B0Darc

I have fixed tons of HotSpring tubs that were not winterized properly and froze as a result. Most of them end up being around $1000 to $1200 with the pickup, repair to plumbing, re-insulation, and redelivery. A few that were badly frozen (sat for a few years) ran up to $2000 or a little over but those ended up needing heaters and circulation pumps as well. I have an automotive lift and can repair them rather easily compared to what some of the smaller dealers may be able to do. Their labor may run considerably more time and money wise. I have recently sold some 2000, 2001 Sovereigns from $2500 to $3500 to give you an idea of what it is worth if fixed. Good luck! Wow looks like Dan is the Man, that's all you need to make a decision. I'm very generous with other people's money, but I'm the original tightwad... I'd have it fixed. You could have your local HS dealer provide you an estimate for a working leakfree tub on your property... while it's not a warranty it does state that when he's done and you have paid him it won't leak and will heat and pump water and make bubbles. If that's under $2,000 then you're ahead. Hey maybe he'll credit you towards a new spa? I'd ask that too...maybe even he has a refurb slightly newer model you like more. Good luck! Let us know how it works out for ya. I mean how can you get fully into your new house happy dance with a frozen hottub in the back.

I am having great success using bleach as my sanitizer. We get in once a day and I add bleach when I get out. When I get in each time, chlorine is at the bottom of the range which for me is fine. My water stays clear, and once every 5 days I use non-chlorine shock (MPS). When I purchased my spa with it's built in mineral filter (EcoPur) and add-on ($300) ozonator my manual states I should keep my chlorine in the 1-3 ppm range... as I have implied protection from both of these add-on bug killers... well I had constant problems with my water quality. Personally, my goal was to avoid sitting in bleach water, and other friends have had bromine which I also don't enjoy smelling, so this promise of using less chemicals was a real selling point. I am supposed to replace my mineral filter every 6 months which is expensive and recent threads re: ozonators actually state it may lower your chlorine levels, and that perhaps you'd be better off without one. One thing that seems most apparent to me is how quickly the chlorine can and does dissipate... and by design. With my glug of bleach I am bumping it to 4-5 ppm on exit and it's 1-3 on re-entry. The question is... if I only bumped it to 1-3 ppm on exit would it truly be at a safe level to re-enter 23 1/2 hours later? So, if the ozonator is speeding the dissipation of chlorine isn't it making that claim even farther from the truth? The claim that I can treat my water to 3ppm max and get in with it being at minimum 1 ppm 24 hours later and feel safe? All indications are no. chem geek's recent thread about how manufacturers are trying to get their products FDA sanctioned using add MPS before and after to boost test levels to appropriate one that will pass Gov tests are tripping my BS meter into the red. What? now I have to test my water three times a day? And add small amounts of chemicals 2-3 times a day to stay precisely within the 1-3 ppm range? why? because it's not realistic (even though perhaps *possible*?) The goal is lowered cost and reduced steps... and reduced bathing in chemicals, with the ultimate litmus test being biological safety in your spa water and the longest lifecycle before having to drain and refill. It would seem to me now, that the simplest cheapest way would NOT include a ozonator, nor a mineral filter, especially if you can access your spa daily to add bleach. I do have friends who do NOT have daily access and can successfully leave their spas for a week or so because they dose it heavily with chlorine and have ozonators/mineral add-ons... but this is not the topic. In their case it may have some real purpose, I mean ozonators and minerals add-ons are not *bad* things all on their own. I am only saying they were sold as things that could make my life easier/better and that I would be using *less* chemicals. My gripe is... is it truly possible to successfully maintain your chlorine level in such a low and tight band of 1-3 ppm with all other factors taken away... I mean is it *even* possible if you are *only* allowed *one* chemical adjustment per day. The reason I want to limit adding chemicals only once is because that is exactly what I do... once a day I add 3 oz of bleach and I AM GOLDEN. When I get in the next day I can only barely detect the presence of chlorine (and it test in the low range) and I don't have any problems with my water quality. After adding the bleach on exit the chlorine tests closer to 4-5 ppm and 23 1/2 hours later it's 1-2 ppm. So if I was only bumping it to 2-3 ppm on exit (to stay in that *promised* range of 1-3ppm in the manual) wouldn't I have to add a little shock or bleach before getting in? ...and why would I want that? I don't have test results in terms of figures but I did constantly battle cloudy water, foam etc. Now I simply add bleach once and have no complaints. I only had problems once with the new strategy when I didn't get in for a couple days during the holidays and my water got cloudy. I shocked with bleach and ran the pumps, cleaned my filters, and the next morning it was crystal clear. It seems to me that the industry is working very hard to retain some proven selling points with ozonators and mineral add-ons... I mean it worked *on* me when I had no clue about spa maintenance. ...but what are they really doing to make true the recommendation to maintain one's spa chlorine at 1-3 ppm daily, and be able to cost-effectively bathe in sanitized water without me testing and adjusting it multiple times throughout the day? I doesn't really sound better or even true once you know the facts... as a matter of fact, since I adopted the daily bleach/weekly MPS strategy I might just save $150 - $200 a year on mineral filters and chemicals, and do less work ...and enjoy more consistent water quality.

