[elkski]

I just read nearly all the famous cosco new hot tub thread and the thread really got off track and never answered my question. How much does it cost to build a spa and how much is the markup on a spa from these nearly always empty spa showrooms that abound. I ahve read where the markup is 40% or so. If this is ture you can see where costco and Strong think that there is room for a new deployment strategy.
My 40% number comes from some links I read but how much does it really cost for 2 pumps a blower, a heater pac, topside, frame, cover, and jets? I mean the system is simple and compared to something like a 5k 60" plasma tv or even an ATV it is not very high tech.
I have never really considered buying a spa from a traveling display and have just glances at the ones at Costco over the years thinking they must be cheap but now with all I read I might just look at the Costco offerings if I decide my Old Coleman spa is to old to keep repairing.
I do however wonder about the spa experience of the folks buying the Costco spas and if they would be able to tell what good jets feel like. I am not sure I know what a real good jetted tub feels like. I do have 2 5 Hp pumps but cant imagine a single pump being very nice like on some models.

[great white]

I just read nearly all the famous cosco new hot tub thread and the thread really got off track and never answered my question. How much does it cost to build a spa and how much is the markup on a spa from these nearly always empty spa showrooms that abound. I ahve read where the markup is 40% or so. If this is ture you can see where costco and Strong think that there is room for a new deployment strategy.
My 40% number comes from some links I read but how much does it really cost for 2 pumps a blower, a heater pac, topside, frame, cover, and jets? I mean the system is simple and compared to something like a 5k 60" plasma tv or even an ATV it is not very high tech.
I have never really considered buying a spa from a traveling display and have just glances at the ones at Costco over the years thinking they must be cheap but now with all I read I might just look at the Costco offerings if I decide my Old Coleman spa is to old to keep repairing.
I do however wonder about the spa experience of the folks buying the Costco spas and if they would be able to tell what good jets feel like. I am not sure I know what a real good jetted tub feels like. I do have 2 5 Hp pumps but cant imagine a single pump being very nice like on some models.

Good question, but bet we'll just never know.

It would be awful stupid on a manufacturers part (great for the consumer) to let out info like "yeah, we charge 12 grand for something that costs around 4 grand to build".

One thing that I find people don't consider is the R&D costs that go into a higher "quality" tub. As in, the research that goes into what makes a comfy seat, what makes a good jet, better plumbing, etc. The (for lack of a better term) bargain tubs all seemed rather plain when it can to jetting nor does it seem much time went into the shell design. More jets and a simlar tub design to the big manufacturers maybe. But it seem it's these are the jet you get , these are the way they work, and this is pretty much where the hole should be based on copying another desgn or an older design.

After wet testing several models on both sides of the price range (from 6000 to 13000) guess which one we bought?

Yup, 13000.

It was the HS Grandee. It held water like all the less expensive tubs, it kept it warm like all the less expensive tubs. But the seating was much more comfortable and versatile (swing seating options, etc) and the jet massage/quality/control was unrivaled by any of the less expensive tubs. I literally could not find one uncomfortable spot or somewhere I did not want to sit infront of a jet. One of my friends has a 5000 dolalr tub and he doesn't regret it, but he doesn't completely enjoy it. One of his comments is " if you sit in this seat here and turn the jets on, you better be holding on cause it will try and throw you right out of the tub". It has no real pressure adjustment other than air bubbles. Consequently, he doesn't use that seat with jets ever.

I found the rather unquantifiable "feel of quality" was much higher than the less expensive models we looked at. I would equate it to looking at a Chevy and a BMW. Sure, they both will get you back and forth to work, but the BMW has a higher fit and finish, more engineering in the componenets and is just a nicer all around experience (yes,a BMW will break down just like a Chevy will). Not quite a compete analogy, but close enough for this discussion.


Also, call me shallow, but there a certain pride in ownership/bragging rights when someone walks up to the car (hottub) and goes "Oooo, nice Beemer (Hot Springs)". Yeah, like I said, I'm shallow.


On another note, after digging around in the guts of 10-15 diferent tubs and researching the components and component manufacturers, I have come to know (as much as any consumer ever really does) that just because a pump or controller has a brand name on it doesn't mean it's always an "apples to apples" comparison. Just because it's a Gecko controller/pump doesn't mean it's the same quality across their entire line. Lesser "entry" lines are built to a price point to keep costs down which, ultimately, means some quality/durability/feature is given up to make that price. It often comes down to the quality/composition of bearings, seals, connections, etc that makes one line from a component manufacturer different than thier next line up (read: more expensive/longer lasting).

So, after all this blah blah blah on my part, the short answer for me is this:

No, I don't know what the profit marging is.

But, I'm willing to bet the percentage is not far off from a "high end model" from a "low end model"......IE: they all charge too much!

[arf1410]

I disagree with the premise of post #2 as I really doubt most Spa builders do much real "R&D", rather they assemble off the shelf components -ie nozzles, pumps, etc. While I doubt manufacturers will come to this board and divuldge much proprietary information, the Spa industry is big enough, that I'm sure a former manager of a Spa retail store may provide some good insight. Of course, as with any anonymous forum, no guarantees the info posted is factual...I think what the original poster is wondering about and me to, is how much would a $4500 costco tub retail for at a traditional spa store.

I admit I am totally guessing at these numbers, but if you have "inside info" feel free to comment. Costco is going to be much lower markup, and higher volume than a typical Spa retail store. I would GUESS a $4500 Costco tub, Costco is able to buy for $4000. A smaller retail store, with less buying power, would pay wholesale $5000 for that same tub, and need to retail it for $7500 to cover their overhead and highly commisioned sales people. So to the commenters that say "you get what you pay for" regarding Costco tubs, I think that is a bit misleading, because I claim a $4500 Costco spa = a $7500 retail tub...

When I look at just the parts, I see $2500 at most to build a tub....barring real fancy waterproof LCD TVs, etc...

[great white]

I disagree with the premise of post #2 as I really doubt most Spa builders do much real "R&D", rather they assemble off the shelf components -ie nozzles, pumps, etc. While I doubt manufacturers will come to this board and divuldge much proprietary information, the Spa industry is big enough, that I'm sure a former manager of a Spa retail store may provide some good insight. Of course, as with any anonymous forum, no guarantees the info posted is factual...I think what the original poster is wondering about and me to, is how much would a $4500 costco tub retail for at a traditional spa store.

I admit I am totally guessing at these numbers, but if you have "inside info" feel free to comment. Costco is going to be much lower markup, and higher volume than a typical Spa retail store. I would GUESS a $4500 Costco tub, Costco is able to buy for $4000. A smaller retail store, with less buying power, would pay wholesale $5000 for that same tub, and need to retail it for $7500 to cover their overhead and highly commisioned sales people. So to the commenters that say "you get what you pay for" regarding Costco tubs, I think that is a bit misleading, because I claim a $4500 Costco spa = a $7500 retail tub...

When I look at just the parts, I see $2500 at most to build a tub....barring real fancy waterproof LCD TVs, etc...

Well, I'll give you the "most Spa builders part", and there's always a cost saving when dealing in larger volumes. But, on the other side of that coin, my HS has alot of features not seen on other marketed models. They were all thought up, developed and produced by HS. "Moto-massage" jets, "soothing seven" jets are a few that come to mind that i didn't see on any other manufacturers tubs. All the others seemed to be the same type or designs. Sure, there appears to be some common jets on the HS that are probably industry sourced, but there are only a few. And I don't doubt some of thier "HS branded" bits in the case are built by contractors.

Tub design is also pretty evident in the " more expensive" models, they all seem much more comfortable and versatile than the less expensive/bulk suppliers tubs that we tested.

