B0Darc

Pardon my fascination, but the manufacture of bleach is so simply goofy I am amazed. Now other than the extreme explosive and toxic nature of creating free chlorine and free hydrogen it is amazingly easy. To *oversimplify* you pass electricity through salt water and the sodium (Na) and chlorine (Cl) split and recombine with the water (H-OH or H2O) to make NaOH (lye) and free chlorine and free hydrogen. Then you bubble the free chlorine back through and you make bleach. Forgive the leaving out of all the details... like what do you do with all that hydrogen (pump it to fuel cells to make the electricity needed to make more bleach!) and all the safety you need when handling pure chlorine gas, and all the membrane technology needed to electrolyze salt water... but I feel an invention coming on... like Mr. Coffee®? Mr. Bleach. Whadda ya say chem geek, me and you hombre. Every spa should have it's own Mr. Bleach®! (hahha) and I bet mrbleach.com is not taken. <insert me taking credit for the miniaturization of the bleach manufacturing process for home pool and sap use here> ...engh another million dollar idea down the drain

That clears up that question! So that's why bleach is so cheap. Dry Lithium hypo sounds intriguing. I bet it's available in bulk for a (more) reasonable rate. Man they must make a fortune selling bleach, it must cost like a penny a gallon to manufacture. Another case of the bottle costing more than the contents! THANKS FOR THE BREAKDOWN chem geek, it's actually very interesting!

Lithium Hypochlorite does not add to calcium hardness. Only Cal-Hypo (Calcium Hypochlorite) does that. For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by 7 ppm. That is strange that you found Lithium Hypochlorite to dissolve slowly. It is supposed to dissolve quickly (I've never tried it myself, however, so maybe this is yet another industry "myth"). Perhaps it wasn't powdered enough in the brand you bought. By comparison, Cal-Hypo is known to dissolve slowly. As for cost comparison against Dichlor, see this link for a cost (for equivalent chlorine) comparison of chlorine sources including the "hidden" cost of the extra pH Up product needed for the acidic sources of chlorine. Richard Nice thread there Nat... Basically you want to switch to lithium because it's powder and that's convenient. When I tried to visualize chemically how they made Lithium Hypochlorite into a solid, it made me wonder. The expense I'm sure comes from manufacturing, as Lithium is like Sodium (and pure potassium!) soft and explosively reactive metals where water is concerned... which is how it's manufactured. Pure forms of these metals are usually stored in kerosene as they want to combine so fiercely with water that they will pull moisture right out of the air. In the case of sodium, that makes lye and hydrogen so the kerosene insulates that reaction from occurring which could obviously be problematic. Can you say boom? So after carefully mixing the sodium and water to make lye next they bubble chlorine through the lye solution to make bleach. Anhydrous lye (dry) is also very reactive, it's known as drain cleaner... something no one is putting in their hottub Of course none of this is happening in your spa! It's all happening down at the chemical plant that I am glad I don't work at I am just wondering about the level of reactivity is in powdered Lithium Hypochlorite... so I looked it up. I'm not talking about toxicity as lithium is elementally the sister to sodium and potassium. I'm referring to what you know about Sodium Hypo (just a 6% solution in bleach) from spilling some on your shirt. Turns out Lithium Hypo is very common commercially <click me> It also turns out to be available as a liquid, I have to guess that is much cheaper. Hmm it says it's used to sanitize dairy equipment... maybe you could get some at the feed store? Or online from a non-pool source. As long as you are getting a preparation targeted for food source use it should be the same (purity). My question was... do they have to add something to it to get it to a powdered form (solid)? I would expect it to be extremely soluble! Be careful not to let any water get in the canister of solid material. My next question was if they can make solid Lithium-Hypo, can they make solid Sodium-Hypo? Any price difference? See I just put these questions in chem geeks head and he also must know the answer. The goal being getting the cheapest easiest chlorine in our spas.

hhahaha You were thinkin' it... I just type it. The guy (Shakespeare?) who said "Honesty is the best policy" never owned a hot tub. I mean it's not a new concept to share a bath... culturally speaking, but those are usually moving water (spring or stream/river) powered. Sharing 400 gallons of 3 month old bath water is truly a miracle of modern chemistry... who needs flying cars, time machines, or robots doing our laundry... it's 2008, baby!! WooOT, we're in the future! ...some of us more than others Bo "Adult ADD is kinda like... oh look a bird!" Darc

