B0Darc

Ahhh coffee in the hottub... watching the sunrise ...mrsDarc snuzzling ...Life is Good

Google your model name and add the word "manual" If you got it used and didn't get a manual included, it sounds like you need one, and it's likely downloadable in PDF format. If you have one take some time out of your busy day(off!) to browse... and darlin' I mean that in the nicest way. I'm not a technician nor do I have any expertise on your model spa but some general rules apply. Mine runs all the time too, but it's designed to.. it's a circulation pump. In the winter you should turn off any bubbles (air levers on rim of spa?) when you get out, because when it goes to full power it's sucking in cold winter air and cooling the water during those filter cycles. That may make it run the heater more. When your filters start getting clogged and the pumps have to work harder they make a little more noticeable noise. Read some of the tips on here about cleaning your filters. Your spa might just need a little TLC. Either way your post just got a little bump to the surface... Have a happy New Years Eve soak!

Ask a friend or neighbor who owns a spa for a good reference for an honest reliable Spa Technician. This one may require the laying on of hands, but I am NOT a spa technician. It sounds like you have had multiple problems, but at this point it might actually be simple. When you get too many layers it hard to diagnose over the Internet.... here's a bump back up to the the top however! Best wishes for hottubbing in 2008!

Lemme give you a bump Steve-rino... I am NOT a spa technician. Use logic what does each piece do... main purpose? You are doing great... nice break down what piece is designed to cut power when there is no water flow? pressure switch If there was low flow, the pressure switch should cut power and throw code. It *is* possible to have two problems... An intermittent thermostat? Aren't pressure switches cheap? a quick test...

First the moderators on here make that call because this is their place of business...'nuff said. 1.) The person making the claim was the owner of the new C0stco spa... he said he was suffering a little buyers remorse because the spa in fact did not fit him very well, or he wished it fit him better. Fitment is something you would expect as an added bonus from doing business with a dealer, something he traded when he made a discount buying decision. Competent? Yes. He also indicated that the $3,000 he felt he saved soothed that buyers remorse just a tad... a compromise. Hey it could be the difference between being able to afford a spa or waiting another year... his call. 2.) Dealers (a good one!) make money by providing service... all the little details that in the end make you happy, so when the stars align on that one everyone gains. 3.) Dude! If I were to guess I'd say you were the CEO of C0stco (joke!) You speak of their product like YOU have something to gain. I'm not trying to shut you up and you should certainly feel free to share facts and feeling about your spa ownership experience, but you have to hear that everyone, even the operating staff of this forum, would like you to lower it just a notch. 4.) It's a new year my brother, you will live longer and enjoy many more soakings in your choice of tub if you bring down your stress level... you need a man-hug. Peace Bo "comin' in for the real thing!" Darc

Apologies, you are absolutely right sir. Actually I have met one Master Salesman in my life who did me in reverse... Oh that didn't come out right. We'll skip over the exact price but for an example I was trying the same thing... I finally had him down to $1,000 and went too far and said something insulting like "Ok yeah $1,000 but what's the best you can do?" he said, ""$1,100..." I laughed ....he laughed. I tried to give him the $1,000 and he said "no really now it's $1,100 that's the best I can do" ...I had to pay him the $1,100. There's still a few days left in the Christmas season Diamondg, here's my last ounce of Christmas spirit <insert 1 oz spirit here> ...go easy on a brother, you may want him staying in business next year when you want some advice or warranty service... maybe he'll have an ounce of Christmas spirit left too and give you some freebies. You can't put a price on Goodwill Bo "Santa is wathcin'!" Darc

Thanks for the link! I have a DownEast Exeter and think it's perfect. Master Spas is often bypassed in this forum when making recommendations and I think you nailed it on the head. The borderline marketing casts a veil of doubt over an otherwise well designed tub at a great price. Another thing that is mentioned is how they claim to have 72 jets when in fact they are claiming that each master blaster foot nozzle is 12 (X2 = 24 in my case) jets... when in reality it's one mega jet. The sad point is the master blaster foot jets are the best thing about the spa! Somehow they have managed to take the best part of the tub and make it sleazy salespitch BS. Someone needs a little smack down at Master Spa HQ We looked at alot of spas and ours was a fraction of the cost (floor model at the fake show) and had the best design, features and function. It was a no-brainer! After looking for several months at all of the other brands we bought it on the spot. It's good to have a chance to say what's good... the product itself ...too bad about the presentation.

