Wannago

I just confirmed with a CANADIAN eledtrician who specializes in hot tubs. The bare copper ground is acceptable to use from the GFCI to the spa - and does not need to be insulated (green). The 6-3 NMWU cable in my scenario is also acceptable.

Thanks John, I really do appreciate your input...I will definitely follow-up on this...

I do have a buddy that is an electrician. I called and spoke with him, and he assured me I am fine. He says THHN is not a good product when exposed to cold temps, as the thinner insulation can tend to crack. He did a bunch of calculations, cited table 2, table 19, etc. etc.some of which I understood - others he lost me on, but basically he told me that for my run of 30 metres (actually less than that), with a max current draw of 45 amps (from the Jacuzzi manual), with the #6 wire, I am incurring a 2% voltage drop, which he said is very good. He does not see the benefit to using a #4, considering the larger size and the difficulties attaching to the lugs. He is not aware of anything that precludes the use of the bare copper ground, but does admit that he is not the most experienced with hot tub installs. I have also come across a pdf document produced by a Canadian electrician, describing how to wire a hot tub, and in his illustrations / photos, he uses a bare copper ground, so it appears as though the bare copper ground is fine. Once again, I will double check with my dealer on this though.

Thanks all. John, actually I am in Canada. The wire (cable) I used is NMWU (Non-Metallic Waterproof Underground - I think?). The local Home Depot doesn't even have a #6 awg with an insulated (green) ground, so I am assuming up here in the great white north, bare copper grounds are acceptable. Will confirm though... Total wire run from main panel to sub panel is about 60', and about 20' from the sub panel to the hot tub. For what it's worth, here are a few pics....go easy now, remember - I'm not an electrician

I have done all the wiring in preparation for the delivery of our new J-480. As I am using a 60 amp service, I have upgraded my existing hot tub wiring (which was a 40 amp, 8-3 wire service), to the 60 amp service by swapping out the 40 amp main panel breaker for a 60 amp breaker, and replacing the old 8-3 wire with 6-3 wire. As well, I have thrown out my old sub panel, and replaced it with a new Schneider Electric - Square D 60 amp Hot Tub/Pool/Spa sub-panel from Home Depot. The sub panel breaker is a Square D, 2 Wire 240Vac, 60 amp 2 Pole QO GFCI The wiring from the main panel to the sub panel is pretty basic: 2 hots (red & black), a neutral (white), and a bare copper ground. The red and black go to the standard "ins" on the GFCI, the white connects to the neutral bus (also connected to the white pigtail from the GFCI), and the bare copper connects to a separate ground bus. I am not an electrician, but am confident this is done properly. My question is regarding the feed from the sub panel (GFCI) to the hot tub service panel. Looking at the online Jacuzzi User Manual, it shows that there are only 3 wires running from the GFCI to the hot tub service panel: the red, the black, and the bare copper ground (AKA "green" wire - however it is my understanding that this is just the ground, which is sometimes insulated in a green jacket, but it is the same thing as the bare copper ground wire I have). According to the Jacuzzi manual, there is no white wire running from the GFCI to the hot tub service panel. Looking at the "out" side of the GFCI, there isn't even a hole where the white output wire could connect to. Does this sound right to you experts? No white wire from the GFCI to the Jacuzzi 480 panel - only black, red, and a ground? Naturally I will confirm with my local dealer, but I wanted to ask here to see if this is correct as well. Thanks

sorry to hi-jack, but the picture shows 2 hoses running to the jet housing. For my own education, is this normal? Why 2 hoses?

pic didn't work

Update.... So, I followed up on the rural dealer's offer, and it was indeed legitimate....5K cheaper than the price here in the city. The only snag was that my wife and I ultimately decided that this particular model was not right for us. The rural dealer had a blem'd Sarena Bay for a very decent price as well, and I was very seriously considering that, however after more careful review, the Sarena Bay would be a bit too big for our site/yard. It's 10 feet long! Regarding the warranty / service issues, I was assured that any problems I might encounter would be taken care of, and I would have been comfortable had I dealt with the rural dealer. We went back to the Jacuzzi shop and I ended up buying a J-480; a beautiful tub - "fully loaded": stone cabinet, exterior accent lighting, J-1000 stereo, cover, cover mate III, and all the usual goodies. I got it for 1000.00 less than the local dealer quoted me for a Lotus Bay, so I feel I did pretty good (still a sh!tload of cash though!) Hopefully it serves us well for many years... Should be delivered next weekend, so now its time to upgrade to the 60 amp service. Thanks to all for your comments and feedback.