In vacuum forming only one side of the acrylic sheet is contacted... the underside. In pressure forming both sides would make contact and the likelihood of marring the top surface is 100% which would require additional handling

Thanks fdegree! Your post is the one I was referring to... isn't this forum great? It's great to listen to all the granular detail from folks who already own this or that. I mean there really is no perfect solution, it's one thing or the other usually... a compromise. Like you can be advised to buy a heavier cover, but in fact it's then bulkier to take off and store. That could be a problem if you were somehow physically limited (height, strength, age?) ...and how could you foresee things like having to perhaps hosing off some scum each time... all considerations which would be key to meeting a goal of saving money or saving time etc.

Best advice from TinyBubbles... I'll have to buy you a frosty one at Fallon's next time I'm down

I was one of the people that started using Cal-Hypo (calcium hypochlorite instead of sodium or lithium) and yes it adds alot of calcium over the period of 3 month lifecycle. This could be a good thing if your Calcium hardness was low, but it also did not dissolve well for me (HTH brand).

yeah not bacteria.. it's residual soap from clothes, and fresh brand-new soap made from mixing your dead skin (oils) with chlorine... usually a little of both. It's easy to get overly imaginative thinking about spa water, but hottubbing should be all about relaxing... so relax. There are defoaming products but I believe it's a silicon type oil (simethecone) and too much can load up your filters. Defoamer is just breaking the surface tension and not dealing with the real problem. The Calcium hardness is important to test/measure/calibrate into acceptable limits, and if it's low it enhances the ability of your water to foam (make bubbles). After I have a heavy load of guests there is always foaming. Sometimes during... which can be embarrassing, but lets not get all honest with the guests as to the exact contents of spa foam. A half truth will be fine which is "It's residual soap from your suits..." ...and if they say "I'm not wearing any suit..." then you say, "would you like another Martini?" Foam? whadda we talking about foam? I just sweep it over the side. You really can get rid of most of it quickly without removing much water. It is however an indicator it's time for a nice shock treatment and filter cleaning. Another problem with adding defoamer is that it only seems to kill the fluffy shiney happy bubbles but the chunkier-funkier bubbles persist. To avoid this embarrassment be sure to get your spa extra clean before guests, or better yet just allow the fluffier soapy bubbles to hid those unsightly unmentionable ones by skipping the defoamer and just nonchalantly swoosh them over the edge. Hey we can talk right, we're friends? This also seems to happen when folks who rarely soak enjoy their first time. You know what your skin is like now and what it was like *then*, and you are now very likely *very* exfoliated. When you get in now alot less skin comes off per soak, am I right? For the overly visually imaginative don't focus on the greater quantities of exfoliation that occur when your uninitiated guests come over for their first soak... otherwise you won't make any new friends. Please feel free to internally verbalize "Damn Him!" as you sit in your new bosses "bubbles" when he finally accepts your invitation for dinner "Oh you have a hottub!?" Hey you gotta do what you gotta do... this is why God made alcohol (apologies in advance to the temperant). If you've had a few drinks and you still cannot deal with sharing bathwater with these people, just ask them to politely shower beforehand... "to remove any lotions or soap residues" <ahem> but then you'll have no excuse when their dead skin and residual chlorine start a' bubblin'! ...I'm just trying to help Bo "looking toward France and whispering the word 'Vermouth'..." Darc

You know those V8 vegetable juice commercials where the folks are not eating their vegetables and get a clonk on the head (coulda hadda V8?) Doncha just wanna clonk yourself on the head ">TwOnK!< ...coulda paid more attention in Chemistry class!" Thanks chem geek! Bo "when am I *ever* gonna need to know how to calculate mole weight in real life?" Darc

