cell won't generate. You have to have this in the correct range (around 2500 ppm) for it to work properly. I believe this particular unit stops produces at a lever above 3500 ppm. I don't know the low salt cut off point.
  10. I would adjust the floater to maintain your bromine level between shocking. The tabs will add both bromide and chlorine to the water. When you shock you want to add enough chlorine or non chlorine oxidizer to raise the bromine levels above 10 ppm but you don't have to go overboard! about 2/3 to 3/4 up of ultra bleach should do it for each 500 gallons or 3/4 to 1 cup of regular (5.25%) bleach. Remember it's a hot tub, not rocket science! I assume you are doing dilutions to test high sanitizer levels. Remember that you lose accuracy with the dilutions so you are only getting an approximate sanitizer level. DPD is not that easy to read to begin with and most men have trouble telling the shades of red apart. Women are better at it for some reason. This is one of the reasons I like the FAS-DPD test much better.
  11. This would indicate to me that you either haven not oxidized all the ascorbic acid yet or you have some algae growing in the water. I suspect the first. Why do you 'suspect your CYA is 40-60 ppm'? Ifyou have not tested it then do so with your kit. If your CYA is below 30 ppm this could explain the chlorine loss. With your salt water generator it should be between 60-80 ppm. I personally like it closer to 80 than 60.
  12. Yes, it is a good idea. Some state health departments have banned the use of dichlor in commercial spas because it causes CYA levels to rise very fast.
  13. Correct, bromine cannot be stabilized against UV light like chlorine can. A couple of things to consider. If you are going to use bromine with a floater or bromine feeder (3 step bromine system) then you add the sodium bromide on filling the tub, shock with bleach (about 2/3 cup per 500 gallons for the 6%) and put in your floater or adjust your brominator. You want to adjust the floater or brominator to maintain a bromine reading of around 6 ppm. The bromine tabs add both bromine and chlorine to the spa at the same time. Shock weekly with the bleach and don't enter the tub until the bromine level is below 10 ppm. Drain and refill every 3-4 months and start over with the sodium bromide. (I personally like the HTH BromStart, it comes in packets premeasured for each 250 gallons of water.) If the spa is getting a lot of sun and is not covered you might want to consider switching to chlorine. If the spa gets a lot of sun you would want to maintain a CYA level of about 20 ppm (30 PPM MAX!) and maintain a FC reading in the tub of 4-6 ppm. Shock with chlorine when combined chlorine is over .5 ppm to a shock level of 15 ppm FC and let the level drop to below 10 ppm before entering tub. Do not use dichlor since it will cause your CYA levels to rise rapidly and make your chlorine less effective as a sanitizer and could allow pseudomonas to grow in the water. This is the bacteria that causes 'hot tub itch'.
  14. If you are going to use chlorine I would recommend a Taylor K-2006. If you are going to use bromine a Taylor K-2106. Both use the FAS-DPD titration test for sanitizer which is much easier to read and more accurate than the DPD tests commonly used! These kits will also include all the other necessary tests for normal spa water balancing. DPD tests require color matching very similar shades of red and many people (mostly men) have a great difficulty with this. (Women for some reason do much better with this test). The FAS-DPD test is a drop count test with a distinct color change from red to colorless and is also much more accurate and will not bleach out at high sanitizer levels like the DPD test.
  15. The titrant is different so it can test bromine levels. The DPD powder is the same.
  16. The bromine liquid is just sodium bromide. This is not your sanitizer. When you add an oxidizer (chlorine, MPS, or ozone) it converts the sodium bromide into hypobromous acid, your santizer that is measurable with your strips or a test kit. If your bromine is low then add oxidizer to bring it up and shock about once a week. If you are not using bromine tabs in a floater then you do have to add the sodium bromide weekly because it eventually gets converted into bromates which won't turn back into bromine sanitizer. You can enter the tub as long as your bromine levels are below 10 ppm but it's best to keep them between 6-8 ppm. Also, bromine sanitizer will 'burn off' in about 30 minutes or so when exposed to direct sunlight and there will be none left in the water.
  17. Only problems with the troubleshooter kit is that it does not test calcium hardness which might or might not be important in your setup (a lot depends on your fill water) and that it uses the DPD test for chlorine which can bleach out at high sanitizer levels and is difficult to read accurately. It also does not include a CYA test which is important if you are using dichlor since high CYA levels will make the chlorine ineffective at sanitizing. With bromine it is not a needed test.