Well we just posted at the exact same time... now you're saying 7 years, and it's currently frozen. There's alot of talk about on here about dealers and as you can see you need someone with your best interests at heart. Unfortunately these are usually people you have given large sums of money too. That's just Human Nature. Another thing you said was money was not such an issue. My point was it's most important to *love* your hottub. It is a thing of joy, and if money is not a problem, I'd have to say get a new tub. Then you can fell 100% good about it, and not worry. You can get a warranty, and you will have also just bought a new long term friend... your spa dealer. Listen to these guys and they can help you find both... Bo Out...

It sounds like it's a nice tub. You only have one last question to ask yourself... "does it fit?" I mean if you had no tub at all, would you have purchased one like this? If you like it, then you should feel good you are about to get a good deal on a used tub. Listen to these guys and NOT me as I am not a spa tech nor a spa dealer... as you can see I'm more like the Dr. Phil of spas ....well maybe Dr. Phil's mildly spastic little brother One last thing to remember they don't make a spa that never breaks down and they can last for decades with proper service, so five years ain't so bad especially since all initial costs were bundled on your mortgage. Once you get in this thing you're gonna feel like a genius! After an hour on the 270 you're gonna love 20 minutes in your spa with a beverage in one hand and an arm around the significant-other. Be sure to check out the Water Chemistry part of the spa forum (Up one level), and the contributors there can make all those problems manageable too! That's your next challenge and it can be way cheaper and easy to understand and do yourself. Then instead of stocking up on a wide array of spa chemicals you can stock up on a wide array of cigars and *beverages*

I concur Dr. My manual says that if there's no circ pump then pump #1 comes on LOW at timed cycles for filtration/heat... especially noticeable on initial startup (just flipped breaker to ON) as the circ pump primes, and when no circ pump-> pump #1 comes on LOW to prime. I would have to assume the dip switch is for that option as my pump#1 also has no LOW setting, just HIGH... and of course as I said before I do have a circ pump, so when I first power ON spa, circ pump runs to prime (display reads Pr) and water only comes out of heater and ozonator holes and not any jets per se. BTW I have a Down East Exeter with Balboa controls and there are online general resources listing Balboa codes that are easily g00gle-able (balboa error codes) ...but there are no error codes for an improperly plumbed spa. Insist on a hands on visit/repair and good luck. Please come back and tell us how that went. Other people may be able to help more if you get a negative response to your request for service. Keep in mind we can only guess at your true remote configuration/situation.

I don't want to confuse you because you need information specific to your tub. My tub has a circ pump and it runs 24/7. It comes out of the heater outlet (has the collar to prevent you from blocking flow) and another hole under my spa light... that is obviously my ozonator as bubbles come out of there. I can feel the heated water coming out of the other. My understanding was it was a lower powered pump that continuously drew water through the filter... which it does.

