FightinTxAg
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Posts posted by FightinTxAg
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I think you have something going on in your tub, something dirty.
I would keep it at super shock levels for a few days at least and keep checking it.
I would also start using MPS to start lowering your CC more quickly and assist your chlorine.
Yeah, that's what I'm beginning to think too. The guy I bought the tub from went out of town the week before I got it. So he may have had it full for a week with no chemical attention at all.
I thought a full 182 oz jug of bleach, overnight decon, and new filter would take care of any issues, but I'm beginning to think maybe not. Maybe there's some biofilm or something that's going to take a lot of FC and time to resolve.
At 10pm tonight, I had:
TA = 80; pH = 7.6; FC = 9; CC = 1.0
Remember at lunchtime I had 8.5 FC and added 8 oz of Bleach (so ~10ppm FC). That means, I should've had about 18.5 FC.
So again, I must've lost ~50% of FC in about 12 hours.
Well, with a measured residual of 9ppm FC, I figured it would be ok to have a soak. So, we spent about 1.5 bather-hours in the tub. Afterward, I thought I'd go ahead and shock the heck out of it. I added 40 oz of bleach (should be ~50ppm FC). I'll see what I've got left tomorrow. I might wait a full 24 hours to get a real read on FC Demand.
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Tuesday:
I went home at lunch and checked. So this is about 12 hours after I added 4oz Bleach (~5ppm FC) to the tub when it already measured 13.5ppm FC.
TA = 70; pH = 7.5; FC = 8.5; CC = 1.5
*So FC was down from what should've been ~18.5ppm to 8.5ppm in just 12 hours.
*I added another 8oz (10ppm FC) of Bleach.
I added 16oz of bleach on last night, and that should've raise FC about 19ppm.
If an hour later, FC was just 13.5ppm, what does that mean? Does that mean there was a lot of ammonia/urea that combined quickly? Does that mean I probably have a lot of chloramine in the tub now to oxidize?
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Thanks, Bart!
I was kinda hoping to get by without MPS at first, trying to keep things simple as I start out, and avoid adding another variable. But, if I'm going to have trouble keeping the FC up without throwing a little MPS in, then I guess I'll have to abandon that.
Question: Is there a linear or quadratic or some higher order equation that relates FC loss to time? I'm curious if there might be a way to figure out FC Demand in a time period less than 24 hours.
For instance, if the relationship were linear (which I doubt), then the equation would look like:
A(t) + B = FC Loss
Then, if 10% of FC was used in 2 hours, and 17% was used in 4 hours, you could solve for FC Demand, and have it figured out in 4 hours instead of 24.
A(2) + B = .10
A(2) = .10 - B
A = ( .10 - B ) / 2
A(4) + B = .17
[( .10 - B ) / 2](4) + B = .17
B = .03
A = .035
FC Demand is FC Loss at t = 24. So...
A(24) + B = .035(24) + .03 = 87%
Then, knowing you were on track for an 87% FC Demand, you could add more chlorine. And, then refigure your FC Demand again within a couple hours. This would let you get a high FC Demand problem resolved in a matter of hours instead of days.
If the equation is quadratic, or something even higher, you might need several data points, over a couple hours and do a best fit trendline in Excel to find the proper equation. Then, you could use that to determine FC Demand at the 24 hour mark.
But, you'd need to know the order of the equation that relates FC Demand to Time to do this.
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I got a used 400 gal Jacuzzi Model 340 (~10 years old) off Craigslist.
I started off doing a decon last Wed. I added an entire 182 oz jug of bleach, which should've put FC up over 200ppm. I ran the tub with high jets for about an hour, opening and closing the air controls every 10-15 minutes or so. Then, I turned it down to circulation, and let it run overnight.
Thurs:
Drained, installed a new filter, filled and tested for baseline.
CH = 190; TA = 160; pH = 7.9; FC = 0
*I added 24oz of Borax to get my borates up to 50.
*I added 12oz of Acid to lower pH, TA, and balance the Borax.
*I added 10 oz of Bleach (~12ppm FC).
*I added 1 oz HTH Stabilizer/Conditioner.
Friday:
I was surprised with all the stuff I added, everything seemed to zero in on what I was aiming for. Beginner's luck, I guess.
TA = 80; CYA = just under 30; pH = 7.5; FC = 4.5
*I added 4 oz Bleach (~5ppm FC).
*We were kind of excited, and it was Friday night. So we invited some friends over, and there were probably 8 bather-hours spent in the tub.
