lancef1

Wild Bill, It would be much simpler and cheaper to use a chlorine generator. Too much to explain here Search technichlor and Lance Fitzsimmons to get complete information and a free ebook that explains it.

CYA usage is NOT recommended in spas and hot tubs. Here are some excerpts from the Pennsylvania Department of Health. 8. What are the effects of higher levels of cyanuric acid? – As the level of cyanuric acid rises, the “killing power” of the free chlorine residual weakens. At above 50 ppm of cyanuric acid, the time it takes to kill bacteria in the water is much longer compared to swimming pool water without cyanuric acid. As the level of cyanuric acid builds up, the chlorine will become increasingly less effective in keeping the water clean and problems such as increased cloudiness in the pool water, high bacterial test results, and even algae growth can occur. 9. Should cyanuric acid be used in hot tubs or spas? – At even moderate levels of cyanuric acid, the amount of time it takes chlorine to kill pseudomonas aeruginosa (the bacteria that causes “hot tub itch”) can be as much as a hundred times as long as in a hot tub or spa without cyanuric acid. For this reason, the Pennsylvania Department of Health does not recommend the use of cyanuric acid or stabilized chlorine in any hot tubs or spas This is why hot tubs treated with chlorine granules or tablets have to be drained on a regular basis. As the CYA buildup occurs, it becomes impossible for the chlorine to do its job. This same effect will also happen with bromine tablets as the BCDMH found in bromine tablets have the same effect on bromine as CYA has on chlorine. This is why when you start with fresh water the first month is generally less trouble to maintain water quality and then it goes downhill from there. Lance

So it would seem that you need to shock the tub before and after this must surely negate quite a bit of the cost savings of such a system? James, This is a good point. That is one thing that makes the ColorChlor and TechniChlor different from the Spa Pilot. These systems can adjust for spa usage so you don't have to add all the other treatments. I know about 30 people using them only use salt and vinegar to treat their tubs.

Use white vinegar to low pH. It is cheap and safe to use. You can also use chlorine generation for sanitizing which uses a bank of ordinary salt to continually make chlorine. I have a lot of tubs using chlorine generation which use a combination of salt, baking soda and white vinegar at the tune of $2-3 USD per month. Good Luck

You shouldn't use either one because of the cyanuric acid found in the products. Try the bleach method or chlorine generation options such as ColorChlor or Spa Pilot. Here are some excerpts from the Pennsylvania Department of Health which is in agreement with other state agencies. 8. What are the effects of higher levels of cyanuric acid? – As the level of cyanuric acid rises, the “killing power” of the free chlorine residual weakens. At above 50 ppm of cyanuric acid, the time it takes to kill bacteria in the water is much longer compared to swimming pool water without cyanuric acid. As the level of cyanuric acid builds up, the chlorine will become increasingly less effective in keeping the water clean and problems such as increased cloudiness in the pool water, high bacterial test results, and even algae growth can occur. 9. Should cyanuric acid be used in hot tubs or spas? – At even moderate levels of cyanuric acid, the amount of time it takes chlorine to kill pseudomonas aeruginosa (the bacteria that causes “hot tub itch”) can be as much as a hundred times as long as in a hot tub or spa without cyanuric acid. For this reason, the Pennsylvania Department of Health does not recommend the use of cyanuric acid or stabilized chlorine in any hot tubs or spas This is why hot tubs treated with dichlor or trichlor have to be dumped on a regular basis. As the CYA buildup occurs, it becomes impossible for the chlorine to do its job. This same effect will also happen with bromine tablets as the BCDMH found in the tablets have the same effect on bromine as CYA has on chlorine. This is why when you start with fresh water the first month is generally less trouble to maintain water quality and then it goes downhill from there.