Everything is more in metropolitan areas because overhead (everything!) is higher. Don't balk at a couple hundred bucks to get what you want. Get the new tub. It's the end of the sales quarter. Go in make your deal, and when he says "no way!" walk back out the door. You may make it home before he calls you on your cell to say "Ok ok..." He has to sell that tub before the end of his tax year to write it off his taxes. He'll take anything you're ready to pay, trust me. All you have to do is be prepared to walk out nonchalantly when he says "no" with a "yeah I think I'm gonna have to wait, that's all I can afford and I really want the 2008..." Bo "no I'm really not Bill Shatner" Darc

Well said... From the fact that there hasn't been a huge discussion on all the spa fires all of these long-time spa experts have (not!) witnessed, it's easy to say this was a freak accident. However allowing a teenager to get near anything is risky (joke!) Congrats on your LUCK in being home to contain the fire, and avoid any serious loss!!!! Wow! ...that being said. I would have a solemn discussion with your PDC dealer, who is likely NOT sleeping too well. Now is the time to make a sweet deal. Not to take advantage of his mounting guilt... ok ok to take advantage of his mounting panic, his best defense is to hook you up with another tub. Maybe something bigger for the same price, or something with more features. Maybe he carries another brand? If I was him I would be falling all over myself to make sure you were the happiest man on the planet...wow that didn't come out right, I mean in terms of your next choice of spa. Don't be such a Boy Scout as to let him off the hook too easily. He'll actually feel better and perhaps be in a better legal positive if he hooks you up a little extra deal. You'll both sleep better! You sound like a man of conscience and have no intention to sue, but it is implied in the loss of property. Your insurance will pay you and file for damages on their own with the manufacturer, the dealer, the electrician, and everyone else that touched your installation. That's why they all have (liability) insurance. Choosing a PDC brand spa might not seem too bright, but your endorsement by accepting another PDC spa as a replacement demonstrates your confidence in the product line during this legal process, and shows your agreement that indeed this was a freak incident... for that you should not feel guilty perhaps getting a few extras from your PDC dealer. Quid pro quo. If he does not offer or balks at the suggestion... get another brand spa. Make Ethical sense? That would be my only motivation to stick with PDC. Best of luck! Oh wait you are fully stocked in the luck dept.

I won't attempt to answer all of your questions as I am not the water guru in bromine town. Just to get the answer wagon rolling lets talk about your filters. It's good you ordered another set as you can immediately replace the dirty ones with clean ones and be right back to soaking. Cleaning your filters is removing the oil and minerals and organic matter that has managed to cling. I can't imagine a hose in Wintertime can do the same job as the same hose in summer, solely based on temperature. Unfortunately your kitchen sink sprayer does not have the force needed to bust off all the unmentionable junk on your filters... what to do? I use my dishwasher but I still blast off the filters with the garden hose (jet nozzle!) first. I think the dishwasher works because it just keeps working them over with hot Cascade... not necessarily the best solution, just the easiest one. So I would recommend you blast them off outdoors with your hose then bring them in for a soak (also easy!) I use a 5 gallon paint bucket... available from your home store without any paint. There are two types of pool-spa filter cleaner, and it sounds like you read my post which offers a third and fourth. The over the counter pool and spa filter cleaners either come as a spray or a concentrated liquid soak. They are different, read the directions. I like the spray stuff as I use it to clean lots of other stuff too like my car tires (listed on the label!) powerful stuff! However I don't think it works as well in the chronically funk-tified filter dept. The concentrated cleaner allows for an overnight submerged bucket-style soak, and when my filters were at their worst this was a great help. If you read my post I mentioned using a Calcium Lime removing bathroom cleaner. Another suggestion was use pool acid (muriatic) at a 20:1 ratio ...20 parts water, one part acid, as a soak to burn off any hard-core calcium deposits. The previously mentioned over-the-counter cleaner types easily remove the oils and organics and *normal* calcium, and the Lime Away or acid soak are only intended for clogged calcified filters. Oh and never mix any of these together, and thoroughly rinse your filters at the end of any cleaning treatment. I think the dishwasher methods works because it thoroughly cleans them every time and doesn't allow for any build up. Most directions for filter maintenance I have read say to simply rinse the filters weekly and then soak them monthly (or bi-monthly). I think just blasting them with an icey garden hose gets the loose stuff and leaves any oils and calcium behind. Once *mine* were at the critical point, the regular cleaning methods were not 100% successful in one try. The one that would have worked, if I had been persistent, was the soaking over night concentrate+bucket method... although it may have taken 3 nights (on the second night the filters looked clean but I was still getting cloudy, milky water the next AM). I was leery of the pool acid soak as I am leery of concentrated pool acid, but that would probably do excellently. The instructions on this forum were to soak (20:1 dilution) until it stopped bubbling... which is very likely NOT overnight. Use care so as to not look into your bucket and find fully dissolved filters, and don't handle pool acid unless you know what you're doing (safety first!) and employ all appropriate safety measures. Oh and never listen to me as I am not a spa professional