Thanks for the update lmartine... interesting original thread. There are some spa chemicals that also seem to have some coloring agents like "clarifier", but you are probably right with your copper guess. You'll probably have better luck on your next fill, just run your fill line for a few minutes prior (onto the ground/drain?) I wouldn't worry about some dissolved copper as the rest of us are trying to add small levels with our "mineral" filters. I would think a small amount of copper in the water would be beneficial in killing bad stuff like algae (don't algae tabs for pool use have copper?) I'm sure copper is toxic in large amounts, but I somehow doubt your well water is that dangerous. If your skin is fine and your water tests are fine, and there's no staining of your shell on this drain I wouldn't worry. I think some of the other well water complaints included iron which can make the water cloudy and brown and cause more of an issue with staining... just a green color shouldn't warrant worry, although of course it *is* an indicator there is something else in there beside hydrogen oxide (water!) lmartine can you provide a link for your "ecotec" filter? General Motors calls their four cylinder engine "EcoTec" and it's google-jamming me finding your inline pre-filter product. Thanks! All I seem to be able to find is an oil filter for a Chevy Cavalier!

Thanks. I was curious for a couple reasons. One is that they seem to be so sturdily on there... I mean they're down by your feet and I can't imagine how they could be easily removed... however everything is made to come apart for service, it's just some tech trick. To remove the fuzz without using your hands would likely require a shop-vac (wet dry) level of suction power and would be like swatting flies with a sledge hammer. If it's just cotton fuzz you might be able to shave off the outside visible bits with an old disposable shaver and the rest will just get sucked through... maybe just a vegetable brush?

Happy New Year, here's a bump to the top >BuMp< Sounds like a passing thought through a helpful friends (egg?)noggin? The spa bottoms I have seen are semi-permeable. It's probably more important for it to be able to dry under there than it is to have a piece of mylar trapping moisture. That's why they wrap your house with Tyvek fabric and not Mylar. The added conduction from the damp mylar might be worse that any blocked convection from it's reflectivity... other wise all hot tub bottoms would have mylar. Now the side panels may be another story! ...or another thread. Do a search on the forum for "mylar" or just "Insulation" for more in-depth technical analysis

I might agree... it's not a topic because it's not a big issue. Perhaps not something really, necessary to purchase as an extra. However I'd be tempted if I lived where it gets *very* cold. It will add to your electricity cost though. I feel the cold air for about one second on mine, then it's undetectable. Realize that the air heater won't save you any energy costs that would be increased by using the air without an air heater (which would make the water heater have to work harder)

The suction is pretty powerful... so like a leaf or something managed to get through the grate? I would guess you would have to pop them off. What manufacturer? Maybe a spa tech can give you the secret to popping them off. I've cleaned plenty of leaves etc from the outside.... curious.

This was a recent previous discussion... you may want to look below or in the Chemistry forum. One user discovered some water test indicators that said it was preventing off-gassing and effecting his pH... can't remember the particulars. There was plenty of advice like flipping it up onto itself for a half hours after adding chlorine or shock. Nothing bad that would make you NOT get a blanket, just fine tuning how it can affect the water chemistry

<passing cplarsen a cognac> If you at least have an ozonator, I have seen folks leave them for months covered. Probably be less of a cleaning necessary than what would be required for a drained spa... of course this infers it's turned on (set to 80 degrees?)

Unfortunately the only resolution for a low quality cover might be replacing, but there are things you can do. I don't know about your sanitizing routine but it doesn't seem to be too compatible with the foam in the cover (?) The smell is likely mildew and you may be able to take the foam out of the vinyl and let it sun dry. There is also advice to leave your cover off during shocking/sanitizing so byproducts of that oxidation can off-gas because they can adversely affect your cover. My manual came with a little instruction manual with the same advice along with other tips to lengthen cover life, like flipping the foam inside the vinyl cover every 6 months or so. Other people on here have also recommended putting a vinyl protectant on the TOP, and my manual recommended regular hosing off of the underside to remove any dried on chemical deposits. If your cover is dipping into the water it is obviously going to get wet, but why it's dipping needs to be determined. It *should* be relatively well sealed inside the cover to prevent that, so check to see if there is some kind of zipper failure or cut in the vinyl underside allowing steam to affect the foam. If you have the cash I would just go buy a nicer cover, or check with your spa dealer to see if he can swing you a deal to upgrade/warranty replace.

