jtravel

I'm new to the board and had no idea about all the past history. I'm just trying to learn as much as possible befor i decide what type of Spa I want to invest in. originally I considered just getting a low end Spa to see if the wife and I would actually use one enough to justify a high quality Spa purchase. A low end Spa however wouldn't likely give us the benefit of true hydrotherpy and just be a waste of time and money doomed to failure. We need the Hydrotherpy benefit but with Arizona summer temps 100 degrees plus I just don't think we are going to want to get in a Hot Spa.

I was leaning toward a Thermal Pane design at first because of its energy efficiency and ease to get at and repair. I live in Arizona, a hot climate and have some concerns now about higher temps in the cabinet causing premature failure of electronics and pumps. Would I be better with a full Foam tub in this situation?

Does anyone have any experience with Haven Spa's? I stumbled across them on the net recently and after reading thru a lot of their information I became very interested. They seem to serve a nitch market and claim to build quality Spa's based on sound engineering principles.

looking around for background info I ran across this on another on site: The first independent test in 1994 that evaluated the rise in temperature the spa water received from two jet pumps in a real* Coleman Spa that was tested. There was a temperature rise of 14 degrees, on high speed, just from the pumps over an 8 hour period. These were 1.5 HP pumps by the way; very small horsepower by today's standards. On low speed, with just the filter pump, the rise was 4 degrees over 8 hours. In 1996 another test was performed by the Universities of Arizona and Colorado here is a synopsis of the results with my notes in brackets “{}” "a fully insulated spa {full foam} makes no attempt to recover and use waste heat." (Tong and Rogers 1996). "...the performance of an insulating system which makes use of a thermal barrier {Thermally Sealed}, generated by waste heat rejected from the motors and pumps, in an enclosed air cavity around the tub is superior to a system which simply insulates the tub directly." In a recent test done in Alberta Canada, the Thermally Closed Arctic spa came in very high compared to some popular spas.

How much someone electric bill went up is a poor method to measure overall efficency unless you know their usage pattern. Leave the cover off for extended periods of time running jets in the winter and the electric usage is going to climb. someone else may leave it covered all the time and use it once a week if even that and have a low increased electric usage. I can't seem to find the history of problems associated with OC Spa's by Cal Spa sold thru Costco. The problems I have read about are the older Spa's from Manufactures that went out of business and no longer sold by Costco. OC spas have Full Foam insulation and that seems to be the norm from most Spa manufactures Until you get to the top of the line premium spa's with well insulated thermally sealed cabinets that take advantage of the waste heat from the Spa motors. What I’m slowly coming to the conclusion is most Spas’ on the market from big box stores and Spa dealers from most manufactures are poorly designed and cheaply manufactured to drive profits. You have to get up in the $9,000 range before you can find a well engineered quality Spa that will last many years and be maintainable. Higher price alone does not guarantee this however so its buyer beware when buying from a dealer as well as a big box store. This is part of the reason Spa sales are way down and manufactures and dealers are going out of business.

What in your opinion would make a great Spa and where is this one lacking? I look at the Specs and it seems good other than the full Foam insulation.

I agree, it depends on the specific person and situation. It’s a Fact of life however that some people will try and exploit every loophole in a policy and every courtesy a business offers their customers. It’s the Few that ruin good things for the many. Costco will likely be forced to define the specific details of their satisfaction policy with terms and limits in the future. It seems that Manufactures are the ones actually taking the Hit when a customer returns a product to Costco. They should insist on limits in their contracts with Costco if they don't already have them.

Sorry if my Posts came across that way. I don't know your character as a person or the real hard facts behind your experience with the Spa. I apologize if I judged you wrongly. If you truly suffered with this Spa for 8 years and feel you Are owed a refund then by all means escalate your case to Costco corporate for review.

Its a customer satisfaction policy that allows you to return a purchase your not sastified with, Its not a lifetime Guarentee. I think alittle common sense in order here but beyond that It is just ethically wrong to believe its ok to exploite the policy in this manner. You do what you think you have to do. Bring a lawsuit against Costco if thats what you feel is the right thing to do.

That Topic was for a totally different Spa. The links to that Spa on Costco are dead. This Spa has more jets,better & warranty cover with lifter. costs more as well. Can I get a better Spa than this from a Spa dealer for the same money?

They are suppose to be Lab tested and certified to comply with California certification requirements. You have a specific example where you feel the information is wrong? I will be glad to forward it to the California Energy commision for comment.

