aschwartz

Alex, I would think you would want to start with new filters. Too much work to take a chance recontaminating the tub. Parawood I also would highly recommend new filters. Contaminated filters will re-infect your spa.

NO, you cannot just use bleach. You NEED CYA in ALL pools and spas, indoor and out, period! Without it, the Chlorine will be TOO strong. That fact sheet has some misinformation. Chem geek can give you a detailed explination. CYA should not be used in a spa or any indoor water body. It is very much under debate for outdoor applications and is now banned in New York State commercial pools with many other states are seriously considering siginificant restrictions. At a recent water conference, it was recommended that no more than 20ppm used outdoors if at all. All the research surrounding CYA did not consider bacterial biofilm in the water. Biofilms can absorb significant amounts of Free Available Chlorine out of solution rendering it undetectable and ineffective. The bacteria biofilms grow as the water temperature increases which further reduces FAC and increases Combined Chlorine. Check out this website; http://www.erc.montana.edu/ Without understanding the effect of the biofilm on the water, one could inaccurately assume that the UV from the sun is degrading all the chlorine.

I believe in the saying that "if it ain't broke don't fix it" so if your method is working keep at it. I would beg to question you about never having biofilm. Scientist will tell you that bacteria and biofilm are every where in our environment. Did you know that the tarter on your teeth is a form of biofilm. Have you ever had the ring around your spa at the water line? Have your ever had a calcium build up on the spa surfaces? Calcium is not sticky so then what is it sticking to? Have you ever had a foamy spa? Red eyes, dry skin, unpleasant odors caused by chloramines? How about water clarity issues? The chances are that 80 to 90% of these issues are biofilm related. Check out this website; http://www.erc.montana.edu/ The spa manufactuers begin the contamination process when they wet test every spa they build. Even brand new pumps and heaters are wet tested. The brand new spa shown on our website wwwcwsnaturally.com had never been used when we flushed it for this video. The spa company now uses our system in their plant that has led up to a 90% reduction in biofilm formation. This "new and improved" thing has been treating water for centuries in Northern Minnesota and Southern Canada. The Vikings stored their food in it for long voyages. The Native Americans used it for wound dressings and to pack their babies in. The Red Cross harvested it in Minnesota during WWI to use for wound dressings before the invention of antibiotics. Pathogenic bacteria, the majoity of whom live in biofilms, still kill 500,000 people in the US every year according to a July article in Discover Magazine: http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jul-aug/1...earchterm=Slime This species of sphagnum moss is nature's way to treat water and is the only truly "green" option in this industry. It is amazing how it effects water quality while reducing the work it takes to care for your pool or spa.

That's correct. I edited my post. I said below 20ppm, but that is incorrect. My test kit lowest reading is 30ppm and the dot was barely visible at this point. So I presume my CYA was between 20 and 25ppm. Now I will use dichlor for 3 days and test again. I am new to this forum but I am at total loss. There is no reason to have CYA in a spa. CYA was introduced because it supposedly shielded chlorine from UV degradation. This claim has now been challenged and no solid research, publications, or patents can be found supporting this UV schielding effect. Multiple state health departments have banned or severly restricted CYA usage in outdoor commercial pools at this point. One fact about CYA that is not in debate is it act as an oxidation retardent. Why would we want to retard the oxidation/sanitization process of chlorine. Every instruction manual tells the user to add more sanitizer when adding CYA!!! I has checked spas where the user was have clarity and chlorine reading problems and most of them had high levels CYA. Even at 20 to 30 ppm of CYA, chlorine retardation is taking place.

