watersentinel

And pool and spa professionals are still "slugging" acid to lower TA even though it has been documented in the now defunct JSPSI that it does not work! This article in you cite above is actually a decent primer for those who are just starting to learn water chemistry but it by no means is anything indepth! I have to say that chemgeek probably has a better understanding of the different chemical used to sanitize pool and spa water than most professionals do (and I happen to work in the industry and basically agree with about 99+% of what he says!) Sorry, just could't keep quiet on this one! I don't think you should keep quiet. You clearly work in the industry and have experience to back up your opinions. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but using bleach in a spa isn't a good one. That's my only arguement. I care so much about each and every customer I have that I hate to see them endangering their own health or potentially damaging their spa. Not to mention that using a spa is relaxing and you shouldn't have to add chemicals several times a day to maintain your water. There is also no way you should run a spa without fc. The people on this forum using bleach are doing that for the most part. It is a really great article and one we give to customers. I have to add that I can lower the alkanity by plugging with acid. Of course, I've been around the block a few times. But alas my time here is done. Goodbye and goodluck to everyone with their water.

I was warned by many people through emails that you won't listen to facts. The term google king was used and I understand their frustration. Anyone can claim to be anything online these days and google any term they want. That explains someone who doesn't own a spa or work with them hanging out on a spa forum telling people how to care for them. It's a shame that you are misleading and hurting so many people. I've been helping them privately since they are afraid to speak out against you in the forum. Remember that I was brought here by a customer who followed your bleach advice. You don't listen to facts and you aren't interested in the truth. You do not have one shred of evidence to prove that dichlor is a problem in spas, period. And even if it were, bleach would not be the solution. If you need to believe the sky is red despite the truth that it's blue then keep on believing. I have over 20 years experience in the business and you don't even own a spa. It's absurd. If you don't have an agenda why don't you lead people towards bromine or other alternatives to dichlor? I helped my customer that was harmed by your advice and hopefully a few others here. One email stated that you think you own this forum. You clearly don't like your territory invaded by someone who has more knowledge than you which is understandable. Since I don't have any shortcomings in my life that send me to the internet looking for adoration, I will leave you to your little corner of the world.

Chris if you aren't going to buy your salt system right away I think you'd have luck adding the mps after a soak instead of before. I am confused about the smell you are having and have never encountered this with the use of mps. Usually customers have this problem because of too little fc in the spa. There is alot written here so you might have already mentioned your fc levels. If not, what level do you keep your fc at and is it constant? I know there are people here trying bleach in their spas and I wouldn't be at all suprised if they had problems with persistent chloramines. You said you don't like mps because of problems testing your sanitizer. Mps shouldn't register as free chlorine only combined chlorine. If you are keeping your fc readings up and shocking weekly or using an ozonator you shouldn't have to worry much about cc reading interference. I hope you and your wife find a way that you can both enjoy your spa with no odor.

chemgeek perhaps this article http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-107277341.html will help you understand the different chemicals used to sanitize pool and spa water as well as ozone. I thought it might help you to read an article that is from a trusted pool and spa publication. Pool and spa professionals have relied on Pool & Spa news for almost 50 years. You will see that the clearly state the sodium hypochlorite causes a ph rise in your water. It also states that sodium hypochlorite becomes an inert substance rapidly in high temperatures. This is why people are having to add large doses of mps to their water and dose atleast twice a day with bleach when they apply your advice. It has information about stabilized chlorine that you are so concerned with, stating that you have to drain and refill pools more often when it's used. Of course with spas you are draining and refilling them every 3 to 4 months anyways. There is information in the ozone section about the chance of chlorine and ozone destroying each other if they are allowed to come into contact with one another. I expect you will continue with your agenda of urging people to use bleach in their spas despite unbiased information from industry experts.

You could try putting a piece of rubber or thick carpeting between the filter and the base of the spa it sits on. You said you isolated the pump so I'm not sure if you already tried this. Is this a new spa or one you've owned for awhile? Have you determined that there is nothing causing the pump to be louder than it should; like a damaged seal,worn bearings, blockage somewhere or leak causing air to be introduced?

Nc you said that at 3oz of mps your bromine went through the roof. How high did it go? You could try adding 1oz and testing and continue adding 1oz until you reach the desired bromine level. If 1 ounce increments are too much then try 1/2 ounce at a time. 5-10ppm is the suggested range for a shock.