The issue of corrosion continually comes up as a mystery and it really doesn’t have to be. Before chlorine generators arrived on the scene here in the US, we had regular old pools that had corrosion issues. Many of these pools & spas were treated with liquid chlorine and had high TDS levels. The reason for this is that high TDS levels increase the conductivity of the water letting stray currents to run through the water. Further investigation with sensitive instruments revealed that these bodies of water were not grounded properly. This was the cause of the corrosion. The only practical way to deal with this was to place zinc balls in the skimmers and inspect them monthly to make sure there was no scale buildup on them as this makes them ineffective and they will need to be acid washed so they will do their job which is to help neutralize the stray currents in the water. It takes such a small amount of current that most people would never even detect its presence. This problem is much easier to deal with in a hot tub as you can make sure it is properly grounded with minimal effort. I know of several hot tubs that have been on chlorine generation for 3 years or more without any signs of corrosion whatsoever. What about CYA? This can be a controversial subject but here is the reality. CYA is not recommended for spa use because it lowers the ability of the chlorine to oxidize. (ORP – Oxidation Reduction Potential) This can be witnessed in any pool or spa with an ORP controller. With a spa, the hot water will degrade the chlorine faster than sunlight and since I rarely ever see a hot tub that isn’t covered, why use it? CYA itself has a corrosive nature and the thought of it preventing corrosion is nothing more than folklore. If you use CYA in a spa, it will take more chlorine to keep it sanitized. Very high levels of chlorine will cause corrosion. Here are some excerpts from the Pennsylvania Department of Health which is in agreement with most other state agencies. 8. What are the effects of higher levels of cyanuric acid? – As the level of cyanuric acid rises, the “killing power” of the free chlorine residual weakens. At above 50 ppm of cyanuric acid, the time it takes to kill bacteria in the water is much longer compared to swimming pool water without cyanuric acid. As the level of cyanuric acid builds up, the chlorine will become increasingly less effective in keeping the water clean and problems such as increased cloudiness in the pool water, high bacterial test results, and even algae growth can occur. 9. Should cyanuric acid be used in hot tubs or spas? – At even moderate levels of cyanuric acid, the amount of time it takes chlorine to kill pseudomonas aeruginosa (the bacteria that causes “hot tub itch”) can be as much as a hundred times as long as in a hot tub or spa without cyanuric acid. For this reason, the Pennsylvania Department of Health does not recommend the use of cyanuric acid or stabilized chlorine in any hot tubs or spas This is why hot tubs treated with dichlor or trichlor have to be dumped on a regular basis. As the CYA buildup occurs, it becomes impossible for the chlorine to do its job. This same effect will also happen with bromine tablets as the BCDMH found in the tablets have the same effect on bromine as CYA has on chlorine. This is why when you start with fresh water the first month is generally less trouble to maintain water quality and then it goes downhill from there. As far as the pH is concerned, it is far better to have a sanitizer that increases the pH than one that lowers it. Dichlor and trichlor will lower your pH with trichlor doing so much more aggressively which will then lower total alkalinity and cause the water balance to become aggressive which will definitely destroy things. Where to drain your tub? I would suggest running a hose to the street or into a toilet. Get an inexpensive sump pump that hooks up to a garden hose and be done with it. It works much better than the drain on the hot tub. Copper and silver? They were a big hit in the 80’s on swimming pools but proved to be an expensive gimmick that is not very effective. Save your money. Chlorine generation has been the most effective way to treat pools and spas that I have seen in almost 24 years. Whether you get a Spa Pilot or ColorChlor will definitely increase your water quality. Spa pilot will cost more to operate because of the power pouches needed because it has no boost mode feature. The last I checked, the warranty also states that if you don’t use the power pouches, your warranty will be voided. The ColorChlor allows you to not use the light show but it’s there if you want it. I have not experienced any difficulty being able to dial in the ColorChlor and it is harder to accidentally change the output level. Because of the boost feature on the ColorChlor, I have seen people go months without using any shock. There are a couple of people I know that have extremely high bather loads and will use a chlorine free shock and have no issues. If you have a good ozone system, it will effectively oxidize impurities and is very complimentary to chlorine generation. Whatever system you decide to use will improve you hot tubbing experience. It is important to try and keep it simple so you can enjoy your hot tub and not be a slave to it.

