waterbear

For every 1 ppm FC introduced by trichlor it will also introduce .6 ppm of CYA. For every 1 ppm FC introduce by dichlor it will introduce .9 ppm CYA. Since the original poster has a SWG and does not use trichlor but was comparing the price of Dichlor vs CYA to get CYA levels to the proper range for a SWG your answer really is not relevant.

The "new norms" are accepted. You obviously don't know a lot about pool chemistry. Where did you ever get that 3 ppm is the abosulte maximum the human skin can tolerate without getting irritated? You obviously also don't know what a CPO handbook is either. Perhaps you should learn a bit before you post. (And FYI, I am not just a pool owner. I am in the industry.)

Actually, a lot of the newest studies on CT kill times for pathgens indicate that 2 ppm FC is the lowest that should be used with any copper/silver system. In Australia they are not permitted to advertise them as being low chlorine systems and in Canada they are only registered as algaecides, not sanitizers. Nature 2 is a passive erosion type system that uses copper sulfate and silver nitrate to supply the copper and silver to the water.

Check out a new edition of the CPO handbook for accepted levels. You'll find the info there. Many state health departments are now setting 10 ppm as the level that bathers can enter a commercial pool and it's been generally accepted in chlorine sanitized spas for a while. Also, new studies in CT times have shown that 1 ppm FC, even in an unstabilized pool is not high enough to kill many pathgens and generally accepted minimum levels are now 2 ppm and higher. Perhaps you might want to start reading some of the newer info that has been published.

Ozine is NOT a stand along sanitizer since there is no reisudal. Also realize that ozone ia a toxic gas. Ozone works differently with chlorine and bromine. In a chlorine system ozone can reduce sanitizer demand because it does kill some pathogens but it also destroys chlorine so chlorine usage might be higher to maintain the same residual sanitizer level. In a bromine system ozone will oxidize the "bromide reserve" that is put in the water on each fill (sodium bromide) into active bromine sanitizer, hypobromous acid. This can help maintain more constant bromine levels but it also causes the oxidation of hypobromous acid into bromates. Bromates are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water but you are not drinking the hot tub water. Keep that in mind. Ozone is usually considered a worthwhile addition but it is by no means necessary.

There are only 3 EPA approved sanitizers--chlorine, bromine and biguanide. Bormine is a known senstizer (most likely to cause a true allergic reaction) but is a good choice for indoor tubs and ones that are not subject to full sunlight. Chlorine has less of an odor than bromine and is my first choice for outdoor tubs. IF ventialtion is poor indoors the air quaitly can degrade with chlorine. It is simpler to use than bromine but does require daily water checks to make sure the chlorine levels are maintained. Biguanide is an antimicrobial that is used with a hydrogen peroxide oxidizer. It is more expensive than either chlorine or bromine, will require much more frequent filter cleaning and replacement, and has a tendency to develop white water mold and pink slime since bacteria deveop an immunity to it after continued use. ALL other systems are NOT primary sanitizers metals (or 'minerals' as the marketing hype likes to call them. "Minerals" sound very spa like and healthy but the truth is they put metals into the water for sanitation. Metal ions have very slow kill times and need to be used with a residual santizer like chlorine. If you want to soak in copper sulfate and silver nitrate be my guest! These are the actual ingredients on the box of a Nature2 cartridge, a popular 'mineral' sanitizer!), ozone, UV light are all secondary sanitizers that need to be used in conjucntion with a primary sanitizer, usually chlorine or bromine. Be aware that not all secondary santizers are compatible with bromine or biguanide. Chlorine is, IMH0, the safest sanitizer to use with bromine running second both in terms of chemical exposure and water sanitation when used properly. Biguanide works but I feel there are just too many problems associated with its use so unless you have a TRUE chemical sensitivity to both chlorine and bromine I would avoid it. Much of the bad press that chlorine has recieved concerning disinfection byproducts such as chloroform and other TMHs are more of a concern in drinking water treatment and, to some extent, indoor pool where they can concentrate in the air than in outdoor pool or spa use. Also, Ozone can create bromates and chlorates in the wate r which are other non desirable disinfection byproducts, once again more of a concern in drinking water.