I'm not trying to"pimp" HS, but in my experience they do seem to have a fair bit of in house designed and developed features that aren't TV's etc. They were also pretty much the only "high end" dealer in the area except fo the Arctic Spa place...but I'm not so sure they're high end instead of just high price......

On a side note, our HS dealer even tried to steer us away from TV's and sound systems (not that I wanted them) rather than "upsell" us. A nice sign of integrity IMO...

[Roger]

I disagree with the premise of post #2 as I really doubt most Spa builders do much real "R&D", rather they assemble off the shelf components -ie nozzles, pumps, etc. While I doubt manufacturers will come to this board and divuldge much proprietary information, the Spa industry is big enough, that I'm sure a former manager of a Spa retail store may provide some good insight. Of course, as with any anonymous forum, no guarantees the info posted is factual...I think what the original poster is wondering about and me to, is how much would a $4500 costco tub retail for at a traditional spa store.

I admit I am totally guessing at these numbers, but if you have "inside info" feel free to comment. Costco is going to be much lower markup, and higher volume than a typical Spa retail store. I would GUESS a $4500 Costco tub, Costco is able to buy for $4000. A smaller retail store, with less buying power, would pay wholesale $5000 for that same tub, and need to retail it for $7500 to cover their overhead and highly commisioned sales people. So to the commenters that say "you get what you pay for" regarding Costco tubs, I think that is a bit misleading, because I claim a $4500 Costco spa = a $7500 retail tub...

When I look at just the parts, I see $2500 at most to build a tub....barring real fancy waterproof LCD TVs, etc...

I'll take a guess at this also Costco buys it for 3500 (what it's worth) and makes a grand selling it for 4500. Dealer buys it for 4000 because he buys less and sells it for 5500. I think this is closer. Exemplary service from a dealer may get that tub to 6 grand. Now lets take a higher end tub, and I do have a small amount of inside information. D1 charges the dealer 6000 for there tub and the dealer marks it up to 8000 (about the same) but if he can get 10 G's he will try all day!! Margins are higher and that's what drives this great country of ours.

[arf1410]

I'll take a guess at this also Costco buys it for 3500 (what it's worth) and makes a grand selling it for 4500. Dealer buys it for 4000 because he buys less and sells it for 5500. I think this is closer. Exemplary service from a dealer may get that tub to 6 grand. Now lets take a higher end tub, and I do have a small amount of inside information. D1 charges the dealer 6000 for there tub and the dealer marks it up to 8000 (about the same) but if he can get 10 G's he will try all day!! Margins are higher and that's what drives this great country of ours.

I would be SHOCKED if Costco marks up ANY online item 30%+ Though I GUESSED $500 on a Spa, I think $100 is more likely than $1000. Costco works on very small margins. You propose what Costco marks up $1000, a spa dealer would mark only $1500. I think a dealer would have a mark-up 5-10 times greater than costco....

Due to its buying power, I do know for a FACT there are many items that Costco REATAILS for less than a small business's wholesale, which is why Costco is the "wholesale" supplier for many small businesses. To the best of my knowledge, there are no really large, nationwide spa dealers that do anywhere near the volume Costco would do

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I disagree with the premise of post #2 as I really doubt most Spa builders do much real "R&D", rather they assemble off the shelf components -ie nozzles, pumps, etc.

Smaller spa makers (like Strong) have little in teh way of true R&D but the major spa makers like Watkins and Sundance/Jacuzzi spend a lot on R&D with multiple Engineers and techs working on projects that may have ben in the works a couple years before they come to market (or may not come to market due to failing R&D) so I'd say post #2 got it right but you may be on track when you take about some spa makers who rely on their suppliers to handle the R&D on new products/technology.

[arf1410]

I disagree with the premise of post #2 as I really doubt most Spa builders do much real "R&D", rather they assemble off the shelf components -ie nozzles, pumps, etc.

Smaller spa makers (like Strong) have little in teh way of true R&D but the major spa makers like Watkins and Sundance/Jacuzzi spend a lot on R&D with multiple Engineers and techs working on projects that may have ben in the works a couple years before they come to market (or may not come to market due to failing R&D) so I'd say post #2 got it right but you may be on track when you take about some spa makers who rely on their suppliers to handle the R&D on new products/technology.

Certainly I agree the few major players are doing more R&D than all the little shops around.
However, Spa don't strike me as high-tech. What major developements have there really been in the last 10-20 years??

[Roger]

I'll take a guess at this also Costco buys it for 3500 (what it's worth) and makes a grand selling it for 4500. Dealer buys it for 4000 because he buys less and sells it for 5500. I think this is closer. Exemplary service from a dealer may get that tub to 6 grand. Now lets take a higher end tub, and I do have a small amount of inside information. D1 charges the dealer 6000 for there tub and the dealer marks it up to 8000 (about the same) but if he can get 10 G's he will try all day!! Margins are higher and that's what drives this great country of ours.

I would be SHOCKED if Costco marks up ANY online item 30%+ Though I GUESSED $500 on a Spa, I think $100 is more likely than $1000. Costco works on very small margins. You propose what Costco marks up $1000, a spa dealer would mark only $1500. I think a dealer would have a mark-up 5-10 times greater than costco....

Due to its buying power, I do know for a FACT there are many items that Costco REATAILS for less than a small business's wholesale, which is why Costco is the "wholesale" supplier for many small businesses. To the best of my knowledge, there are no really large, nationwide spa dealers that do anywhere near the volume Costco would do

I will agree that your speculation is just as valid as mine. But it still remains just that for both of us and of no real use, speculation. No matter what Costco tells it's members they or no one has a true way of knowing the true margins that are achieved.

I would also argue that there are national dealer chains of Calspa and Masterspa that achieve sales higher than Costco. The dealer network may have several independent names working under the same umbrella corp. I would also add Thermospa to that list.

[hrustar]

There are a billion variables to answering the question what is the mark up. It depends on the company. A small company will have less margins because their costs to produce will be higher. A larger company will have higher margins because their production costs are less. It's all economies of scale.

Add to this marketing costs, shipping costs, service/warranty costs, r&d costs (all of which vary by brand) and you'll find the question gets even harder to answer.

Then there is the retailer cut/kick backs to deal with. Not to mention the retailer costs of rent/employee count/inventory overhead. It's a nightmare.

There's money to be made, but the amount will change for each and every brand/retailer.

My guess is that the profit margin is less than many people think, but enough to be profitable if you can sustain a market following.

[arf1410]

Agreed that I can do no more than SPECULATE on pricing/costing, so I will encourage some follow up on one of the other issues I had brought up, R&D spending by the Spa manufacturers. What are some examples of major developments or improvements in a new spa v. one 10-20 years old? Main differences I see (as an admitted TOTAL NEWBEE) are more jets. Do Jacuzzi and some of the other major brands really hold many patents?

[hrustar]

Agreed that I can do no more than SPECULATE on pricing/costing, so I will encourage some follow up on one of the other issues I had brought up, R&D spending by the Spa manufacturers. What are some examples of major developments or improvements in a new spa v. one 10-20 years old? Main differences I see (as an admitted TOTAL NEWBEE) are more jets. Do Jacuzzi and some of the other major brands really hold many patents?

New spa owner here, but I believe the use of ozone is new (by your criteria), also dual switch pumps and the use of circulation pumps. Full foam insulation may be new as well. LED lighting is certainly new.

Are these break through? For the most part, not really. Ozone seems big, but the others are pretty obvious. And still others are thanks to the pump makes R&D, not the spa maker.

Sure, spas are re-engineered often, but they are not really breaking the mold so to say.

[arf1410]

Agreed that I can do no more than SPECULATE on pricing/costing, so I will encourage some follow up on one of the other issues I had brought up, R&D spending by the Spa manufacturers. What are some examples of major developments or improvements in a new spa v. one 10-20 years old? Main differences I see (as an admitted TOTAL NEWBEE) are more jets. Do Jacuzzi and some of the other major brands really hold many patents?