I recently installed a new toilet and the sticker on the bowl said not to use bleach or chlorine based products to clean or it would void the warranty (?!?!) Doesn't this all sound like an automatic out come warranty claim time? I think it speaks more to the destructive nature of what can happen with liquid Chlorine regarding spills and how easily you can overdose. The powdered forms are safer for obvious reasons, but canceling warranties is ridiculous. I guess the message is hide all bleach bottles when you have to call the dealer or Spa Tech, and confess NOT your sins

Chem geek is probably right and your CYA level is blocking the sanitizing effects of chlorine which indicates it time to change the water. It might be good to think about using a flush which (according to the manufacturer) dissolves the hard to kill/reach biological layer inside your pipes etc. The flush is usually an over night thing and the water has to be to temperature. If you don't want to drain because it's too cold out now and you're worried about that, just half-drain and half-refill (no enzyme flush!), that might get ya back into the ballpark of water manageability until warmer weather. See why you can benefit from a test kit? It really can save you work... as you may have fixed your problem and need to do nothing else! and only the tests referred to above (CYA / TA / CH) can tell you if you have an unmanageable problem (drain!)

Strangely enough it's just as good in the heat. Since you are mostly underwater it regulates your body temperature somewhat in the same way hot or cold. Now of course you will likely want to set it to a lower temp like 99-100 (personal preference!) but it will be just as good in summer as winter... why it will be even cheaper to maintain that 99 degrees when it's not cold outside and the sun is beaming on the cover

It may be off in ECN mode. Press the mode switch it will display the ECN press the temp up and it should change to SLP. Press mode again and temp up and it will change to Std (Standard) then press the Light button to turn on the spa light, that selects what displays. If you flip your breaker off for filter cleaning it will reset to the default Ecn mode and you'll have to repeat Mode -> Up arrow -> Mode -> Up arrow -> "Light" button selects. That's in your manual BTW, but if you didn't get one you may likely be aboe to get one from the customer service/Support link on their web site (not Ebay, but manufacturer)

"A Nice Guy" and funny too. I don't know what that is but I want one! It looks like Le Creuset has gotten into the spa manufacturing biz I can't tell if that holds two cups or 400 gallons, but if it's 8' X 8' and can hold a couple of those man-made fireplace logs in that heat exchanger thingy, I'm sold!

