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[Pstores]

Anyone tried this product yet?? If it works as they say this will be cost effective and make things very easy.

[The Pup]

http://www.cwsnaturally.com/spa/

Check out that nasty bio-film!

...I have never incurred biofilm in nearly 40 years of continuous spa ownership and I use very little in the way of chemicals (usually $3-$6 per month). By following tried-and-true water chemistry/sanitation methods, I have enjoyed trouble-free spa use.

Although I am open-minded, I am very weary to scrap something so simple and effective for the latest "new and improved" thing.

[Pstores]

http://www.cwsnaturally.com/spa/

Check out that nasty bio-film!

...I have never incurred biofilm in nearly 40 years of continuous spa ownership and I use very little in the way of chemicals (usually $3-$6 per month). By following tried-and-true water chemistry/sanitation methods, I have enjoyed trouble-free spa use.

Although I am open-minded, I am very weary to scrap something so simple and effective for the latest "new and improved" thing.

Me too, but they used it in a very large pubilic pool not far from my house and it worked like a charm. And my spa gal says it may be possible to go a year between fills. But, she also sems skeptical. I may try it for fun and see for myself. Was just hoping others may have tried it already.

[chem geek]

There's another sphagnum moss product talked about in this thread. Unless the moss catalyzes oxidation of urea and ammonia (from sweat and urine), you're still going to have a rough oxidizer demand where every person-hour of soaking at hot (100-104F) spa temps will require approximately 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor, 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach, or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (MPS) to oxidize the bather waste. There are enzyme products that can reduce chlorine usage, but as Nitro points out the cost of Dichlor-then-bleach is so low already that one must question why such extra-added products are necessary.

The Nature2 plus (mostly) non-chlorine shock (MPS) is another approach that many are happy with. And, of course, there is bromine which lets you have a bromine feeder for less maintenance since the dosing is more automatic.

The main thing that the sphagnum moss products don't talk about is how planktonic (that is, free-floating) bacteria are killed extraordinarily quickly when chlorine is present so the best way of preventing biofilm formation is to kill bacteria before they can form significant biofilms in the first place. If you are the type that can't or won't maintain sufficient sanitizer levels almost all of the time, then products such as Nature2 can help and maybe this spagnum moss product might be of some use.

[Pstores]

Well, I got the product to try. It seems to be working really great for the ones that are using it. I'll give a full report on it after it's up and runnning and on a continueing bases there after. Heck if it save me money and time than it's worth it. Never know till someone gives it a try.

[aschwartz]

http://www.cwsnaturally.com/spa/

Check out that nasty bio-film!

...I have never incurred biofilm in nearly 40 years of continuous spa ownership and I use very little in the way of chemicals (usually $3-$6 per month). By following tried-and-true water chemistry/sanitation methods, I have enjoyed trouble-free spa use.

Although I am open-minded, I am very weary to scrap something so simple and effective for the latest "new and improved" thing.

I believe in the saying that "if it ain't broke don't fix it" so if your method is working keep at it. I would beg to question you about never having biofilm. Scientist will tell you that bacteria and biofilm are every where in our environment. Did you know that the tarter on your teeth is a form of biofilm. Have you ever had the ring around your spa at the water line? Have your ever had a calcium build up on the spa surfaces? Calcium is not sticky so then what is it sticking to? Have you ever had a foamy spa? Red eyes, dry skin, unpleasant odors caused by chloramines? How about water clarity issues? The chances are that 80 to 90% of these issues are biofilm related. Check out this website; http://www.erc.montana.edu/

The spa manufactuers begin the contamination process when they wet test every spa they build. Even brand new pumps and heaters are wet tested. The brand new spa shown on our website wwwcwsnaturally.com had never been used when we flushed it for this video. The spa company now uses our system in their plant that has led up to a 90% reduction in biofilm formation.

This "new and improved" thing has been treating water for centuries in Northern Minnesota and Southern Canada. The Vikings stored their food in it for long voyages. The Native Americans used it for wound dressings and to pack their babies in. The Red Cross harvested it in Minnesota during WWI to use for wound dressings before the invention of antibiotics.

Pathogenic bacteria, the majoity of whom live in biofilms, still kill 500,000 people in the US every year according to a July article in Discover Magazine: http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jul-aug/1...earchterm=Slime

This species of sphagnum moss is nature's way to treat water and is the only truly "green" option in this industry. It is amazing how it effects water quality while reducing the work it takes to care for your pool or spa.

