DK117
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Posts
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Posts posted by DK117
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Hello Gentlemen, it's been a while. I finally asked the webmaster to reset my password so I could grace you all with an annual update. I've been pretty lazy with my water chemistry resulting in a seized pump needing to be rebuilt last year. My EZ coverlifter rusted in half. Overall my 2009 "Costco" tub is running like a champ. I've never had a problem with it.
There was a lot of bravado on this site in 2009 about the junk coming from Costco. Does one tub refute those opinions? Of course not. Were those opinions dead wrong in my case? Yes.
Happy Tubbing.
DK117
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I almost missed my year 5 update. In short all is well. I purchased a new cover this year. I'd like to get new headrests but mostly for cosmetic reasons. One of my rotating jets seems to have gone bad, but that was free from Chad at Strong years ago. I don't think I've opened the cabinet this year.
Not much to report. I'm enjoying my tub a lot less frequently than year 1 and 2. I'll have to look around for the new chemicals brand name, but I stopped using Dichlor then bleach and while more expensive I am now maybe once a week with messing with it.
While absolutely of no statistical relevance, I'm 5 years in with no problems on my Strong from Costco. Still happy with my purchase. Looks like the current version of my spa, while not a perfect match is either $1500 to $2000 more at Costco today. Maybe I got what I paid for, maybe I got a good deal as Strong (evolution) entered the market with Costco.
Enjoy your tubs!
DK117
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hmm, my 2012 update post deleted, but I'll give my one and only 2013 post a try. I almost forgot about this site and it took me two days to remember my password.
Anyway a few weeks ago I passed 4 years, no issues. I don't use my tub as much as when it first arrived, but it's still running like a champ.
See you next year.
DK117
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Well thanks for asking, my CSXi80 from Costco is doing just fine thank you. Three years no issues. See you all next year.
DK117
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again, I don't think I'm really qualified to do the stare and compare but spec sheets should be comparable.
Strong
Dimensions: 91 x 91 x 36"
Gallons: 400
Seats: 6-7
Marquis
Exterior Dimensions: 84" x 84" x 34"
Water capacity: 350 gallons
Capacity/seating: 5/6
I'll be the first to admit that the Strong wouldn't be comfortable with 6 or 7 people, but the water capacity, is that a big deal, 14% more capacity?
I'm also going to have to go to Arf on this one, more servicable design Marquis wins?
I'm thinking we won't find the perfect like to like spec sheet.
DK117
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Marquis 545 showroom price incl average delivery, steps, cover lift, chems, $5995.00
Guru, thanks for taking the time to put this together. I've never seen a Marquis, so I'll have to take your word for your line item assessment. I do feel there are several opinion statements vs like for like, but again until I learn more, I have to accept your assessment.
I do have a friend with an Arctic Cub that they got through the dealer, but during the County Fair at $6500. I know there are decent dealer tubs out there in that range, normally on "sale."
So I'll turn to a question that we don't talk much about. What is "showroom price?" Is this a sale price, a floor model? Costco.com has sales too, but I can guarantee everyone in the domestic US gets the exact same price on any given day for a Costco sold spa. No negotiations. I hope this isn't deemed as going too off topic, but I don't think you insiders here undertand how unpleasant the dealer experience is for a new tub buyer. It's really impossible to overstate that point. The ease of purchase is worth hundreds of dollars.
So before we get too far into the like for like (is that a lounger?) Is there any way to verify your $5995 claim?
thanks again.
DK117
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DK117 - As I recall, you have been pretty happy with your tub so far, so that would seem to be the main criterion.
Although you asked for input from experts, which I am not, I will chime in anyway. There was a mini-discussion in another thread about the controller - budget vs high end. Personally I favor simplicity over advanced capabilities, and usually the simpler controls have an additional benefit of being less expensive to replace should it become necessary. I do not know if it holds true with tub controllers that simplicity results in better reliability, but it sure seems that way with many other products. Anyway, my point is that the controller appears to be a rather simple, intuitive controller to operate, certainly for the most common functions. Some of the more sophisticated controls I have seem on some tubs put me off a bit and the fetures that they provide do not, to me, seem to be worth the trade off.