I have found the MetalFree (EDTA) to be not as effective as HEDP based sequesterants like Proteam Metal Magic or Jack's Magic Pink Stuff at keeping the staining away. Use a double dose of the sequesterant initially and be sure to add a maintenance dose (or in your case more since you are always adding water with iron in it) on a weekly basis and keep your pH at the low end of the scale (about 7.2). Is your pool fiberglass or plaster? Often, if the stains start to come back you can just drop your pH to about 7.0 and add another dose of seqeusterant and they will go away if you catch them just as they start. I ususally only have to do the acrobic acid once a year and then by keeping sequestant in the wate I am able to keep my white fiberglass pool stain free. The staining will usually start to deposit if you let your pH climb too high and if you have a high santizer level. Also, when you raise your FC after the ascorbic acid use liquid chlorine or bleach and pour it into your skimmer. This way you might deposit iron on the filter instead of in your pool. You will have to acid wash the cartridge to remove the iron. To do so first soak the cart overnight in a solution of 1 cup of automatic laundry detergent to each 5 gallons of water to remove organics (or they will harden into a cement like mess and ruin the cart), hose it off well, then soak it in a solution of one part muriatic acid to about 20 parts water for about 30 minutes or so. Hose it off again. Stain removeal is not a one shot deal but something you have to keep on top of if your water contains metals. As an alternative you might want to consider a water softener and use the softened water to fill. The ion exchange resin is effective at removing iron from the water. If your iron is very high you might want to consider a 'green sand' or other special iron removing ion exchange resin for your fill water.

Sorry, no pics. They did it in the evening as the sun was going down and all the pics I took came out too dark to see anything. They had straps of some sort attached to both the pool and the tub. Don't remember how they were attached since I could not get that close while they were working. For safety reasons I had to stand across the street while they were lifting them. It did not take very long at all to do once the straps were attached. They did the pool first and by the time they got to the tub it was almost dark. Like I said, once they got the tub in the back they used a bobcat to move it into position.

Both my fiberglass pool and my acrylic hot tub were lifted over my house to the back when they were installed. It was pretty cool to watch! The PB is the one who did it so I know he was insured! They did the final placement of the tub with a backhoe.

I would not suggest that because you don't know what is in the tablets as binders, buffers, etc. Pure ascorbic acid powder can be had for about $10/lb from many internet suppliers. You don't even need the food grade.

The kit you asked about is a rebranded Taylor K-2005. It is ok but you would be better off with this kit http://www.lesliespool.com/shopping/produc...ProductID=13142 which is a rebranded Taylor k-2006 and uses the FAS-DPD test for chlorine instead of the DPD test and a color comparator that is in the kit you asked about. FAS-DPD testing is a drop counting test with a distinct change from pink to colorless and is accurate to as much as .2 ppm. It will test chlorine levels well in excess of 25 ppm without bleaching out like the DPD test can and since you don't have to try and match colors your test results are going to be much more precise!

I would get a Taylor K-2006 test kit. It will test all the parameters you need for normal maintinance except salt. For salt the Aquachek salt testers are extremely accurate and easy to use. They do take about 5 minutes to develop fully, however.

Does CYA eventually drop on it's own? Is this something that I may have to bring back up again in a few weeks with stabilizer? I ask because I bought 2 jugs of it and I'm going to return them if I don't need them. CYA does not decrease on its own but is lost through backwashing and splashout (but NOT by evaporaton.) I would keep it around in case you need it. It won't go bad.