Here's a bump back up to the top <nudge> This is a good question. Since the spa was factored somehow into the price of the home then really you paid zero for it... perhaps not technically, but would you have realistically paid less for the home if there was NO spa? Generally speaking a spa doesn't add value like say a pool, exactly for the reasons you have discovered. The "Human Nature" involved here is that you want a spa, but even more you want to feel good about it. You realize the warranty is gone and it sounds like you have gotten good service from an independent guy, that's good. Continually sinking money into something is the worst feeling, so your question is half emotional and half technical. On taking your spa back to Dealer HQ to fix it, you have to realize the implied warranty the dealer would be giving you by making any repair on your spa. Many folks have come before you and the "you touched it and now it has other problems... and so you're responsible" scenario has played out many times. This makes the dealer leery of helping you, unless he can take your tub and drain it and fully inspect it and fix the problem you complained about and be able to show you other imminent obvious problems in his shop... dry and ready to fix without picking it up twice. The additional cost was to do it right... to almost over-do the repair in order to defeat the inevitable multiple problems he was about to find. <Ahem> He may have even already talked to the previous owners who drained it in winter and allowed it to freeze and he secretly knows all the problems you're going to have... cracked pipes, maybe pumps etc (guessing). If you had let him take the tub he may have been able to fix everything, but it may have cost $1,500+ While that may have made you angry or annoyed, in fact it may have delivered you a working spa for $1,500. This as opposed to a new spa which can be an easy $7,000. If money is not a problem then I say buy another spa. I you felt uncomfortable I say find another dealer, but don't feel like he was trying to just charge you more money. Realize your independent tech fixed one problem but you still don't have an operational hottub... so you haven't really saved any money. In a way the dealer may have been offering you more than you were asking for, but only because he knew that *you* didn't know all the right questions to ask, or have his working experience regarding your model (or that specific) tub. If you decide to go with a new tub try selling yours on Craigslist. Be honest about the problems. Ask your independent tech if he's interested, and ask him if he'd like to deliver it to it's new craigslist buyer... it's good to grow that relationship, you never know. Dealers cannot sell refurb tubs because you cannot tell a refurb from new, and it can cast a shadow on your new products if customers speculate your new tubs could just as easily be refurbs too. Meaning the dealer may not jump at the chance to pay you top dollar for your busted tub. You could have Mr. Fixit Next door haul it off and make a great new friend/neighbor... be creative with getting it off your property and make way for your new spa, but don't think you're gonna make a buncha $$$ See? If you just focus on making yourself happy, the money can be rationalized. It's not like they tacked cash onto the sale of your house for the separate purchase of your (broken) spa, so if you manage to make a new friend out of the deal and get it hauled away for free or say maybe make a $1,000, it's better than paying any future new dealer to haul it away... but of course check when you're shopping around, it may have some scrap value for parts (electronics, pumps) and who knows what another individual dealer would give you for it... but would you buy a replacement electronics board from a guy you know is scrapping out 5 year old tubs for parts? Try Craigslist.org and look at used spas for sale to get a feeling for your situation. Since I bumped you to the top, maybe these guys can give you a dealer recommendation for your area. Can you give us your closest major city?

true true but are you a Salesman for your own company? These are small independent retailers and they are their own salespeople, so if you are a salesman for a larger (larger than 1!) company then the comparison is not so clear... I feel for ya tho. You are buying a luxury item as people are looking down the barrel of a recession. It's not you. Don't buy on price alone, because in the end it's gonna be you and the spa... and that dealer. Go back with your bathing suit and a check book, but if he just isn't gonna back down... hnmm take it more as a point of the immediate state of Economics and not personally. The goal really is to get the hot tub that's gonna make you happy, get you laid (even if you're married), and that you will feel good about long term. Bo "did I just say 'get you laid' in my outside voice?" Darc

Darwinian Congrats! You win... and it's no simple feat. Being a long term business is very complex, and 21 years (!) of sole ownership is equal to a dual PhD. in business... you da' MAN! I have had several rants on here about people claiming that spa DealerX worked them over on their $deal$, and it's a constant topic on here... "what's a good price range for..."? Looks like even giving great service is not enough. It may be said that the guy who just closed doors was perhaps too nice and maybe gave too good of a discount ...a business must be profitable in the long term. I mean he didn't give any of those customers a great deal if he didn't make enough money to stay in business and be around for warranty claim time... but I am oversimplifying. The real profit margin for most things in the retail world are closely held secrets, but it has to be known that every dollar the small retailer gives you as a discount comes directly out of his pocket. If he does that too many times then he's toast. Spa sales must be very seasonal with fat times and lean times (summer/winter?) Add the cyclical nature of the economy ...you have a few slow summers and you're toast... hell one slow summer. I think folks should cry like babies if they are NOT getting what they paid for, but I have lost patience for tears about how much profit so-and-so is making. Spas especially, are a luxury item and the market determines price... and survivability of Dealers. Somehow Chas I'd guess you weren't the cheapest guy to buy from, however I'd say all those people who therefore "paid too much" at your establishment are very likely glad you are still around when they need you. I think longevity constitutes proof of your fairness... and not how low you can drop your price. And I bet if you asked them if they'd like $500 bucks back each in exchange for you closing your doors too... well we both know they take back the $500 and curse your cheatin' name <hhah> but if they were smart and maybe thought about it differently ...like every time they bugged you for some free advice about their water quality, they'd say "Naah Chas, my man, YOU keep the $500..." ...and NO I am not a spa dealer, not even close... Sounds lonely at the top <please send my free spa to P.O. box... [edited]>

True True When analyzing a process you should keep to the base number of steps and the cost. The autopilot is somewhat expensive... I mean that would keep you in Clorox for years! and unless it made it cheaper and simpler, how could that be better? Very, interesting however. I am open to comparing the steps involved in daily/weekly water testing/treatment between an "Autopilot" unit and simple daily-bleach/weekly-MPS strategy. One of the most important goals of this forum is removing the confusion and dread of what it takes to easily maintain one's spa water quality.