Well, I don't have a spa-pilot yet but I think that it is the answer to my spa maintenance concerns. After spending countless hours reading and re-reading post after post on this forum about water treatement, spending wakeless nights thinking about how copper/silver/aquafinesse are not primary sanitizers, about how chlorine is only a real problem when the FC gets too low and causes chloramines, about shocking (chlorine or MPS?) and using bleach, etc...... I have made an impulse decision and decided that a SWG (salt water generator like spa-pilot) is probably what I am looking for. It looks like once it is dialed in that one can just relax and test ph and FC and even miss several days and still be in fine shape. It is using one of the three primary sanitizers (chlorine, bromine, and biguanide) and automatically keeps the FC levels up without daily additions. From this link it looks like corrosion with SWGs in pools is usually (always?) associated with very high FC levels and/or no use of CYA. Now in a spa we have much higher temps and presumably much faster reaction times so if there is going to be a problem we would experience its effects much faster than pool users. The only other con's on that link relate to: 1) PH rise -- a con also related to using Dichlor then bleach. 2) Cost -- for me my time is more than worth the extra cost. So corrosion is going to be the big problem. I would add that I am also concerned about where I can drain the spa water out of a SWG spa? Is it safe to put on a lawn or garden? I am guessing that it isn't which is going to make dumping the spa water much more complicated for me. The reasons I went with Spa-pilot over colorchlor are: 1) Spa-Pilot has analog dial to adjust rate while colorchlor is only adjustable in 10% increments (correct me if I am wrong). This seems to suggest that I can adjust the spa-pilot more precisely. 2) I didn't wan't the light show. 3) Spa-pilot suggests (and includes in the startup kit) the use of CYA which colorchlor doesn't (they suggest just adding plain salt). While the jury is still out about the importance of CYA in preventing corrosion my guess (supported by chem-geek Richards analysis) is that it is quite important. Thus, getting the startup with CYA in it was a bonus with the spa-pilot. 4) I found Spa-Pilot at a very slightly better price. Note: neither require the use of any additional chlorine. There is some confusion in a previous post where the spa-pilot literature says to occasionaly shock (as all systems need) with MPS or chlorine shock. This applies to both the spa-pilot and the colorchlor however I guess that the colorchlor's dosage increase might help oxidize the contaminants I would still think that a non-chlorine shock is needed occasionally My plan is to continue to use the "blue juice" copper based system that I got with the tub combined with the ozonator and spa-pilot. From my readings on this forum it seems that the fastest kill rates come from copper combined with chlorine and since I have the stuff I might as well use it. Combined with the ozonator I should be able to keep FC on the low side and still have good sanitation. My thinking is that if the spa isn't used for several days or more, with the spa-pilot set to generate low levels, I should have fewer problems with too high FC which *could* cause corrosion. Anyway, in the great tradition of early-adopters taking the risk and absorbing the expense I am jumping in and am going to try the spa-pilot. I will try to remember to post any success/failure with the system. I imagine as with any other on-line forum we will most certainly hear of any failures but might not hear all the successes (they will be too busy enjoying their spa. Mark The issue of corrosion continually comes up as a mystery and it really doesn’t have to be. Before chlorine generators arrived on the scene here in the US, we had regular old pools that had corrosion issues. Many of these pools & spas were treated with liquid chlorine and had high TDS levels. The reason for this is that high TDS levels increase the conductivity of the water letting stray currents to run through the water. Further investigation with sensitive instruments revealed that these bodies of water were not grounded properly. This was the cause of the corrosion. The only practical way to deal with this was to place zinc balls in the skimmers and inspect them monthly to make sure there was no scale buildup on them as this makes them ineffective and they will need to be acid washed