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Hot Springs Classic F Hot Tub - No Jets

Hot Springs Classic F jets

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#1 abc123

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 12:15 AM

Classic
Model F
Serial # F461386
Built in the last quarter of 1996
Dedicated 20amp to the pannel

I had no power to the hot tub, replaced the G.F.C.I plug, drained, cleaned and refilled it. Next day it was warm, I added the chemicals and pushed the clean button and walked away. The clean button shuts off in about 10 mins automatic. Later on in the day I went back to look at the hot tub and there was what I thought to be black plastic peices in the water. (this was yesterday). Tonight I retrieved the peices by going in the hot tub. The water still warm and circulating. The buttons dont work, push them and nothing happens. On furter inspection of the peices I removed from the water they are not plastic they sound like metal when you shake them and they look rusty.
You can find a photo if these peices here : http://smg.photobuck...ab4u/Hot%20Tub/

Thanks in advance for any help

#2 Davidpsalt

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:19 AM

Initially I thought is could have been parts from your diverter valve as I believe some of the housings were black - but based on your post it may be more likely that they are broken pieces of your impeller on the wet end of your jet pump. The impeller is the water wheel the pushes the water through your jet system.

You may want to drain your spa and pull out your Jet pump and inspect.

A new wet end for your jet pump is approximately $80 online and is easy to replace - while you have it out check the condition of the bearing on the dry motor end of the pump. This bearing typically goes if the seals on the wet end start leaking - water will come through the wet end at the shaft and carry into the bearing causing it to prematurely wear out.

#3 abc123

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:19 PM

Davidpsalt,
Thank you very much for getting back to me! I have discovered some more things today. I read lots last night on the net, not that I havent read lots before posting this help request! I kept running into if your hot tub wont go on change the filters, or remove them to see if it goes on (Didint want to remove them with metal in the water). So today I ran out and bought some filters, put them in and turned it on. Its been on 4 times today. Water is now testing perfect. As for the peices I found in the water, I looked under at the pump, intending to remove it for furter inspection. I found under there that the part that held the wavemaster up was totally rusted, I touched it and it all fell about into peices like what I found in the water. I put some boards under it to support it and thought I was going to buy a replacement but I see they are no longer availible.

If you look at that backyardsplus.com photo of Pump Shroud, Wavemaster 7000 (v.1) that is mine, the part that has a hole in it is still there its plastic but the other part was very rusted metal, now its in a pile of very small peices.
The part that has the hole I read its supposed to take the heat away from the pump to help it stay cooler. It has a hose that connects with a hose clamp, the clamp was also rusted off, so the hose was part way off and was not sealed. I bought a hose clamp and put that back together and in place on the wavemaster. Now I am wondering if those rusted peices could have got sucked into the hot tub somehow from underneith. The only other thing that I can think of is I accedently got the parts in the hot tub a few nights ago when it got dark while i was under there.
Since the hot tub seems to be working like normal now, do I still want to take te pump out to examine closer? Or wait and see?
I would like to find something better to hold that pump up, since the wood blocks I have under there now are blocking some holes on the pump. If heat is an issue I dont want to start a new issue.

#4 PreservedSwine

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:39 PM

The shroud has nothing to do with this issue.

The only metal in the pump is a small ring on the difuser, that slips over the front of the impellor, and it can fall apart. (The impellor is all plastic- that's not the impellor)
But the peices will have to be small enough to come through a jet orifice, and those seem a little large- hard to tell without scale. But anyway, don't bother taking the pump apart- if it is the metal from the difuser- I doubt you'd notice if it was there or not, from the operation of the spa. It's purpose is to seperate the vacuum and pressure sides of the impellor...but the tolerance is very small even without the ring, and it doesn't hurt if it's not there. It cannot cause the spa to leak.

#5 abc123

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:18 PM

The shroud has nothing to do with this issue.
It cannot cause the spa to leak.

Thank you for getting back to me!
I have been in the hot tub every night since it started working and it is still fine, no more metal parts appearing in the water. I have to assume that this issue did have something to do with the "Shroud" as the only thing I can think of is i got parts of the rusted shroud in there accidentally.
What I think is my only problem now is finding a way to support the wavemaster pump without blocking the holes since I cant buy a replacement. I plan to roam the home improvement stores to find something that may work.

My hot tub has no leaks thank goodness!

#6 PreservedSwine

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:55 AM


The shroud has nothing to do with this issue.
It cannot cause the spa to leak.