As a consumer about to buy a new tub, I keep seeing the "energy efficiency champ" mentioned with respect to the HS line. Is there any data to support this? I mean, showing HS's energy stats is one thing, but has anyone ever, scientifically, in a controlled environment, directly compared an HS tub to any of its direct competitors under the exact same conditions? That's the only way you would be able to accurately say one is more efficient that the other. Plus, there are other factors as well. Say the HS is 5 dollars/month cheaper on my electricity bill over "brand x", but one thing that concerned me with the HS tubs I was looking at, was the fact that it used 5 filters. Having to replace all 5 of those even once / year vs a tub with 2 filters could negate the whole energy savings advantage. I am confident that the couple brands that I have it narrowed down to are all essentially the same with respect to energy consumption. I will be basing my decision on the brain, butt, wallet.

Bunk. If anything, you would more exposed surface area with an exposed pad than you would with a stamped. Typically, you would have a sealer applied to both styles as well. It won't be an issue, go with whatever style you prefer. Doing stamped concrete finishing is more involved/difficult than doing exposed, and my guess is that the contractor telling you this isn't comfortable / doesn't like doing stamped, but "anybody" can do exposed.

I am currently shopping, and have looked at the HS line. They certainly seem to be a quality product with a very good reputation. The no bypass filtration, for me, was nice, but is not essential. The only thing that raised a flag with me was in order to be able to keep filtering water with all the pumps running, they use 5 filters. Cleaning 5 filters could be a considerable chore, and replacing 5 filters could be a considerable expense. Other than that, the HS seemed like a nice tub. Haven't looked at any BC's yet.

Ok...maybe "gouging" isn't the correct term...but to me, it seemed apropos. Again, to your point, I CAN obviously get it cheaper somewhere else...apparently if I am willing to accept the fact that I may have to sacrifice warranty / service. I'm not sure how long the rural dealer has been in business, but they have been carrying D1 spas for 17 years. The city dealer is a huge appliance store, been in business for over 30 years - not sure how long they have been carrying hot tubs or D1 spas. I am comfortable that my warranty will be honored no matter which dealer I buy from. Ideally, I could buy form the rural guy, and be serviced by the city guy, although that very well may not be the way it goes. Burger King does not provide a specific warranty on their burgers, at least I have never seen their warranty. It is well known that customer satisfaction is their number one priority. But I do agree with reeffreak's response to your BK question and know that if you felt strongly enough about the screw up made by another BK restaurant in another town, your local restaurant would make you whole. I really don't think you can accurately compare the customer service focus entrenched in the fast food industry with the hot tub industry. A restaurant WILL take a loss if required for the sake of customer satisfaction / service, to defend their brand. Either way I go, I am confident that my warranty issues will be addressed, one way or another. I still have some more legwork to do..and if this gets too messy, I will just walk away from the D1 brand completely and buy something else.