Costco online Currently has the OC Magestic M850L By Cal Spa for $4999.99 I keep reading here that Costco sells poorly built low end Spa's I would like to hear from all the all experts and Costco bashers alike. whats wrong with this Spa? http://calspas.net/images/swf/oc-hot-tubs-m850l-specs.html

I can see your point that Costco is still a middleman. They Just let the Factory deal with shipping and warranty repair and add a smaller markup. When I go into a Spa dealer its like buying a Car. The salesmen is always playing games to see how much he can get out of the customers. I just don't enjoy spending alot of my time playing games with the sales staff.

Here is a link to the database of spas that Meet energy usage requirements and approved for sale in California. I found it useful in checking R-value of insulation and operating costs of the Spas listed. http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/databa.../Pool_Products/

Sorry, double post

Trying to use this rejection of the return of an 8 year old spa as an example to bash Costco and their return policy is an absurd red herring. Costco stands behind the products they sell 100% and I have used their excellent satisfaction policy a few times. Any normal honest person would know before the manufactures warranty expires if they are satisfied with their Spa purchase. Costco does not fix or repair Spa's They are covered under the Manufactures warranty. If the Manufacture goes out of Business Costco Will step in and attempt to find someone else to service the warranty. You could return the Spa at that point if your having problems under the Costco satisfaction policy and be justified doing so. The manufacture agreed to market a quality Spa's or whatever other product thru Costco at a specific price point. That’s a choice the manufacture made and they need to live up to their agreements. If the manufacture then chooses to cut corners and put out an inferior product that’s a bad choice they made as a business and will suffer the conquences when they get their product returned. under insulated Spa's were sold in the Past but that was true of spas sold by other manufatures as well as thoes sold by Costco. the Spa market has matured over the years and energy efficency has come a long way. California has specific standards on energy use and efficiency of spa's that can be sold in the state. You can download that information from the internet and see the R value of insulation in the tub and cover and energy use numbers to compare the different tubs and manufactures. I would have no problem buying one of the OC Spas by Cal Spa's that Costco is now selling. Quality Manufacture making a quality product at a fair price. The cost savings comes in by cutting out the middleman and their overhead from a storefront and sales staff. I understand you guys in the business of selling Spa's are taking a hit from places like Costco taking away your market share and your bashing out of anger,so it goes Some people prefer to deal with a local shop that may or may not be their when you need them. Other have no problem calling the manufacture direct and getting information from them or using the internet as needed. We all need to research our purchase and make sure we know what we are getting and what level of service and help we will require.

If you honestly had problems with the Spa and it could not be repaired to your satisfaction during the warranty period you should have contacted Costco and returned it at that point. You didn't do that and should take some personal responsibility for your choices and actions. The board members who work for Spa dealers encouraging this kind of behavior should be ashamed of themselves. You prove your dishonest nature by doing so and I would not want to do any business with you.

The reason I believe the Dreammaker 110 Volt spa would use less electricity is because it does not use a electric heater element to heat the water like a 220 volt spa does. The Hot stick technology they claim uses water pressure and micro jets & vortex action to create friction with the water molecules. It could all be manufacture BS for all I know thats why I was hoping to find some users reviews on these tubs. I know they are not going to be close in quality and features of a $8000 and up Spa but im not sure I would use the Spa enough to justify that kind of cost or the cost of site prep and electrical wiring to support it. Less than $3000 for a 110v plug & play 10-13 Jet spa to see if we like and would use a Spa is what Im looking at. relaxation and some Med level of hydrotherpy would be what we are hoping for. At the sametime if Dreamaker is really a POS without any real benefit I don't want to waste my time & money on it.

I was looking at getting a Dreammaker X400 or the Fantasy. Does anyone have one of these and would you recommend them? The 110 Volt Plug & play attracted me and this Spa and will fit nicely on my back patio. They claim its one of the most energy efficient using no electrical heater element. The Hot stick friction heater claims it will raise the water temp 1.7 degrees per hour, I live in Arizona and it does not get very cold in the winter so im thinking this could work ok in my climate. The Sales rep claims Dreammaker is the Value priced leader in Spas and offers more bang for the buck. They advertise a lifetime warranty on their shells and thats in the written warranty. They also claim a lifetime warranty on the dual Hot stick heater on their website but thats not stated in the writtten warranty and raised a red flag for me. I emailed the Factory rep about this but didn't get a answer about the heater warranty claim. Their basic warranty is only 1 year parts and 90 days labor although the dealer says they upgrade it to a full year of labor at no extra cost as a bonus. Pretty weak warranty I feel but if parts are easy to obtain and its not hard to work on I would have no problem doing the repair work myself after the 1 year ran out. I have been looking around on the internet for owner reviews but have not found many. The ones I did are several years old befor they redesigned their Spa's Should I stay away from Dreammaker and look at a different brand? I would go with a 220 volt spa but was concerened about high electricity costs to keep it running. Any help or advise you experts can offer me would be greatly appreciated.