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quantumchromodynamics

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Posts posted by quantumchromodynamics

  1. I guess what i should have asked you is, can you offer any insight to his problem, or info, that the poster wouldn’t, or couldn't already find on the internet themselves? Any personal experience? something you experienced out in the field? Not found on the internet, and cut and paste into the thread?

    My personal experience out in the field is that sometimes the hoses can become damaged and leak. I have seen it happen. No one else had mentioned it. I didn't just get it from the internet. It is also what Jandy recommends to check.

    Sometimes the best thing you can do is direct people to the right resources. There is nothing wrong with pointing out what the manual says. [edit]The original poster[end edit] did not include enough information to indicate any probable or likely cause.

    It's hard to diagnose those heaters over the internet. Failures with heater components can have a handful of symptoms.

    Really need to be on site to properly diagnose/fix 'em.

  2. Here are some good posts to help you understand some of the basics.

    Nitro's approach to Water Maintenance

    Dichlor/bleach Method In A Nutshell

    Chlorine Demand

    I know that it can seem like a lot to learn and do for a small pool. However, the size does not change the basics of good water maintenance.

    At a minimum, you need to maintain a consistent chlorine level of about 2 to 4 ppm and a pH between 7.2 and 7.9. You can use regular, unscented bleach for chlorine and muriatic acid to lower pH as needed.

    You can use the pool calculator to calculate the amounts of chemicals to add to change a chemical level.

  3. Cracked or loose hoses are one of the things that should be checked when there is an airflow error. I think that the hoses are a definite possibility. Even if the hoses are not causing the fault indicator, the loss of airflow will cause excessive exhaust temperatures, which can damage the hoses.

    The manual lists tubing as the first item on the checklist. That would indicate that the manufacturer thinks that it is worth checking when an airflow fault occurs.

  4. I suppose theoretically it could happen. I've just not seen that type of cycling when there are cracked hoses. It will usually not run 20 sec. let alone 20 min. before it cycles, consistently. Have you?

    Anything that is going to cause an airflow error should usually happen immediately and prevent the heater from starting. The twenty minute interval before faulting is unusual.

  5. But it runs for twenty min. Cracked tubing isn't going to wait twenty min, then start leaking. How many times have you seen that?

    There might be multiple problems contributing to the air flow error. All of the possible causes should be checked. If there is low air flow, then the exhaust will be too hot and cause tubing failure. A combination of causes can be cause the switch to be on the borderline of being open or closed.

    The point i was trying to so delicately make, is that your post sounded as though you hadn't read any other post but the first.

    I had read the first two when I wrote my post. You had not yet posted when I first read the problem and started writing my post. You posted while I was writing my post. I only saw your post after I posted my post.

  6. He stated that it runs for twenty min before it shuts off. What does the manual say?

    I posted a link to the manual and what it says to check when an air flow error is indicated. What are you asking about? What does it say about what?

    I would first check the tubing. It will become cracked and brittle at the ends, and then it won't make a good seal. A weak tubing seal can cause this type of cycling. It the tubing is cracked, brittle and/or discolored at the ends, where it connects to the switch, it usually indicated an excessively hot exhaust, sometimes due poor air flow.

  7. AIR FLO SW

    (air flow switch)

    1. Broken, split, pinched or disconnected fan/switch tubing.

    1. Check tubing and replace if necessary.

    2. Fan not operating. 2. Correct fault or replace fan.

    Refer to qualified service personnel.

    3. Fan running slow or premature fan failure.

    3. Verify proper wiring for 120VAC or 240VAC. Refer to qualified service personnel.

    4. Air flow restricted at intake or discharge.

    4. Check for proper clearances around heater and for adequate room ventilation if enclosed. Inspect for blockage or restriction at discharge or flue. Refer to qualified service personnel

    http://www.jandy-downloads.com/pdfs/LXandLT_H02140B.pdf

    Since you are getting an air flow error indicator, that needs to be investigated and corrected. The heater will shut down when an air flow fault is detected.

    The tubing tends to get brittle and crack at the ends, especially if the exhaust is running hot. The tubing does not seal well to the switch and can come loose when it is cracked and brittle.

  8. The K-1003 uses OTO to test for chlorine. That is not a very good kit to use. I highly recommend the K-2006.

    Your previous post indicates that you were using bromine. Are you now using chlorine?

    Hi there,

    new to the forum, I just got my secondhand Arctic Fox installed, and the levels well balanced thanks to the advice of my local dealer and some extensive reading. I've gone the bromine route using the Onzen system.