ummmmmmmm, you really don't get? Ok, so lets say the manufacture doubles what they pay for warranty work. You do realize this wouldn't have ANY effect on the price you pay for the spa? No, obviously not. I'll splain it fer ya. First off, a warranty is NOT free to you. YOU PAY FOR IT! It's figured into the price of the spa. Ok, so lets say the manufacturer pays double the current rate for warranty work. Now the dealer doesn't need to add in any upfront costs for possible warranty work, and drops his price, say $300. But, the manufacturer is now PAYING out more for warranty work, so they raise the wholsale cost of the spa $300......... the spa's ghonna cost YOU the same exact $'s No, I think I do understand. I do realize that the price I pay also pays for my warranty, and the vicious circle you described. Given the price differences I have found at my rural dealer, I came on here and asked for comments, primarily asking about the warranty thing. I received plenty of helpful feedback: Anyone else sensing a theme here? Owing to the above, it was made blatantly clear to me that the primary reason why I should not expect my local dealer to support me with my tub that I bought somewhere else, is that he is losing money with each and every service call he makes to me. How am I doing so far? Also, you quoted me out of context. I suggested that if the manufacturer could somehow address the money-losing nature of warranty support, OR address the price gouging, my current issue would pretty much be resolved. However, I also realize that addressing this from the warranty reimbursement perspective is not feasible for a multitude of reasons, including your above example. What is more doable is retail price control. I don't think you would disagree that the price difference here is significant. I KNOW each of you would feel the same way I do if you were looking at purchasing something like this and had the opportunity to save this amount of money. It simply shouldn't happen. I get the impression that most dealers in here probably feel that this rural dealer should be shot and pissed on, and their membership to the secret brotherhood of hot tub dealers be revoked - how dare they break "the code" and sell at these prices! If the manufacturers set more rigid pricing guidelines, this whole thing wouldn't even be an issue. I think that was essentially the point reefreak was making in his first post, as he appears to be far better versed in this type of stuff than I. If I could buy here locally for anywhere near what I can buy it for at the other dealer, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I'm just a guy who doesn't mind spending a decent buck for a decent product. At the same time, I don't like being ripped off. Knowing what I know now, if I bought locally at the original quoted price, I would be getting ripped off. Plain and simple. Tanks fer 'splainin' it to me doh!

I think that's what I intend to do. I know I can sound quite obstinate, but I was just trying to make the point, and highlight the real reason why the local guy would be reluctant to honor my warranty. While you guys did clarify the costs and logistics associated with a warranty call - any warranty call, the real reason, in my scenario, would be based on a more "personal" motive. I DO understand it, and wish the manufacturers would somehow get more involved or do things differently to either address the warranty expenses/issues, or the price gouging issues. I am confident I will be taken care of, no matter which dealer I buy from. One dealer (per brand) per city is the root of this. I bought my car from a nearby dealer, but take it to another dealer in another part of the city for warranty work, simply because I like them better. It should be the same with tubs. If I were a dealer, I would probably feel the same way. Still isn't right though.

meh...I see it differently. It would cost this "new" dealer no more money at all to provide service to me, who bought from 2 hours away (for whatever reason...let's just go with "for a much cheaper price"), than it would for this same dealer to provide service to an owner who moved in from another province. There is absolutely no difference at all, other than a word I used earlier...SPITE. And...as previously clarified to me "Like many spa companies, D1 is starving for dealers. They aren't going to cancel a dealer's contract if they refuse to perform service on your spa." That said, if D1 (or anyone else) wouldn't cancel the dealerhsip for not honoring MY warranty, simply put, because I didn't buy from them, I would hardly think they would cancel the dealership for not honoring the warranty on any other customer's tub who didn't buy from them. It's the same thing. You might argue that it is just morally wrong of me to pull such a sleazeball move on my local dealer. However, what is more sleazier....charging an exhorbitant amount higher than a dealer less than 2 hours away, or simply trying to be a somewhat thirfty consumer, buying a very expensive appliance, in the middle of a recession? ?

That is a totally different scenario as you stated yourself. In that case you can call the manufacturer after your move or find the new local dealer where you move to and you should have no problem getting warranty service. But spatech, as stressed in the previous posts, the new local dealer is in no way obligated to provide warranty service, as they did not sell this tub. Since providing warranty service is such a money-losing venture, which is why dealers NEED to build in such high profit margins, I would expect that he WOULD have a hard time getting warranty support from this dealer??

Most likely wouldn't be a critter, but more a "creepy crawly".... A little dab of silicone sealant or a touch of spray foam (touch!) would seal that up for ya.

I'be careful showing your wife this post....about her needing a "nice and wide" seat... Good idea though, I'll be sure to keep that in mind if I never need a booster seat.

