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Everything posted by waterbear

  1. Laundry bleach from such places as Walmart or grocery stores is also fine to use as long as it's 5%, 6.25% or 8.25% sodium hypochlorite and it is not scented or thickened. I usually buy bleach at Walmart or my local grocery. In fact, Lowes, Home Depot and my local grocery all stock 10% pool chlorine in my area also.
  2. Since it's basically copper sulfate I would venture to guess no since copper sulfate is used in gardening to kill fungus on plants and as a fertilizer on certain soil types. However, I have no firsthand knowledge what is would do so proceed at your own risk.
  3. The comp;any is still active. Their products are copper or copper/silver ionizers. Some also include UV. They also produce hydrogen peroxide from the electrolysis of water, which is an oxidizer. In countries that do not allow the use of metals, UV and peroxide without the use of low levels of a fast acting primary sanitizer (such as the US) they also have units that are used with chlorine to comply with the law. My take on their systems: The problem is that metal ions have very slow kill times and are not effective against viruses, UV only sanitizes in the chamber where the water interacts with the UV light and there is no residual, and H2O2 is an oxidizer but not a primary sanitizer. Also, H2O2 cannot be used with chlorine as the two destroy each other. In fact, when chlorine levels in a pool or spa need to be lowered, hydrogen peroxide is one of the chemicals that can be used for that purpose (although sodium thiosulfate is a better choice and is the usual ingredient in chlorine reducer products for pools and spas). The OH and O radicals that they mention on their website might exists in their electrolysis chamber but they are fleeting and quickly recombine into water and the H202 produced breaks down into water and O2. O2 is a stable molecule (unlike ozone O3) and does not sanitize. Contact information: http://www.ecleareu.com/ https://www.eclearusa.com/
  4. CSI stands for calcium saturation index and this determines whether the water will deposit calcium as scale or dissolve calcium from a plaster surface and cause pitting and other problems. With an acrylic spa obviously there is no plaster to dissolve so running a negative CSI is perfectly fine. However, scale is a problem for all surfaces so you don't want to run a strongly positive CSI. The numbers I gave you will keep your water in a range that will not deposit scale since the TA and CH are both low. The only reason an acrylic spa needs calcium is to increase the hardness enough to help prevent foaming. Soft water foams more readily than hard water so we want enough hardness to prevent this but not so much that you are likely to have scale precipitate if the pH is high. Somewhere between 130 and 200 ppm is good. Some people think that you must balance CSI in any pool or spa to protect metal from corrosion but this is in error. There is NO correlation between CSI and metal corrosion. However, low pH IS the main cause of metal corrosion, the second being differential electrical current in the water, which is easily taking care of by installing a sacrificial anode and grounding properly.
  5. The rate of dissolution of the tabs is controlled by adjusting the floater more open or closed. It is not a chemical issue but is strictly an issue of floater adjustment. The floater is adjusted to maintain the bromine level in the desired range. This automatically compensates for the maintained water temperature and the normal turbulence of the water (combination of jet properties, aeration, and pump run time.) However, the OP has a sanitizer demand issue. The OP stated : This indicates that there is a high sanitizer demand in his tub and is most likely related to biofilm in the plumbing or other contamination
  6. Is your spa plaster? If it's not and is a standard acrylic shell then why are you working about CSI? Keep your calcium above 130 and under 200 to minimize foaming, TA 60 or 70 if your pH stays stable, borate 30 to 50, CYA at 30, and keep the pH in the 7.7 - 7.8 sweet spot (try to keep PH in the range of 7.6 to 8.0) and main your FC in the 3 to 6 ppm range. When you have combined chlorine higher than 1 ppm then shock. Don't make your water balancing harder than you need and most importantly, it's a hot tub, not a science project so enjoy it.
  7. Any brand of (either germicidal or laundry) chlorine bleach without scents, thickeners, or detergents that is 5.25%, 6%, or 8.25% OR liquid pool chlorine that is 10% or 12.5% is fine. It does not to be Clorox brand. House brands from the grocer or big box store are fine as long as their are plain unscented unthickened chlorine bleach or liquid pool chlorine in the strengths listed.
  8. Until the bromide bank is established you will have a chlorine tub if you have not added sodium bromine on filling. As long as your sanitizer is testing in the correct range you are fine. Bromine tablets are mostly chlorine along with a small amount of organic bromine. Test your bromine level, keep it at 4 to 6 ppm and you are good whether it's bromine or chlorine in the tub. Eventually it will be bromine, usually a few weeks after a fresh fill. If you can get sodium bromide use it. Normal dosing to establish bromide bank immediately is 1/2 oz per 100 gallons. Add the sodium bromide, shock with chlorine or MPS and put your floater in. Adjust floater to maintain 4 to 6 ppm bromine (some trial and error here but once you get it right your bromine levels will remain stable), and shock with chlorine or MPS every week or two, depending on tub usage. My feeling is that sanitizer and pH should be tested daily (ideally before going into the tub, IMHO). Shock weekly wit chlorine
  9. You might have gotten more responses by starting a new topic with your questioninstead of posting on to the tail end of a 9 years old thread that really has nothing to do with what you are asking. The manual for the self cleaning hot tubs (which the 1038 is) are on the Hydropool site https://www.hydropoolhottubs.com/en/Support/Product_Manuals However, it seems that you want a service manual. My suggestion is to contact Hydropool or a dealer and see if either can help you. Service manuals are not normally supplied to end users. @RDspaguy, @CanadianSpaTech any other ideas or info?