If Strong called me and said "Spawn, we would love to make a tub for you, what is the one change we could make to make it more appealling for you?" I would say "Take out all of the bullet jets, eliminate one pump and lower the price accordingly - opps, sorry for mentioning more than one thing." I realize that others may not be interested in such a tub but...
Spawn, thanks. I'm mostly avoiding the other thread, we'll see where it goes.
In response to your post here, I'll just add, that the "Option" button doesn't even do anything on this tub
Finally, anyone can post in this thread. Guru and I happened to PM about it, and I assumed some of the other pro's would want to chime in as well. If not we can go back to the other thread(s). I was/am hoping this one might be more enlightening, but if if feels self serving to some people, I'm ok I can move on.
DK117
PS there were a few one pump Strongs that were sub $4K. Costco doesn't seem to cary those any more, the one pump tubs are now up to $5K. Ultimately this thread might be moot as the Strong/Costco tubs are getting more features and higher prices, I saw one at $8500 the other day, but it's gone now. Not much use in a lot of this discussion if Strong/Costco isn't sub $5K.
edit: something odd on the Costco website tubs I can now find one of the $4k ones
Evolution Spas™ Mediterranean 50-jet, 6-person Lounger Spa
still mostly bullets though.
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cabiniet thickness. That's a tough one to answer as it is variable. Yes the panels (of which there are 8) are about 2 inches. The rest of the sides are about 3 inches, the sides close to the base and shell is 4 inches. I don't know if that helps clarify or not.
DK117
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Ok, question, what does the spa shell not including the cabinet measure across?
I just want to do a side by side feature comparison.
Also, what was the purchase price, including cover, steps, and what it cost to be delivered to your back yard?
I seem to be in zone 8 or 9. Hard to tell from the picture but temps are rarely below the 30's and almost never in the teens, maybe a few days a year. I've been told it is irresponsible to make engergy usage comments without metering my tub, so I won't make specific claims. But I will say that in this mild weather zone, and with kWh being about $.07 two years ago, I just now learned we're now at $.0816. Regardless, I haven't noticed the electrical bill going crazy in the last two years.
If I understand you correctly, I'm ok with flex-inside-rigid construction.
I paid $4799 for this tub. Including cover, steps. I paid $300 to move to the back yard, judging from other owners experiences I was ripped off. They paid from zero to $150. Totally dependent on the driver/moving company, plus access to the tub's final location.
Your measurement question is a good one, I think others have commented that this 7 foot tub feels smaller than other 7 foot tubs. Measurement you requested is 84 inches. I've never had more than 4 people in the tub at one time.
Don't worry about hatin' my tub, I'm not. Good conversation thus far, thanks.
DK117
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I'm going post hot_water's spec sheet. Please either respond here or PM me with updates, additions or corrections. I'll continue to edit this post until we have a complete sheet.
The CSXi80 has:
* Balboa VS series controller. Standard heater (not titanium)
* Waterway Executive 56 pumps (2) with the AO Smith 12A, 2 speed motors
* Continuous cast acrylic shell with acrylobond backing
* Polyethylene cabinet, rotomolded in several pieces and assembled with stainless steel screws. No frame - wood or metal - at all. Tool-less access, 8 total removable panels (2 per side).
*Full ABS plastic bottom
*50 sq ft filter (pleatco supplied w/ spa)
*80 waterway (marked MADE IN USA) jets. 60 "bullet jets"
DK117
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How many real jets and how many bullet jets? Looks to be about 60 or so bullets.
And I wonder what the therory is with the jets that you sit on? That has to be kind of uncomfortable hitting the underside of your legs like that with no way to shut them off. Do you have to move your legs so they fit inbetween the little bullets. Ouch, those make me itch right away.
And that has to be the ugliest cabinet I have ever seen! But I am a wood guy, or quality fake wood. To each his own I guess.
I think they are all technically real jets, but yes, 60 of the 80 are bullets.
the ones you sit on, I have turned down to the lowest setting just short of closed/off. It can provide a good massage to the hamstrings if needed, but I'd agree with your assessment, not ideal placement.