My local big-city dealer wants 17 bucks for a duck thermometer, when I can buy it from a rural dealer for 12!! What's up with that!!!!!????? They're the exact same duck! hahahaha EDIT: Dan...just how is it that you can confirm this was a marijuana pipe?

Thanks again, both of you. You raised some very salient points that I would never have thought of. Let me check my lotto tickets...I'd love to open up my own hot tub mega-store and emporium, carrying all the major brands, competing directly and fiercely with the local boys. They'd have quite the wake-up call. They'd either have to make some serious price adjustments, or they'd be quickly out of business. I can see it all now....my mega-store and emporium attracting all the local customers who would praise me for finally bringing reality into the local hot tub scene and bringing warm soothing completely chemical free water to the masses. Bubbles for everyone! Then, as one by one, the existing "gougers" closed their doors, either unable or unwilling to compete with my unheard and industry shaking fair pricing policy, I would be counting my millions as they effortlessly rolled in. Then, once I had complete control, and once no one else in the city was selling what I was selling, I could up the prices, as I would have a complete monopoly. 100% - 200% - 300% markup!! Muhahahah, the city would be my oyster. Wait a minute....I've already become a dealer...one of "them"! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Thanks Markee. Assuming what you are saying is correct, then D1 is automatically out of the running for me - plain and simple. Ok...2 people have now said that if a non-dealer has to work on my spa, they lose money...can someone please explain exactly how and why? How do they actually LOSE money? Does D1 not reimburse them for any parts they have to replace? Does D1 not pay for the technician's time to perform the warranty work? This must be the case in order for them to actually LOSE money. OR...by lose money, are you saying that instead of being able to charge $200.00/hr, D1 only reimburses them at a lower rate, say $50/hr, and therefore, the dealer feels they are losing $150.00/hr to perform this "alien" service? Honestly, I am not in the retail business, and don't know how this works. Also, if what your saying is true, then there is no obligation on behalf of even my LOCAL dealer to provide warranty coverage or service my tub, even if I DO buy from them at a ridiculous price? If they don't treat me right, from what you said, I will have no recourse. D1 is starving for dealers, so they aren't going to threaten to pull this dealership just because I am not a happy camper, are they? From seeing their prices, they are all about profit, so I would totally expect them to try to screw me on warranty too, as they would only be losing money - cutting into their profits, each and every time they had to service me. "Loss of income"...sorry Markee, but I spit out my drink when I read that. After learning what I have learned, "loss of income" in a term that simply doesn't belong in a discussion regarding this industry. Oh they make up for it upfront on the sale alright...in spades! The figures I am quoting, by the way, are not being pulled out of my hat, but , whatever... There is no maybe about it, our D1 dealer definitely wants ridiculous prices. With all due respect, I have to disagree that most spa dealers are lucky to make a 5%-10% margin on their tubs. If my rural dealer will sell me a tub for 12K, that I apparently AM FORCED TO PAY 17K for here in the city (IF I want a warranty), I would think they are making money on it - aren't they? Perhaps THEY are making 5-10%. Do the math, how much profit would the city dealer be getting then? I'd love to see a dealer invoice, showing exactly what the dealer paid on the spa compared to what they sell for...but that will never happen. There just so happens to be a local dealer in town who, for years, has always parked his nice shiny new Ferrari's out front of his shop. This guy is a known crook and has been investigated for his past business practices, has been slammed by BBB complaints, etc. Somehow he just keeps on going. I have often wondered exactly how he always managed to drive such a nice new car all the time, wondering if perhaps he just came from a rich family. NOW I know....he is in the hot tub industry in a big prospering city, where for every informed and educated consumer who bypasses his shop, there are 2 others who don't know better. This seems to apply to all the dealers in this city. We also have several dealers located in a very close proximity - you could park and walk to 5-6 different shops. Everyone seems to be in the same price range as the D1 dealer, for their top of the line tubs, however, it is clear that not all the top of the line tubs are of equal calibre. It looks like a city-wide, greed-inspired cash grabbing feeding frenzy exists, perhaps sparked by our recent very strong local economy, which, by the way, is over everyone! We are in a recession now!!! I mean, I know you are in business to make a buck, so is my Company. My Company would be out of business we tried to make even anywhere near the type of profit margin the local D1 dealer is asking (and getting - apparently). Profit is one thing...but this is ridiculous. It would appear that D1 and likely every other manufacturer support and even encourage this practice. Hey D1...let this rural dealer open a satellite store in my city...please??? I had recently been ready to purchase a Jacuzzi J-480, as the price I was given, I felt, gave me better bang for my buck than the D1. Of course, if I can buy a D1 for 5K cheaper than what I was originally being gouged for, I'd snap up the D1. Once I look into this purchase further, and if what you are saying about warranty is correct, D1 will be nothing but a distant memory of a huge 5K mistake I almost made. It appears that what reeffreak said is becoming more and more relevant with each new post. Sad but true. Hottubdan and Peteyboy, Thanks as well. I expect I will do just that. Once I follow-up and confirm that what I have been offered is in fact legitimate (in writing), I will approach the local dealer and be up front with him. I know he won't match the price, simply because as I said, there is no need for him to. This is a big city and there are lots of other customers who will pay his price. And he is free to make that call, just like I am free to opt not to deal with him. I also know he will not agree to service my tub, and again, understand his position even though I completely disagree with it. Who knows, perhaps he won't match this price but may offer a much better price that appeals to me...we'll see. I know I tend to get up on my soapbox, but I really do see the dealer's perspective, and if I was a dealer, I would see it the same way. As I previously said, if this was even a difference of 1000.00, I wouldn't even be considering it, but this is a huge difference, so I just can't seem to "suck it up" and write this other offer off. This has really taken the excitement out of buying this new tub. If I were to buy the D1 from the local dealer, every time I hopped in it, "relaxation" would be the furthest thing from my mind - I know I would dwell on how I "could have" got it for 5K less. I think it is safe to say that D1 has lost a potential customer, as I fully expect that for me to not spend the extra 5K, I will have to rely on my rural dealer for service, and given our winters and the distance, I am not comfortable with that.