Waterbear, Thank you so much for your advice. I really appreciate it. I have seen many of your posts at other boards and I respect your opinion. I have a couple more questions. Our cartridges are looking pretty gross. I soaked one overnight last night and it is still pretty filthy. I used two cups of powered dishwasher detergent, but I think that I should have added more because we have a tall cartridge and it required a huge container (100+ quart cooler) for soaking. I can tell it did clean some, because the soaking liquid was really dirty this morning. But will the cartridges still work if they are stained? use 1 cup per 5 gallons of water. If you have a really tall cart (I have one that is really tall myself--over 31"!) you might want to find a container such as one of those plastic storage bins that you can lie the filter on it's side in. It will take a LOT less water and detergetnt. Just make sure it's deep enough to have the filter submerged. I found one that fits my filter at Target (Rubbermaid) and it takes a LOT less water to submerge the filter. Do we need to use a vacuum at all or is our Polaris enough? A vacuum will be faster to get the stuff up so you can clean the filter. The advantage of the Polaris is the stuff will collect in it's bag and won't dirty the filter as fast but it will be a lot slower. Also, my husband turned on the jets to the spa, which spills over into the pool. It was the first time he had done that in a while and all of this crud came out into the spa. It looks better this morning, but it is still worse than the rest of the pool. Any suggestions to get the spa up to the same level as the pool? Should we continue to run the jets regularly during the cleaning process or do you think that we have blown out all of the crud by running them for a few minutes? I would turn off the jets for now and either use a spa want to get the stuff out of your spa or vacuum it out. When the pool is clear and the filter clean turn on the spa and see if anything else goes into it. If it does vacuum or use a spa wand to get it out. Thanks for your help.

Bah, pool stores are unreliable. Well, if pool stores are unreliable then you might want to forget about all the advice I've given you on getting your own pool straightened out! (and it WAS quite a mess!) I work in one! Get your own test kit. You can get cheap Clorox at Costco, BJs (my favorite) or Sams. Wal-mart bleach works well too. And they're all 6%. Also, Clorox will store much longer than pool chlorine. Pool Chlorine will be water in 2 months, at least that's what my local pool store says and why they don't carry it. They recommend Clorox. 12.5% liquid clorine can be the best deal if you use it quickly (within a few weeks). It will lose strenth on standing but it won't be 'water in 2 months'. It will be around 8%. Many pool stores don't want to deal with liquid chlorine because it involves having huge storage tanks on the premises that have to be refilled weekly and it involved filling the carboys from the tanks, which is NOT a fun job. Chlorine strength has to be monitored and there is paperwork and logs from the EPA that have to be maintained. Also, you don't buy shock. Shock is something you do. Liquid chlorine is often called liquid shock. You are right that shock is a verb, not a noun but there is a place for using cal hypo or even lithium hypochlorinte to shock instead of liquid. Depends on the circumstances.

I finally bought a test kit (thank you Jenlind!) that tests CYA. Here are my readings: Total Hardness: 75 Sounds like you are using test strips since the test is for total hardness. You want to test for calcium hardness. Get a good drop based kit like the Taylor K-2006. If your pool is vinyl then calcium hardness is not that important. If it's plaster this reading is too low. Total hardness is your calcium and magnesium hardness so it really isn't giving you any useful information. Don't worry about this until you get your clorine demand under control. Total Chlorine: 0 Free Chlorine: 1 It is impossible for your total chlorine to be less than your free chlorine. Total chlorine is the sum of free chlorine and combined chorine. Once again it looks like you are using test strips. They are just not accurate! If this is a drop based kit then you did the test wrong. PH: 7.3 This is within range. I would leave it for now. Alkalinity: 140 Don't worry about this until you get your chlorine demand under control CYA: 75 Now how in the world do I get my Total Chlorine up? It's your FC that you want to raise. Your Total chlorine should be the same as your FC. This would mean that you have no combined chlorine in the water which is what you want. I bought 2 big jugs of Ultra Bleach from Wally World. Is my CYA ok? My water looks very clear, so that's really not an issue....YET. Your CYA is a bit high but it is livable if you keep your FC between 6-10 ppm for normal sanitation and shock to 20 ppm when you need to shock (if your combined clorine is above .5 ppm) or if you are killing algae. This is why a GOOD test kit like the taylor k-2006 is so important. If you are going to run a high CYA pool you need this kit (or another kit that has the FAS-DPD titration test for chlorne) since it will allow you to test higher chlorine levels accurately. DPD chlorine tests (turns red and uses a color comparator) cannot reliably test over 10 ppm and OTO chlorine tests (turns yellow and uses a color comparator) will only test total chlorine. Test strips are useless for water balancing.