Aesthetically, yes, each to their own on the cabinet. I'm a wood guy too, maple hardwoods throughout our home, custom alder cabinets. However, outdoors I ditched the wood deck for concrete pavers, and my pet peeve is warped, rotten, and discolored wood spa cabinets. Having seen pictures of Strong's new faux wood cabinets, I prefer that look. But the faux stack stone goes well with the surroundings at my place. Bottom line, lifetime guarantee on the cabinet. Not sure if that will sway your aesthetics, but in my opinion it's one of the bigger selling points for this spa.
DK117
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Where is the insulation?
Are their foam panels or something you removed?
perimeter insulation. Evidently similar to Arctic or at least same in theory. The only insulation is some foam towards the bottom of the shell, almost looks structural as in holding things in place vs insulation. I've removed nothing but the panel
Panel removed.
DK117
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I thought it would be interesting to have the experts provide the pluses and minuses of the Strong CSXi80 based upon a "visual" inspection." I'll post any pictures requested.
This is a 2 year old Evolution (Strong) CSXi80 purchased via Costco.com
Original cover was taking on water, Strong replaced cover (not the core) at 1 year.
Jets in the right middle chair were swapped out for rotating massage jets, neck jets swapped out and turned off.
Edge of Spa Shell
Please post your impressions/comments. Maybe I'll learn a thing or two about my tub.
DK117
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Spa brands come and go out of Costco all the time, Strong is just the "saveur du jour".
If you want for me to respond specifically to the brand you have, then with your volouminous research, you should be able to answer my questions, because, yes, believe it or not, I'm trying to be helpful.
What I am not here to do is validate your decision. If you have no idea the brand of pump, the style of shell manufacture, the makers of the mother board, brand of jets etc are, you essentially only know your spa's model name.
You seem to be basing your purchase decision on Costco, not on in depth knowledge of the product.
By knowledge, I don't mean reviews and opinions, I mean facts.
I posted in detail the differing decisions a manufacturer must make, how does your tub rate on these criteria?
A quick Google search provides me with the specs, I mean facts, for my spa, it doesn't make me any smarter. How many times must I say that this is my first tub, that all the pro's here have vast and vo·lu·mi·nous knowledge on a subject that I have little. And honesty Guru, I'm not asking for you to do a review of my tub (why did you want pictures?) I think it might be an interesting exercise, but my intention was for us to be a bit more specific when discussing the various tubs that Costco sells.
I do think you have an accurate assessment of my purchase decision. After experiencing less than positive impressions at Arctic and Hot Springs, then inadvertently attending a Master roadshow ... and quite a bit of sticker shock ... well I had a long standing relationship with Costco, I purchased from Costco as a dealer knowing that a close family friend returned a spa to Costco the previous summer (different manufacturer.)
Do I want you to validate my decision, no. But even you have acknowledged that in some situations "a Costco tub might be an ok choice."
Finally, how does my tub rate on your criteria? I'm not sure, the little information that has been transferred to me in the last two years on this forum is that only time will tell. Evidently I need to have a trouble free tub for at least 4 or 5 years before I can offer any facts or educated opinion. I'm ok with that, at least I paid a lower markup than with a local dealer, that's a fact.
DK117
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DK, there are two mark ups, the factory one, and the dealer, whether that dealer is mom & pop or Costco.
I posted at some length some of the differences you can find in spa manufacture that make differences in quality.
No dealer will carry a line which is carried by Costco, unless the dealer ALSO gets a piece of it, and the dealer writes off the loss as advertising cost thru a factory co-op program.
To show you the difference between your spa and a premium one, I would need to see photos of the equipment, a photo of the edge of the spa shell, your insulation, your base, and your structure.
What was the shipping weight of your spa?
two markups, fine, purchase in bulk sell in volume and both will be lower.