try the automotive section. I like the brand at Target (VROOM). They work great on your car... actually they work great on everything. Microfiber is like fine terry cloth that has used a rubbery core to wrap with absorbent cotton, so while it looks like a washcloth it's grippy and pulls dirt off of everything. Try using them right out of the washing machine while they are barely damp. The only drawback to microfiber is that it is sooo grippy dirt goes in permanently and it's hard to get it to release. Therefore the advice from Tiny to not use fabric softener... it permeates the microfiber and makes it way less absorbent. I even bought a microfiber mop (Rubbermaid)... amazing. Don't even bother trying to clean the things just toss them in the washer... so when you see the big stack of them in the automotive section, get 'em, you're gonna need alot They have a box of 3 at the bedbathbeeyond... and those were the worst. I also found a big fluffy one and that's perfect for drying the dog... even the dog loves 'em ...uhh what forum am I on?! Oh yeah, they make fast work of that crusty spa rim!

You have come to exactly the right place and all the above is good advice. It may be much simpler as the non-chlorine shock he is over-using causes sensitivity in some people. There is some discussion on this board that indicates with close monitoring of your exact "combined" and "free" chlorine levels, that non-chlorine shock may be unnecessary. It does have a targeted purpose to break down organic matter that may not get broken down by the chlorine, but it is important to understand non-chlorine shock is NOT a sanitizer. If he was indeed suffering chemical or biological effects from the spa water you can minimize that with proper water maintenance. As advised, you should both read some of the advice from the professionals on this forum (NOT me!) For example I have switched to 3 oz. of name brand unscented bleach daily, after we get out of the tub, and by the next day the water is crystal clear and the majority of the chlorine has dissipated... that means I can enjoy sanitary water and a low level of chemicals (I also have an ozonator and a mineral add-on filter). Keeping the pH in the proper range is important for the sanitation effects of chlorine to be at their maximum, and for obvious reasons this would also be beneficial for one's healthy urinary tract. Getting in the hottub while you have an ongoing infection is probably not wise, no matter what quality of spa water is involved. Follow the advice of a real Doctor, not me. You might also request from your Doctor to have a Diabetes Type II test performed. Chronic urinary tract infections can result from sugar in one's urine. This can be a difficult diagnosis as there are varying degrees of severity of Diabetes II, and you must request the specific test. I don't think you should be confused and think the hottub is giving anyone a urinary tract infection. People swim in much more biologically intense water (lakes and rivers?) I think other factors like the heat in the hottub may more of the problem once he is *already* suffering, but again that is an uneducated, intuitive guess (plus I read Biggz link) hehe It makes more sense to drink more water, than to just sit in it Being more prone to these problems is a natural part of aging, and likely has more to do with prostate health and kidney stones than spa water "bugs". The worse thing is he could be told he has to give up coffee and beer! <saying a wee prayer for you here> So let us help you. #1 you can't just switch to bleach today without any other knowledge. It may require you drain your entire tub and start fresh although it sounds like you are indeed using dichlor powdered chlorinator and non-chlorine (MPS-> Monopersulfate) shock, which means you CAN switch. First get yourself a test kit so you can *know* what condition your spa water is in! No more guessing... your health is at stake! Just know that water maintenance can become very simple once it's started correctly and balanced. For me I get out and add a glug or so of bleach and once a week I add the (several tablespoons for my size spa) shock. The way he is adding shock sounds expensive if nothing else. I bought a gallon of bleach a couple weeks ago for a couple bucks and I still have some left (3 oz daily)! And if indeed he is sensitive to the ingredient in the shock (Monopersulfate) it may be possible that an irritation is enough to start an infection... meaning his cure could be his cause (!) Of course I'm no Urologist (and have zero intention to pretend to be one on the Net!), just applying some educated sense. Also remember shock is not a sanitizer, so while it burns up organic matter (killed by the chlorine?) it's not working the same as chlorine (sanitizer) and actually works to lower the level of chlorine... that means adding too much too often could be a bad thing for two reasons! So welcome to the forum, be patient and read the water chemistry section. If there's something you don't understand just skip over it and continue reading. It's a layering of knowledge and the more basics you understand, the more the confusing and seemingly complex parts fall into place. I'm oh so sure someone more professionally credentialed is about to come to your aid... not to forget the folks posting above!