[The Pup]

Have you ever had the ring around your spa at the water line?

No.

Have your ever had a calcium build up on the spa surfaces?

No.

Have you ever had a foamy spa? Red eyes, dry skin, unpleasant odors caused by chloramines?

No.

How about water clarity issues?

No.

To elaborate/qualify my above responses...with nearly 40 years of spa ownership...with proper water maintenance...with established tried and true sanitation methods...with absolute minimal introduction of external detergents, fragrance, antiperspirant, etc. products, I can say I have not had any biofilm issues of any significance or concern. In fact, this is self-evident that I am still here and can attest to not incurring such alarming waterline rings, calcium build-up, foam, red eyes, dry skin, unpleasant odors or water clarity issues of any importance (all mitigated through conventional proper water maintenance [assumption]).

Regardless, if your purported product (read assumed hidden agenda) is the next advancement in spa water maintenance...I will keep an open (but cautious) mind.

[Pstores]

Maquis Reward used about 9 months total. I bought it used from a good Dealer. They used it about 6 months and me about 3 months.



Well just an update. I cleaned with Spa Purge and Dishwasher Detergent for 24 hours. Ran jets and kept the temp at 104. Some slime not to much. Drained Tub. Next using the Spanaturally Spa Flush I refilled and brought up to 96 degree and added the flush. At 4 am this morning I added 40 onces of bleach to about 400 gallons of water. Spa holds 375 gallon and I had it alittle over filled. Ran 4 cycles and after the first run had a nasty yellow, black, blueish ring. Took pics and cleaned and kept running the next 3 cycles. So, I guess atleast their flush works much better than the SpaPurge product. It was only in the tub for 13 hours compared to the Spa Purge for 24 hours. I am now drianing the tub and washing it down. Going to blow out the lines wiith garden hose. Partially fill to get out all the bleach, Spa Flush and nasties. Bring up to temp and go from there. I'll keep posting on my findings. If it works you all will know if it works or not.

I am just an end user, I have no ties at all to this company. This will be a non-bias report from a consumer.

[chem geek]

Looks like Spa System Flush can be purchased separately so if it's a superior cleaning product for a new spa then that could be a good choice. By the way, there is a Spa System Flush that was recommended on this forum as far back as 2005. It would be interesting to compare the two. It looks like Spa Purge may be not as effective.

I'll be interested to see the 90%, or even any significant, reduction in chlorine (oxidizer) usage claimed by SpaNaturally. What kind of sanitizer/oxidizer method do you plan to use? Will you be using chlorine? If so, will you be using Dichlor-only or starting with Dichlor and then switching to bleach after cumulatively using around 33 ppm FC of Dichlor? Will you keep the spa water hot (100-104F)? Will you soak every day and if so, for how long? I look forward to seeing your results.

Since those using the Dichlor-then-bleach method have clean clear water that lasts for 6 months or more (and is still crystal clear at that time), the main benefits would be a potentially superior initial cleaning using Spa System flush ($20) and maybe reduction in oxidizer usage (remains to be seen). It might also be insurance to inhibit bacterial growth if the chlorine level gets too low, similar to Nature2, though that remains to be seen. Each refill package of the moss is $17 and for most spas (< 450 gallons) it is one package per month so it had better do something significantly better than simply maintaining a sufficient chlorine residual at all times.

Richard

[Dr. Spa]

Looks like Spa System Flush can be purchased separately so if it's a superior cleaning product for a new spa then that could be a good choice. By the way, there is a Spa System Flush that was recommended on this forum as far back as 2005. It would be interesting to compare the two. It looks like Spa Purge may be not as effective.

I'd be willing to bet these are both the exact same product. Just one has a label glued onto the bottle and is twice the cost.

This is based on the bottles being the exact same shape, and the name "Spa System Flush" being a trademarked name.

[Pstores]

Ok, just got back from te Hot Tub store for water analysis.
PH 7.5
Alkalinity 219
Hardness 279
No Bromine or chlorine.

Next I will be adding 2 Tbs Spaguard PH Decreaser, and 2 Tbs, 2 tsp Spaguard Bominating Concentrate. I will add the Moss in the morning. And set my Inline Spa Frog Bromine at setting 1 instead of 4. I will keep my Bromine levels around 1 and no higher than 2. Instead of 2 to 4. The big thing will be to see if my ph stays more inline and I don't have to use the stain and scale. And I can go with a lower bromine level.