New spa owner here, but I believe the use of ozone is new (by your criteria), also dual switch pumps and the use of circulation pumps. Full foam insulation may be new as well. LED lighting is certainly new.

Are these break through? For the most part, not really. Ozone seems big, but the others are pretty obvious. And still others are thanks to the pump makes R&D, not the spa maker.

Sure, spas are re-engineered often, but they are not really breaking the mold so to say.

I have just determined ozone has been used purify pools and spas since 1980...so (1) it doesn't qualify as recent, and (2) I don't know for certain it was even developed by the pool or spa industry...so cross ozone off the list as possible recent SPA industry R&D ...

Things like adding LED lighting is a design change, but unless for example they spent time and $$ to develop, say, underwater LEDs, you couldn't give them much credit for that either. My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

Arf,

I can see from your posts lately that you're about to buy the Strong so I know why you're trying to convince yourself and/or us of this. The cost difference to build and support (R&D through Warranty and much in between) a high quality premium spa like Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance ... is noticeably more than a mid or lower end spa maker though a lot of the difference is also in the quality of the end product which can be difficult to put a price tag on but is a huge factor. Also factor in the chance which is apt to be chugging along after 12, 15, 18 year and you'll see a big difference. Spas can make for expensive planters. You've pretty much decided to buy from Costco and you're preemptively defending the purchase wanting to believe you're buying the same thing for less.

I can understand those that want to say the jury is out on Strong so and the evidence isn't there to assume Strong will follow the Costco predecessors like Infinity, Tatum, Keys, Hydro... but you're reaching in your hope here because part of the reason the past companies went the way of the dinosaur is the way they had to cut corners to bring down the cost down to sell through Costco in the first place so there is reason for us to be skeptical, we've heard this story before (wish I had a dollar for every person who said Infinity would be different than its predecessors). Many of us who've been around have seen plenty of these "lower price, industry parts" spas that sell for less and to think it costs the same to build them as a premium spa is just wishful thinking.

[DK117]

My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

Arf,

I can see from your posts lately that you're about to buy the Strong so I know why you're trying to convince yourself and/or us of this. The cost difference to build and support (R&D through Warranty and much in between) a high quality premium spa like Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance ... is noticeably more than a mid or lower end spa maker though a lot of the difference is also in the quality of the end product which can be difficult to put a price tag on but is a huge factor. Also factor in the chance which is apt to be chugging along after 12, 15, 18 year and you'll see a big difference. Spas can make for expensive planters. You've pretty much decided to buy from Costco and you're preemptively defending the purchase wanting to believe you're buying the same thing for less.

I can understand those that want to say the jury is out on Strong so and the evidence isn't there to assume Strong will follow the Costco predecessors like Infinity, Tatum, Keys, Hydro... but you're reaching in your hope here because part of the reason the past companies went the way of the dinosaur is the way they had to cut corners to bring down the cost down to sell through Costco in the first place so there is reason for us to be skeptical, we've heard this story before (wish I had a dollar for every person who said Infinity would be different than its predecessors). Many of us who've been around have seen plenty of these "lower price, industry parts" spas that sell for less and to think it costs the same to build them as a premium spa is just wishful thinking.

Spatech,
I have no doubt your assessment of the OP is accurate. I would however like an answer to the OP's question. We've had two opinions posted. One that Costco has a $1000 markup and a dealer would be $2000 markup. The second was Costco has $500 markup and dealers have $2500. While I would love to see the facts, I don't think we'll get them. But certainly there seems to be consensus that a tub, any identical tub, would sell for between $1000 to $2000 cheaper at Costco through economies of scale vs a dealer ... albeit without the local support.

Full disclosure, I'm a CXSi80 owner still in the honeymoon period. I can see you rolling your eyes already, but this markup does drive purchase decisions. I'm not suggesting the CXSi80 is superior to anything (or even on par with anything.) I'm suggesting the CXSi80 didn't carry dealer markup of a grand or more.

DK117

[hottubdan]

My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

Arf,

I can see from your posts lately that you're about to buy the Strong so I know why you're trying to convince yourself and/or us of this. The cost difference to build and support (R&D through Warranty and much in between) a high quality premium spa like Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance ... is noticeably more than a mid or lower end spa maker though a lot of the difference is also in the quality of the end product which can be difficult to put a price tag on but is a huge factor. Also factor in the chance which is apt to be chugging along after 12, 15, 18 year and you'll see a big difference. Spas can make for expensive planters. You've pretty much decided to buy from Costco and you're preemptively defending the purchase wanting to believe you're buying the same thing for less.

I can understand those that want to say the jury is out on Strong so and the evidence isn't there to assume Strong will follow the Costco predecessors like Infinity, Tatum, Keys, Hydro... but you're reaching in your hope here because part of the reason the past companies went the way of the dinosaur is the way they had to cut corners to bring down the cost down to sell through Costco in the first place so there is reason for us to be skeptical, we've heard this story before (wish I had a dollar for every person who said Infinity would be different than its predecessors). Many of us who've been around have seen plenty of these "lower price, industry parts" spas that sell for less and to think it costs the same to build them as a premium spa is just wishful thinking.

Spatech,
I have no doubt your assessment of the OP is accurate. I would however like a question to the OP's answer. We've had two opinions posted. One that Costco has a $1000 markup and a dealer would be $2000 markup. The second was Costco has $500 markup and dealers have $2500. While I would love to see the facts, I don't think we'll them. But certainly there seems to be consensus that a tub, any identical tub, would sell for between $1000 to $2000 cheaper at Costco through economies of scale vs a dealer ... albeit without the local support.

Full disclosure, I'm a CXSi80 owner still in the honeymoon period. I can see you rolling your eyes already, but this markup does drive purchase decisions. I'm not suggesting the CXSi80 is superior to anything (or even on par with anything.) I'm suggesting the CXSi80 didn't carry dealer markup of a grand or more.

DK117

It doesn't matter what the category is. Costco makes their nut on Memberships. Then they make small margins on their products. Fact is they have a horrible history in the spa category.

[arf1410]

My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

Arf,

I can see from your posts lately that you're about to buy the Strong so I know why you're trying to convince yourself and/or us of this. The cost difference to build and support (R&D through Warranty and much in between) a high quality premium spa like Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance ... is noticeably more than a mid or lower end spa maker though a lot of the difference is also in the quality of the end product which can be difficult to put a price tag on but is a huge factor. Also factor in the chance which is apt to be chugging along after 12, 15, 18 year and you'll see a big difference. Spas can make for expensive planters. You've pretty much decided to buy from Costco and you're preemptively defending the purchase wanting to believe you're buying the same thing for less.

I can understand those that want to say the jury is out on Strong so and the evidence isn't there to assume Strong will follow the Costco predecessors like Infinity, Tatum, Keys, Hydro... but you're reaching in your hope here because part of the reason the past companies went the way of the dinosaur is the way they had to cut corners to bring down the cost down to sell through Costco in the first place so there is reason for us to be skeptical, we've heard this story before (wish I had a dollar for every person who said Infinity would be different than its predecessors). Many of us who've been around have seen plenty of these "lower price, industry parts" spas that sell for less and to think it costs the same to build them as a premium spa is just wishful thinking.

Actually, I am looking for some FACTS to convince me otherwise. Give me some specific examples of R&D expenditures, give me specific examples of lower quality components. Most of what my novice eyes have seen is that higher cost buys features and accessories.

Costco drives prices. The previous Costco spa dealers very likely went out of business because the sold their spas with too little markup. If I buy a $4500 Strong Spa at Costco, and Strong goes out of business 2 weeks later becuase those $4500 tubs cost them $4600 to manufacture, I really don't care, as long as they are using "industry standard" components, so I can get parts in 6 years...I dont want to pay $7500 just so Strong stays strong and profitable...