  18. If I am not mistaken Jim sells ionizer units that put copper into the water. Hardly a chemical free or 'green" system! These systems still need a residual sanitizer in the water (usually chlorine) for proper sanitation because the kill times for metal ions are very slow and in a spa you need fast kill times since water borne pathogens will multiply quickly at the elevated temperatures which spas operate.
  19. Test strips are fine for a quick daily check but do not have the precision needed for water balancing (and you WILL need to balance your water from time to time). Taylor test kits are distributed in Canada by Lowry and Associates in Ontario (905-836-0505).
  20. To make sure the stains don't return add a metal squesterant like Proteam Metal Magic or Jack's Magic to your pool on a regular bais ( weekly to monthly, you have to experiement and see how long you can go without the stains returning). Also keep watch on your pH. High pH will contribute to the stains returning. If you start to see the stains coming back often all you need to do is drop the pH to about 7.0 and add a treatment dose of sequesterant and they will disappear if you catch it just as they are starting to reappear.
  21. you have .5 ppm combined chlorine. This is what you are smelling. Shock with chlorine with the cover off and cirulaton running for about 4 hours. You need to raise your FC level about 10-12 ppm over what it is now to reach breakpoint.
  22. IMHO, the only way to get accurate readings is to get an FAS-DPD test for chlorine such as in the Taylor K-2006 kit or the standalone FAS-DPD test kit from Taylor (if you already have the K-2005), model # K-1515
  23. From what I know there has been some research in biofilm dispersion technology in dealing with wastewater and lakes and ponds and it has shown promise but I can find no information on the use of this technology in hot tubs. My concern is whether the product has been approved by the EPA and from what I have seen on their website it has not. From reading their website it looks like it's just another enzyme type of product and if that IS the case then it is not a primary sanitizer. They really don't provide very much information. Their website does say that the product should be used in conjunction with chlorine, bromine, ozone or UV which also leads me to believe it is simply an enzyme type of product. It also appears that this product is primarily available in the UK and that it is essentially the same as AquaFinesse, which includes chlorine tablets as part of the system.
  24. A few clarifications, I hope you don't mind! I prefer Chlorine but it is a person preference, I do also I have tryed them both. Seems with Bromine my water always smelled of chlorine because the feeder was always adding Bromine continualy and the active ingediant is chorine. The smell is actually bromine which has a stronger smell than chlorine. The active ingredients in a bromine tab are a bromide compound and a chlorine compound (or as an alternative, MPS which is a non chlorine oxidizer.) The chlorine oxidizes the bromide to hypobromous acid, the active bromine sanitizer, and is destroyed in the process. Chlorine does not stay around ina bromine system if there is a 'bromide reserve' in the water created by adding sodium bromide on filling the tub. If you don't do this it is possible for chlorine to exist until enough tablets dissolve to create the bromide reserve. This can take several weeks and until it happens it is possible for chlorine to be in the water. But with chlorine (dichlor) you add it after your soak and be the time you use the tub again the level is so low that there is no smell. For proper sanitation at the elevated temps in tubs the FC should be maintained at 4-6 ppm when you are in the tub. Nasties like pseudomonas grow quickly at hot tub temps! A properly maintained chlorine system will not smell of chlorine. If there is combined chlorine in the water then you will smell a strong chlorine smell and the tub needs to be shocked with chlorine. Also, Dichlor adds .9 ppm cyanuric acid (stabilizer) for every 1 ppm FC it adds. This can quickly lead to overstabilzed water and the chlorine will become ineffective as a sanitizer. For this reason some State health departments have outlawed the use of dichlor in commercial hot tubs and now only allow unstabilized chlorine. HTH has stopped selling dichlor for hot tub use and now only offers cal hypo (one of the unstabilized chlorines) for their chlorine regieme. Bromine also had a tendency to drive down my PH and TA which required constant, or at least more frequent adjustments up. Dichlor also drives down my PH and TA but at a much slower rate. Using MPS (non chlorine shock) also drives down pH and TA. Everyones results will vary though so try them both and see which works best for you. They both work fine with an Ozonator but never rely on the unproven sanitation effects of an ozonator. Use it as a supplement to a good sanitation routine. I agree completely, Ozone is a supplimentary sanitizer and requires a proper bromine or chlorine residual in the water.
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