Most if not all the traditional explainations about Free Available Chlorines, Total Chlorines, Combined Chlorines, chlorine demand, and chloramines has been overlooking the most important factor effecting pool and spa water contamination called biofilm. Scientific research going on at Harvard, Stanford, and especially Montana State University (http://www.erc.montana.edu) over the last 15 years have proven that biofilms absorb chlorine out of solution rendering them ineffective. The more biofilm the more absorption and there is no way to measure the level of biofilm contamination. Spas at 98 to 101 degrees are prolific biofilm producers. Biofilms exist where ever there is bacteria and a water surface interface or in other words everywhere. This continuing research has also proven that conventional treatment methods discussed in this forum do not penetrate let alone eliminate these biofilms where 99% of the bacteria exist and thrive. There are ungoing studies that show that biofilms are the major source of chloramines. Chloramines are what create the unpleasent smell, bad taste, red eyes, dry skin, and most of the skin irritation. This occurs because biofilms spread throughout a water body by breaking off in streamers and clusters. If these streamers or clusters have absorbed the chlorine from the solution, which most of them do, the chlorine combined with the organics of the biofilm structure meet the definition of a chloramine. Eliminate biofilm and the chlorimine and/or combined chlorine level becomes much more managable. The first step to dealing successfully with water management issues is understanding bacterial biofilms and the miultitude of problems they create. For example, the bathtub ring that pools and spas get are a result of biofilms.

Allan, I read through the publicly available scientific research and I agree with you that it is a good source of information, but you can't make a leap that spa problems are due to biofilms. If there is high chlorine demand, then that is one thing and may be due to biofilms in some situations (especially if sanitation has been spotty), but many spa issues aren't related to high chlorine demand. No one here on this forum pushes throwing chemicals to solve problems. If you've read Nitro's guide to spa maintenance you would see that it is very simple -- you set it up once at the start and can then go for many months without water issues primarily just by using bleach (after initially using Dichlor for a week or so). In swimming pools, there are many different kinds of problems, most of which have absolutely nothing to do with biofilms. The most common cause of excessive chlorine demand is a low FC/CYA ratio (i.e. active chlorine or hypochlorous acid level) that allows algae to grow faster than chlorine can kill it and this is often due to continued use of stabilized chlorine (Trichlor, Dichlor) that build up the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level. Biofilms are rarely an issue in residential pools, though in commercial/public pools using sand filters (and more rarely in residential pools with sand filters) there can be biofilms and the associated channeling in such filters. There are over 20,000 pool owners at The Pool Forum and over 10,000 at Trouble Free Pool who manage their pools using primarily only chlorinating liquid or bleach (or an SWG system) at very low cost and with clear beautiful pools. My 16,000 gallon pool, shown here costs me only $17 per month in 12.5% chlorinating liquid and a very small amount of acid. No one here nor on these other websites are promoting dumping lots of chemicals in the pools to solve problems. I don't use algicides, phosphate removers, or any other chemicals nor do I need to regularly shock the pool. The key is to avoid problems in the first place by properly setting up and then maintaining water chemistry, circulation, etc. Richard Bacteria and bacterial biofilms are everywhere in our enviornment according to every recent publication I have read.(http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jul-aug/17-slime-city-germs-talk-each-other-plan-attacks/?searchterm=Slime) I would venture that if there was a test for biofilm, most if not all of the pools and spas have some form of biofilm in them right now. As you rightly pointed out, most of these pools might not be causing problems for their owners and I am glad for that because I want this industry to flourish. I can tell you that I have yet to flush a spa that doesn't exibit a biofilm discharge even for operators that are dilligent in their chemistry maintenance. This Cyanuric Acid discussion is a classic case of the cure being worse than the problem. We believe that the free chlorine absorption that scientist now attribute to biofilm was mistakenly totally diagnosed as UV degredation. Then CYA was introduced without any solid research or patents and this whole industry adopted as fact that CYA shields the chlorine molecule from UV.The chemists outside of the pool and spa industry look at the molecular structures of these two chemicals and can't believe anyone would believe this effect is possible. CYA has no busness being in a spa because even at 20ppm it is retarding the oxidating effects of chlorine but this industry regularly sells DiChlor to use in spas. Furthermore, we have been eliminating CYA in both commercial and residential pools with amazing results. Once our systems is added and CYA readings drop to zero, chlorine consumption dropped up to 50% while maintaining FAC readings of 2ppm and Combined Chlorine near zero with Turbity readings of zero as well. None of these pools required shocking or algeacides. You can see the press conference where the Mayor of St. Paul announced the results; It is important that this biofilm and its effects be bought to the attention of the pool and spa industry because it has been under the radar for over 15 years. Did you know that the pH readings at the bottom of biofilms are less than one which is highly corrosive. Scientists now believe that most if not all rust and corrosion in a pool or spa can be attributed directly to biofilms.