[hottubdan]

My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

Arf,

I can see from your posts lately that you're about to buy the Strong so I know why you're trying to convince yourself and/or us of this. The cost difference to build and support (R&D through Warranty and much in between) a high quality premium spa like Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance ... is noticeably more than a mid or lower end spa maker though a lot of the difference is also in the quality of the end product which can be difficult to put a price tag on but is a huge factor. Also factor in the chance which is apt to be chugging along after 12, 15, 18 year and you'll see a big difference. Spas can make for expensive planters. You've pretty much decided to buy from Costco and you're preemptively defending the purchase wanting to believe you're buying the same thing for less.

I can understand those that want to say the jury is out on Strong so and the evidence isn't there to assume Strong will follow the Costco predecessors like Infinity, Tatum, Keys, Hydro... but you're reaching in your hope here because part of the reason the past companies went the way of the dinosaur is the way they had to cut corners to bring down the cost down to sell through Costco in the first place so there is reason for us to be skeptical, we've heard this story before (wish I had a dollar for every person who said Infinity would be different than its predecessors). Many of us who've been around have seen plenty of these "lower price, industry parts" spas that sell for less and to think it costs the same to build them as a premium spa is just wishful thinking.

Actually, I am looking for some FACTS to convince me otherwise. Give me some specific examples of R&D expenditures, give me specific examples of lower quality components. Most of what my novice eyes have seen is that higher cost buys features and accessories.

Costco drives prices. The previous Costco spa dealers very likely went out of business because the sold their spas with too little markup. If I buy a $4500 Strong Spa at Costco, and Strong goes out of business 2 weeks later becuase those $4500 tubs cost them $4600 to manufacture, I really don't care, as long as they are using "industry standard" components, so I can get parts in 6 years...I dont want to pay $7500 just so Strong stays strong and profitable...

Denser foam, vs 1# foam. Foam filled vs. an inch or so of foam. Saves you money. Costs hundreds.
5 year warranty vs. 1 or 2 year. Potentially saves you money. Costs hundreds.
Local dealer support. Priceless.

[arf1410]

I look at foam filled as a big negative - the minor possible energy savings is far out weighed by the tremendous added difficulty in access for repair. One recent post in this forum mentioned $1100 minimum to repair a leak in a foam filled tub. Also, I didn't think there was a correlation between foam and price - some manufacturers do, some don't, and others give you the choice. A local (Seattle area) dealer, not Costco, recommended to me against that option. Certainly a longer warranty has value, however only if the store or manufacturer is there to support it. I have more confidence Costco will be around in 5 years than the corner Spa dealer. Spa dealers generally provide free delivery and setup, which is worth a couple hundred dollars. The Spa dealers I have spoken with did not mention any other free support, that they would offer unlike Costco. I would think their sales pitch would have mentioned it, if they provided it.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Actually, I am looking for some FACTS to convince me otherwise. Give me some specific examples of R&D expenditures, give me specific examples of lower quality components. Most of what my novice eyes have seen is that higher cost buys features and accessories.

The previous Costco spa dealers very likely went out of business because the sold their spas with too little markup.

The fact is the Strong spa is cheaper and is backed by Costco and those are the real reasons you are going that route which is fine if that works for you until u throw in all the other BS you're spouting.

The previous Costco spa dealers very likely went out of business because the sold their spas with too little markup.

That was PART of it, the other part was cutting corners/overall poor quality. When it happens once it's an incident. When it happens twice is a repeat. When the same thing happens a 3rd and 4th time then it's a pattern. You can justify a Strong purchase any way you want but I'll wait before I assume they'll be any different than Keys, Hydro, Tatum or Infinity (who have I left out?).

I look at foam filled as a big negative

You obvioulsy know what you want to do so just go buy the Costco spa.

[arf1410]

"Keys, Hydro, Tatum or Infinity (who have I left out?)."

Just because they went out of business,doesn't necessarily mean they were bad tubs. IF the tubs were bad, and no longer warranty support, then Costco does indeed give full refunds as reported on this forum.

As far as the foam, it was a local spa dealer, who carried a line of tubs that offered foam as an option, who talked me out of it...not Costco/Strong....

[Roger]

I look at foam filled as a big negative

You obvioulsy know what you want to do so just go buy the Costco spa.

I would see full foam as a negetive on a low end spa also. Seems there construction is condusive to leaks.

I'll opt out of this thread. But I have never seen an owner of a low end discount store tub last around here for more than a couple years. That to me says alot. On the other hand high end tub owners stick around because they have questions years down the road for repair after warranty.

But you could return your tub to Costco in 5 years, or could you? Never seen that happen or be reported here.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

"Keys, Hydro, Tatum or Infinity (who have I left out?)."

Just because they went out of business,doesn't necessarily mean they were bad tubs. IF the tubs were bad, and no longer warranty support, then Costco does indeed give full refunds as reported on this forum.

They were not quality spas; that was the bigger part of the problem. What happened was after a while Costco would start getting them back due to quality issues and then debiting what they owed the manufactures when they returned them. That's when the cash flow problems started and it was all down hill from there. There even was an Infinity person who came on here who admitted the end was when Costco didn't pay them and it was because the quality bill came due. Old story repeated numerous times, we'll see on Strong.

As far as the foam, it was a local spa dealer, who carried a line of tubs that offered foam as an option, who talked me out of it...not Costco/Strong....

Dealers/manufacturers who offer foam as an option are non-foam spa makers plain and simple, it really a ruse. They're trying to make it sound like they are unbiased and will do it either way but thats a joke. In an attempt for more sales and to combat selling against well insulated foam filled spas they use the Marketing ploy of "We can foam that for you too if you want but you really don't want to". What would you expect them to say? The reputable non-full foam makers like Arctic and Maxx have the sense to stick with the way they know how to do it. The ones who go both ways are a sham IMO; pick a method and perfect it.

[great white]

I look at foam filled as a big negative

Having "somewhat" of an engineering background, I'll give you some of the "pros and cons" of this building method.

Pros:

1. Vibration dampening. Anything that is required to make a seal, benefits from reduced vibration. The hoses and fittings will vibrate from the pumps and the movement of water through them. Foaming them in place damps this vibration and results in a seal that lasts longer.

2. Insulation. Do we really have to discuss the benfits of closed cell spray foam insulation and the amounts of it? Let's just leave it as it a superior insulation method.

3. Sound damping. A fully foamed tub is going to be quieter. A "non-foamed" tub is going to resonate with the vibration induced by the pumps and the movement of the water through the plumbing. you can change the frequency at which the tub resonates by varying the thickness of the acrylic and or backer material, but you can't eliminate it. The shell is also going to act as a "speaker" of sorts for any sound inside the case, again, pumps/water movement/etc. It's just the way it is. Whether or not this (or the amount of it) bothers the buyer is a personal choice. I find it does effect your enjoyment and the "impression" of quality after you've compared them side by side.

4. Structural integrity. Spray foamed "to the gills" means every square inch of the shell structure is supported. The water/bather load is spread thoughout the structure and supported by the entire base instead of by a wood structure at a few points or the tub edges alone. yeah, so what? What does this mean? It means less shell deflection and/or movement means less chance of broken seals or cracking tubs. Some may point out that household tubs and large "in house" jacuzzi tubs are supported by the tub edges, but they also don't have to deal with 2-3 tons of water load.....

5. Base loading (for lack of a better term). This refers to the loading on the structure below the tub. Not so important if mounting the tub on a concrete pad, but for deck installs it can make a difference. Sure, the total weight is going to be the same that the deck supports, but an edge loaded (on the skirt) tub is going to have areas of concentrated load as opposed to th spread out toal load of a fully foamed tub. Think of it this way; an edge loaded tub has a better chance of deflecting deck boarding between the joists of a properly engineered deck than a tub that loads the entire undertub surface. This could result in a slightly deflected tub shell, which can cause leaks around the seals...