And yes I looked into the Flush they are the same.

[Pstores]

After rereading the directions I should have set the bomine at 1 ppm. Dealer had suggested the 2 Tbs plus 2 Tsp before adding the moss. I will have to get the PPM down before adding the moss. Maybe drain some water tomarrow to speed the process up. I will keep the tub at 104 and it will be used about 6 to 8 times a week. And will keep the bromine around 1 part ppm. Not 1 to 2 like I stated earlier. Any other questions?

[chem geek]

So that we have a good basis for comparison, when you had your inline Spa Frog Bromine set at 4, how frequently did you need to change your cartridge? What else were you adding to the water, such as oxidizer to reactivate more bromine (i.e. non-chlorine shock or chlorine), and in what quantity and frequency? How many people soak in the tub for how long how frequently (on average)?

One Spa Frog Bromine Cartridge is 150 grams and is 96% is BCDMH. This is equivalent to 136.6 grams (4.8 ounces weight) of Dichlor so should handle roughly 8.2 person-hours of soaking at hot (100-104F) temps. If one person soaks for 30 minutes every day, the cartridge would need to be replaced every 16 days or so. Seems pretty frequent to me so I wonder if I did the calculations correctly.

[Pstores]

I was using SpaGuard Spa Shock Oxidizer Non-Chlorine. I was also using the green Bromine which lasted 5 weeks. Now I got a great deal on the yellow and is suppose to last 2 to 4 weeks instead of the green for 4 to 6 weeks. So, if it lasts longer than 4 weeks that would be good. Sorry, I can't directly compare. Or, I could go get a Green for fun though. Maybe I will for a direct comparison. Shocked once to twice a week 3 Tbsp. Also had to used Alkalinity Increaser (SpaGuard Balancer) every other week and that varied on quanity. And usually 1 Tsp PH decreaser once a week. 2 people in the tub and for 1/2 hour each soak. On weekend tub gets used twice a day. And atleast 3 days a week durung the week. Almost forgot also using the spa frog mineral cartrigde set at 4 almost out at 3 months. Plan to eliminate that all together. They run about $28 at the store.

I drained about 60% of the water out tonight to get the Bromine levels down. May have to drain again tomarrow. Directions stated about 1 ppm so I am shooting for that. I's have to see if what the levels are in the morning and decide.

[Pstores]

I also for got looking through my past notes I was using 3 Tbsp SpaGuard Stain and Scale Remover and 1 Tbsp SpaGuard Clarifier. Now, I not going to use either of these. Should about do it. I am going for a water analysis today to make sure the Bromine PPM is about 1 PPM before adding the Moss. Had to drain and refill more this morning. Hopefully I can get the Bomine Levels down as per the instructions.

[The Pup]

In one of my spas, I use the Spa Frog yellow (Bromine) and blue (Mineral) cartridge float system. I buy in-bulk and on my last purchase I paid approximately $80.00 for 9 Bromine and 3 Mineral cartridges. Doing a little algebra based on market observed dependent ratios between the two cartridge products...I believe the approximate unit cost for this given purchase was $4.99 (Bromine) and $11.68 (Mineral) per cartridge. Further, my last bulk purchase of 43% MPS cost approximately $128.00 for 50lbs...which relates to 6.25oz per $.

My observed monthly water sanitation costs:

Bromine cartridge is replaced when expended; for me, it typically will last 3 months with an orifice setting of "3" tethered and floating mid-way between active filter-cycle jets (the manufacture states the cartridge will last 2-4 weeks which is way below my observations).
= $1.66 per month.

Mineral cartridge, per the manufacturer's instructions, should be replaced every 4 months (I have gone 6 months with no ill effects).
= $2.92 per month.

I typically use not more than 2-3oz of MPS per week (CD ozonator; *sanitizer target: 1ppm [+/-0.5ppm]; 420 gallon [as filled]; 100F; 1-or-2 people at 20-50 minutes 3 times per week; *1hr/12hrs filtering cycle)...or approximately 10.75oz per month.
= $1.72 per month.

Total monthly cost to maintain sanitizer levels with Spa Frog: $6.30. Note: This price is dependent on discount out-of-state bulk purchases with nominal shipping charges.