I get the odd impression that you're trying to help. But I just don't comprehend your angle. Are you now saying that you've never seen a Strong? You want photos of my equipment bay? I had to go to costco.com and assuming my tub is the same as the current offerings, it's 950 lbs dry. I'd ask that you please be as concise as possible and avoid combining Costco sucks (Costco doesn't manufacture hot tubs but they have a quite successful business model) and all hot tubs sold by Costco suck. They sell more than just Strong. Also, while I've never been to one, Strong does have dealers, my Coscto Model CSXi80 is very, very similar to the Vienna (so similar in fact that the packaging said Vienna, not Evo Spa's CSXi80.) I'm going to take a breather, I'm getting bored, and we're totally off topic.
DK117
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You have three identical tubs:
Tub #1 Tub one is sold by your standard mom and pop spa dealer that sells under 50 tubs a year, and has other business at that location, billiards, pool, fireplace, and BBQ's for my local dealers.
Tub #2 Sold by Bob's Spa Emporium, which does 50 plus tubs a month.
Tub #3 is Sold by a big box store, factory direct.
For the question at hand wet test is irrelevant, service is irrelevant, quality is irrelevant as they are the same three tubs.
How do you rank the three in terms of markup? Don't let the question get derailed, it's what you wanted to know in the first place and I think the answer is fairly obvious.
DK117
Your assumption is that they are identical tubs, which is not the case. The example is invalid.
ugh, you and I aren't going to get very far are we?
But you've proven my point, you're not really willing to discuss the fact that Costco has lower mark up. So what should we talk about? The OP asks about dealer mark up, and you want to talk about hydrotherapy and spa quality. Both interesting topics, but doesn't really get to the point that dealers have a very large markup that some of us find unpalatable. And we'll all go on pretending that we didn't see the invoices posted for a Hot Springs dealer that were taken down within a few hours of being posted (prior to your arrival here Guru, over a year ago.) I do thank you for attempting to answer the OP in response 12. It's when Arf mentioned big box in response #15 that we all jumped in and things got silly.DK117
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While I would state that ANY big box store has better purchasing power and lower overhead than a
"mom and pop" store, selling almost any product, - mom and pops scream bloody murder when Walmart moves to town - I was really hoping this thread would not restart the Costco and Evolution debate, which was why I was trying to gather more generic information.
Lets (at least try) to go with your comment above "You know what it costs to make a low end 7 ft spa? About $1500 before shipping. "
lets not get into the engineering man hours, as that discussion will get nowhere fast...At a wholesale parts level, I'm just not seeing much difference in cost of a low end tub ($1500 according to poster) and a high end tub? low end controller $200, high end $400? Low end pump $100, high end $200? There seem to be a few people on this forum who are familiar with parts costs, so if a low end tub costs $1500 to build, talk me thru why a high end tub should cost more than $2500 to build? lets not get into stereos and other optional extras...
Arf, I don't think this is off topic, but I understand why you'd want to shy away from another Costco debate. Here's the deal, lets see if we can actually answer the original question without talking about quality. Just hear me out.
You have three identical tubs:
Tub #1 Tub one is sold by your standard mom and pop spa dealer that sells under 50 tubs a year, and has other business at that location, billiards, pool, fireplace, and BBQ's for my local dealers.
Tub #2 Sold by Bob's Spa Emporium, which does 50 plus tubs a month.
Tub #3 is Sold by a big box store, factory direct.
For the question at hand wet test is irrelevant, service is irrelevant, quality is irrelevant as they are the same three tubs.
How do you rank the three in terms of markup? Don't let the question get derailed, it's what you wanted to know in the first place and I think the answer is fairly obvious.
DK117
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Do you really believe Costco has the same margin as a local dealer? That completely ignores economies of scale and the entire reason big box stores exist and thrive. If you don't like the tubs Costco sells, that's fine, just say so. Point out the lack of dealer support and the lack of wet test. I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I promised to play nice, but saying that Costco has the same margin as a local dealer is just absurd.
As far as the face to face time, I guarantee you that I spend more time face to face at my local Costco than your average spa owner spends at the billiards/fireplace/pool/spa dealership.
DK117
That is not what I said.
The total percentage markup MANUFACTURER to PURCHASER is still there.
As for your face to face time, go to Costco and ask a chemical question, or ask for help programming your controller.