*I added 8oz Bleach afterward (~10ppm FC).
Saturday:
Crap! FC went to zero. I knew I should've tested instead of just throwing 8oz of bleach at it and assuming that'd be good.
pH = 7.9; FC = 0
*I added 20 oz Bleach (~24ppm FC).
*I added 2 oz of Acid.
Sunday:
I wanted to check to see if TA had moved since the acid and aerating Friday night. I also wanted to make sure my CYA hadn't depleted when the FC was zero:
TA = 40; CYA = just under 30; pH = 6.8; FC = 4; CC = .5
*I added 4 oz of Baking Soda to raise the TA.
*I added 2 oz of Borax to raise the pH. So now my Borates must = 54.
*Since I still had FC left, I thought it'd be safe for the wife and I to have a quick soak. The two of us were in the tub maybe 20 min, so <1 bather-hour.
*I added 8 oz of Bleach after the soak (~10ppm FC).
Monday:
Crap! FC back to zero, and I overshot the pH.
CH = 170; TA = 90; pH = 8.0; FC = 0
*I added 16 oz of Bleach (~20ppm FC)
*I added 1 oz of Acid.
*I added 2 oz of HTH Defoamer because I noticed foam during the Sunday night soak.
An hour later:
pH = 7.5; FC = 13.5
*I was concerned that a third of FC was used up in an hour. So I added another 4oz (~5ppm FC) for good measure.
I think at this point, I have to just stay on top of pH and TA, and keep shocking to an FC above 10ppm and not use the tub until FC demand is 50% or less. Is that the right track?
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Read chem geek's post here:
http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19899
If that doesn't explain it, I'm sure he'll come along and clear up any confusion.
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1. If aerating and adding acid lowers TA, won't TA creep down over time with use and adding acid to balance pH?
2. Is there something wrong with keeping FC up near 10 all the time? Most of the advice I've read suggest maintaining it at 2-6 and shocking to 10 once a week. What's wrong with maintaining a higher level of FC, to allow more room for error?
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I called Leslie's, and they had the filter (or a compatible one) in stock. I ran up there to look at it, and it had a closed top. So, I bought it. Guess the one in there currently is incorrect.
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When seated in my skimmer, my filter is completely submerged below the water surface. The filter cartridge is open at the top. Can't water go unfiltered by entering the filter at the top? Am I missing a plug or something that's supposed to seal the top of the filter and make all water pass through the element?
Maybe I have the wrong filter element? It looks like the correct filter element is 6199000. Does anyone know if this filter is supposed to be closed at the top?
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That fixed it. I moved the white to the load neutral terminal on the breaker switch. I've got it running now. Thanks!
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Is the nuetral wire going to the spa attached to load nuetral on the GFCI breaker? It must be on the breaker or it will never set. Follow the diagram on the back of the spa pack cover for connections. It could be a dual voltage pack 120 or 230
I have a Midwest GFCI box, which I think has a Seimens GFCI breaker switch. The breaker switch has 3 terminals. I get 230V (actually 245V) across 2 of the terminals, and that's where I hooked up my hot leads. I have nothing else connected to the breaker switch itself, aside from the pigtail that goes to the box's neutral bar. Is this 3rd terminal, which I have nothing connected to, the load neutral you're talking about?
Here's a crude MS Paint sketch of what I've got in the GFCI box.
Are you saying the white neutral line from the spa actually needs to go to the open terminal on the GFCI breaker switch, and not to the neutral bar in the GFCI box?
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Do you have the two neutrals in the breaker box wire nutted together or are they connected to the ground bar in the gfi breaker box? If they are If they are connected to the ground bar, remove them and wire nut them together.
They're connected to the neutral bar in the GFCI box, along with the pigtail from the GFCI breaker. This is incorrect? If I just wire-nut the two neutrals together in the box, the GFCI pigtail will be on the neutral bar all by itself, essentially unconnected to anything.
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One more thing that occurs to me. Maybe I don't need the neutral?
I have a manual for my spa. It's actually kind of a generic manual that seems to apply for about a dozen different models. It says:
Electrical RequirementsYour spa requires a 230 VAC, 50 AMP, 4-wire, grounded type GFCI protected electrical service with copper conductors, and must be in a separate circuit having no other appliance connected in that circuit. If you do not have this kind of circuit, a qualified electrician should install the necessary wiring. A wiring diagram is provided on the inside cover of the electrical control box. Inadequately sized wiring may cause the unit to malfunction and bring about permanent damage to the spa’s electrical system. The circuit must also have a ground wire in order to take advantage
of the designed-in safety features of the spa. A bond wire must also be used.
