Dietitian
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Posts posted by Dietitian
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Holy...ph at 10.7??? That's about as high as ammonia.
You must have a misreading. How in the hell could it get that high?
Rarely does my ph get above 7.6
It was after a new fill -- my tap water is currently 9.5, and I accidentally had the air jets on, it climbed overnight....
I have an electronic meter that I calibrate every week. They're 50-100 bucks on amazon.
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Sorry, I thought you were talking about normal pool/spa conditions. Yes of course PH at the extremes of both ends will be corrosive to most metals. Given many chemical tanks are made out of fiberglass, that should hold up better than the metal but could still damage the surface. I think exposure time also plays a role. Are you planning an experiment or disposing of a body?
Recommendations from Dow:
My tub got up to PH 10.7 and I ran out of dry acid last night, wondering if 10.7 is damaging for an overnight stay in my tub : )
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High PH can cause scaling which is the opposite of corrosive but it depends on the other levels; TA, CH, water temperature, TDS. You can use the poolcalculator.com to determine CSI which is an indication of scaling. The larger the CSI, the more likely the scaling.
At some point the PH would be so high as to dissolve human flesh (lye will cause caustic burns)
Can it become high enough to dissolve hot tub materials?
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Is a very high PH corrosive, or just likely to leave mineral deposits? Could PH get so high as to damage metal/tile parts?
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Muriatic acid
Dave
I don't have that... any household chemicals i can use?
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What can I use as a replacement for dry acid? Can I use sulfuric acid drain cleaner? Vinegar?
It's a 30 min drive to get more chemicals, so this would be a one time fix; any suggestions?
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See how things go at a TA of 40 or 50 ppm and with the 50 ppm Borates. I think you're not having the Borates made the problem worse. The Borates should cut the rate of pH rise at least in half and that might be more tolerable. Your ozonator probably isn't helping, but that's just the way it is. If after the borates you still can't maintain pH easily, then you could use Dichlor-only instead and change the water more frequently since Dichlor is net acidic -- either that or you may need to add acid more frequently. Again, see what happens after the borates as they should help. You may also do better after you get the CYA up from a week of Dichlor (CYA is another pH buffer as well).
Is there any problem with TA 40 per se? If the TA is 40 and the CSI is near zero, is that still a problem?
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Crazy talk or sensible advice?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mercola/t...h_b_472953.html
Mercola picks and chooses, exaggerates, and lies. Fact check his Splenda articles for case in point.
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Currently my water arrives with about 3ppm FC and 2ppm combined chlorine, PH 9, and 600 ppm TDS. The water routinely falls out of spec as well. This summer the water contained unsafe ammonia levels for three months. We were notified this winter of the error.
Yikes! No wonder you taste the chlorine. Our water used to have < 1 ppm FC by the time it got to our house and now with monochloramine it's 1.2 ppm, but still hard to taste the chlorine or monochloramine itself. In our situation, the "bad" taste is mostly from other things in the water.
The combination of 3 ppm FC with 2 ppm CC is a bit of a concern. It would seem that the CC is persistent since if it started out as ammonia it should have been oxidized by the time it got to your house. So it may be some sort of organic that is slower to oxidize.
I don't know if hydrogen peroxide will be a strong enough reducing agent to dechlorinate the CC. It will certainly be able to remove the FC. You could certainly try it to see how it works by measuring the FC and CC after treatment. Add enough treating the CC as if it were FC in terms of calculating the amount of hydrogen peroxide needed. So to get rid of 5 ppm FC+CC in one gallon, it would take about one drop of 3% hydrogen peroxide, assuming around 20 drops per ml. Note that the Taylor dropper bottles are around 26 drops/ml.
According to this page, one drop of water is 0.025 ml, which would be 40 drops per ml. Does that seem correct? I assume that water drops change with the TDS and chemical levels, surfactants in the water, etc....
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:VGRHmc...lient=firefox-a
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1.025 ounces of 3% hydrogen peroxide should neutralize 1ppm FC in 500 gallons of SPA water.
Why would you want to add something more to water you drink???
Really????
Don't you think the trained professionals at your local water treatment plant are the best suited to decide how to handle your drinking water?
The professionals are pretty good at providing water that is safe to drink, but it tastes like chlorine. I would like to safely and quickly remove the chlorine from my water to improve taste.
Currently my water arrives with about 3ppm FC and 2ppm combined chlorine, PH 9, and 600 ppm TDS. The water routinely falls out of spec as well. This summer the water contained unsafe ammonia levels for three months. We were notified this winter of the error.
The main problem is the chlorine smell. It can be removed with a Brita filter, but if a drop of H202 can safely remove the chlorine, that seems easier and faster.
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If I want to lower my chlorine level quickly, how much hydrogen peroxide should I use per free chlorine ppm?
Would it be possible to add H202 to a gallon of tap water (for drinking) to reduce the chlorine and improve the taste? Would the chlorine be reduced to chloramines? Would the peroxide attack the chloramines as well?
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Since the water is supersaturated with carbon dioxide, the carbon dioxide acts as a source of Total Acidity.