so they will do their job which is to help neutralize the stray currents in the water. It takes such a small amount of current that most people would never even detect its presence. This problem is much easier to deal with in a hot tub as you can make sure it is properly grounded with minimal effort. I know of several hot tubs that have been on chlorine generation for 3 years or more without any signs of corrosion whatsoever. What about CYA? This can be a controversial subject but here is the reality. CYA is not recommended for spa use because it lowers the ability of the chlorine to oxidize. (ORP – Oxidation Reduction Potential) This can be witnessed in any pool or spa with an ORP controller. With a spa, the hot water will degrade the chlorine faster than sunlight and since I rarely ever see a hot tub that isn’t covered, why use it? CYA itself has a corrosive nature and the thought of it preventing corrosion is nothing more than folklore. If you use CYA in a spa, it will take more chlorine to keep it sanitized. Very high levels of chlorine will cause corrosion. Here are some excerpts from the Pennsylvania Department of Health which is in agreement with most other state agencies. 8. What are the effects of higher levels of cyanuric acid? – As the level of cyanuric acid rises, the “killing power” of the free chlorine residual weakens. At above 50 ppm of cyanuric acid, the time it takes to kill bacteria in the water is much longer compared to swimming pool water without cyanuric acid. As the level of cyanuric acid builds up, the chlorine will become increasingly less effective in keeping the water clean and problems such as increased cloudiness in the pool water, high bacterial test results, and even algae growth can occur. 9. Should cyanuric acid be used in hot tubs or spas? – At even moderate levels of cyanuric acid, the amount of time it takes chlorine to kill pseudomonas aeruginosa (the bacteria that causes “hot tub itch”) can be as much as a hundred times as long as in a hot tub or spa without cyanuric acid. For this reason, the Pennsylvania Department of Health does not recommend the use of cyanuric acid or stabilized chlorine in any hot tubs or spas This is why hot tubs treated with dichlor or trichlor have to be dumped on a regular basis. As the CYA buildup occurs, it becomes impossible for the chlorine to do its job. This same effect will also happen with bromine tablets as the BCDMH found in the tablets have the same effect on bromine as CYA has on chlorine. This is why when you start with fresh water the first month is generally less trouble to maintain water quality and then it goes downhill from there. As far as the pH is concerned, it is far better to have a sanitizer that increases the pH than one that lowers it. Dichlor and trichlor will lower your pH with trichlor doing so much more aggressively which will then lower total alkalinity and cause the water balance to become aggressive which will definitely destroy things. Where to drain your tub? I would suggest running a hose to the street or into a toilet. Get an inexpensive sump pump that hooks up to a garden hose and be done with it. It works much better than the drain on the hot tub. Copper and silver? They were a big hit in the 80’s on swimming pools but proved to be an expensive gimmick that is not very effective. Save your money. Chlorine generation has been the most effective way to treat pools and spas that I have seen in almost 24 years. Whether you get a Spa Pilot or ColorChlor will definitely increase your water quality. Spa pilot will cost more to operate because of the power pouches needed because it has no boost mode feature. The last I checked, the warranty also states that if you don’t use the power pouches, your warranty will be voided. The ColorChlor allows you to not use the light show but it’s there if you want it. I have not experienced any difficulty being able to dial in the ColorChlor and it is harder to accidentally change the output level. Because of the boost feature on the ColorChlor, I have seen people go months without using any shock. There are a couple of people I know that have extremely high bather loads and will use a chlorine free shock and have no issues. If you have a good ozone system, it will effectively oxidize impurities and is very complimentary to chlorine generation. Whatever system you decide to use will improve you hot tubbing experience. It is important to try and keep it simple so you can enjoy your hot tub and not be a slave to it.