Since you likely didn't get a manual try to download one online. Go to google and enter your model number and the word "manual". The previous owner may even have one if you can still contact. Look on the manufacturers web site if you cannot get the model number information, they will also likely have a "Support" link with access to manuals in PDF format (Adobe Acrobat free reader). My hottub has 3 modes and one is "sleep" for when you go on vacation. The above advice is best and should supply a quick fix! Switching it off and giving it 30+seconds to totally power off will reset the system to default values when you flip the breaker back on... the defaults should NOT be sleep and likely about 100 degrees. Try to get you hands on that manual!

I'm with slash... My Master Spa DownEast Exeter has the greatest neck jets. I'm confused how some people describe not being able to have all the jets on or having them be too powerful etc. My Master Spa (mid grade DownEast) jets all come on and are fully adjustable from zero to skin-peeling and the shoulder jet seat has the jets over your shoulders shooting down. If you are hurting from painting the living room etc. you can put all the jets on high and be beaten into submission in 60 seconds, or turn them individually just how you like. I experienced the Sales mumbo-jumbo myself, but it's like buying a car... and all dealers are not alike. As a mater of fact I'm sure they're like snowflakes... but realize with the choice of spa you *will* be making a choice of who provides your service, so having some rapport with your dealer is a good feeling. It's like getting married... you can't just find a great gal with a crazy hooligan family... trust me on that one

Under... you'll see less of the stars but more of the significant-other. Get your priorities right! ;-) and yes the deck will be stressed with that much weight and would likely have to be reinforced. A third option is pour an additional pad in the yard and get creative with the landscape... maybe this summer. It would likely be cheaper to pour an additional 10 X 10' pad than reinforce your deck as that would include the contractor being liable for the implied guarantee that his reinforcing was in fact up to code/spec. I love looking at the stars but I am able to have both. Enjoy!

He's being honest (dealer). Unfortunately for him if you do the bleach route you can buy that anywhere for cheap. I think the bromine systems and other more expensive sanitation are great for people who want a more "automated" science-lite plan. Imagine a dealer sitting you down for a lengthy white-board session explaining all the chemistry you need to comprehend to not spend a dime at his establishment? He was being polite. Welcome to the forum! ...enjoy your (money-saving!) soaking!

You are not supposed to us bromine with your EcoPur mineral filter. Read more in the chemistry thread and you will gain some valuable information re: chlorine-based sanitation strategy... how to make it simple and inexpensive and where to get a proper test kit

The over the counter pool-spa filter cleaner spray (looks milky) was labeled to contain d-Limonene (solvent smells like orange peel) and EDTA which acts like a solvent against metals and likely calcium. Both are complex organic compounds (carbon based) so should break down easily. By design I would have to guess the d-Limonene is made to remove oils. The label says you can use it to clean lawn furniture and car tires... and it does! The soaking product did not have the ingredients so clearly listed, but I'm sure it's something similar (organic acid and solvent-surfactant)

I may start a new thread in the chemistry forum but to close out this spiraling-out-of-control thing I created re: scented bleach... well I tried it. I was in the grocery looking at the bleaches and saw that Clorox makes a Lavender bleach! That should be good... turns out no. It may do something for laundry but it does zero for your spa experience. Chem geek mentioned the scent may be durable enough to survive being an ingredient in pure bleach, but that it would likely off-gas once added to the spa. It did exactly that... it didn't last 10 seconds! It was time to shock my spa so I added quite a bit... estimating it to be half strength (does NOT say it is a disinfectant on the label per previous posting here). Plus I was experimenting with it's ability to make my spa all lavendery. Didn't work. Didn't cause any problems, it's just bleach. It's just more expensive because its not full strength only 3% not 6% like regular Clorox or no-name Ultra-bleach. Ba humbug! Well it's not like it was *made* to scent your spa... So I added like a pint of the stuff (3 oz of 6% daily = 6 oz of 3% X 3[shock] = 18 oz of 3% lavender clorox) yesterday early as a weekly shock. Left the cover off for an hour. Tested a couple times with the hand-wiff test ...smelled lots of chlorine and no lavender. Sniffed the wifey's neck this AM after getting out... no lavender *sigh* Scented bleach for spa aromatherapy? I'm a dork!