Pool stores have a blue chemical that is good at binding to small particles to help your filter. I can't recall the name. Don't overdose on it, and give it 24 hours. Your pool will clear. You might pull your filter and spray it down too. It could be full. Your CYA is good for a SWG, a bit high for chlorine. I'd say keep your FC at 10-12 for now, maybe even go to 20, and keep it there until it does not drop overnight. You'll need about 4 gallons of bleach 6% to get to 20ppm (or so). The problem could be that with your CYA so high, algae started up last night and that's why you saw a drop. If you do want to get your CYA down, drain your pool about 20% and refill, will cut your CYA by 20%, as well as your TA and CH. I don't know what "sock in the skimmer" is, but it cannot be good with your current CYA levels. Stick with bleach. Dichlor or Trichlor will just make things worse for you. I know you are trying to help but you need to learn a bit more and get your own pool under control before trying to give advice. A CYA level is certainly managble in a manually chlorinated pool by keeping the FC level a bit higher. In fact, if the pool get a lot of sun it might even be desirable. With a CYA of 70 and a gunite pool then keeping the FC at 20 ppm will be an effective shock level an d maintaining the FC between 6-10 ppm for normal sanitation would be fine. The TA and CH do NOT need to be lowered and, depending on the fill water, a drain and refill might actually raise them. Skimmer socks are a stocking that fit over the skimmer basket and act as a prefilter. They are an excellent 'gadget' that are inexepnsive and really work. They have NOTHING to do with chemical levels. Please learn a bit more before posting. I know you are trying to help but I also know that you are a newbie since I have been helping you get your own pool under control.

I have a 17,000 gallon, Gunite black plaster pool, cartridge filter. It came with a house we purchased about 2 years ago. Initially, we had a pool service, and everything was fine. My husband got cheap, canceled the service, but didn't bother to learn anything about pool chemistry. Passive aggressiveness paid off, finally, and I decided to take care of our swamp. I have the Taylor K2006 kit on order, so at this point, I don't have exact numbers. Our pool has gone from green and murky to blue but cloudy. Yesterday, our pH was 7.1 and TA 90. Pool store recommended 4 pounds of Soda Ash. I ultimately added two boxes of Borax, gradually, testing as I went along, instead. Chlorine had stabilized overnight two nights ago, but was down this morning so we added bleach to get it back up over 5. (It was 2-3 and I added 4 ppm to get it between 5 and 10.) Here are our numbers as of this morning: FC: 5+ (best guess is 6-7) If you dilute a small amount of pool water with an equal amount of distilled water your can then test your chlorine (only the chlorine) and multiply the results by 2 to get an approximation of how high your chlorine is. A shot glass is good for measuring. If you need to go higher you can use 1 part pool water and 2 parts distilled and multiply by 3 or 1 part pool water and 3 parts distilled and multiply by 4 or 1 part pool water and 4 parts distilled and multiply by 5. You will lose accuracy with each dilution but it will give you a ballpark until the Taylor kit arrives pH: 7.5 TA: 100 CYA: 70 CH: 350 (tested yesterday) The rest of your numbers look good. We've been running the pump 24-7, have a sock in the skimmer, been brushing the pool and running the polaris. We switched out the filter yesterday, which was green and filthy and put in one we had cleaned. We have not vacuumed because as of yesterday, we didn't own one. Now we do, but don't know how to "vacuum to waste," which I'm anticipating as one of the things we need to do. You can't vacuum to waste with a cartridge filter. You just have to keep cleaning the cart. Also, you should know that my husband didn't pay enough attention to me, bought and put in scented bleach at one point. Doh! I'm sure this isn't helping the cloudiness. Any advice to help us get our pool to crystal clear would be appreciated. Thanks! With your CYA at 70 ppm keep your FC at about 20 ppm until the FC is holding overnight. Your pool might be cloudy at that point. It's just dead algae that your filter will eventually remove. It can take a week. I am not a big fan of clarifiers. They can make the cloudiness worse if you overdose on them. If you are going to use one with a cartrdige filter get a 'natural' one based on chitosan and not a polymeric one. BTW, skimmer socks are the BEST thing every. I keep one in my pool all the time. They really help keep a lot of stuff out of the filter. I am always amazed at how much junk they collect!