Cons:

1. Serviceability. If you do develop a leak, well, we all know how much of a PITA that could be. Accessablity is definately a plus.

2. Upgrading. If you ever wanted to add pop up speaker or some other such item, running wiring and components is going to be a real pain....

3. rodents. They sure do love to burrow into things like foam in the winter. Anything to keep themselves warm. Sure, they could destroy the insulation in a non foamed tub too, but it's much easier to repair. Even more so if a mouse burrows into the foam and hit a hose or electrical wire....

4. Another is......ummm....well.....realistically, other than fixing a leak that a fully foamed tub might have prevented due to the above pros, I can't really think of another............and I'm really trying to think of another to balance the sides here.......

There's absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing one of the less expensive brands on the market today (IE:Costco). I considered several before I bought my Hot Springs.

The buyer just has to be happy with what they get and accept whatever compromises the manufacturer has made to meet that price point......

[arf1410]

I look at foam filled as a big negative

There's absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing one of the less expensive brands on the market today (IE:Costco). I considered several before I bought my Hot Springs.

The buyer just has to be happy with what they get and accept whatever compromises the manufacturer has made to meet that price point......

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

[great white]

I look at foam filled as a big negative

There's absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing one of the less expensive brands on the market today (IE:Costco). I considered several before I bought my Hot Springs.

The buyer just has to be happy with what they get and accept whatever compromises the manufacturer has made to meet that price point......

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

I think your question may be too broad for the answer you're looking for. Pick a tub to compare the costco one to and then you can line components/specs up side by side for a meaningful comparison. But even then, some things may not be readily available. Some examples might be seal construction and bearing materials. Not to mention how much a manufacturer may have spent on developing/building a vacuum forming mold or the employee wages involved in hand rolling fiberglass (if the tub has that).

As in any manufactured product, there's much more to price differences than just the installed components.

However, if you have decided on buying a Strong/Costco model, do the differences (real or perceived) really matter?

Buy one and be happy with your purchase.

Go for a soak!

[hrustar]

Here's my two cents.

I'd rather know I paid a little more and tried to get superior quality (whether real or perceived) instead of paying less and hoping it works out. If you like the Costco tub, go for it and don't look for justification from others. It it works out for you, fantastic. If not, oh well, live and learn.

[arf1410]

Here's my two cents.

I'd rather know I paid a little more and tried to get superior quality (whether real or perceived) instead of paying less and hoping it works out. If you like the Costco tub, go for it and don't look for justification from others. It it works out for you, fantastic. If not, oh well, live and learn.

Yes, I'm leaning towards the Strong CX80, but waiting for them to offer that with a lounger. However, it is tough buying something of that price sight unseen, and I am an admitted novice. However, also I am an mechanical engineer, who's brain functions on "facts and data", and I do have a little knowledge of manufacturing, design, and patent processes. I am willing to pay a little more for a lot more quality, but at best I have seen on this board I can pay a lot more, for possibly a little more quality. There are a lot of people with some Strong (pun intended) opinions on this (and most other!) forums, but there are unable or unwilling to supply hard facts and data. I understand that unless you have worked as an engineer/designer at a spa manufacturing company, a surely small sub-set of people, you probably wouldn't have the details of pump brands / model #s to debate a better pump, etc. But I sense some of the contributors here may have (or still do) worked at a Spa retailer(s), but don't want to share specific wholesale price data. Keeping those secrets makes me suspicious, which is why I SPECULATE Joe corner retail spa store pays $5000 for a tub they retail for $8000. I certainly accept a $12000 tub may have better components that the Strong/Costco tub. But I'm not willing to spend $12k, though I am willing to spend $7-8k if someone can supply real data to show its better than the $5k Costco tub...and so far, they have not...

[Roger]

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

I'm absolutly sure you don't want this answer so whats the difference? Very specificly a top end tub will have a better fit and finish, better jets, better engineered plumbing system, cleaner, neater equipment bay, better pumps and control system. A long standing reputation for reliability and longevity. A better warranty, a dealer to back up your purchase and answer your questions right down the road, or if your worried about your dealer a manufacturer that hasn't comprimised quality for a price point forced upon them by a big box store.

7500 is a good price for this though 8500 might be better. But you have a return policy with Costco.....maybe.

[Roger]

I looked a a Strong cxi80 the other day. It's not a bad tub but it's also not the same as an 8500 dollar D1. Allot of bullet jets and only like 8-10 real jets and they are just spinners. Basic value pumps and controler. Worth the 5 grand.

Maybe you should try out some jets before you buy. Feel the differences. I think waterway makes about 70-80 different jets ranging in price from 12 to 60 bucks. Haven't looked at there new catolog.

[great white]

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

I'm absolutly sure you don't want this answer so whats the difference? Very specificly a top end tub will have a better fit and finish, better jets, better engineered plumbing system, cleaner, neater equipment bay, better pumps and control system. A long standing reputation for reliability and longevity. A better warranty, a dealer to back up your purchase and answer your questions right down the road, or if your worried about your dealer a manufacturer that hasn't comprimised quality for a price point forced upon them by a big box store.

7500 is a good price for this though 8500 might be better. But you have a return policy with Costco.....maybe.

Well, to play devils advocate here......

The equipment bay of my (on order) Hot Springs Grandee was actually a bit of a dissapointment on "neatness" when they popped the door off the floor model for me. Wiring was bundled sloppily, wires running everywhere, no cable standoffs, etc. The equipment compartment of the H2o model was 10 times "neater". In thier defence though, everything was grometted and/or molexed. The remaining connections were all very robust and solid. Visably more so than the H2o, calspa, beachcomber and Arctic models we looked at.

Now, did it turn me off on the whole package?

Obviously not. I know there's more to quality than just routing the wiring neatly.

But I did expect to see neat and impecable wire routing and specifcally cut lengths rather than bundles for the price I paid.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Keeping those secrets makes me suspicious, which is why I SPECULATE Joe corner retail spa store pays $5000 for a tub they retail for $8000. I certainly accept a $12000 tub may have better components that the Strong/Costco tub. But I'm not willing to spend $12k, though I am willing to spend $7-8k if someone can supply real data to show its better than the $5k Costco tub...and so far, they have not...

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

I know from experience that quality matters when you care about energy efficiency, equipment longevity, structure, jets, plumbing integrity, etc. I see quality brands that r 14, 17, 20 yrs old going strong. I know lesser quality spas r cheap/free on Craigslist all the time when 8 yrs old for a reason (u haul it u got it) and r rarely around after a decade.

Call a local independent spa service tech in your area. Get his opinion of big box spas the past 5 years or decade versus premium spas. See what he has to say. I get the feeling after he tells you "you get what you pay for" you'll still look to justify buying the costco LOL.

[Roger]

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

Car dealers....LOL I am the fleet manager for the company I work for and have purchased about 60 vehicles in the last 7 years. Invoice is what they pay minus manufacturer volume discount, finiance discount and so on and so on!!.

OK sorry back on topic.

[great white]

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

Car dealers....LOL I am the fleet manager for the company I work for and have purchased about 60 vehicles in the last 7 years. Invoice is what they pay minus manufacturer volume discount, finiance discount and so on and so on!!.

OK sorry back on topic.

Actually, the price on the window sticker is "manufacturers suggested retail" and has nothing to do with what it cost to buy or build it....


Crap, off topic again....