You know what it costs to make a low end 7 ft spa? About $1500 before shipping.
Wow, so now Costco has a 300% markup on Spas? Fascinating. I'll cut up my Executive Membership card right away.
DK117
PS, if we can't agree that Costco's size affords them purchasing power (bulk) and operates on slimmer margins (though volume) than a local mom and pops, then we're just going to have to move on.
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Like I said, any dealer fool enough to sell for less than a 40% margin isn't going to be around to service them, and as for big box stores, make no mistake, the markup is still there, just not the quality, they don't have to care as much about quality when you will never see them face to face.
Do you really believe Costco has the same margin as a local dealer? That completely ignores economies of scale and the entire reason big box stores exist and thrive. If you don't like the tubs Costco sells, that's fine, just say so. Point out the lack of dealer support and the lack of wet test. I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I promised to play nice, but saying that Costco has the same margin as a local dealer is just absurd.
As far as the face to face time, I guarantee you that I spend more time face to face at my local Costco than your average spa owner spends at the billiards/fireplace/pool/spa dealership.
DK117
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I am a new hot tub owner. I have known for a long time I wanted one after sitting in friends hot tubs numerous times. I lurked here for over a year prior to buying one, knowing full well what it entails to upkeep. I would say do your research, but unless you are absolutely sure you want one, don't buy one. These are not a novelty and they require attention. Unless you are passionate about using it, and recognize the benefits, then it will be on Craig's list soon. (for less than half price) As far as lights, I like them. Not over kill but I would not buy a tub with no lights. They set a nice mood. No need for a million of them. Water fall? Not needed at all, especially the ones that shoot into the tub causing a mess and nuisance. I have a water feature that adds a nice sound under a light that is a very nice feature. Not in the way at all and offers a nice soothing sound and can be turned off totally. I like it and am very glad I have it. Stereo? Complete waste of money IMO. Buy a nice boom box and avoid the hassle of trouble. Listen to the people here, they will steer you straight. They don't all agree but I have learned they are all here to help. Look at their post records and pay attention to the ones who have been here, all good people wanting to help. Bottom line if you want a tub then research and more research, then if you still want one, go buy one. I love mine.
great post. For what it's worth, being that I don't value the "therapeutic" nature of tubs like others do, I do value the lights very highly and the water feature (waterfall) is a really nice to have option.
DK117
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You don't know if you're a hot tub person. 2.5 years ago I was in the same boat. I spoke with a few local dealers, went to one of the road shows, pursued several craigslist adds and finally settled on a Costco/Strong. Sometimes I'm not in the tub more than once a week. Sometimes it's 5 times a week. I couldn't/can't justify 10K for a warm water patio decoration. I've no physical therapy needs. I'm very happy with my decision/purchase. I can't see going top of the line for your first tub. So that's my biggest reason to not get a tub. The last thing you want to do is sit in the tub regretting all the other things you could have done with the money.
DK117
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We live in a relatively mild climate and enjoy NOT having a roof. During the rare snowfall - once a twice per year - it is a special treat to use the tub. Living in Rochester NY is a different matter, perhaps. Don't you get three or four feet of snow in the winter? I defer to those who live in a similar climate.
+1 Mild climate, love the rare snow. Couldn't imagine covering. Hard rain is the only thing that keeps us out of the tub, and that does happen frequently in the Pacific Northwest, but wait 15 minutes and it will be fine.
Good call on all the posts about this being an opinion call. Add in the climate and distance to and from the house, and every persons situation is slightly different.
DK117
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yes very frustrating. Just get rid of the beta in your URL, no waterfall adds and no being kicked out.
bad
http://www.poolspaforum.com/beta/forum/index.php
good
http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php
DK117
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Nice looking spa!
When posting there's an icon, two right of the smiley face, click that, it will give you the opportunity to paste your image URL from photobucket.com and will display the image for you.
DK117
First Hot Tub Purchase - Advise Please?
in Portable Hot Tubs & Spas
Posted
wow this forum is basically dead compared to what it used to be. Save yourself some time and money, purchase via Costco. 8 years in with no complaints, looks like the day I bought it.
DK117