Sentinel, the problem is that with such a high concentration of CYA, the fc residual would probably have to be something like 15ppm to do the same job that a 2-5ppm residual would do if the CYA were within normal boundaries. No one is saying that CYA is bad for you. That's why the CDC doesn't have an upper limit set for it. But at that kind of concentration no reasonable amount of chlorine in te water is going to do the job that it should be doing. I agree yeti. I didn't mean to imply that cya is bad for you. Chlorine will continue to kill up to a cya level of 500. The concern is that people will be lulled into a false security with long lasting residuals at higher cya levels. At 1 ppm chlorine can do it's job in spas. The 2-5 level recommended is taking cya levels into account. It's strange for me to hear so much talk about cya in residential spas. Until this website I have never seen anyone concerned with it. It's a given that people using chlorine in their spas use dichlor which has cya. If people drain and refill their spas they are never going to have a problem. I'm curious if the advocates of bleach in spas have any evidence showing outbreaks of psudomonas in hot tubs using dichlor. My point is that I'd be much more concerned over spas being ran with no residual sanitizer as a result of using bleach. Psuedomonas multiplies rapidly when fc residual falls below .5 or ph is raised above 8. My goal isn't to say that cya does not bind with chlorine. My point is that there are greater evils in a residential spa. I will leave pool chemistry to you pool professionals. Pool and spa water is so different that it would be irresponsible of me to comment on that. If someone wants to keep their fc residual at .5 in a spa then yes high cya levels would be problematic but there is no reason not to keep a fc residual of 2-5 ppm. You won't have a smell and you won't have skin irritation.

Richard I certainly don't mean to insult you but it makes more sense to listen to spa owners and professionals. If you are sick you go to a doctor if you need legal help you go to a lawyer. It doesn't matter what a textbook says it matters how it translates to spa care. I read posts where it was suggested people lower the alkalinity in their spas to try and compensate for the ph rise from adding bleach. Metals are more soluable at lower alkalinities and that is not good for a spa. It's better advice to prevent the ph rise in the first place by not using bleach. There is just no logical reason to suggest that people use bleach. People are working too hard to try and make it work. We work hard to make spa care as easy as possible for our customers. Reading lmartine's post and others shows me that they aren't getting the help they need from their dealers. Spa and chemical dealers should be more available to their customers and more hands on. I wonder if people might be afraid to call or visit them alot worrying that they might be bothering them. It's not unusual at all for people to have problems with their first fill. Practice makes perfect. Mps is a powerful oxidizer and is very useful in the spa. I think David mentioned adding it after he soaks. Another option is to add it before you soak. It's possible to sit in a spa and by the end of the soak start to smell a little something. With mps in the water this won't happen. It's possible however to keep spa water clear and healthy with daily additions of dichlor and mps only once a week. I'm curious if the people that have to use mps to get a residual are not keeping their fc residuals high enough. If it gets low at any time algae and bacteria can be growing in the water that will use up your chlorine the next time you add it. One day you open your spa to cloudy water. It didn't just get cloudy overnight. It's been building up for some time. You just didn't realize it because you've assumed that clear water is healthy water. It's impotant to remember that if you don't keep your ph in the proper range the sanitizer can't do it's job. To be concerned about cya but have high ph levels is senseless. At the high ph levels caused by sodium hypochlorite your sanitizer is useless. While your ph is creeping up your sanitizer isn't working as effectively. When it gets bad enough you lower the ph but a cycle has started. Your water shouldn't be on a rollercoaster it should be consistent so that bacteria and algae can never get a foothold. I've read that many people are very concerned with keeping their fc residual as low as possible. I think this is something perpetuated by people marketing alternative products like mineral cartridges. Remember you are dealing with parts per million. 5 parts per million of chlorine is very very low.

David David thanks for the warm welcome. I had a customer call me out because of their water problems and showed me where they were getting their advice to use bleach. So here I am.

OK, a couple of things grabbed my attention. First, what exactly do you mean when you say bleach is unstable? Second, what damage to the spa equipment you claim that bleach will do? There are two types of chlorine. It is a misconception that all chlorine is the same. There is unstable/inorganic chlorine an example of which is sodium hypochlorite or bleach. The second type is stable/organic chlorine, an example of which is what's commonly called dichlor. With the use of sodium hypochlorite (bleach) it's incredibly difficult to maintain a proper ph. With the high ph associated with it's use there is scale buildup that clogs jets, pipe, pumps and heaters. Most people don't want the hassle of constantly monitoring and adjusting their ph which is time consumine and adds to the tds in their spa. Over time they tend to let things go and just accept the higher ph or let the time between adjustments increase.

The CDC instructs you to keep a fc residual of 2-5 ppm in your spa which takes into account the fact that there is cya in the water. The CDC gives no limits for CYA in spa water. So there is no need to drain. Most pathogens except a few are killed within a few minutes and your free chlorine residual is hanging around ready to do it's job if needed. If one were to panic and believe that cya was doubling the contact time necessary to kill pathogens, what would that mean? You would need a fc residual for 4 or 5 minutes instead of 2? We all maintain a fc residual in our spas 24 hours a day, so there is no need to panic. Spas have been maintained with stabilized chlorine for decades.