Dan, With all due respect, I disagree with your comments. Obviously I have the consumer mindset, and you must have a dealer mindset, because I knew exactly where reeffreak is coming from. Firstly, everything I have seen in my current spa search supports reeffreak's comments. Where I live, the majority of dealers are akin to the stereotypical used car salesman, although I have to admit that I have encountered a couple that aren't. Just my luck, but those dealer's tubs did not strike my fancy. Reefreak's description applying to only 5% of the dealers?...no way....perhaps the other way around, maybe 5% of the dealers I've dealt with really care about their customers and offer a fair and reasonable price. They all go through their sales pitch and you know the pinch is coming...start off with a "regular" price that is 200% markup, then show them how because of a current promotion, the tub has been reduced to 150% profit, then give them a "super special" price, because the boss isn't looking, at only 125% markup...BUT...in order to save this once in a lifetime deal, you need to get a deposit down right away (we take all major credit cards...oh by the way, we also finance), otherwise the price may very well be higher the next time you come in. Sound familiar anyone? Then, service is another issue. They all promise exceptional service and follow-up, but honestly - who really knows what you're gonna get? All you can do is go with a dealer that you are comfortable with and can trust...but in this business, that just may mean you fell victim to the slickest, most polished salesman in the industry, and once the tub leaves on the truck, it is an entirely different story. These forums are full of stories like that. "Retail pricing is established on all of the major manufacturers." Really, how so? I would love to have 2 D1 dealers, or 2 Jacuzzi dealers, etc. in my city. I think you would see a huge difference. As it is, it seems that the manufacturers only allow 1 dealership per geographical location. I understand that to a certain extent. However, doing this only supports "freestyle" pricing. I will use goalie pads as a comparison. For the longest time, you could only buy a certain brand of goalie pad at one shop here in town. Prices were, lets just say, high. Lo and behold, another shop starts carrying the same line, and all of a sudden these pads can be had for a much better price. Competition breeds quality, but if I'm the only "brand X" dealer in town, I am going to charge what I want, and if people want my specific product, they are at my mercy. Given the 5K price difference I have discovered, it sure doesn't appear as though there are any firmly established prices on hot tubs, at least not D1 tubs, but I'm sure it is the same for all makes. Heck, it appears as though I could have even paid 22K for this same tub that I can now buy for 12K, because that is the "regular" price posted on this tub at the city dealership, before the "super special" price reductions. A good example of established retail pricing is the Xbox. No matter where you buy it, the price is always basically the same. There shouldn't be a 5K price difference for 2 identical hot tubs within 2 hours of each other. No way! "If a dealer seem way out of line, or you are uncomfortable with them then just move on." I 100% agree. I am uncomfrortable paying 17K for a tub at my city dealer, but I want a D1 product, so I am going to move on to the rural dealer and buy it for 12K. In my books that makes me a smart consumer. But...we seem to have a potential issue with warranty and service, don't we? Actually, I think it might be called "spite". Perhaps I don't understand how warranty repairs work. It is this layman's opinion that if I have a spa that is covered by a manufacturer's warranty, that an authorized dealership, ANY authorized dealership, should be able to perform warranty work and be compensated by the manufacturer. As such, I don't understand how or why dealer "B" would lose money performing warranty work on a tub that was sold by dealer "A". He wouldn't be fixing it for me "free of charge"...he would be fixing it "free of charge TO ME"....but he would charge the manufacturer