Pool Owner

You may want to contact Clorox directly (http://www.thecloroxcompany.com). On their website they list the UK as “Clorox headquarters or division office” and “Clorox manufacturing facilities (either Clorox owned or joint venture)” Therefore, I would expect it to be readily available. Good luck.

Since you have a spa, have you tried draining and refilling the spa, and are still having the problem? If not, I would try that first to see if it goes away. It could be that you are allergic to something in the chemicals and/or in the water that is not being killed. It is my understanding that you still need to use a little chlorine along with the bromine to reactivate it and kill all of the bugs, so you may want to double check the instructions for using bromine. For the future, you may want to invest about $30 into getting a good reference pool book. If you have not yet done so, check your local library for books on the subject of pool maintenance/construction to see if there is one you like. I have a short review of a few books on my blog (noted below). While it is very large, I think you will find “The Ultimate Pool Maintenance Manual” a good choice. Since it is almost 700 pages, you need to use it like these pool bulletin boards, search for the information you need and only read the part that covers your problem. The same author has a book intended just for Spa owners which I have not read.

While I am an experienced DIY, I hired a pool builder because it was too much of an investment to get wrong. I utilized my DIY skills to keep on top of the project, asking questions and providing direction to get what I thought I wanted (I did learn a few things that I will eventually share on my blog). I have some information that may be useful on my blog. There is one link for a DIY gunnite/plaster pool website. For the future, you may want to invest about $30 into getting a good reference pool book. If you have not yet done so, check your local library for books on the subject of pool maintenance/construction to see if there is one you like. I have a short review of a few books on my blog (noted below). While it is very large, I think you will find “The Ultimate Pool Maintenance Manual” a good choice. Since it is almost 700 pages, you need to use it like these pool bulletin boards, search for the information you need and only read the part that covers your problem. I’m in the process of reading a few other books on pool construction; however, none of them are complete enough for DIY.

Walter, I think the basics include utility connections [e.g.; water; power (electricity); fuel (natural gas, propane, and fuel oil); sewer; or storm drainage) as needed for your intended pool equipment and/or building department requirements. Other possibilities include, conduit for pool equipment automation and/or audio speakers, underground supply and return pipes for solar heating, etc. If you have not yet done so, you will want to determine a likely location for your pool and equipment platform, as well as, planning/building department setbacks and requirements. My rule of thumb it that it is usually MUCH less expensive to provide needed and extra underground pipes/conduit installed early that may be unused, than the cost of installing something you needed later after your landscaping is completed. Do not forget that construction access will be needed for installing a pool, which can significantly damage any existing hardscape and landscape in the path. For the future, you may want to invest about $30 into getting a good reference pool book. If you have not yet done so, check your local library for books on the subject of pool maintenance/construction to see if there is one you like. I have a short review of a few books on my blog (noted below). While it is very large, I think you will find “The Ultimate Pool Maintenance Manual” a good choice. Since it is almost 700 pages, you need to use it like these pool bulletin boards, search for the information you need and only read the part that covers your problem. Also, I have links on my blog to a few pool construction sites that may be helpful. Good luck!

pnwtub, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Fiber mesh has been used in concrete for at least two decades. It does not provide any structural strength to the concrete; therefore, I would not recommend it is you have an expansive soil concern. The fiber mesh is similar to 1- to 2- inch chopped pieces of “fiberglass” added and mixed into the wet concrete. The fibers help to hold the concrete together across their length, so it has proven to be an effective method for reducing “micro cracks” in concrete. Micro cracks can be penetrated by water and can increase the likelihood of concrete spalling during the freeze-thaw cycles in colder climates. As to the size of the slab, generally this is personal preference assuming it is properly constructed. What you have described should work. I do not think there is any one absolute right or wrong method for installing an above ground spa’s support structure. My recommendation is to pick a contractor you feel comfortable with and ask to see some examples of their work in a similar situation (e.g., soils, use, etc.). Also, unless you are comfortable with construction terms and methods, I would recommend that the contractor pull building permits to ensure the final installation meets all safety requirements (e.g., equipment bonding, etc.). Luckily the prefabricated above ground spas are sold with most of the safety concerns address in the manufacturing process and/or installation instructions. Good luck.

Greg (GKL), it sounds like you have a good plan (get use of your spa sooner than later). If your existing pavers patio has been around for a few years and is in good shape, utilizing similar base construction should be adequate for a concrete slab (even 4-inch). Roger confirmed that concrete can be placed during cold weather by knowledgeable contractor/finisher that is willing to do the job right.

Generally I would expect a 4-inch slab to be adequate, especially with the base you described. And if there was an existing slab I would say “go for it.” However, if your “heavy clay soil” is expansive, I would consider increasing the slab thickness to 6-inch and using at least #3 (maybe #4) rebar at 12 inches on center both ways (at least the section under your spa). It all comes down to construction cost vs. repair/reconstruction cost. It is not that hard to reconstruct a typical slab on grade but if your spa slab cracks for tilts significantly, it will require removing your spa during reconstruction. Check out the cost for a few more inches and better reinforcing steel under the spa. I’m from the “old school”…”when in doubt – make it stout!” If it is only a little more money up front, it is well worth it in the long run.