Tsk... yeah... geee... I dunno if you got the right tub. Good thing it's big enough for all of *us* to invite ourselves up! Send pics and let us know when the water is at 102. We will all give our in-person evaluation as soon as you have it all setup and the champagne is chilled... have your people call my people. Will we have to chopper-in (Saskatch)? Heli-spa'ing hhaha! Congrats! I'm just kidding (no I'm actually serious ) enjoy!!!! Look forward to some pics

This was a previous thread which got very technical. In fact if oversimplified this is close to how liquid chlorine is manufactured, and a Salt Water Generator turns your pool/spa into a Mr.Chlorine... I repeat:oversimplified. Thanks to Chris W for this very interesting product link for the"Autopilot" SWG for spas! <click me> This was from a thread discussing Lithium Hypo which went granular on the manufacture processes of different sanitizers in the Chemical Forum above. There were multiple replies but very few views... I thought it was fascinating, you guys should read it some time when you can't sleep. Shout outs to chem geek and Chris W, good lookin' out Chris (Autopilot), and thanks, as usual, to the chem geekster for delivering the granular facts. Click here and check it out

Sometimes "deals" can be deceiving. Some dealers pad the price and then drop it to make the customer feel they've found a great deal. This appeals to the “hagglers” but often it gives a false feeling of “victory” to the customer. Other dealers determine the average price they need to stay in business and charge that to everyone. This method can be a turnoff to some people who feel they need to haggle (I know, my mother would haggle over the price of a roll of pennies at the bank) but if it is done the proper way is best for most. hahhaha Don't worry too much about the price just yet. For some products "price sells", but you just said yourself that you understood the complexity of what is about to happen. There is alot of wisdom on this board and you sound smart enough to filter out what you need to know. Realize you will likely own this longer than you own a new car and get an addictive amount of joy from the thing. So much joy that when it's broken you will be in a bad place... emotionally, spiritually, and physically. You will chant the mantra we have all claimed as our own (repeat after me) "I *must* soak". When my spa had a tiny problem I found myself in the shower trying to simulate the spa experience with the shower massager wand... not happening (!) This means that if ever your spa ceases to function, you will feel an incredible urge to have it return to fully functional as soon as possible... so as to get your soaking "fix". That means you need someone who cares... about you ...and your little spa problem <ahem> Strangely enough we call them DEALERS *cough* and they are your friend in these times of need. You will want a dealer to rush over to your house as soon as he can and offer a speedy resolution. So your first steps are to find which dealers are local that are open to allowing you and yours to get in the spa while it has water and bubbles. Wet testing is good, it brings you closer to the feeling that you know exactly what you are about to drop 8+ grand on (Taxes tags delivery chemicals steps cover electrical hook up and concrete pad/deck champagne) Buyers remorse = reduced "Joy of Soaking". When you have a couple models that have proven that potential joy-ishness these folks will help you get a better deal. For now focus on the things that have reduced others joy. Things that have caused that remorse... "we didn't wet test and now she hates it and won't get in..." "..she found she floated in that model" "I'm a NBA, is there a spa for someone 7' 2"?" and then move to the technical issues like jets and filtration, and do NOT worry about water chemistry. Read about that now in the neighboring Water Chemistry section above. Most of all remember that Dealer fellow. He needs to be chosen just as wisely... you might need him one cold and foggy night come January 2009, is he gonna be there for ya?