WARNING: Without proper grounding and bonding, a system malfunction may cause fatal shock.
So, after reading that, I assumed it needed 4 wires hooked into the spa pack - 2 hots, ground (green), and neutral (white). But, after re-reading that section, it might be that the neutral just needs to be run to the spa's GFCI panel, and not to the spa itself. But, why would the spa have a terminal for a white neutral wire, if nothing should be connected to it? Could it be the spa pack was used on other models that needed the neutral (for some 110V components), and that's why it has a provision for a neutral?
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I bought a 10 year old Jacuzzi Model 340 off Craigslist. It was running and hot at the seller's house, though I'm not sure he had it hooked up to a GFCI breaker, or just a regular one. I got it home and hooked it up. I wanted to flip the breaker on quickly for a second or two, before filling, just to make sure the spa would power up and that I had it hooked up correctly. Well, it trips the 50 amp GFCI breaker in the spa panel immediately. Turn on the breaker, and you can hear a click from the spa before the breaker shuts back off. Here's what I've tried (I can't be accused of not searching the forum):
1. Disconnected the spa, and made sure the breaker will stay on when energized, but not connected to the spa. Breaker is brand new, and seems fine. It doesn't trip when powered up, but disconnected from the spa.
2. Disconnected the heater from the spa pack, and checked resistance across the two lugs. I get 11.2 ohms. Seems ok. Breaker still trips immediately with heater disconnected.
3. Disconnected both pumps and the light from the spa pack. Breaker still trips immediately.
4. Disconnected the spa from the breaker. With the heater, pumps, and light all still disconnected, I checked for a short to ground by checking resistance between the spa's hot lead terminals and ground/neutral terminals. Here's what I have:
---Red to ground or neutral is infinity.
---Black to ground (green) is infinity.
---Black to neutral (white) is 41.5 ohms???
There's a jumper between where the black hot lead connects to the board (#2 slot) and the #6 slot on the board. If I disconnect this, resistance between black and neutral goes to infinity and the breaker won't trip. But, nothing comes on at all with that jumper disconnected. Here's a picture of the jumper, with the ends of it circled in yellow.
Maybe 41.5 ohms on the black circuit is fine - representing the resistance for powering up the control panel or something? But, even if so, shouldn't that circuit be between the hot and ground (green), and not between hot and neutral (white)?
Finally, there wouldn't be something in the spa that causes an external breaker to trip if you try to power it up empty, would there? I mean, if it were an internal fuse or breaker that was blowing, I might believe the spa has some kind of self-preservation feature to keep you from running it dry. But, I find it hard to believe the spa would do something like switch a circuit to include the neutral leg, counting on an external GFCI breaker to save itself.
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I would just see if the pump runs first. If the motor sounds fine and there is no bearing noise, then it should be ok. If you are ambitious, you can take the motor off the pump housing and inspect the impeller to see if that is ok but you could always replace that later even if it isn't.
It's ok to run it dry?
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I got a free 220V 1.5 hp pump, 11kw heater, air blower, filter and an ancient mechanical timer/control box from a buddy. He had already cut up the tub to haul off. I was hoping to land a free tub shell with jets (or a free non-working tub) and plumb it all together to create a free, working, Frankenstein hot tub.
He said everything worked except that the heater leaked last time he had it all running. The heater is a 1985 Raypak that looks something like this: Link
The top copper ell fitting that includes the mounting flange for the element had separated from the vertical pipe that the element runs inside of. I took it to a plumber because I didn't think my little propane torch would do very well trying to sweat a big 3" pipe. I'm supposed to pick it up today, and hopefully the heater will be good now.
My question is if there's a way to check the pump without having a hot tub. I don't want to get too far down this path and realize the pump I've got is junk from sitting too long. I could run some 6ga test leads out of my service panel to the pump alone, and then flip on the breaker to see if the pump runs. I could fill a trashcan with water and run some hose from the pump's suction line into it to see if the pump will move water. But, even that's not going to tell me if the pump is performing up to snuff, right? If it runs and moves water with no backpressure on the outlet side of the pump, I could still have a bad impeller, right? Is there any way, short of finding a tub, moving it to my house, and wiring/plumbing everything up to see if the pump is really in good working order?
Thanks.
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Week 1 Challenges
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
I put in a new filter with the fresh filling, after the decontamination.