Good question. Concrete can be placed in cold weather but it is more difficult. Doing a Google search for “cold weather concrete” will provide a number of good resources. Basically if your concrete contractor/finisher is knowledgeable about the process of working in cold weather and is prepared to provide the supplies/manpower to properly cure the concrete, it should not be a problem. If you can wait and you expect a warm spell, it is safer to place concrete when the minimum air temperature remains above freezing (say 35 degrees F). http://www.askthebuilder.com/104_Cold_Weat...tallation.shtml http://www.deeconcrete.com/coldweatherconcrete.html http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/custom...ads/TB_0106.pdf The above websites may be helpful If you go ahead, the procedure shown here should work for you (http://www.decorative-concrete.net/feature_11-04-02.php)

chem geek, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I will check with the store manager after the first of the year but I may not be able to get any more information until after their March manager's meeting when he expected to get the okay to sell the "product" durning the 2007 swim season. However, being in Southern California where we do not close pools for the winter, I expect he will start selling the product as soon as it is in the store. I will let you know when I get any more information.

Is there really a (new) product on the market that will keep the pH in the 7.4 to 7.6 range for about 6 months? Do the water experts and/or chemists in the group have any information? I searched the forum and could not find anything, but if it is there please point me in the right direction. Yesterday I was in my local national retailer. In talking with the manager about my need to frequently lower the pH in my less than a year old plaster, 30,000-gallon pool with a salt/chlorine generator. He said that pools with salt/chlorine generators are always fighting high pH (I assume vs. those using acetic dichlor or trichlor products for sanitation). And, there is a new product they will likely start carrying early next spring that will maintain the pH in the optimal range for about six months. It is in testing now and showing good results. He expects the product to retail for about $60, which averages out to about $10 per month. If it really works, the new product cost would not be much of an increase for me and probably worth the extra money if it keeps the pH down. What’s the word?

To help removing scale before draining your spa, try ScaleTec Plus. You should double check that it is okay for plastic/fiberglass shells. It is from McGrayel Corporation, Easy Care Products Division, which is located in Fresno, CA, USA. Their website is www(dot)mcgrayel(dot)com; however, it has had problems every time I’ve checked. I have found this product at a few local pool supply retailers and just today my local Leslie’s. Reportedly it is real good at removing scale with natural chemicals, which are less likely to create other water chemistry problems. Please reply to your post with your solution (especially if you used this product and like/dislike it).

Sanitizer and algaecides might harm your grass. Since you are going to be changing the water anyway, let your chemicals get as close to neutral as possible before discharging your spa water onto plants. If your soil has adequate drainage and the water does not puddle, it is doubtful that you will over water the grass since the amount of water in your spa is likely to be less than 1-inch of rain would provide to your yard (stop automatic sprinklers if needed). Since you have a septic system, I assume you have a relatively large area for your drain field. 100 gallons of spa water at an average water level of 1-inch will spread out over about 160 square feet of grass (heavy day of rain in my area of the country). Therefore; if you have a 1,000-gallon spa, you would want at least 1,600 square feet of grass to absorb the water. If you are concerned, drain your spa in portions over a couple of days with about 8 hours between each draining session. You can increase or decrease as needed for your specific soil conditions.

topnurse, you are probably done by now, but if not, here are my thoughts…It sounds like you are doing all of your homework. There is a lot of good information on California’s Contractor State License Board website (http://www.cslb.ca.gov/), including “Before You Dive Into Swimming Pool Construction...” publication. After talking to a couple of larger pool contractors, I ended up using a small company (Titan Pool in Anaheim) because of strong personal recommendations. If you have not yet done so, check your local library for books on the subject of building a pool. I have a short review of two books on my blog (noted below) and I have not yet gotten around to reviewing “The Swimming Pool” which is another book I like that is geared towards new pool construction.

For my two cents, your new pool is a significant investment and it is not easy to change the plumbing after the fact, so get your pool builders (or the one you like best) to explain the differences and why they recommend the choice they made. Like the other answers here, I would prefer to have individual lines because it provides more choices down the road. Many times the main drain line is connected through a skimmer to prevent running the pump dry if the water level gets too low. A 15 foot high retaining wall is a significant structural element that should be designed by a structural engineer based upon an on-site soils evaluation by a geotechnical engineer. Your investment in your pool is too great not to use the right professionals for the job. It might cost you more up front in design fees but do you really want something almost two stories in height moving any more than anticipated (all cantilevered retaining walls do move some). Slope stability and drainage will be critical for your retaining wall, so spend a little more money during construction to get the structural engineer (and maybe geotechnical engineer) out to review the site during construction. If you have not yet done so, check your local library for books on the subject of building a pool. I have a short review of two books on my blog (noted below) and I have not yet gotten around to reviewing “The Swimming Pool” which is another book I like that is geared towards new pool construction.