  9. Here are some good posts to help you understand some of the basics.

    Nitro's approach to Water Maintenance

    Dichlor/bleach Method In A Nutshell

    Chlorine Demand

    Decontamination procedure.

    pool calculator

    Once you get your water balanced, you should not need many chemicals at all. The Onzen should be used the supply the base chlorine demand. You should use dichlor or regular, unscented bleach to make up the rest of the demand based on usage.

    I recommend that you use dichlor for the variable chlorine demand until you achieve 20 to 30 ppm of cyanuric acid. Adding 50 ppm of borates from boric acid will help buffer the pH.

    I am finding that I am going through quite a bit of PH Down chemicals, as well as Alkalinity increaser.

    Forget about trying to get your TA (total alkalinity) to some predetermined level. Allow it to go wherever it needs to to achieve a stable pH. If your pH is constantly rising, then your TA is too high. If your pH is constantly falling, then your TA is too low. When your TA is just right, then your pH will remain stable. Stop adding alkalinity increaser to allow your TA to go down until your pH stops rising.

    The bicarbonate is in equilibrium with carbon dioxide. As the carbon dioxide comes out of solution and off gasses, some of the bicarbonate combines with available hydrogen ions and becomes carbon dioxide.

    HCO3- + H+ < > H2O + CO2

    When you have too much bicarbonate, it creates more carbon dioxide than the water can hold and the carbon dioxide comes out of solution and escapes into the atmosphere. This is why an excessive level of bicarbonate causes the pH to rise.

    TA increaser is regular baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) that you can get at the grocery store. You can get any brand of dichlor

    You can get a quart of muriatic acid from the hardware store to lower your pH. You can use 3 % hydrogen peroxide to lower your chlorine, if you want, but you should try to avoid producing too much chlorine in the first place.

    I highly recommend that you get the Taylor K-2006 test kit. It is very important to get good accurate and precise information.

  10. Plaster dust is caused by calcium hydroxide, which forms during the curing of the cement. The calcium hydroxide combines with the bicarbonate to form calcium carbonate.

    Ca(OH)2 + HCO3- < > CaCO3 + H2O + OH-

    The top layer of plaster should have most of the calcium hydroxide convert into calcium carbonate. If your water chemistry is too aggressive, then the plaster won't be able to form a passivation layer of calcium carbonate. As you go deeper into the plaster, you will expose more calcium hydroxide and the plaster will continue to dissolve. The bicarbonate startup procedure provides extra bicarbonate to help convert the calcium hydroxide to calcium carbonate.

    Since your aggregate is quartz, some of the calcium hydroxide should become calcium silicate, which is less susceptible to dissolution by aggressive water.

    Note: The most important factor is the CSI when determining the risk of scaling or etching. My recommendation for a higher pH is offset by a lower calcium and TA level. By increasing the pH and lowering the TA, you will get less pH increase due to carbon dioxide off-gassing.

    The wetedge startup guide does not address CSI. That's one of the reasons that they use a lower figure for the pH

    You can use the pool calculator to calculate your CSI (Calcite Saturation Index). I recommend that you keep the CSI at about -0.2 to -0.1 for the first 28 days and then at 0.0 to +0.3 after the first 28 days.

  11. When backwashing a DE filter, a separation tank should be used to collect the waste DE. Otherwise, DE can buildup and clog the lines that are being used for discharge.

    hayward-de-separation-tank.jpg

    http://www.poolcenter.com/separation-tanks-hayward-poolstor.htm

    http://www.haywardnet.com/pdfs/replace_pdfs/162-163Hay2009.pdf

    http://www.poolcenter.com/hayward-separation-tank-manual.pdf

    A cheaper alternative to using a separation tank when backwashing to the yard, or other open area, is to use a filter bag to catch the DE. Nylon stockings make a good cheap collection filter.

    You shouldn't use your vacuum hose for pressure. The vacuum hose is designed for suction and will be damaged by pressure.

  12. I think that direct sunlight causes the hydrogen peroxide to disproportionate into water and oxygen gas.

    2H2O2 --> 2H2O + O2

    Although, hydrogen peroxide is used in outdoor pools with Baquacil, where it seems to last for a while without breaking down too fast. So, I'm not sure why they specify only indoor pools.

    [edit]The Baquacil shock (hydrogen peroxide) does contain stabilizer(s). Perhaps the stabilizers work in a similar way to chlorine stabilizer and slow down the reaction rate to a rate too low to be effective. Perhaps the hydrogen peroxide breaks down too quickly without stabilizers.[end edit]

  13. (Australia also allows hydrogen peroxide mostly for spas).