Normally, when the hydrogen ions dissolve calcium carbonate, the pH will rise and the solution will become less aggressive.
However, the carbon dioxide will prevent the pH rise because it will create more hydrogen ions as the ions in solution get used up.
This creates a solution that has a larger total capacity to dissolve calcium carbonate.
Does this still indicate that teeth are more damaged by carbonated beverages, even though teeth are not made of calcium carbonate?
Does carbonation affect the water's ability to dissolve the tooth's hydroxyapatite (crystalline calcium phosphate) material ?
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Excellent. Does anyone have any experience with this? It seems unlikely that silver alone could keep bacteria in check.
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I think the dental erosion issue brings up an interesting point. Namely, what pool water chemistry conditions can cause dental erosion? I know that low pH is going to be the most important factor.
I think that an extremely low CSI levels could contribute to dental erosion in swimmers who spend a lot of time in the water and allow a lot of contact time between the water and their teeth.
Whether or not dental enamel is eroded by the water can be determined from the solubility product of carbonated hydroxyapatite.
Carbonate ions can substitute for the hydroxyl groups (Type A), or the phosphate groups Type B.
In addition to maintaining an adequate pH at all times, I think that people should avoid very low CSI levels just in case low CSI has an adverse effect on teeth.
There have been several well documented cases of swimmers who have had severe dental erosion due to aggressive pool water.
I think that only severe cases have been traced back to swimming pool water. I think that there have probably been many cases where minor to moderate erosion has occurred due to swimming pool water, and in most such cases, the swimming pool water would not have been identified as the cause.
A low CSI means waster is "calcium hungry" and would be able to pull calcium from the enamel (hydroxyapatite). Is this correct?
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Clearly in the stomach/intestines, getting rid of all bacteria is a no-no and is why you generally eat yogurt or other probiotics after taking a treatment using antibiotics is completed.
The gut depends on bacteria to digest food, and should not be disinfected. The teeth and gums actively fight bacteria using enzymes. They are different systems with different goals.
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Do you really thing that you are going to have a eureka moment with spa chemicals and dental care?
really?????
Don't you think that the various universities and dentists who have fought tooth decay on a daily basis for hundreds of years would know much more about bacteria and PH balance in your mouth than some backyard warrior that just read about similar ingredients on both their spa chemicals and their mouthwash?
The realization that dental plaque is a biofilm was a eureka moment for me, yes. The degradation caused by improper PH and bacterial growth in your mouth is exactly the same problem we combat in our spas.
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Talk to your dentist about your plans to sterilize your mouth. To prevent plaque, they generally recommend regular brushing with a good toothbrush and stimulation of gums with basically a wooden stick instrument. I've never heard of them saying one should sterilize the mouth (on a regular basis) and you'll be reintroducing bacteria frequently from the rest of your body anyway. Clearly in the stomach/intestines, getting rid of all bacteria is a no-no and is why you generally eat yogurt or other probiotics after taking a treatment using antibiotics is completed.
I spoke with a dentist during a round of golf a couple days ago, and he agreed that the two were similar and that disinfecting the mouth is a good idea -- significantly reducing oral microbes is the goal.
Our saliva already contains natural enzymes that work in multiple ways to destroy bacteria, but when the saliva is overwhelmed biofilms begin to form and calcify. Tarter is a calcified biofilm that is removed with dental instruments.
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There is a huge difference since in the body there are beneficial bacteria -- not all are bad and you normally don't want to get rid of everything. Yes, in one's mouth, bacteria don't normally do that much good, but you just want to keep them in check, not sanitize your mouth completely. I still think your best bet is to use a good toothbrush such as Sonicare. A rinse with any standard alcohol-based mouthwash will significantly reduce the bacteria levels in your mouth (I did experiments for this in high school; salt water was OK, but mouthwash was better and the brand didn't matter as it was the alcohol that was the primary rinsing/killing agent).
I think that a sterile mouth is better than a half sterile mouth. A pond or river or lake may have "good" bacteria that keep the water balanced, but none of us tries to keep a spa balanced with rocks, animals, rotting wood, algae, etc. It's possible, but safer to kill 99% of bacteria. I think our teeth are the same. Ponds grow biofilm even when "balanced." Our cave man ancestors didn't live long enough for biofilms to matter (avg lifespan ~30 years) but we certainly do.
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I have found that using the dry chlorine and dry acid powder from Walmart is easier and less messy than using household bleach; it is more expensive but not by much.
What is the actual chemical in the dry chlorine?
calcium hypochlorite
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Chlorine Dioxide Mouthwash
Tl:DR it helps the product maintain the proper ppm extending the shelf life.
Ok...now you are really freaking me out....you have to tell me the deal with dental care living vicariously through spa care in your household. What gives???
Not trying to be mean or anything, but your questions are anything but typical...to say the least.
I'm fascinated by the similarities between keeping a clean and safe spa and keeping the mouth/teeth healthy.