Interesting... I may experiment. My skin is very sensitive to different detergents/fragrances. I have to think the scents are *somewhat* safe as they are made to wash baby diapers in...of course you're supposedly rinsing then totally in the washer, but still some of the scent remains in the article of clothing/bedding/whatever that is going next to skin. Chem geek, if I remember correctly full strength bleach is 6%? Pool Chlorine is 12-13%? and if I read correctly the scented bleach is half strength (3%)? haha I just looked at the scents again and the choices aren't too great... I can smell like pinesol, flowers, or springtime fresh ...awesome! Bo "still waiting for Clorox to make a Rosemary and Eucalyptus scented bleach" Darc

Hi Cathy All our lines are busy, thank you for holding. Meanwhile as a person with technical/mechanical ability but *not* a spa professional allow me to assist. I'm sure a real tech will be along shortly. Your aging spa is no doubt a wee bit calcified, that's no news. You want to safely free the nozzle without damaging it. Does the pump supply enough pressure to blow your finger off the jet when you plug it with your finger? Try wiggling it to break any crystaliztion buildup or general funk. Maybe something soft other than your finger to build more pressure, like a wine cork. It also sounds like you have removed it from the spa, if true you could soak it in vinegar or use some filter cleaner to soak (*not* both at the same time). Use the favorite trick of thermal resizing. Heat expands and cold shrinks, so pop it in the freezer for 20 minutes and then run the outer part under hot water while the inner piece stays icey cold... of course these suggestions only work if you can take the larger assembly out of the spa.

Blake please post this in the proper section of this forum -> "Above Ground Pools" hhehe sorry kidding... very nice ..I mean WoW! ... I really mean "I'll be right over!" Bo "Color me green" Darc

Relax Biggzy, he was referring to Soakerman. [chuckling] We love ya Biggz ..and shouts out to the soakerman. Here's a little forum hug for ya, bro {{{soakerman}}} Everyone is so free with their opinion... another day on Internet forums. Pardon my aging cynicism... the times they are a' changin' and it's not always for the best... forgive my Devil's Advocacy. Bo "Shinin' the Darc light"

true true, personally I bought a floor model at a show and got a unbeatable deal (time will tell). Buying a spa is alot like reading this thread <heh> Hey I looked at the Keys spas because I could get credit through HomeDespot and I don't think that is quite the same thing as Costco in terms of what level of service you can expect... and while they were very fairly priced, I don't think there has been much labeling of Keys spas as a "Box Store" item. In fairness to our victim...I mean the new Forum member, I reposted TinyBubbz' post so we could maybe do Mike some good, thanks Biggz for bringing up Tiny's post. And for Mike, you can search the forum for the word "insulation" and find lots of information...although reading through all the BS takes dedication, there is some excellent detailed info to be gathered. A recent post gave a great link but it was just a "look here" and might be hard to find, but should be in this top level of topics. Whittle down all the little things that can add up dollar by dollar... like leaving the air jets open when you get out. That allows your spa to suck in cold air during filter cycles and cool the water. When you get out close the little levers that add bubbles. Then there's thing like "blankets", a sheet of custom cut bubble wrap type material that lies directly on your water surface... and different spa covers etc. Hopefully you have looked at some of these topics already as you are not the only one suffering the woes of winter heating a big kettle of allegedly clear and sparkling people stew. what?