Well the rest of us can't grow oranges in our back yard (heh) and now that orange juice is twice as expensive as gasoline I have discovered the joys of Mango juice. You can find it in the Spanish foods aisle, and it actually seems to have more nutrition than orange juice (lotsa vitamin A and C) It was a drink featured on the F00d Network, so I didn't invent it, and you may even be able to order it at a bar. It's called a Mañana-tini. It tastes awesome but is very close to being a girlie umbrella drink, so only order in close company, or mix at home, lest ye Man-card get yanked (ARrrgh! <Pirate voice>). If you're watching sugar/calories you can substitute diyet (the word d1et gets filtered!) ginger beer(Pirate runs for exit)... or just make 'em strong Nothing is more thirst quenching... even without any alcohol [chuckling] TinyB recalled them as nana-tinis ...that is closer to the truth, this *is* something your Nana would drink, but don't let that stop you from trying them. I make them for everyone, and while many wrinkle their face at the recipe ("what the hell are you making?!") they 100% come back for more. The trick is a strong ginger beer... which you add *after* shaking ice/juice/alc lest ye be swabbing Mañana-tinis off tha deck Mate! ...electrical issue? what? spa problems? Mañana-tini... oh yeah

Stick around Lys! You are very funny... I *will* be stealing that Forrest Gump crow bit... that's good stuff. All of your stuff was good. Congrats on the Happy Dance! Oh and if you like Margheritas try 1/2 Mango juice, 1/2 Ginger *beer* (use something strong like Maine Root, not just ginger ale) and 1/2 half Vodka/Rum/or TaKillYa... or you could just do like TinyB does and mix 1/2 Grey Goose with 1/2 Grey Goose and then 1/2 Grey Goose... then open the jar of olives and smell them...and shake/pour {{group hugs!}}

Oh... ok they do? They are obviously bad then. Thanks. <breathing into paper bag> Bo "I go Commando!" Darc

Golly, I confess, I'm a spa dealer in No. Va (not really heh) and I make over $150,000 a year selling these darn thangs. I just moved here with my wife and two kids and we're gonna buy a house... but wow the (fixer-upper!) house we want is $400,000 and they want an $80,000 (20%) down payment... looks like we're renting for a couple years... I sell a spa a week and make $3,000 a week before taxes. My rent for a 3 bedroom townhouse is $2,000 month... and I like cable TV internet, and things like electricity, phone and indoor plumbing, so that's an easy $2,500 total... got a nice car for the Mrs and family, and a big truck to deliver spas, insurance and gas, that's another $2,500 so we're up to 5 grand... My store's pretty nice it's a (very) cozy 2500 sq feet so I don't have all of my spas on display, and it's out in the County so it's an affordable $2,500 month. I sell alot of chemicals and I have spas and parts, and accessories that I stock in the store, in inventory, but thats a separate storage rental space at about $800 month. Out of my 4X$3+K= $14K a month I pay about 28% federal income tax, 7% VA state tax, and about 7% self employment tax (Self employed equivalent of your FICA). so out of my $168,000 (12 X $14K monthly) I take home about $100,000 after taxes. Oh and I like to eat food and go to an occasional restaurant and movie and that's $1,000 month. So let's recap my most basic budget... leaving off of course things like Dr. visits, nail and hair appointments for the Mrs. etc. Annual income after taxes $100,000 (I'm rich!) 12 X $5,000 for rental townhouse and 2 cars = $60,000 (!? I really need to drive a crappier car) 12 X $3,300 business overhead for storefront and inventory storage rental = $39,600 (please don't nitpick how much my taxes would actually be by deducting the store rent etc.) Oh wait... what happened to my food budget? uhm my savings for that down payment? Kids going to college? ...dentist? $150,000 used to be alot of money... and these are real figures, not exaggerated in the least. You wonder why spa guys want to do shows? It takes SO MUCH ($$) to stay in business in any business... and it's ALL money you RIPPED off from customers. Any one who doesn't understand how the world really works, here's the look behind the veil. Dealers probably have to sell 2-3 spas a week to scrape by... I mean a $425K 3 bedroom is very nice... and TV and Internet access and food and heat shouldn't be viewed as something the greedy wallow in... it's what we have all come to expect as middle class. A spa is a luxury item... like say a boat. No one needs a spa to survive and it's a market driven price. A great example might be a Z-06 Corvette. If you look at the recommended retail price they look relatively affordable, but they are always sold over the sticker price because they are in limited supply and the demand is high. The market will bear the price increase. Are Corvette dealers ripping off the customer? Some would say yes, but the real proof is in the pudding. If the guy in that BBB forum posting didn't think that spa he bought was a good deal he could have walked, but in truth he was happy to pay that price until he discovered he *could* have gotten it for less. He only had remorse when his buddy proved to be a better negotiator... tears on my pillow! Psssst the real secret is that this is exactly the reason you never really get the unvarnished Truth about anything, or have the secrets of the retail/wholesale world revealed. It seems to me that you want Mr. SpaDealerMan's children to not go to college or the doctor. He should live in a trailer and drive a rusty truck to deliver spas. Sigh*** It's the new Millennium baby, and a thousand bucks is lunch money. As your punishment you must tip all restaurant staff 20% for the month of January... because they do live in a trailer and drive a rusty truck, and you must go into your Spa dealer's storefront and give the owner a big hug... ok ok you don't have to hug him, just buy some dichlor or something.... don't hate. Bo "Can't we all just make a living?" Darc