  10. Pretty sure your filter is clogged with "baquagoo" (technical term for the stuff that forms when biguinide sanitizes, it causes bacteria cell walls to 'explode' creating a goo that clogs filters and causes scum lines. The peroxide oxidizder helps to a degree but if there is a high bacteria load it can only do so much. Each person entering the tub adds urine, sweat (almost identical chemically to urine), and feces to the water no matter how clean they THINK they are and the sanitizer/oxidizer has to deal with it. Both chlorine and bromine are both sanitizers and oxidizers. Biguinide is only a santizer and relies on a peroxide to oxidize. I am not a fan of biguinde systems. In addition, the bacteria eventually develop a resistance leading to white water mold and pink slime (both bacterial). The only differenced between BaquaSpa and Softsoak is that the former is made by KIK (multiple pool/spa brands including Biolab, SpaGuard, Clorox Pool & Spa, Natural Chemistry, SeaKlear, and others) and the latter is made by Sigura Water (multiple pool/spa brands including Baqua, HTH, Renzezvous, GLB, Applied Biochemists and others). Both are biguinide/peroxide sanitizer systems.
  11. Your CH is fine. Relax and enjoy the tub, it's not a chemistry set! Soft water (low CH) is more likely to cause foaming than hard water (high calcium hardness) Anything above 120 - 130 ppm is enough to deter foaming. High CH will increase the possiblilty of scale formation. IF your CH is higher than 300-400 ppm you might want to add a scale inhibitor weekly to your tub unless you have a way to fill with softer water. Other than that hardness is not a factor with acrylic spas. IF you have a plaster or fiberglass tub then hardness and the calcium saturation index becomes important to protect the plaster surface or to help prevent cobalt spotting in the fiberglass shell (although the data on calcium hardness and cobalt spotting and iron staining is inconclusive it does no harm to maintain the water at the correct calcium saturation index with a fiberglass pool or spa, IMHO).
  12. I was out of town for my niece's wedding and was only gone for a week! Am I really that important? To answer the questions of the OP: 1. Only Total Bromine is tested, unlike chlorine where we test for free chlorine (which sanitizes) and combined chlorine (which does not) since combined bromine is an active sanitizer, unlike chlorine. 2. partially correct. If hardness is too low (very soft water) there is more chance of foaming. Hardness above about 120 ppm or so should be more than enough. IF the hardness is very high (more than 300 to 400 ppm) there is a chance of scaling occurring so a scale preventative might be needed. There is NO correlation between hardness and corrosion of metal parts. This is strictly a function of pH being too low. Hardness is mostly an issue with plaster pools and tubs but both vinyl pools and fiberglass pools can have some adverse effects with hardness that is too low (leaching of plasticizers from vinyl liners and cobalt spotting in fiberglass pools). The vast majority of hot tubs shells are acrylic,so other than foaming or scale deposits as mentioned above, calcium hardness is not a major issue. 3. Enzymes are a waste of money and not needed. Just keep your bromine in the range of 4 to 6 ppm and your pH in the range of 7.2 to 8.0 and shock once a week or so. I recommend shocking with chlorine and not MPS. 4. Test total bromine and pH daily, test TA and CH weekly, TDS is bogus, don't bother. I suspect your low pH is because you are testing with strips. They tend to read low for some reason. With a TA of 120 (once again suspect because you are using strips) I would be very surprised that your pH does not start rising when the tub is running, Hardness if 250 is fine. I believe you are located in Canada. The bad news is that Taylor test kits are expensive there but still worth the money, IMHO. (The Canadian prices are set by the Canadian distributor for Taylor Technologies). If you cannot get the K-2106 for bromine then you can use the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine and multiply the free chlorine test by 2.25 to get a total bromine reading. (You will not need the included combined chlorine test or the Cyanuric acid test since they are only for chlorine. The other included tests are identical in both kits.) As an alternative you can get a LaMotte ColorQ kit. Get the one with liquid reagents if possible. Be aware that it uses the DPD method for bromine and chlorine and that is subject to bleachout at high (shock) sanitizer levels, leading you to believe that sanitizer is low when it is actually high and the pH test will suffer from interference at a lower sanitizer level than the Taylor reagent (which will give inaccurate or inconclusive pH results) Read these posts (they should answer just about all your questions): https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
  13. just let the bromine drop to normal levels. If the problem persists and it was my tub then I would shock again but raise the bromine to 15 to 20 ppm and keep it there for 24 hours.Then let the bromine levels drop with tub uncovered and don't get in until the bromine is below 10 ppm.