and be paid for his services. I assumed it was similar to warranties on cars and like reeffreak's example - motorcycles. A car/bike dealership does not lose money performing warranty work on something they didn't sell...and after all, isn't the warranty a "Dimension One" warranty, or a "Ford" warranty, or a "Harley Davidson" warranty, and not an "Honest Joe's Hot Tubs" warranty? I sincerely hope so, or my hot tub searching has come to an abrupt end. I seem to recall on the D1 site a little video clip about their plastic spa pads. The big pitch is that once you pour cement, it is there permanently, and if you move, you can't take it with you. With the convenient D1 spa pad, when your PORTABLE spa goes with you when you move, so does the spa pad. My point is, clearly these tubs are portable appliances which you can own for many years and take with you from home to home. So, that said, riddle me this: Say I live in Toronto. I go out and pay 17K for this tub to ensure I get the best-est ever service and a warranty from an honset reputable dealer (note the sarcasm). Next year, I get relocated to Ottawa. Are you saying that for the remaining years of my warranty, I am SOL as no dealer in Ottawa is going to service me or honor my warranty, because they would be losing money? If that is the case, I would really like to hear that directly from the manufacturer's reps who frequent this forum, because I think that there are a lot of misguided consumers, like me - people like me who seem to think that you have a manufacturer's warranty that is valid, at any authorized dealer, and you have the comfort of being back by such an established, reputable manufacturer. If my understanding is correct, and "naturally if you move you can have warranty service done in your new city", then honestly, what is the difference if I happen to buy from a dealer in a different city, because I prefer to deal there, for whatever the reason (cheaper prices, terrible local dealer, my cousin owns the remote dealership, the remote dealership includes 1 year of free beer, etc. etc.). If I lived in Toronto, and wanted to buy a tub from Vancouver for any of the above reasons, would that not be my prerogative? Clearly I would have to deal with the logistics/expense of making arrangements to have that tub shipped from Vancouver to Toronto. However, once I had it set up, I should still have the manufacturers warranty, should I not? Perhaps I have this all wrong, and if so, please clarify and help me understand. For me, a relocation to another city is very real possibility. Depending on what my research returns, I seriously may have to reconsider my purchase, as I sure don't want to be without warranty on a 17K (12K) product if I am forced to move to another city. What you have said, indicates that would be the case. By the way, could you please identify which brands you carry / represent. Thanks. Jake, I hear what your saying, and I intend to explore further this claim of sharing the profits with the city dealership. At the same time, and regardless of whether this rural dealer compensates the poor big city dealer who got screwed out of his huge profit, it all boils down to this: a brand new tub for 17K vs a brand new tub for 12K - exact same make, model, manufacturer, from an authorized dealer 2 hours away, both coming with the same MANUFACTURERS warranty. It just doesn't make sense to pay 5K more. Why do I get the impression that only the dealers in here seem to think it makes sense to pay 17K? Honestly, I just don't get it! People I know buy cars from dealers all across the country - cars that they could have bought here, but got a better price elsewhere. Why should a hot tub be any different? Again, this rural dealer is not a flash in the pan and has been is business for a long time. Obviously I will check them out further, probably more so than I would my local dealer. I fully appreciate the need to be cautiously optimistic, and thoroughly check each and every detail (which I intend to), but all things aside, the price difference is evident. Assuming a factory warranty can be claimed at ANY authorized dealer, regardless of place of purchase, this is a no-brainer. Isn't it?