[arf1410]

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

I'm absolutly sure you don't want this answer so whats the difference? Very specificly a top end tub will have a better fit and finish, better jets, better engineered plumbing system, cleaner, neater equipment bay, better pumps and control system. A long standing reputation for reliability and longevity. A better warranty, a dealer to back up your purchase and answer your questions right down the road, or if your worried about your dealer a manufacturer that hasn't comprimised quality for a price point forced upon them by a big box store.

7500 is a good price for this though 8500 might be better. But you have a return policy with Costco.....maybe.

I DO want those answers! But I want specific answers! What is the specific pump manufacturer and model number in a Strong CX80, and how does it compare to specific pump part number in someone else's 8500$ tub? Same question for Control Panel, and any other parts that can be objectively measured. Unless you have that info, and can provide specific examples (even for other tubs) how can I separate a salesman's hype from fact?


I tried to compare Strong warranty 5/2/1 with Cal Spa (a mid range product?), for example, and my first google "hit" was someone screaming about their refusal to honor a 5 year warranty because a seal went bad and water leaked into a pump...I googled "Jacuzzi" and "warranty" and I found it is a parts and labor long warranty sounds good...I also found someone complaining that Jacuzzi tells them to contact the retailer, and the retailer telling them to contact Jacuzzi for warranty service... I have confidence in Costco backing up a warranty...

[arf1410]

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

Of course they won't tell you...and if I was in retail, I wouldn't want that secret out either! which is why I use the internet to research just about every purchase >$1000, where bargaining on price is an option...to get that information, and I usually am successful!

[great white]

Some info on the subject in question from the Costco site:

Evolution Spas™ CSXi80
80-Jet, 6-Person Spa with Storage Steps

Relax and enjoy! Your home will become the social center where friends and family gather. Any day can be special with your own personal spa retreat! The luxury edition Evolution CSXi80 has 80 powerful stainless steel accented Hydrotherapy Jets. An astounding 680 gallons per minute is driven through our two-speed, dual-pump, HydroDrive system for maximum massage power… while still using LESS ENERGY than traditional pumps! Feel stress melt away as dedicated rollover neck and shoulder jets soothe aching muscles. The Lucite™ acrylic shell is enhanced with Microban technology for a cleaner spa using fewer chemicals and comes in two designer colors: Sterling Silver (white) shell with millstone slate rock cabinet or Pearl Shadow (black) shell with grey slate rock cabinet. Ergonomic seating for six adults is enhanced by a programmable LED light display that includes 5” underwater light and 16 separate starburst points of light, adjusted topside with the touch of a button.



Our elegant, slate rock resin DURA-LAST™ cabinet is beautiful yet it is so durable it can be placed on any level and stable surface without a spa pad saving you hundreds of dollars on install costs!



The most advanced technological innovations in the industry converge in this amazing spa. Unlike other spa frames, the CSXi80’s cabinet will NEVER require maintenance and will be just as beautiful in the years to come as the very first day! The cabinet is impervious to pests and inhibits the growth of bacteria for a cleaner spa, inside and out! Wood frames will rot, warp and are prone to infestations. Steel frames, whether galvanized or powder coated, will rust and weaken but the DURA-LAST™ cabinet will never deteriorate and we guarantee it with the industry’s first LIFETIME WARRANTY!



Our DURA-LAST™ cabinet is constructed with a custom blend of both virgin and recycled materials and is itself 100% recyclable! The unique HEATSHIELD™ insulation system results in almost zero release of harmful CFCs into the environment. Our beautiful Lucite Acrylic shells are reinforced with environmentally sound Acrylobond, which releases no harmful Styrene into the atmosphere and is the eco-friendly alternative to fiberglass. Our commitment to the environment extends to our factory and all Evolution Spas are made in the USA.



A Commitment to the Environment

Our patent-pending insulated FORGE-CAST™ system reduces noise and is the most energy efficient technology on the market today. The patent-pending HEATSHIELD™ insulated cabinet base and walls have a unique double walled construction that is filled with 3.9lb, high-density, closed cell foam – similar to a thermos or freezer. The heat generated by the pumps within this thermal zone is constantly being recycled to heat your spa, saving energy and money!



Choose from Two Color Combinations:

Sterling Silver (white with iridescent pearl marbling) shell paired with Millstone Granite Slate Rock Cabinet
Pearl Shadow (black) shell paired with Grey Granite Slate Rock Cabinet
Specifications:

Seating: 6-person
Dimensions: 92" x 92" x 36" (outside cabinet)
Jet Pump: 680 gallons per minute, 2-speed dual-pump, high performance, energy saving HydroDrive system controlled by digital topside control panel
Jet Count: 80 stainless steel accented, including:
12 leg jets
8 shoulder/neck jets
4 foot/ankle jets
4 hip jets
23 large jets
29 cluster jets
Air Controls: 4 controls for zoned massage control
Weight Dry / Filled: 950 lbs. / 3,920 lbs.
Water Capacity: 355 USG
Electrical: 220 V / 240 V / 50 Amp GFCI Breaker Required (not included - electrical connections must be made by qualified and licensed personnel. Improper installations present hazards, which can result in personal injury or property damage. Please contact a licensed residential electrician for these services.)
Heater: 5.5 kW Balboa
Filter: Top loading cartridge
Ozonator: Yes
Insulation: 3.9 lb, high density spray foamed cabinet
Features:

Steps included
Water Treatment: Corona Discharge Ozone System installed creates a more pure form of ozone – more efficient, cleaner water, fewer chemicals required
Water Features: Custom matching back lit resin waterfall
Lighting: 5" color-changing LED underwater light and 16 synchronized, color-changing LED points of light
Headrests: 2 Headrests
DURA-LAST™ Dual-Walled Cabinet System is energy efficient, quiet and is designed to withstand extreme temperatures
Cover: High Quality Tapered Cover
Warranty:

LIFETIME WARRANTY on cabinet system
5 year against cracking, blistering, fading, and delaminating of shell
2 year for all mechanical and solid state components
2 year on authorized labor
1 year on cover
For more information about this product, visit our website www.evospas.com, email info@evospas.com or call the Evolution Spas™ Service Center: 800-787-6649 (8am - 6pm EST, M-F).

http://www.evospas.com/CSXi80.html

Interesting, FWIW:

http://forum.ih8mud....pa-hot-tub.html

In the video posted here:

http://evo-spas.com/...hp?model=csxi80

You can see the controler as a balboa vs series:

http://www.balboains...om/page142.html

So, it's logical that the top panel is the balboa model designed to work with it:

http://www.balboains...om/page158.html

It certainly looks similar, minus a few features/buttons. Changing the "skin" on the controller is a relatively simple operation when the hot tub company orders them.

Hmm, by the adress on the picture for the costco model:



It appears to be calleda "vienna" (right click, properties, read the name). And, oddly enough, the "vienna 66" model on the strong web site : http://www.strongpoo...e.php?pageid=19 ; looks pretty much the same. Using that name may reveal more component info if you put google to work. Just be aware that the "Vienna 66" Strong sells and the CSXi80 costco buys from them may have differences....

If you keep digging, the info is out there....

[DK117]

I looked a a Strong cxi80 the other day. It's not a bad tub but it's also not the same as an 8500 dollar D1. Allot of bullet jets and only like 8-10 real jets and they are just spinners. Basic value pumps and controler. Worth the 5 grand.

Maybe you should try out some jets before you buy. Feel the differences. I think waterway makes about 70-80 different jets ranging in price from 12 to 60 bucks. Haven't looked at there new catolog.

Roger, Strong is a value tub, we get it, we purchase with our eyes open. Question to you ... what would an $8500 D1 cost from Costco? This Strong/Costco discussion is old news. What we've never arrived at is the margin / mark up of dealers. Personally I have a great relationship with my local dealer. I think they make their money on service, chemicals and ... well gas stoves. They've been great. So after purchase service can be obtained from a source other than where the spa was purchased (as you must know as an independent tech.) So can you provide us with specific insight on margins? Can anyone? Will anyone?