Tooth and spa decay are caused by bacteria and improper PH. To prevent both, oxidizers can be used, along with physical cleaning. Plaque on teeth is a biofilm, the same as one finds in a poorly maintained spa. If we could keep our mouths bacteria-free, we could avoid having plaque(biofilm) build up on our teeth. Additionally, consuming acidic water or beverages is similar to having water with a PH around 3.5 in our spas -- beer, soda, wine, juice is all around PH 3-4, and many purified waters are below 6 PH. Not good for the teeth, not good for the spa either.
I think that people think of them as completely dissimilar ideas, but many people don't realize that failing to clean/disinfect the mouth every day is similar to leaving a hot tub dirty and without sanitizer for 48 hours; it's a pretty bad idea.
Most think that brushing alone will be fine, but that is like imagining that you can keep a spa in good health by simply washing it with soap every day. Some sort of oxidizer is needed. Without it, we get plaque buildup that has to be physically removed by a dentist every six months, and causes damage to teeth during that time as bacteria produce acidic waste under the biofilm.
I'm not sure why oral oxidizer use is not more widely promoted by the ADA; as it stands now, the recommendations are similar to your spa guy telling you to clean the tub with a brush and soap, and call him every six months to come out and scrape the crusty bacterial growth off of the entire thing, replace the damaged or destroyed parts, clean the spa really well, refill and tell you to do it all over again.
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The spreadsheet is here. The 5*FC/CYA rule is approximate and doesn't hold well when the FC is higher than 20% of the CYA level.
The chlorine level of 24 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA is way too high, even accounting for the CYA moderating effect. People are going to notice the chlorine smell. It will be more like a commercial/public spa that is at the high end of the normal range allowed (max. FC for spas is usually 5 ppm and usually they have no CYA). Also, as people sweat, monochloramine will get produced and might build up during the soak enough to smell.
You can try this out on yourself first to see what the experience would be like. I don't think it will be very pleasant. It's not going to burn your skin or anything like that, but most people don't like to smell much chlorine when they soak. Also note that the CYA test is only approximate and that when the FC gets close to the CYA level the amount of active chlorine jumps up quite quickly so you could be underestimating or overestimating the active chlorine amount. This just doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
I understand your concern for having enough chlorine to satisfy all the bather load and to be able to prevent person-to-person transmission of disease, but overchlorinating doesn't sound like a good approach.
Last, but not least, how did you ever figure on 24 ppm FC? If you've got 5 people in the spa, I'm guessing that the spa is larger than 350 gallons. If that is the case, then you can't just multiply the person-hour by 7 ppm since you also have to account for the larger spa size. It is the absolute chlorine amount that is proportional to bather load, not the FC concentration. So if you spa is 700 gallons, then it's around 3.5 ppm FC per person-hour.
My spa is rated to hold five people but is only 280 gallons, and with five people it holds less than that... so I'm fairly concerned with keeping the chlorine level at a safe level....
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I recently purchased a mouthwash that contains four ingredients:
1. Water
2. TSP (trisodium phosphate)
3. Stabilized chlorine dioxide
4. Citric acid
What does "stabilized" chlorine dioxide mean? Do they combine it with CYA?
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And to add a "wildcard" to the mix, the dealer said they could put in an Ozonator for $300... Honestly, even after reading this forum for the past week, I have no clue what's going on and if the Ozonator is worth it.
I am very happy with mine, as it has helped keep combined chlorine to near zero after its installation. There is a strong one available on Amazon for $60 and it should take about an hour to install it -- ask the pool guy what his hourly rate is and if he'd be willing to install one that you purchased online.
I have found that using the dry chlorine and dry acid powder from Walmart is easier and less messy than using household bleach; it is more expensive but not by much. You can also purchase the large bottles of dry powders that are designed for swimming pools -- they are the same chemicals at much lower cost.
I'd also recommend having a defoamer and an enzyme solution on hand just in case someone gets some soap residue in the water, along with "Spa Flush" for when you are ready to drain and refill the spa. You'll also want to order an alternate filter so that you can swap in a new one and clean the old one overnight periodically, and TSP (trisodium phosphate) for cleaning the filter.
In summary I would recommend purchasing the following items now:
Chlorine (most use dichlor then bleach, I use powdered CYA and chlorine)
Dry acid
Baking soda
Boric acid
Defoamer
Enzyme solution
Spa Flush
Filter
Trisodium phosphate
I got my TSP here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1lb-Trisodium-Phosphat...=item414b3cf6d1
Boric acid here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-lb-Tech-Grade-Granul...=item35a65a91fb
Ozonator:
http://www.amazon.com/Spa-109-Hot-Ozonator...9340&sr=8-5
Spa Flush:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Spa-System-Flush-2-PAC...=item4ce81d4d17
Enzyme solution:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Leisure-Time-Spa-Hot-T...=item27af21f930
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As I understand it, Nature2 puts silver into the spa water. I have two questions:
1. Can I purchase silver in liquid or powder form and add it in exact amounts?
2. What other metals are in the Nature2 device besides silver?
Very High Ph
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
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The city does not include PH in their report. I have PH calibration fluid to calibrate the meter.
Here is the meter:
http://www.amazon.com/HM-Digital-PH-200-Wa...2944&sr=8-1
I'll test against a std color test to see if the calibration fluid is off.