Cutting out the middle man is an overused and misunderstood theory. <snip> Well technically you got me there, because we're really talking about cutting out the last guy, the retailer, not the middleman. Kinda interesting how we bought that bill of goods, eh. I mean how did these stores ever convince us they could cut out the middleman (technically the distributor, the guy between the manufacturer and the retailer), and not have to act like a true retailer either (provide in-depth Customer Support)? This is how it used to work, and all of it was based on a working principle of "feedback" along the supply chain. Let's say there's a widget you like and it's about $25. Can you be angry when you find out the manufacturer actually sells them for $10? Well the manufacturer is in China and you want your widget today! The retailer special orders your widget from the distributor who has a warehouse in your 100 mile radius and he can courier it over to you by 3:00. For the cost incurred to anticipate your need (gamble) and pay the $10 up front to stock them in inventory he gets to make 15-25% and charges the retailer $12.50. The retailer, for the cost incurred to have a storefront in your favorite Mall (how convenient for you!) the retailer gets to double that (at minimum!) and sell it to you for $25. The Big-Mart goes to China and says, "How much will you sell this to us if we agree to buy 1 million widgets?" In absolute glee they say "$7.50!" Now Big-Mart can retail at $15 and well...anyone selling it for $25 looks like a crook. Just so you younger folk know... <rant off>

The most profitable businesses are in one place... the Mall. That is because it has the most foot traffic, etc. It's also the most expensive overhead (rent). See many spa dealers in the new big local Mall? You might see them in the outlying malls (read: cheaper!), but never next to a Neiman Markup... you know why? They don't make enough money. I don't think anyone's getting rich selling spas. Who *are* the richest people in the country? The owners of W-mart... I think most of all YOU should shop where you think "FAIRNESS" is being served. Personally I'd rather support my neighbor staying in business... at what cost? well we'll work that out like gentlemen. Since when did the lowest price equal the most fairness? If you believe anything fair is happening at a W-mart, then you aren't looking close enough. Cutting out the middleman is a failed strategy ...well it works on the 24-pack of paper towels. I think people are sick and tired of no customer support. Choose wisely as every dollar you spend is a vote of how you want YOUR future to be.

It occurred to me that many folks are switching to unscented bleach as a chlorinator for their spa. Mixed with the aromatherapy question is seemed obvious that *perhaps* using the scented bleach would be possible. I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THIS. I also went online and found the answer on Clorox's web site <click me> turns out they are not recommending it either!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`quote~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Q. Do Clorox® Bleach Citrus Blend, Mountain Fresh and Fresh Meadow® and Clorox® Splash-less Liquid Gel bleaches disinfect? A. Our fragranced and Splash-less Clorox® Bleaches are not registered disinfectants. If you need a registered disinfectant, you can purchase Clorox® Regular-Bleach at almost any store that sells laundry products. Make sure that "Disinfects" or "Kills germs" appears on the label. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`end quote~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ...still curious, but wary of any fragrance that can sit in a bottle of pure clorox and survive (!!?!!) since my fragrances disappear as soon as I add chlorine. Where's that chem geek when you need him?