DK117

[arf1410]

Found this on this forum:

"Jacuzzi and Sundance want their dealers to make a 40% margin and sale at MSRP. SO find out what the MSRP and deduct 40%. Next add $250-$400 for shipping and that should be a very accurate number of what they paid. (I am a former Sundance dealer and almost started selling Jacuzzi 2 years ago.) I discounted a lot compared to any other dealer but would never drop below a $2500.00 profit margin. If the customer wanted to haggle I always suggest another hot tub store since I was always at least a thousand below any other Sundance Spa dealership. "

Lets assume for the sake of discussion, it is factual, which of course I cannot verify...

I would be shocked if Costco profits more than $500, and could easily believe it is closer to $100-$200. And even though Spa aren't Costco's best selling item, they drive such a hard bargain on wholesalers, I tend to think they pay less then a spa dealer...which is why I really believe you get what you pay for, and a $4900 Costco tub would have similar build quality as a 7000-8000 tub sold at a Spa Dealer.

Let me throw in another Costco example...being here in the Seattle area, where Costco is based, we get lots of Costco news in the local business pages. Earlier this week, Costco stopped stocking Coke, because Coke refused to sell Costco product at the price point Costco wanted...Sure they'll kiss and make up soon, but very few merchants have that power (or balls!) to say "see you later" to Coke. What was happening was Costco was retailing Coke for a price lower than the local bottlers were selling product to merchants, and the bottlers were getting upset that Ed's mini-mart , etc was buying product at Costco, rather than the bottlers. Coke tried to raise the price to Costco to appease the bottlers, and Costco said "NO"

Its within the realm of possibility that some of the previous Costco Spa brands (and maybe even Strong now) were actually selling product to Costco at a loss, in the hope that with enough volume, they could drive down production costs, and make money in the long run. Sufficient volume never came, and they went under.

[arf1410]

OK, I guess everyone here now knows I must be a loser if I spend Friday nights on an internet Forum :-)

Thanks to some clue that Great White provided, it appears the Costco Evo CX80 is nearly identical to the Strong Vienna, (though the costco seems to have a few more features) I found the Strong Vienna advertised ranging from $6999 to $8275! That supports some of my claims!

[great white]

OK, I guess everyone here now knows I must be a loser if I spend Friday nights on an internet Forum :-)

Thanks to some clue that Great White provided, it appears the Costco Evo CX80 is nearly identical to the Strong Vienna, (though the costco seems to have a few more features) I found the Strong Vienna advertised for $8275! That supports some of my claims!

Stressing about the difference between a dealer price and the costco price is pointless. Costco is going to beat a dealer, not even a question. Also, I've found costco listings for the csxi from 4779.00 to 6499.00 on the web which shows how pointless wondering about who has the highest mark up is.

I guess you have to decide if you're looking for the best price and buy the tub that fits, or choose the tub you want and find the best price.

If your major concern is price, just buy the Costco tub and then enjoy a nice long soak!

We, however, went the other way and found the most comfortable/nicest tub (for us at least) and then squeezed out the best price we could get.....

[hot_water]

Yup, it's even identified as a Vienna on the shipping packaging.

Costco CEO Jim Senegal has stated that Costco doesn't mark anything up more than 14%. They make their money off membership dues. For lots of items, especially high end stuff, markup is less. So arf is more or less right. But I think it's really more about the value proposition that each tub offers... and that's subjective since each will product will have features that appeal to some of us more than others.

As I evaluated my purchase, I thought Strong had the clear edge on the cabinet. You can get a nicer cabinet from some of the high end guys, but it will cost you some major bucks. The strong rotomolded cabinet is pretty nice looking, great warranty, very good floor. The Balboa VS is the same quality and reliability as Balboa's higher end units (it handles fewer pumps and fewer two-speed pumps than you can get in the higher end models). You can call Balboa on this, I did. Some of the name brand guys provide the titanium heater, which may last longer. So they do better there. I rate the Strong acrylic/acrylobond shell as superior to an abs shell, but would prefer a name brand acrylic/fiberglass shell because of the track record. I rate the Strong's serviceability as a HUGE advantage. It will be VERY easy to work on this spa, even compared to other perimeter insulated models. As for build fit and finish and general workmanship, the Strong is very good - surprisingly good. I would call that even. I am very happy with Strong-supplied cover, but I rated it a negative based on some comments here. I wasn't expecting much but now that's it's here, it looks real good. We shall see how it does over the colder months. As for jets, Strong provides a huge number (80) of jets, but they are all single stream jets. I don't mind those but some people may prefer the cluster jets. I would have liked it better if there was a cluster jet or two in each position. The name brand guys do better in this area. I called pumps a tie... the Strong uses good motors, classs F insulation, rated at 12 amps (two of these plus the 5.5 kW heater means that 12 A is about as much as you can load a 60 A service with (60 A shouldn't draw more than 48 amps continuously).

So, the Strong wins in a few areas but loses in some others. I think it's a mistake to get wrapped up in all this nonsense about how this $5k one compares to that $8k one. It all boils down to what are you looking for in a spa. For me, the pro's for the Strong were good and the con's were not that important.... for example I can change that heater to a titanium model in three or four years..... so the value proposition put forth by the Strong - against my personal requirements - made Strong an easy choice. By the way, I didn't feel that way about the CalSpa offerings offerings by Costco - they just didn't suit me too well, although they could suit others just dandy.

[Roger]

Its within the realm of possibility that some of the previous Costco Spa brands (and maybe even Strong now) were actually selling product to Costco at a loss, in the hope that with enough volume, they could drive down production costs, and make money in the long run. Sufficient volume never came, and they went under.

There ya go, cut a few corners cheapen up a few things here and there and pray. Sound business plan.....LOL

[salp]

OK, I guess everyone here now knows I must be a loser if I spend Friday nights on an internet Forum :-)

Thanks to some clue that Great White provided, it appears the Costco Evo CX80 is nearly identical to the Strong Vienna, (though the costco seems to have a few more features) I found the Strong Vienna advertised for $8275! That supports some of my claims!

Stressing about the difference between a dealer price and the costco price is pointless. Costco is going to beat a dealer, not even a question. Also, I've found costco listings for the csxi from 4779.00 to 6499.00 on the web which shows how pointless wondering about who has the highest mark up is.

I guess you have to decide if you're looking for the best price and buy the tub that fits, or choose the tub you want and find the best price.

If your major concern is price, just buy the Costco tub and then enjoy a nice long soak!

We, however, went the other way and found the most comfortable/nicest tub (for us at least) and then squeezed out the best price we could get.....

you took the words right out of my mouth.......

[hottubdan]

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

Of course they won't tell you...and if I was in retail, I wouldn't want that secret out either! which is why I use the internet to research just about every purchase >$1000, where bargaining on price is an option...to get that information, and I usually am successful!

Just curious. Besides spas and cars, what else can you bargain on?
Besides, you can't bargain at Costco.

[hottubdan]

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

I'm absolutly sure you don't want this answer so whats the difference? Very specificly a top end tub will have a better fit and finish, better jets, better engineered plumbing system, cleaner, neater equipment bay, better pumps and control system. A long standing reputation for reliability and longevity. A better warranty, a dealer to back up your purchase and answer your questions right down the road, or if your worried about your dealer a manufacturer that hasn't comprimised quality for a price point forced upon them by a big box store.

7500 is a good price for this though 8500 might be better. But you have a return policy with Costco.....maybe.

I DO want those answers! But I want specific answers! What is the specific pump manufacturer and model number in a Strong CX80, and how does it compare to specific pump part number in someone else's 8500$ tub? Same question for Control Panel, and any other parts that can be objectively measured. Unless you have that info, and can provide specific examples (even for other tubs) how can I separate a salesman's hype from fact?