  14. This is a moot point. Shock means to raise the oxidizer levels high enough to burn off organics in the water. Last time I checked hypobromous acid was an oxidizer. This is no different than shocking with chlorine in a chlorine system. You are raising the hypochlorous acid levels high enough to oxidize organics. MPS works much the same by adding enough oxidizer, in this case MPS, to oxidize organics. Shock is a verb that means raising the level of oxidizer high enough to destroy organics in the spa. Hydrogen peroxide is used as an oxidizer to shock biguinide systems. Shocking works the same no matter what sanitizer system you are using.
  15. This is untrue. Sodium Thiosulfate (commonly sold as chlorine neutralizer at pool/spa supply stores) will also lower bromine levels in addition to chlorine.
  16. No, I locked the thread because people come to this forum to learn proper water care and your advise, as @RDspaguyalready stated , was irresponsible and potentially unsafe.. This thread is going to be locked also because your only purpose in starting it was to complain that we would not let you post irresponsible information on water care when it is obvious you have no experience or background in it.
  17. the process is slow at first when the TA is high and needs to be repeated since the TA will not move downward at first. However, once the TA starts going down the process speeds up. I would suggest aerating overnight at the start of the process, which can take a few days. If you are not planning on using the tub you can turn the heat down during the process but the tub is fully usable during this process as long as you don't accidentally drop the pH below 7.0 and wait about 30 minutes after adding acid with circulation on before entering the tub. This should have been your first step since they explain what you are trying to do.
  18. I would just like to add that this is after any powder chemicals added, such as TA increaser (baking soda), have fully dissolved. Even better, predissolve any dry chemicals in a bucket of water before adding to the spa, particularly dry acid or shock.
  19. in a word, NO. However, your TA is on the high side for a spa, If you find that your pH is constantly rising and you have to add acid frequently then: DO NOT use soda ash to raise pH, Uncover and aerate the spa (jets and air injectors on full) to cause CO2 to gas off, which will cause pH to rise. IF you need to QUICKLY raise pH because of an overdose of acid and the pH in the spa is below 7.0 then use Borax (sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, 20 Mule Borax in the laundry aisle of the grocery store) at twice the dos of soda ash for the same pH rise. It will have minimal impact on your TA. Use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) for raising TA if needed. Don't try to keep you pH at 7.4. Shoot for 7.6 to 7.8. Lower it when it hits 8.0. What is your CH? Here are some posts for you to read that explain the relationship between pH and TA and how to lower your TA properly: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
  20. Shocking in a bromine system, whether manual or with a swg converts raises the bromine level high enough to destroy any problems in the water, usually 10 ppm or higher bromine. Your generator has a 'boost mode" which is basically a shock setting, same as most chlorine based SWGs, which will raise your bromine levels. If there is a problem with the water the manual for in.clear states that the boost mode can be repeated and that if there is a continued problem to purge the spa with one of the many spa purge products to get rid of biofilm. FWIW, in a manual 2 step or 3 step bromine system chlorine is the most common oxidizer used to convert bromide into hypobromous acids with MPS being the second most common and, in fact, bromine tabs are mostly chlorine with enough bromine to maintain the bromide bank. Also, there are SWGs on the market that can be used either as chlorine or bromine systems and when they are used as bromine systems they are still used with sodium chloride and generate chlorine but the difference is that with every fill enough sodium bromine is added to create the same bromine reserve as in a manual 2 step or 3 step bromine system. This is a huge cost savings, particularly for a bromine swimming pool or swim spa because the cost of sodium bromide is much higher than the cost of sodium chloride. There are some design differences between the electrodes used in a sodium bromide based SW bromine system and a sodium chloride based SW bromine system (a chlorine system with a bromide bank so bromine sanitizer is produced instead of chlorine sanitizer). Sodium Bromide based systems often use carbon electrodes while sodium chloride based systems often use titanium/iridium electrodes although some of the low end systems also use carbon electrodes. Whether adding chlorine as an oxidizer to your system would have detrimental effects of the cell or whether it is a technique for the manufacturer to get you to buy more (expensive sodium bromine) I do not know but either is possible.
  21. Increasing your bromine output increased the aeration. Lower your alkalinity as I suggested before. This is how you lower alkalinity: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ I had already posted this link for you last Wednesday along with another one that explains about pH rise in hot tubs and pools.
  22. depends on the pH and ORP can change throughout the day I'm not a fan of ORP in home installations. 4-6 ppm for bromine is a good range and the low bromine readings you have could allow pseudomonas to grow. Bromine is active in a wide pH range of about 7.2 to 8.0. With the extra aeration from your ozone and SWG your pH will be constantly rising. IF you keep your pH toward the upper end (7.6 to 7.8) and the alkalinity lower (50 to 70 ppm) you will minimize this and get better pH stability.
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