If it is a spa or hot tub it is not a good idea to be used. (I can give further explanation if needed) For pools, you need to add it manually 1 or 2x a year. Does this answer your question? If not let me know

My advice - get rid of all the old chemical bottles and get a chlorine generation system. Your life will be better. Check out ColorChlor or Spa Pilot. I use the ColorChlor with salt, baking soda and white vinegar it has a boost mode so I rarely need to use non chlorine shock. I know a couple of people that have Spa Pilots and are happy with their water it but you have to use their power pouches before and after use or it will void your warranty. Happy Hot Tubbing!

I will have to agree with the responses from spa guru and spa savant. A good chlorine generation system properly installed and maintained has been one of the best alternatives to packaged chlorine I have ever experienced. Having made over 13,000 service calls on hot tubs to 1.8 million gallon facilities in the last 23 years, I have seen all kinds of things come and go and come and go again. The single common demominator in the problem pools I have seen is Tri-Chlor tablets. I have seen more destruction and poor water quality from this option than anything else. People get it because it is cheap and the dispensers are cheap - at least when you first buy them. The only problems I have seen with chlorine generation are undersizing units because someone was trying to be cheap, lack of understanding on how the units work, no understanding of water chemistry or just plain laziness. Chlorine generation is not a magic wand but if you follow the rules it will provide convenience, time, long term savings and exceptional water quality. I have installed many different brands and only one of them dissapointed me and have not had one customer ever be dissapointed with their water quality. In fact, I still still many of them that thank me after several years of having one. If you want to get one make sure you don't go out on price or you will most likely be dissapointed. The bargain basement ones usually go out of business after 2-3 years and offer no real tech support. Quality and support cost money so if you are pinching pennies, go ahead and get nickled and dimed buying a little chlorine here and there. If anyone is looking for a good hot tub system, I know of 2 - the ColorChlor and Spa Pilot. Compare them and see which one suits your taste. Lance

I have been working in this industry for 23 years and found salt chlorine generation to be the absolute best choice out there. With proper water balance, I have seen no ill effects after 5 years of use. This will be just as wonderful as your pool

There are a lot of reasons people feel like they need to take a shower after being in a hot tub. I use salt chlorine generation in my tub and never feel like I need to get in the shower until the next morning.

A note for all using chlorine generators. I have found phosphates showing up in the fill water here in the Denver, Co area. This will prevent your chlorine generator from being able to keep up or at the very least cause you to turn it up. This will reduce the life of the plates. You can get phosphate test strips pretty cheap and are a good investment. If you have foaming in your tub and you know there is chlorine in the water, chances are you may have phosphates. If you can't find a spa phosphate remover, the pool version works well but is more concentrated so I start out with a half cap full which usually gets rid of them unless the level is really high. The foaming will also go away. This works better than de-foamer as it eliminates to cause of the foam while reducing chlorine consumption. This is harder to detect when using traditional chemicals because you will just add more to compensate. Whereas chlorine generation has a fixed maximum amount of chlorine it can produce. Phosphates can also come from other sources including swim suits that don't get a good rinse in the washing machine. Lance

After several years of using salt, I have found no negative effects of using it. I have tried most of the "alternative" systems out there and have found chlorine generation to be the best alternative to using packaged chemicals. When people have issues, it usually boils down to improper water balance. Tri-Chlor and bromine tabs are very corrosive and lowers the pH and total alkalinity which leaves the water in a "corrosive" state. This erodes metals and makes plastics brittle. Occasionally, I have found that improper grounding of the vessel can lead to electrolysis that will erode metals. The comment on this site about using zink balls is very effective in helping to prevent this problem. I have used them for years in pools with these kinds of problems. When using zink balls it is important to check them every month or 2 to see if they have a scale build up on them. If so, lightly acid wash them or soak them in vinegar to get the scale off or they will no longer be effective. I have numerous customers using chlorine generation on their pools and hot tubs and they all love it. They tell me how nice it is even after several years of having it. The ColorChlor is my personal favorite for hot tubs because of the economy of use and some of its features but the Spa Pilot would also be a good choice. I would recommend that everyone with a tub get a chlorine generator. Look at both systems, compare their features and get the one that suits your needs. I know you will be impressed by the water quality chlorine generation offers as it will be better than any other system I've seen. Hope this helps Lance

I don't know if you got it yet but it will have a similar effect on spas. I have used a similar device since December 07 called the ColorCHlor which is similar with a few more features and cheaper. www.colorchlor.com PS. you can also use it with stuff you can get at the grochery store. Lance