Guardex Stain & Scale I & II. Also, watch the amount of shock you are using at this point. Staining may be boosted by having a lower alaklinity, having metals in the water and then shocking. That is great information. Alkalinity doesn't just regulate the ph of water, but also the metal content.

Stabilizer or cya can effect the contact time needed to kill certain resistant organisms in your spa. As long as you drain and refill your spa every 4 months you will be fine. Draining your spa is the only way to lower your cya and total dissolved solids levels. Just remember that pools and spas are two different animals and they same rules do not apply to both.

David you seem upset by my post and I'm sorry. I am only offering to you the same advice and care I offer my own customers. I don't know who Richard is but I'd be willing to bet the farm that he is not a spa professional. I seriously doubt he's owned his spa for long if he's advocating the use of bleach. It's too bad that you got poor advice from your dealer. That makes it even more upsetting to see you getting poor advice here. There is a learning curve to owning a spa and to give up on dichlor after such a short time probably wasn't the answer. Most new spa owners have to refill in about a month. If dichlor doesn't work for you then bromine would be a much better alternative to bleach. To answer your question, with the proper use of chlorine it would be unusual to smell anything at 5 parts per milliion. If you have 5ppm fc and 6 hours later you have 0, that's a big warning sign. Either something is using up your FC or if you are using bleach, you are seeing that it doesn't last in a spa. As far as what can happen in 6 hours to hurt you, alot. Any algae, bacteria or viruses either left in your spa or introduced into it during that period (your spa is not a sealed environment) can multiply rapidly during that time. You stated that you hadn't been able to maintain a residual and suddenly you had one. A residual of fc sometimes is not enough. It's further proof of how unstable bleach is. I'm sure there are other people on this site that will tell you that their only concern over their customers in not their profit. I'm concerned with their safety and yours. A spa is a big investment and I hope yours last for years. If you write downt he pros and cons of bleach, the only possible pro you could come up with is cost. The con list would be longer. Dichlor is not expensive enough to risk your health. There are many online sources these days that keep things even more affordable. In addition, there is bromine which many people have good luck with. Clear water is nice but it doesn't mean healthy water. I'm not asking you to subtitute my judgement for your own. I'm just offering you my experience over 2 decades. Just remember that anyone can type anything on the internet. While Richard might have good intentions, I'd want proof that he's maintained healthy water in his spa or his customer's spas and had no damage to the spa or the equipment while using bleach. There are good reasons behind parameters for alkalinity and ph in spas. There are good reasons that you are to maintain a sanitizer residual in spas at all time. Hot water is a breeding ground. All that being said I hope you are enjoying your spa. I know it can be overwhelming in the beginning. Just don't throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

Biguanide works by causing bacterial cells to 'explode'. The 'baquagoo' is actually the remains of the cell wall and other stuff. Biguanide is not an oxidizer so these bacterial remains do not get 'burned off' like they do with chlorine and bromine. The peroxide oxidier that is used with biguanide does help burn them off to an extent but it is not as strong an oxidizing agent at the concentrations used. Higher concentrations are out of the question because they would cause bather discomfort, to say the least! This goo gets collected in the filter where it is, hopefully, removed by frequent filter cleaning (MUCH more fequent than is needed with either chlorine or bromine.) This is just the nature of the beast, so to speak, when using a biguanide system. Also, since it is basically a biocide like the antibiotics our doctor's prescribe it has been found that bacteria do develop an immunity to it over time much like they can do with antibiotics, which is why both pink slime and white water mold, which are both bacterial, are a problem with biguanide system. Biguanide is also used as a medical preservative and there has been a case in recent years where it was used in a popular contact lens solution that let to the outbreak of a corneal amoeba infection that led to blindness in several cases. There was a large recall of this well known contact lens solution just a few years back because of this. Once again this seems to be more evidence of it's limited effectiveness as a biocide. Also, it is not registered for use in Canada. What do they know that we don't? Add to this the known fact that biguanide will destroy certain plastics that have been used in spas and are suspected of affecting pump seals makes this, IMHO, a sanitizer of last resort for those who CANNOT use either chlorine or bromine (rare but it does happen!) Great info. In my experience, I have seen no reason to use these products over dichlor or bromine unless there is an allergy and you just can't use them. I'm not a dr. but the chance of someone being allergic to dichlor and bromine seems slim. They are more expensive and I don't believe they are as effective. Occasionally you do have a customer that has read something about them and just has to try it. I warn them and let them do what they want. I don't know anyone that has stayed on the system for long. At the risk of offending someone that sells the products, I think they are cash cows.