Thank you for getting back to me!
I have been in the hot tub every night since it started working and it is still fine, no more metal parts appearing in the water. I have to assume that this issue did have something to do with the "Shroud" as the only thing I can think of is i got parts of the rusted shroud in there accidentally.

The shroud is not connected to the spa plumbing in any shape, way or form. It simply collects hot air from the motor, and the "shroud" vents it that air away from the equipment. You can remove the shroud- it's just held on with a couple plastic clips. It has nothing to do with anything getting in the water. If you fill the shroud full of metal shavings, they don't get in the spa water- there's just no connection.
I'm glad to hear the "mystery metal" is gone- I'd still bet if you broke down the wet-end, you'd find a missing ring inside the diffuser.

#7 abc123

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:12 AM



The shroud has nothing to do with this issue.
It cannot cause the spa to leak.



The shroud is not connected to the spa plumbing in any shape, way or form. If you fill the shroud full of metal shavings, they don't get in the spa water- there's just no connection.
I'm glad to hear the "mystery metal" is gone- I'd still bet if you broke down the wet-end, you'd find a missing ring inside the diffuser.

I know it has nothing to do with metal getting in my water, that's why I said I suspect that i put them in the water accidentally. I will be taking it apart if there is any sign of any other problem, and I will remember what you said here. I thank you for that!
Up till a few weeks ago all I knew about the hot tub was you get in and turn on the jets! My hot tub was broke a year, I was waiting on someone that was going to do it, I got tired of waiting and learned to change the plug, and take the circulation pump apart and clean it and make sure it was working. Now I know I took that circulation pump apart for no reason, but I was learning and determined, where there is a will there is a way! I don't want to take the wavemaster apart unless I know there is a reason to do it. If you still think I should check it, I would. Do you know where I can find a breakdown of my wavemaster? Something that tells me how to take it apart and what to do once I am in there? I'm a grandma, I never did this kind of work before.... but if it needs doing I find a way!

#8 abc123

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:21 AM



The shroud has nothing to do with this issue.
It cannot cause the spa to leak.

Thank you for getting back to me!
I have been in the hot tub every night since it started working and it is still fine, no more metal parts appearing in the water. I have to assume that this issue did have something to do with the "Shroud" as the only thing I can think of is i got parts of the rusted shroud in there accidentally.

The shroud is not connected to the spa plumbing in any shape, way or form. It simply collects hot air from the motor, and the "shroud" vents it that air away from the equipment. You can remove the shroud- it's just held on with a couple plastic clips. It has nothing to do with anything getting in the water. If you fill the shroud full of metal shavings, they don't get in the spa water- there's just no connection.
I'm glad to hear the "mystery metal" is gone- I'd still bet if you broke down the wet-end, you'd find a missing ring inside the diffuser.

when you are talking about the shroud are you talking about the plastic part that has a hole in it? the one that is supposed to take heat away from the pump? or the metal part that supports the pump?
http://img.photobuck...0417_112801.jpg
The metal part is what fell apart when I touched it, I put a dish rack in there to help support it, since I cant get that metal part anymore.

#9 PreservedSwine

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:41 PM

The dish rack- crude but effective, lol.
The shroud is on the rear of the pump-with the dryer type hose attached to it.

Unless the pump is leaking, or not working in some other fashion, I wouldn't take it apart.

If you would like an exploded illustration of the pump- just let me know and I'll send you a link. The free image host I use isn't accepted by this forum.

#10 abc123

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:29 AM

If you would like an exploded illustration of the pump- just let me know and I'll send you a link. The free image host I use isn't accepted by this forum.

I would like this, as im sure I will need it in the future ... if you have time

#11 abc123

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:14 PM

I added a scale to the picture this time these are new found in my hot tub. I tried to see if I could pick them up with a magnet and they don't stick.

Posted Image

#12 Chas

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:11 PM

I think that is the seal cup. It is a copper cup which goes in behind the seal - inside the very bowels of the pump - and helps to dissipate heat if the pump is run dry or with only a small amount of water going through. You can check - put some of the pieces into ketchup or salsa. Let them soak a few hours, and pull them out and wash them. If they look like copper - it is because they are!

You can run the pump for years without that heat sink - as long as you don't let it run dry. If the seal does begin to leak, you will want to rebuild or replace the pump. Watch it closely, because as was posted above, if the seal leaks, it tends to flood the motor and damage the bearing, if not the whole motor.