I tried to compare Strong warranty 5/2/1 with Cal Spa (a mid range product?), for example, and my first google "hit" was someone screaming about their refusal to honor a 5 year warranty because a seal went bad and water leaked into a pump...I googled "Jacuzzi" and "warranty" and I found it is a parts and labor long warranty sounds good...I also found someone complaining that Jacuzzi tells them to contact the retailer, and the retailer telling them to contact Jacuzzi for warranty service... I have confidence in Costco backing up a warranty...

I'm in the business and I can't tell you that. What I do know is what you suspect. Dealer's costs are more than Csotco's, often for a better product. Dealer's margins are more than Costco's. NEEDED to be in business.

What I learned long ago, is that some people prefer to buy from box stores. Doesn't matter the product. Some people prefer to buy from specialty retailers. It's OK.

[hottubdan]

Found this on this forum:

"Jacuzzi and Sundance want their dealers to make a 40% margin and sale at MSRP. SO find out what the MSRP and deduct 40%. Next add $250-$400 for shipping and that should be a very accurate number of what they paid. (I am a former Sundance dealer and almost started selling Jacuzzi 2 years ago.) I discounted a lot compared to any other dealer but would never drop below a $2500.00 profit margin. If the customer wanted to haggle I always suggest another hot tub store since I was always at least a thousand below any other Sundance Spa dealership. "

Lets assume for the sake of discussion, it is factual, which of course I cannot verify...

I would be shocked if Costco profits more than $500, and could easily believe it is closer to $100-$200. And even though Spa aren't Costco's best selling item, they drive such a hard bargain on wholesalers, I tend to think they pay less then a spa dealer...which is why I really believe you get what you pay for, and a $4900 Costco tub would have similar build quality as a 7000-8000 tub sold at a Spa Dealer.

Let me throw in another Costco example...being here in the Seattle area, where Costco is based, we get lots of Costco news in the local business pages. Earlier this week, Costco stopped stocking Coke, because Coke refused to sell Costco product at the price point Costco wanted...Sure they'll kiss and make up soon, but very few merchants have that power (or balls!) to say "see you later" to Coke. What was happening was Costco was retailing Coke for a price lower than the local bottlers were selling product to merchants, and the bottlers were getting upset that Ed's mini-mart , etc was buying product at Costco, rather than the bottlers. Coke tried to raise the price to Costco to appease the bottlers, and Costco said "NO"

Its within the realm of possibility that some of the previous Costco Spa brands (and maybe even Strong now) were actually selling product to Costco at a loss, in the hope that with enough volume, they could drive down production costs, and make money in the long run. Sufficient volume never came, and they went under.

We have sold Jacuzzi and I can tell you the quote above is not even close to being accurate.

Fact is even if a spa is sold to Costco for $500 over cost, it doesn't take a lot of returns to make that "profit" a loss.

Seattle is the home of two of the most successful dealers in our industry. Aquaquip sells Sundance and Jacuzzi; Olympic Hot Tub sells Hot Spring. Have you visited them? Wonder what your thoughts are.

[hot_water]

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

Of course they won't tell you...and if I was in retail, I wouldn't want that secret out either! which is why I use the internet to research just about every purchase >$1000, where bargaining on price is an option...to get that information, and I usually am successful!

Just curious. Besides spas and cars, what else can you bargain on?
Besides, you can't bargain at Costco.

Depends on where you buy your stuff. I tend to get major appliances, TVs, stereo gear, major tools (machinery such as welding gear, dill press, etc), jewelry and other things of that ilk at small dealers, and always make offers. It never hurts to make an offer. It's rare that the owner/manager of a store that's not a chain will refuse to work out a price. Well, for jewelry the small jewelers are not the best... there are major dealers that will negotiate and you can get some good pricing, as long as you educate yourself first.

[hot_water]

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that a dealer can or should compare with Costco pricing. They can't, because the business models are so different. How could anyone compete with a business who doesn't aim to make their profit off of sales, and will accept returns for life based only on "customer satisfaction"?? I feel sorry for dealers in this scenario. They deserve to be able to earn a living just like any other business. But to do so, they need to offer consumers a good reason to buy their product for 3k more than the one at Costco. That's more or less the bottom line, no?

You migh argue that the major manufacturers are doing this. But it's all subjective, depending on what you find valuable. "Great white" has commented on the snob appeal (no offense intended - we all buy stuff for status sometimes) of having a name brand, but that might not matter in the slightest to another buyer. It doesn't matter to me... I could care less, for instance, if it's a Hotspring - as long as it looks good and works good, I find that my guests enjoy it no matter what the nameplate says.... they don't know diddly about who makes these things, anyway.

But... from a consumer perspective, the value proposition offered by Costco is hard to argue against. As long as the spa meets your personal needs and you are comfortable foregoing the benefits of dealer support (sometimes worth a lot, sometimes not worth squat depending on the dealer and the consumer's competence level).... then you simply aren't going to beat Costco. It's sold at near cost, for cryin' out loud! All the other arguments are just peripheral.

The quality arguments are nebulous at best. I will agree that some of the Keyes sspas were poor. I won't agree that all the Hydrospas were junk -- mine was quite good for the three years I had it, with no signs of problems at all. Yes it could blow up for the new owners at any time. But it was half the price of the Sundance Optima, compares well, and could be repaired quite easily. Besides.... the Strong *isn't* any of those other brands. About all you can really say about the Strong is that none of us knows anything about the longevity of the Strong product. On the other hand, if it proves to be a disaster, back it goes.

So, as the old saying goes, "You pays your money and you makes your choice".

I do personally appreciate industry posters that acknowledge the tradeoffs more accurately and objectively and can discuss the pros and cons of the various types without the somewhat absurd "Costco sells junk" undertones. This is far more useful to potential buyers.

[arf1410]

OK, I'll attempt to reply to multiple questions...

I don't think I'm stressing out as much as doing "due diligence", as this is potentially the first time I may purchase a $5k product sight unseen, if I go with Costco, and I checked, there are no local Strong dealers here. I am willing to spend up to ~$7500, but of course would rather spend $5k...so I am attempting to research what that extra $2500 would get me.

I work for a major manufacturing company, and when we start producing a new product, we are literally $BILLIONS in the red, selling product in a sense for way less than cost, for the first 3-5+ years, but assuming we stay in business, make that up as time goes on, without actually changing our prices, but production costs go down. A start up Spa company may very well be gambling on the same production model, but of course on a smaller scale. So what if it is flawed business model...I might as well try to profit on their "flawed model"

In addition to houses and cars, in recent years, and using the internet for data, I have bargained on furniture, appliances, pianos, exercise equipment, AV equipment. You CAN bargain at Sears, and BestBUy, to name a couple major chains, in addition to most local chains or stores.

I bought a high end treadmill a few years ago. Turns out most of the major treadmill brands are sold only at one store (or chain) within a given metro area, so you cannot go down the street and try to get a better price on the same item, like you can with a car. On the internet I found a copy of a letter the treadmill company sent to retail outlets stating what the minimum price they could contractually sell the treadmill for was...I always thought that was illegal/price fixing, but a lawyer friend of mine explained how the nuances of the language of the letter avoided that issue. But anyway I told the store I knew about there minimum price point, and saved $700. Buying other equipment at the same time helped.

I have already been to Aquaquip, a northwest spa chain, and will also look at Olympic...and thats exactly the problem. What they show me, that at least on paper seems comparable to the Costco, seem to cost ~$8k, and I am attempting to use this forum to determine if that extra $3k gets me real, and substantial value, or $500 in more value (which I would pay for) and $2000 in higher overhead and commissions...which I dont want.