^ Amen brother!

Whoa...why don't you tell me how you REALLY feel? Dr. Spa, a couple things to keep in mind. Firstly, this is not your typical big city hot tub business , nor was the person I spoke with your typical big city salesman. Frankly, I get sick of having to put the "shields on full" with all the big city guys, as they all seem to fit your description completely: "lie, cheat, steal, do illegal things with your dog, etc." and the inevitable pressure for a deposit to "lock in this once in a lifetime price" is both sickening and at the same time, amusingly predictable, but very annoying. The person I dealt with was actually a "mature" lady, she and her husband own and operate this shop in a small rural town (NOT city), and they seem content to sell tubs to their local target demographic. They have been in business for many years and she really seemed like she couldn't care less about getting my business. It took quite a while before she talked price, and I did not have to make to any sort of commitment to get her price, nor did I get the "hey, especially for you, 'cuz you're such a special guy, I can offer you this amazing one time only price." The person here locally I have been dealing with is the sales / service manager, and she knew him by name and spoke highly of him. She also knew the lady who preceded him in that position, and likewise had good things to say about her. The shops here in the city are all located in strip malls or complexes that clearly come with a big city lease. I am wagering to bet this rural dealer might actually own their building, and most definitely won't have anywhere near the operating costs of the big city guys. This person was the first and only dealer I have spoken with who went against the grain and actually seemed honest and legit and ZERO pressure. In every dealership I have gone into, the salesmen I have dealt with fit into your above description perfectly, and every time I left the shop, I felt like I needed a shower. With this rural dealer, I went to them. They do not market here in the city and assuming what she said is true, she honors her contractual territorial boundaries. If so, I find it very commendable of them to do that in order to play fair and to ensure their very few remote customers are taken care of in the city. However at the same time, I also completely agree with your comment: "If this deal of yours is actually true, don't ya think your city dealer would MATCH the rural dealers price, to get the FULL profit of the sale, rather than split the profit with the guy down the road???????????" but you have to keep in mind, in a big city, this dealer knows that if I don't buy from him, there will always be someone else who will. Business acumen in a small town is much different than in a big city. All I know is that I was given a price of 12K Cdn for a brand new D1 Lotus Bay. She had no way of knowing if I was calling from the big city or across the street - that was her price. I would love to think that I could go into the local city dealer and say, look, either match her price or I walk, and he would realize that he can either agree and make ALL the profit, albeit reduced from what he was expecting, or say no, and get only a portion of the rural dealer's even smaller profit. I guarantee you he is not going to sell me this tub for 12K, when he already gave me a smoking deal of 17K. Why? I think it boils down to one word: greed. Who knows, perhaps this inconceivable arrangement is something that is in place as part of their contract with D1?? That being the case, the local dealer might have no choice but to provide warranty support? Anyway...it appears cynicism and criticism abound in this industry and obviously on these forums as well, and Dr. Spa, I am not some ignorant wide eyed first-time buyer. I have done, and am doing, a significant amount of research into this purchase, which was why I posted this, to get feedback from other knowledgeable people in the business. While I do appreciate your feedback and recognize your experience, I am not so naive as to take the comments of a complete stranger, someone whom I have never dealt with, as gospel, and run out and plunk down XX dollars without doing my homework. I will admit I am not an industry expert, but this will be my 3rd tub, so do I have some past experience to draw from. I fully appreciate that the warranty / service thing is a big issue, actually a HUGE issue. I can easily put myself in the place of the local dealer, and imagine just how receptive and responsive I would be if I were him and had a customer (me) who bought out of town, come crying to me for service. However, if the claim is true that he would be compensated by this rural dealer, I would hope that he would, even reluctantly, do his part. I might get lucky, and get a completely problem-free product, and my warranty issues would be all be for naught. Or, I could get a complete lemon and really need the help of a dedicated dealer. I don't want to take that gamble. So if I do pursue this option, I will be sure to do as you suggested, and speak with the local dealer to verify this arrangement and how any warranty / service issues will be handled. Like I said, this is not a petty amount....this is a several thousand dollars. Honestly, tell me you wouldn't be doing the exact same thing if it meant 5K left in your pocket? Anyway, I do appreciate your opinion, and if I do go into this, will do such having done as much homework as I can. Thanks again.