    This reference for the "Operation of Swimming Pools and Spa Pools in South Australia" specifies :

    The ultraviolet light plus hydrogen peroxide (UV+H2O2) system is approved for disinfecting indoor swimming pools up to 500,000 litres in capacity.

    Reference

    Hydrogen peroxide has to be used with UV, and only in indoor pools (at least in South Australia).

  14. It's going to depend on how aggressive your water is. The way I start up a pool, I only need about 1 gallon of acid per 10,000 gallons of pool water in the first two or three weeks. After that, I don't usually need any acid.

    Increasing your target pH and CSI should begin to significantly reduce your need for acid, especially if you're using trichlor.

    DO Use a combo pool brush (steel/nylon)

    Reference

    The above source specifies a combo stainless steel/Nylon brush. I think that an all nylon brush should be sufficient.

  15. Boric acid has a pKa of 9.14, so it's not very acidic at all. How acidic it is depends on how close your pH is to 9.14. The farther away (lower) from 9.14 that your pH is, the less acidic the boric acid is. Therefore, it is self limiting on how much of an effect it can have on your pH.

    For example, at a pH of 7.6, 97 % of the boric acid will stay as boric acid B(OH)3 and only 3 % will become the tetrahydroxyborate ion B(OH)4-, which should lower your pH by about 0.19.

    B(OH)3 + H2O < > B(OH)4- + H+

    Basically, you can consider it to be mostly pH neutral with only a slight decrease in pH.

    You could add 50 ppm borates by adding 13.9 Kg of boric acid and 0.65 Kg of Borax (to offset the acidity of the boric acid), but it shouldn't be necessary if your pH normally runs high anyway. The Proteam Supreme Plus is mostly boric acid with a little bit of Borax to make it pH neutral.

  16. Here are the recommendations from wet edge:

    Recommended Pool Water Chemistry Guidelines

    pH 7.0 to 7.4

    Alkalinity 70 to 90 ppm

    Calcium Hardness 180 ppm

    Chlorine Level 0.5 to 1.5 ppm

    Recommended Water Balance after the Start Up

    pH 7.4 to 7.6

    Alkalinity 80 to 120 ppm

    Chlorine Level 1 to 3 ppm

    Calcium Hardness 200 to 400 ppm

    Cyanuric acid below 50 ppm

    http://www.wetedgetechnologies.com/pdfs/StartUp_Altima_Gray.pdf

    I think that if you want to keep within their guidelines, you should aim for a pH of 7.4. I think that less than that is too aggressive. Increasing the calcium to 180 should help as well.

  17. The NPC (National Plasterer's Council) startup procedure that I referenced above recommends a pH of between 7.2 and 7.6. I find that a pH of 7.7 to 7.9 works well as long as the CSI does not get too high.

    I think that the combination of the wire brush and the low CSI is too aggressive and is causing unnecessary plaster wear and pH increase. I think that you can increase the CSI to at least -0.3 and start using a nylon bristle brush.

  18. When I start up a plaster pool, I don't use very much acid at all. Usually just a few gallons in the first few weeks and that's it. Your aggressive chemistry is dissolving the plaster and causing the pH rise. If you get your CSI up to near zero, your acid usage should drop significantly.

    I recommend that you keep the pH at about 7.6 to 7.9. Increase your cyanuric acid to about 40 ppm and increase your calcium enough to get your CSI to about -0.1.

    Brush the pool daily to remove any plaster dust.

    The Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) must be maintained between 0.0 and +0.3 for day-to-day maintenance after the initial start up procedure has been completed. This will help to reduce the likelihood of problems with the pool surface. Disregarding these LSI parameters promotes leaching, etching and discoloration on the negative (-) side and scaling and discoloration on the positive (+) side.

    http://www.npconline.net/StartUp.pdf

  19. The key is to find the correct TA for your pool. Don't worry about what your pH controller says it wants you to keep the TA at. It's biased anyway. It wants you to keep adding sodium bicarbonate so that it has something to do. Here is what's happening.

    NaHCO3 + HCl --> NaCl + H2O + CO2

    Baking soda + muriatic acid --> salt + water + carbon dioxide

    By adding sodium bicarbonate and hydrochloric acid, all you are doing is neutralizing both and wasting money. Moreover, it's also increasing your salt level, which is already too high.

    Don't worry about trying to keep your TA at any predetermined level. Allow it to go wherever it needs to to achieve a stable pH. What matters is your CSI. By balancing the other parameters, you can achieve perfect balance.

    I recommend that you add 50 ppm borate to help buffer the pH. Increasing the cyanuric acid will help you reduce your cell run time and it will also provide a pH buffer.

    Once you get your chemistry properly balanced, you should not need much acid at all.

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