Mine foams up when the PH is too low. I too noticed more foam when jets are on high and the pH was low. When I would raise pH there would be less foam. The foaming never goes away fully as I was told it is a factor of my total dissolved solids (TDS) being high. I don't wash the swim suit as often. Wipe down armpits to remove deodorant. You can use a baby wipe ;-) Sometimes take the water level down a bit and top it up with fresh water. Greg Spa foaming from detergent is a incorrect "wives tail" created by the spa industry because they didn't know what else to tell customers. Actually it usually means your spa in contaminated with biofilm and needs to be properly flushed. Detergents are low foaming formulations otherwise your washing machine would overflow. We tried putting several cups of detergent in a spa and did not generate foaming. The whole pool and spa industry has been slow to recognize the impact of bacterial biofilms have on water management. Studies done by major universities over the past 15 years have identified biofilm as the cause of over 80% of the water mangement issues. This research is lead by the National Science Foundation Research Center at Montana State University (http://www.erc.montana.edu). SO.... In a nutshell. How do you rid a tub of Biofilm? Getting rid of the biofilm is a good first step. You need to find a good spa flush product and follow the directions. Unfortunately, there are both good and ineffective products in the market and we haven't tested everyone. The Spa System Flush product is the one we include with our SpaStart Kit and it works well although we recommend using the whole bottle rather 1/2 of the bottle they recommend. Also, Natural Chemistry has one that seems to work well. I am sure there are others that I don't know about as well. Keeping the biofilm from returning is important to address as well. My company offers the only patented all natural product available in the industry called SpaNaturally. Our system allows for the reduction of toxic chemical applications of up to 80% while actually inproving the water quality and safety. If you would like learn more please go to www.cwsnaturally.com. or contact me directly at [email protected]

Unfortunately, your spa has biofilm it and until you flush that out you will continue to have water management issues. You can go to my website at www.cwsnaturally.com to find out how to eliminate the biofilm, what biofilm is, and how to keep it from returning. All the scientific research over the last 15 years has identified bacterial biofilm as the cause for over 80% of water contamination issues. (http://www.erc.montana.edu/'>http://www.erc.montana.edu/) This link will take to the University of Montana's website so you can see the impact that biofilm has in our enviornment. Aschwartz, How in the world do you know that biofilm is the cause of the problems without being there and testing the water? Sure it could be biofilm, it could also be that there isn't enough sanitizer in the water since it is being left for extended periods of time, etc, etc, etc. At least be honest and say that you wonder or that you think it could be biofilm, but to come straight out and say that it is biofilm is misleading. You're simply trying to use scare tactics to sell your product which I find deplorable sir. As for the original poster of the thread, if you are going to be gone without being able to check your spa on a regular basis, chlorine may not be your best option. You might think about using bromine instead since it stays in the water longer than chlorine. At least this is my understanding after reading many of the threads on this forum. I would also suggest finding a post by Nitro as he has a great post which he links to in the signature of all his posts, about how to balance your water to help prevent PH from swinging from high to low, etc. A lot to digest, but definitely worth the read. I am not the one saying that biofilm is the problem, the scientific research community is saying that biofilm is the problem that is why I encourage everyone to go to the website (http://www.erc.montana.edu) where the research is published. We have no influence over the unversities. It is amazing though once people understand what is causing the problems (ie.biofilm) and take steps to address these issues, how simple it becomes to manage their pool and spa water. We hear all the time from end users that finally are getting the experience they thought they were getting when they purchased their spa. Throwing more and more chemicals at a problem with all the side effects is not the answer. This is especially true when you discover like we did that nature has been way ahead of us all the time.