You need ascorbic acid powder (pure vitamin C powder). You can buy it under brand names in the pool supply like Natural Chemistry's Stain Free or you can search on the internet for a supplier of ascorbic acid powder (much less expensive).(You can also use oxalic acid powder, which is the ingredient in many pool stain removers but it is toxic compared to ascorbic acid). Here is the procedure: 1) drop your free chlorine to below 2 ppm (don't add any chlorine for a few days to a week to achieve this or use a chlorine neutailizer (sodium thiosulfate). Then lower the pH to about 7.4 if it is higher than that. 2) Add 1/2-1 lb of ascorbic acid per 10000 gallons of water, don't overdose or you will create a bad chlorine demand. I would start with the lower dose and if the staining doesn't all go away then I would add more after about 25 hours. Just sprinke it into the water all around the pool, concentrating on the worse areaes. Run pump for the next 24-48 hours. All the staining (or most of it at any rate) should be gone. 3) After about 1 hours add a double dose of metal sequesterant. (you want the treatment dosage, not the maintenance dosage) I personally have had good luck with Proteam's Metal Magic and Jack's Magic Pink Stuff (for iron). Continue to filter. The pool might get cloudy, don't worry, it will clear. Next add a dose of Polyquat 60 algaecide (Make sure it's polyquat and not linear quats or copper! Look for the ingredient poly [oxyethylene (dimethyliminio) ethylene (dimethyliminio) ethylene dichloride] on the label. If it doesn't say that it's not polyquat. This will help prevent an algae bloom while your chlorine is low (and it will be for a week or two!) 4) Now here is the tricky part, if you do not want the stains to reappear you have to raise your chlorine levels slowly over a period of days (and the ascorbic acid creates a huge chlorine demand so any chlorine you put in gets used up burning off the ascorbic acid.) I would use liquid chlorine and add enough each evening to raise the free chlorine 2 ppm. Pour it into the skimmer so it can cause the metals in solution to stain your filter instead of the pool again. Check your chlorine levels each morning. At first you will find that the chlornine is not holding and is gone each day but after a few days to a week the chlorine will start to hold and will rise to normal levels (usually 3-5 ppm). Once the chlorine is holding and has reached normal levels rebalance the TA and pH if needed and you can start swimming again. 5) remember to add a maintenance dose ( usually just a few ounces) of sequesterant every two weeks to every month and keep tabs on your pH and don't let it rise above 7.6 or you will create conditons for the stains to return. If the stains start to return and you catch them fast you can often make them disappear if you drop the pH to about 7.0 and add another treatment dose of sequesterant

Slow down, take a breath and realize it's a pool, not rocket science. For your CYA at 80 ppm keep your FC between 3-5 ppm and see how it goes. If you start to get algae then bump it up a bit. You will soon find what works for your pool. Most of the SWG pools that I have seen do just fine in the 3-5 ppm FC range!