I am curently shopping for a new tub, and have narrowed it down to the Jacuzzi 480 or the the D1 Bay series, possibly the Serena Bay. Recently I have been favoring the Jacuzzi's. However, having read many good things about Marquis spas, I was interested in checking these out before I purchase. I found it odd that they don't have a dealer in my city, but do show dealers in a couple smaller towns, both within 2 hour drives of here. On a bit of a whim, I called one of them to find out what kind of prices they have on the Marquis tubs. I learned that they actually don't sell them anymore, but primarily sell D1 tubs. We spoke a bit about the D1s and how happy this rural dealer was in dealing with the D1 company. Nothing but great things to say about the service they provide to this dealer. I told the rep how I had been looking at D1's, and how I had a refundable deposit on a D1 tub here with the dealer in the city, intitially a Lotus Bay - but that may change as we now want a lounger. I told the rep how the city dealer's regular Lotus Bay retail price as listed at $21,999.00 Cdn, but had been reduced to $18,499.00, and how I was offered the "great" price - a builder's discount, of $16,999.00 Cdn. Again, this was a 2009 Lotus Bay, ulttralife white, with all the bells and whistles - just no stereo. The rep told me how they had a few D1 models in stock, with blemishes, that they were selling at good prices. Here's what blew me away: I was also told that their price on a new 2009 Lotus Bay, no blemishes, white etc. - exactly like the one I have the deposit on, was $12,000.00 Cdn!!! What!? That's 5K cheaper than here in the city, for less than a 2 hour drive!!! Naturally, I asked about warranty / service. I was told that they aren't allowed to target the market here in the city, and that they don't do so, and just sell to their local area. That said, apparently there are a few customers from the city who have gone out there and bought a tub. In instances like this, what this rural dealer does is shares their profit with the city dealer. By doing this, I was told that the city dealer is indirectly involved in the sale, and has a vested interest (obligation) to provide service. I am not looking for help with water issues etc, just warranty repairs for any problems I may encounter. So what does everyone think? 5K savings is HUGE, plus the fact that the local dealer is getting "money for nothing" - basically. Had I not found this rural dealer, I think I would have been dealing on a J-480, as to me, it seemed to be a better bang for the buck. Now, considering the significant cost savings, I think I might go with a Serena Bay - the rural dealer's price on a 2009 Serena Bay, with a slight mar in the top of the shell (which has been repaired and is barely noticeable), in obsidian (black) which is also an upgrade, no stereo, is $15,500.00 Cdn with full warranty. How can I refuse these prices? If it was a few hundred, or even a thousand dollars difference, I would proably deal here in the city....but 5K difference!! Wow! Oh, about $300 for delivery and setup too, this to bring it in from just under 2 hours away. Interested to hear your comments. I'd hate to walk into the local dealer, ask for my deposit back, but then have to go in and get warranty help from him a couple weeks later. I'd feel a bit guilty. On the other hand, if this other dealer can sell me the tub for 5K less than his price, and still make a profit that they would actually be sharing with him anyway, I kinda get pissed off. There is obviosuly much bigger markup on these things than I thought!