Unfortunately, your spa has biofilm it and until you flush that out you will continue to have water management issues. You can go to my website at www.cwsnaturally.com to find out how to eliminate the biofilm, what biofilm is, and how to keep it from returning. All the scientific research over the last 15 years has identified bacterial biofilm as the cause for over 80% of water contamination issues. (http://www.erc.montana.edu/) This link will take to the University of Montana's website so you can see the impact that biofilm has in our enviornment.

I should have known, you're trying to sell something, which makes me question what you say even more. You're going to have a tough sell on this board, because it's full of experts who have heard it all. But feel free to state your pitch. I'm interested in hearing it. There has been so many companies selling "snake oil' in this industry that I do not blame anyone for being skeptical so I going to ask you to do a little research on your own. Understanding bacterial biofilms and how they are formed and behave is the first step. The July 2009 issue of Discover Magazine has a great article in it (http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jul-aug/17-slime-city-germs-talk-each-other-plan-attacks/?searchterm=Slime). They refer to the research about biofilm going on for over fifteen years at Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu/) which is a National Science Foundation Research Center. Learning about biofilm uncovers the major misunderstand that the pool and spa industry has been operating under when it comes to treating water. Less than one percent of the bacterial contaminates remain in solution or "Plankton" as the scientist point out. Most if not all of today's sanitizers kill planktonic bacteria. Unfortunately, 99% of the bacteria attaches itself at the water surface interface and immediately begins to create a protective shield over itself called biofilm. All presently employed methods of pool and spa water sanitization do not penetrate biofilm and kill the bacteria living, multiplying, and contaminating the water from there. The EPA, FDA, and CDC are all very aware of this fact because they regularly attend seminars at these universities including Montana State Unversity.

Mine foams up when the PH is too low. I too noticed more foam when jets are on high and the pH was low. When I would raise pH there would be less foam. The foaming never goes away fully as I was told it is a factor of my total dissolved solids (TDS) being high. I don't wash the swim suit as often. Wipe down armpits to remove deodorant. You can use a baby wipe ;-) Sometimes take the water level down a bit and top it up with fresh water. Greg Spa foaming from detergent is a incorrect "wives tail" created by the spa industry because they didn't know what else to tell customers. Actually it usually means your spa in contaminated with biofilm and needs to be properly flushed. Detergents are low foaming formulations otherwise your washing machine would overflow. We tried putting several cups of detergent in a spa and did not generate foaming. The whole pool and spa industry has been slow to recognize the impact of bacterial biofilms have on water management. Studies done by major universities over the past 15 years have identified biofilm as the cause of over 80% of the water mangement issues. This research is lead by the National Science Foundation Research Center at Montana State University (http://www.erc.montana.edu).

QUOTE (Nitro @ Oct 1 2009, 06:47 PM) QUOTE (Hillbilly Hot Tub @ Oct 1 2009, 12:00 PM) Are you suggesting that pools and spas are no longer safe to use Guess I'll be selling my spa. LOL I am not suggesting that pools and spas are all unsafe but rather that the pool and spa industry as a whole has been operating under a misunderstanding of how bacteria behaves in a body of water. The industry has been ignoring the extensive research going on at Harvard, Stanford and lead by Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu) that conclusively show that 99% of the bacteria (including the patogenic bacteria) in a pool or spa are protected by the biofilm while the conventional treatment methods can only deal with the one percent of the "planktonic" bacteria in solution. Once the biofilm problem becomes the focus of treatment which creates at least 80% of the water mangement issues, then over-dosing the pool or spa with ineffective chemicals that have unwanted side effects is greatly reduced. Getting rid of the biofilm is a positive first step, but traditional water treatment methods have been proven not to protect from bacteria reinfection. My company has developed and patended a system that employes mother nature's solution to condition water to deal with biofilm (<spam link removed>). While this is not chemical free because this system still uses small amounts a traditional sanitizer to kill the residual planktonic bacteria, users report up to a 80% lowering of toxic chemical applications, a dramatic reduction in maintenance time and effort while improving water quality. It is pretty amazing how much simplier is to enjoy a spa or pool once the appropriate processes are implemented.