Most likely, the reinforcing steel is not a big deal on an 8x10 slab. Generally I would go with the #4 rebar (1/2-inch diameter) since the difference is cost should be negligible and it provides better construction (there should not be any splices in the rebar on a slab this small). If you have expansive soil or a significant frost depth, #4 rebar at no more than 12 inches on center is a good choice. However, if the preparation and placement of concrete is done right there should not be a need for any reinforcing steel for this small slab. Since you will likely have a building permit for this construction (at least for the new electrical hookup) make sure you follow any local requirements. All things being equal, I would provide a bonding wire (typically a 8 gauge bare wire attached to slab steel with a bonding clamp and sticking out of the slab near where you expect to place the pump (or where recommended by the spa manufacturer). Bonding is now required between all metal piping inside new building construction too. The whole idea about bonding is ensuring any object that that may become a “ground” is connected together to the same grounding source, which prevents the possibility of a person being shocked from a short as they complete the circuit to the “ground.” Spa Repair Guy’s comment is good except any metal parts should be bonded to the spa equipment or isolated from “ground.” If you elect not to provide reinforcing steel in your slab, you do not need to provide bonding. That being said, I would expect that most spas placed on existing patio slabs are not bonded and the GFIC is likely to provide adequate safety protection. When possible, stick with non conducting material (e.g., plastic, fiberglass, wood, etc.) within reach (10 feet) of your spa so you do not need to worry about bonding.

The biggest reason to consider a separate pump for the spa is to provide water to additional jets. The typical rule of thumb is 0.25 HP per jet. Therefore, 4 jets for a 1 HP pump used for both pool and spa option, and 8 jets for a dedicated 2 HP jet pump. On the down side, it takes a little more electricity to run the bigger pump. Also, you will probably need to run the circulating 1 HP pump to heat the spa since two pumps typically have their own piping system (circulating pump connected to both the pool and spa AND heater). For my two cents, your new pool is a significant investment and it is not easy to change the number of jets after the fact, so get both pool builders (or the one you like best) to explain the differences and why they recommend the choice they made. When I had my pool built, the contractor I selected provided a basic pool construction cost, then provided the cost of extras (many we ask about) so we were able to pick and chose. If you have not yet done so, check your local library for books on the subject of building a pool. I have a short review of two books on my blog (noted below) and I have not yet gotten around to reviewing “The Swimming Pool” which another book I like that geared towards new pool construction.

This is a great discussion. By now I hope things have improved for annwithoutanE. It sounds like there is a water chemistry problem. Without a good set of tests, it is just shooting in the dark. Taking a water sample in for testing and/or getting a quality test kit will get things going on the right track. Then implement the corrections in steps to allow the water to “balance” (a day to a week on infrequent drastic changes). It is important to keep in mind that most pool test procedures are accurate (easily repeatable with results within an acceptable range) but not precise (it is just not that critical – close is good enough in horseshoes, hand grenades, and pool chemistry). I took the same sample of water to three different pool retailers within one hour of being drawn and found that most came up with similar opinions and recommendations about the water but their “values” were not consistent. For comparison, I also tested the same water for the big three (chlorine, Ph, and alkalinity) myself with my chemical kit and test strips, and I had slightly different results too. The biggest difference from the “professionals” was in conditioner, some had me adding while others said I almost had too much. Now I always test at least twice if anything looks unusual or there is a visible water problem. Here are my thoughts about chlorine (sanitizer)…there should be an adequate amount of free-available chlorine to have a good chance of killing any harmful “bugs” that get into the pool within a reasonable amount of time. My chlorinated city water does not even register with a standard pool chemistry test, but would never think twice about letting my kids share a bath. Also, with the popularity of spa tubs, I would bet there are many adults with similar thoughts. Personal hygiene is another factor in the “when to swim” equation. If I would feel comfortable letting my kids use the person’s bathroom and sit on the toilet seat, I’m probably going to swim in their pool (or be a guest in my pool). If the swimmers are typically in good health and utilize the bathroom instead of the pool, most backyard swimming pools are much less likely to spread disease than Southern California beaches. I’m not saying to ignore the chlorine level, but you have to remember it is taken at a snapshot in time. In the morning before my salt-chlorine generator has gotten working (I have solar heating so my pump runs during daylight hours) the chlorine level is likely to be “low.” After a day of moderate pool use, the chlorine level is likely to be “acceptable.” Just before a swim party on a hot summer day I typically bump the chlorine and/or use a non-chlorine shock to increase the probability of free-available chlorine. After the party the chlorine may be at “zero” but it is still likely to be “safe” for an evening dip.

Dynamictiger gave you a good answer if you have that setting (most likely a sand filter). If I drain the pool that way with my diatomaceous earth (DE) filter, it will back wash too, which is not always desired. If you have a DE filter system without a dedicated waste line, consider installing one (with a check valve if you are attaching it to a backwash line). Another solution would be to get a small sump pump and use your vacuum hose to direct the water to a safe location. I have a sump pump for the overflow into my automatic pool cover trench, which works for me, but not for most pool owners.