Thanks Waterbear.. So, are you saying that my ozone system is what's 'eating up' my NaBr concentration? What are the side effects of these bromates? Do they contribute to the bromine smell? Bromates are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water but I don't know of any effects in spa water. Ozone will reactivate the sodium bromide to bromine sanitizer but it will also oxidize it to bromates. In a chlorine system ozone depletes chlorine by forming chlorates. The decrease in sodium bromide in your water can come from many sources. Splash out and topping off the water after is the most common one and is probably the reason your sodium bromide levels are dropping. Remeber that there is only a small quantity of water in your tub and if you lose a gallon each time you use the spa from splashout it and replace it with fresh water it adds up in a very short time!

I have read about bromates several times but I did not realize that it is the bromates that are the driving reason for refilling the spa. Aside from time, how do you know when you need to refill your bromine spa? Does this mean you do not have to refill a chlorine based spa since there will not be bromates and CCs can be burned off? Bromates are not the main reason to refill a spa every three to four months. The water just concentrates so much stuff because of evaporaton within that time that it's better to start over. In a chlorine spa with ozone the ozone will destroy the chlorine and form chlorates.

Two things about the pH. First, do NOT try to test pH when bromiine levels are high. High sanitizer levels will interfere with the pH reagent chemically and cause it to read high when it is not. Second, rising pH is a problem with both bromine generators and salt water chlorine generators. The reason is the same for both. In addition to producing sanitizer the unit is alos producing hydrogen gas which is aerating your water (along with your bubblers and jets) If you have a high TA this will cause a lot of carbon dioxide to gas out of your water and cause your pH to rise. Your spa is carbonated. That is what TA is...carbonates, bicarbonates, and carbonic acid in the water. This carbonation will help keep the pH from dropping when using acidic santizers like bromine tabs and MPS shock (all the non clorine shocks that are used in spas are MPS--postassium monopersulfate). Generated bromine or chlorine is NOT acidic so you do not need a high total alkalinity to offset the pH drop from the sanitizer. Carbonic acid is just carbon dioxide dissolved in the water, think seltzer. If you aearate the water (think shaking up a bottle of seltzer to make it go flat) you drive out the carbon dioxide and the pH rises since you have reduced the amount of carbonic acid in the water. By keeping your TA on the low end (around 80-90 ppm) and keeping your pH at 7.6 or slightly higher you can mimimize this effect. Aslo by introducing 30-50 ppm borates into the water (with a product such as Proteam's Gentle Spa) you introduce a secondary boric acid/borate buffer system that will help stabilize the pH. Also realize that bromine cannot be stabilized aganst loss from UV light like chlorine can so if you spa is getting any sun exposure the bromine will be burnt off in a very short time and you will have to run the generator output at a very high level which will lead to a faster pH rise. Try to keep the spa covered unless it is actually in use. This will help. IF my memory serves me correctly Boost is a 'one step' bromine system that contains sodium bromide and dichlor ( a form of chlorine) to oxidize the sodium bromide into hypobromous acid, your active bromine sanitizer. With the Genesis bromine generators I believe that you are only supposed to add plain sodium bromide to the water to a level of around 2500 ppm and only shock with MPS if needed. Sodium bromide can get consumed in a bromine system by being oxidized to bromates. Once this happens it is essentially 'dead' as far as generating bromine. This is also why conventional bromine systems do need to be drained and refilled every so often. If you have ozone you are speeding up how fast the bromates are forming in your water.

Free chlorine test is not valid for bromine. You have no chlorine in the water. It's all converted into hypobromous acid when it reacts with the sodium bromide. You are only interested in total bromine. Free bromine is not an important measurement. Bromine levels will be 2 times the chlorine reading anyway so your 1.8 chlorine reading x 2 is 3.6 and since you are using strips this is within the accuracy of them and is essentiall the same as your 3 reading for bromine!