Nitro's decontamination procedure will take care of any biofilm issues. I used his procedure to take care of a biofilm problem that developed while I was using BaquaSpa. After decontaminating my spa, I measured a 13% chlorine demand for the following 24 hours. The only deviation from Nitro's procedure is that I used Natural Chemistry's Spa Purge. Good stuff! Decontamition is an important first step to rid your spa of biofilm. Unfortunitely, scientists have shown that the present methods recommended by this industry do not prevent the reinfection that occurs. Sanitizers in the dosages now applied to pools and spas will not have the effects on biofilms necessary to maintain a clean pool or spa.

The same thing happens to me about 3 weeks after I change water. Water chemistry typically looks good. I figured this was typical? Same thing happened to me. I have a fresh fill about 3 weeks ago. Used 2 pre-filters inline. And used the pool calculator to find best alkalinity. Started at: CH:200 AL:220 PH:8.3 Now at: CH:200 AL:90 PH:7.8 Borate:50 CYA:around 30 now using 6% bleach and occasional MPS shock when I find chlorine demand is getting too high. I'm not sure exactly when the fizzing and cloudy water with jets on started, and I'm tempted to drain and start over. I think it may be due to using too many balancing chemicals and too high initial TDS or just excessive usage (only had tub 2 months, this is the 2nd fill). Water is clear when jets are not on but then something precipitates out of the water with jets on. I've ordered some Sea-Klear to see if this will cure it. Will let you know how it goes. If it doesn't clear it up then the next fill will try using the water softener from the house and starting with a lower CH. I read somewhere that calcium can precipitate under certain conditions? Put more thought into this and i've not tried the Sea-Klear yet, it will take another week to be delivered, but I don't think a clarifier is going to help. Our town water is known to be notoriously hard. I think I will drain and refill with soft water so I can then hold a higher alkalinity and still have balanced water (due to lower CH) and then the higher alkalinity should stop the fizzing/cloudy water with jets on. Foaming or fizzing can be a sign of a bacterial biofilm contamination. When spas are free of biofilm and the water chemistry is in balance, the water will be clear and foam free. Bacterial biofilms are everywhere in our enviornment when water and a surface come together. Hot tubs are the perfect opportunity for biofilm formation because bacteria love temperatures of 98 dgrees or higher. Once biofilm is formed, sanitizers in normal dosages do not penetrate them leaving up to 99% of the bacteria present to remain active and multiply. This understanding of biofilm and how to treat it is important because scientists now recognize that more than 80% of water management issue are biofilm related. You can learn more about biofilm research by going to Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering's web site at http://www.erc.montana.edu/. It appears as though Combined Chlorines can result from biofilm contamination. I read some on biofilm and i don't think this can be my issue. my tub is only 2 months old. Biofilm can be present in a brand new spa. Spa builders test their spa with water that is used repeatedly. There is no way to completely remove the water in the spa once it is introduced. They then seal the spa with a wrap and store the spa for delivery. This is a perfect opportunity for bacterial biofilm development. We have found biofilm in the majority of new spa we have tested.

Dear Dale, I am new to this Forum but I have been reading alot of the replies for awhile. No one has been discussing bacterial biofilm contamination which scientists have now idenified causes over 80% of today's water mangement issues. Some of the problems you describe are the classic effects we see when biofilms are present. All detergents used in washing machines are low foaming because your machine would overflow with suds if it wasn't. The amount of detergent that can be carried on your bathing ware (assuming you are using some form of bathing ware) is very small. Because the pool and spa industry has been slow to recognize and focus on this biofilm issue, most of the indusrty wide solutions suggest applying more chemicals that not only do not have an effect on biofilms but bring side effects of their own to the water. To learn more about biofilms you can go to http://www.erc.montana.edu/. Montana State University is a National Science Foundation Research Center focusing on biofilm research.