OH MY GOD!?! Somebody makes $150,000 a year!?!? ...and they're running ads on TV in No. VA.? You guys are KILLING ME! Did you know a family of four that makes under $140,000 in Northern VA qualifies for housing assistance? SERIOUSLY. Everything ...no I mean EVERYTHING you buy is half price or LESS wholesale to the dealer/retailer (except food). The owners of W-mart are the richest people in America, and no one sells for less. Greed and profitability do not necessarily go hand in hand with unethical, conscience-free business practices. If a spa dealer buys a spa for $3,000 and sells it to you for $6,000 and the "retail" sticker said $7,995 then he is running his business like EVERY other business on the PLANET EARTH....get over it, sheeesh. It's not 1978... it's 2008. The median price home in No. VA for a 2,000 Sq ft 3 bedroom is $425,000. How is anyone supposed to survive that makes LESS than $150,000 a year? ...especially in Metropolis. The only thing that could be unethical would be to take peoples money and not give them any service after the sale... tons of people are guilty of that in every line of work... buyer beware, and never pay what's on the sticker, and choose your spa dealer carefully... and your car dealer ...and your dentist ...and

Gosh I think you splashed some sense on this thread. I agree, personally I think hottubbing is escaping television and starring at stars and loved ones. While you are sitting at work, thinking about what it will be like to have a hottub it seems to make sense and looks cool and you anticipate all the coolness... in reality, soaking is very relaxing and TV doesn't fit into that so well... I mean, I would have to open my eyes and stop trying to touch my Mrs in her secret place, feel me? So a sound system is one thing, but a TV may go unwatched! For what they charge you to add a stereo you can add your own. If you have a high-end system inside you can set up your speakers to that, and as far as outdoor sturdy electronics (CD player/Radio?) uhh duh it's a car stereo. It's hard to spend over a couple hundred bucks... and it would be an ideal application for a satellite radio ...and of course you would need a 12V power source (easy!) Speakers could mount under the eaves of the house or someplace other than the corners of your spa (Make stands with electrical conduit?) And if it's a patio just use a boombox

Sheeesh do I have to do *everything*?! Look here's a DIY bathroom plasma TV example of how to do your own flat panel splashproof install... please realize i *know* they make spas with this stuff built-in, and when talking about risking several grand's worth of high-end electronics... well this is where warranties really shine! Meanwhile for us handy folks... http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/hm_rm_bathro...5093_02,00.html