Well this shouldn't digress into a W-mart discussion but I defy you to find an *exact* model# of ANY thing sold at W-mart at another store... try ...seriously. You can PM me any results. Like I said it's a dirty little secret as manufacturers must supply W-mart and other stores. Try say electronics or fishing reels, anything with a precise model number. You're gonna find out that the beloved W sells alot of singular-model bottom-of-the-line not-made-in-the-USA products. You and I are in total agreement, but the real matter is that spas are like cars and people don't pay the same prices for them (exact same car) either. It's a hard-core big-ticket market-driven customer arena and not like say... computer sales where precise side-by-side comparisons can be easily made. Spa sales has more room for BS and emotional/impulse decision. I mean Master Spas high end tubs utilize magnets as a selling point! I can't wait until therapeutic magnets are available for the seat of my car (please let us not start THAT discussion ) The tactics are unfair on both ends... like the guy who wastes the dealers time by having the dealer wet-demo the spa that eventually gets bought at the discount place. Fairness doesn't factor in very well from either direction. I didn't want to hijack this thread which has alot of merit. I think most people work hard to avoid "buyers regret", like researching things online before they buy. I have seen many postings here reflecting exactly that... "what model should I buy?" I think we are seeing some buyers regret when we see someone who bought a tub that was cheaper in the short run, but turned out to be poorly insulated (a manufacturers cost cutting move to be sure!) and therefore more expensive in the long run. The power of this forum is delivering the FIX! Exactly how and where to insulate. That's good stuff. I don't see anything wrong with getting a cheaper tub and adding insulation or perhaps expecting more DIY repairs. The saying is "...it takes what you make" and luxury items like hottubs ...I think people spend as much as they can afford... and I'm an certain there is a dealer out there to give you a hand doing just that.

I would defer to TinyBubbles advice and just use a white towel to blot it on there. Remember to be careful with bleach, a weak solution will be safer for your clothes and the spa cover ...just leave it on there a little longer. Nothing will work better than a nice powerful stream of water to blast it off (and clean your spa filters!), so if you need one go buy a new hose nozzle from the HomeDespot... something with a "jet" option<click me> The cover lift was mentioned because it might make cleaning your cover less of a simple or obvious task, that's all.

Remember this is the portable spa section so you might repost this in the pool section to get help with the in-ground questions. I was going to make a joke and say you can remove your in-ground spa with a large pile of dirt, but then I got confused on why you would prefer an above ground hottub to an in-ground solution. Doesn't your pool circulate through your spa (same water?) You obviously have a plumbing problem (cracked PVC or rusted metal), but I guess fixing it means demolishing the spa. Adding a separate Spa will add additional water maintenance... oh wait, that's it right? you want to soak in the Winter... OK I just got up to speed. Hmm I'd guess it'd be a couple/three grand to repair the in-ground spa? ...buuut this would be your chance to new and improve it or modify it's in-ground location. I guess that would depend on your party-load (lotsa teenagers?)... to justify an in ground (closed in Winter) repair job AND an above-ground spa now. Most of these decisions have to be passed by the Mrs. therefore make some good common $en$e. So tell her you need to soak NOW (shell out dough for spa immediately), and can fix the in-ground spa come May... then when the time comes you can fix or bury your in-ground spa. The "Now and Later" plan. Remind her how many friends and family will be able to soak come summertime... I mean it could be like the "little table" at Thanksgiving, and have one spa for the adults and another spa for the kids. haha it just strikes me it's your wife you have to sell whatever solution you choose... pardon my man-tuition

I get confused when anyone asserts that a business person is guilty of something when they make a profit. Is there really a spa dealer who is secretly rich and selling spas at cost? Most products are doubled, I don't know about spas. Out in the world everything you buy was about half the cost to the shopkeeper... is that news? C0stco and W-mart S-Club all make their low prices by cutting out the middle man, and in this case by changing some of the components (perhaps debatable) inside the spas in question... is that news? You *always* get what you pay for, how could it be any other way? When you cut out the middle man always remember who he is... If you don't have need for one, then Costco may be the way to go for you. Hey especially if it's the difference between being able to afford a hottub or not. The real dirty secret of W-Mart is that once you supply a product line to them as a manufacturer you get added to the supply-chain blacklist. Do you think I would rep a spa line that was also being sold by W-Mart or C0stco or S-Club? You'd have to be an idiot. So there's a fine line between selling an entire line and a special singular product made especially made for C0stco (pardon all the google-blocking) made to *not* kill all major line sales to retail dealers. If I was to make a guess it would be that C0stco discovered they indeed were selling a product that was in such a dire need of the support delivered by the middle-man they cut out, that they were only ending up with disgruntled customers... not a C0stco business strategy. Just reading this forum it's very apparent to me exactly the level of customer hand-holding we are talking about. That guy holding your hand deserves to get paid... as much as the market will bear. Buying and cut rate spa is buying cut rate Support... better be very handy (like me ;-))

I'm counting my blessings! I survived Christmas! How many folks will be in hot water at Midnight this New Years eve is now the question... <insert Holiday hugs here>