If you do choose to rebuild the pump, the new seal plate eliminates the copper piece, and comes with a new seal design which is much better. It looks like it is leaking, or has leaked in the past. That 'foot' had to be rusted away by something, and the pump shows a 'calcium beard' which is a trail left behind by leaking tub water. Watch it as you run the jets and see if anything is getting wet around the dish rack.

Your heater has been discontinued - as well as the housing. If that fails, you can very easily replace it with a new heater which is the same design as they put into the brand new spas. Same temp probes go right in, and it has a PDR feature which resets by simply shutting down the power for a minute or two.

HTH

B)
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#13 abc123

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 08:29 AM

I think that is the seal cup. It is a copper cup which goes in behind the seal - inside the very bowels of the pump - and helps to dissipate heat if the pump is run dry or with only a small amount of water going through. You can check - put some of the pieces into ketchup or salsa. Let them soak a few hours, and pull them out and wash them. If they look like copper - it is because they are!

I soaked my pieces in ketchup last night :) they are the color of copper without the shine, my friend says they are copper. They are already getting the green back on them.

You can run the pump for years without that heat sink - as long as you don't let it run dry. If the seal does begin to leak, you will want to rebuild or replace the pump. Watch it closely, because as was posted above, if the seal leaks, it tends to flood the motor and damage the bearing, if not the whole motor.
If you do choose to rebuild the pump, the new seal plate eliminates the copper piece, and comes with a new seal design which is much better. It looks like it is leaking, or has leaked in the past. That 'foot' had to be rusted away by something, and the pump shows a 'calcium beard' which is a trail left behind by leaking tub water. Watch it as you run the jets and see if anything is getting wet around the dish rack.

I did turn the jets on and it is leaking a little. We have decided to go ahead and rebuild the pump. Is there such a thing as a rebuild kit for this pump? Davidpsalt told me above to also check the bearing while I have it apart, and I am guessing a few seals, and whats this part that used to be copper called? is that called a seal plate? Is there a place that gives me a list if there is no kit?

Your heater has been discontinued - as well as the housing. If that fails, you can very easily replace it with a new heater which is the same design as they put into the brand new spas. Same temp probes go right in, and it has a PDR feature which resets by simply shutting down the power for a minute or two.

I saw the new heater when I first started searching my problem. I think you have to decide before getting a heater in the future if needed that you will have to decide then if you want 110 or 230 (I thought that was 220 but I checked my paper :) ) We dont want to make that choice yet, we are still thinking of changing it over.
The new heater resets with powering down for a min or two... is that not what I did by unplugging when the water was cold and plugging it back in on my old heater?

#14 Chas

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:24 AM

I soaked my pieces in ketchup last night :) they are the color of copper without the shine, my friend says they are copper. They are already getting the green back on them. Seal cup then. It will be replaced when you rebuild the pump.

I did turn the jets on and it is leaking a little. We have decided to go ahead and rebuild the pump. Is there such a thing as a rebuild kit for this pump? Davidpsalt told me above to also check the bearing while I have it apart, and I am guessing a few seals, and whats this part that used to be copper called? is that called a seal plate? Is there a place that gives me a list if there is no kit? yes, when you buy a seal plate you usually get a seal with it, and it will be the newer design without the copper seal cup.


Your heater has been discontinued - as well as the housing. If that fails, you can very easily replace it with a new heater which is the same design as they put into the brand new spas. Same temp probes go right in, and it has a PDR feature which resets by simply shutting down the power for a minute or two.

I saw the new heater when I first started searching my problem. I think you have to decide before getting a heater in the future if needed that you will have to decide then if you want 110 or 230 (I thought that was 220 but I checked my paper :) ) We dont want to make that choice yet, we are still thinking of changing it over.
The new heater resets with powering down for a min or two... is that not what I did by unplugging when the water was cold and plugging it back in on my old heater? Yes - if the tub senses that the water exiting the heater is too hot it shuts down, and to reset you do simply unplug. However, the new heater has that system AND a further system which shuts off just the heater (not the whole tub) if the heater gets too hot. That system is "PDR."

I am not sure you can easily convert your tub to 220 - it may need some re-wiring. For one thing, the heater outlet on the control box is different. I don't remember if the heater relay is two-pole, but if it is not, you will have to replace it with one that is. Then, you have to run a second circuit to the tub (30A two wire, GFI protected) to run just the heater - and that circuit would have to be wired into the heater relay. I think that HS actually puts in two relays so the heater can safely shut down even if one of them sticks on. Try it on 110 first, they really do work quite well...
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