My wife and I travel, so I rely on the proven 3-step Bromine system because it is very simple, somewhat cost effective and keeps my water crystal clear and odor/irritation free for 4-to-6 months between fills. In fact, I used only 2oz of TA+ and 1oz of pH- over 5 months between refills to maintain water balance.

* I maintain my spa's sanitizer levels and daily filtration cycles below recommended minimums (3-5ppm and 2hrs/12hrs respectively) with no ill effects to date.

P.S. If my wife and I did not enjoy traveling so much, I would simply use Nitro's method...which I did (with some variation) for more the 10 years with no issues. I have been using some form of the Bromine 3-step method for over 25 years with no issues (other than somewhat higher costs, but arguably lower effort).

P.P.S. Please let me know if there is a cheaper MPS way to go: http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21724


For reference (Nitro's methods):

Nitro's Approach To Water Maintenance
A guide to Water Balance and Sanitation using Chlorine
http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13634

Lowering Total Alkalinity
How to lower TA, without lowering pH
http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19149

Chlorine Demand (CD)
What is it, and why you should care
http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18706

Decontamination
How to Super Shock your Tub
http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19115

[chem geek]

The Yellow cartridge is 150 grams while the Green cartridge is 200 grams; they are identical otherwise. SpaGuard Spa Shock is 31% potassium monopersulfate (MPS). The rough amount of 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock for every person-hour of soaking that I often refer to is for 43%, so 9.7 tespoons (about 3.2 tablespoons) per person-hour would be needed for this product. So your 3 tablespoons is 9 teaspoons for roughly another person-hour of soak time and you did this once or twice a week so let's say on average 1.5 times so that's 1.5 person-hours of extra soak time.

Your usage is 2 people 30 minutes, so one person-hour, 3 times during the week and 4 times on the weekend so that's 7 person-hours of soaking per week. The non-chlorine shock, as noted above, should handle only one person-hour so that leaves 6 for the cartridge to handle each week. Based on my previous calculations, that's only a little more than one week for the cartridge, assuming it dissolved that fast (which it probably doesn't, as you've seen).

Basically, you haven't been using nearly enough oxidizer. If the cartridge was just for maintaining a residual between soaks, then you would need to have it set lower and add about 3 tablespoons of non-chlorine shock after every soak. This all assumes hot 100-104F spa temps and "normal" amounts of sweat/urine and that no ozonator is being used.

Unfortunately, with a bromine spa it's much harder to know if you have fallen behind because all that gets measured is Total Bromine which includes bromamine. Bromamine is a sanitizer (unlike chloramine which is far weaker) which is why a separate Free Bromine reading isn't done. However, I suspect that in your spa that your Total Bromine reading is mostly bromamine and also have a lot of unoxidized urea.

So how did you figure on setting your cartridge to "4"? What happens if it is set lower? Did you set this based on some water chemistry readings?

I wouldn't do your test (with moss) by setting the cartridge to "1" -- it will obviously last a lot longer that way which doesn't prove anything. Instead, set it the way it was before at "4" and use the same amount of oxidizer you did before and see if anything is different such as the Total Bromine readings. Unfortunately, because not enough oxidizer was used, you probably won't be able to tell if there is any less need for it.

[Pstores]

I tried to keep the Bromine on the test strip about 2 to 4 shooting for 3. Not sure about enough oxidizer or not my water was always very clean till the last week and my TDS was almost maxed out.

The reason I want to leave the Bromine cartridge on 1 is that I don't want the bromine levels much above 1 if at all. Therefore yes it should last much longer. As to before as I had kept my levels around 3. I am not going to be useing any Oxidizer for this test. Just keep the Bromine levels at about 1 and see what happens.

Just got back from the Spa store for water analysis to varify my results. Bromine at .3 from the tub drian and fill today. I added ever so slight amont of Bromine Concentrate to bring it to 1 ppm. I don't want to bleach the moss. Added the moss and here we go.

Saturation = .7
TDS = 200
Bromine= .3 raised it to 1ppm
Alkalinity = 213
Hardness = 264
PH = 7.8 lowered it to 7.3

I did not use any thing but PH Decreaser, some Bromine, and the moss in the tub.
Tub is at 104.7 degrees according to the thermometer. It will stay turned up as far as it will go through out the winter.
I will not be using any stain and scale remover, oxidizer, or any other chemical as far as I can help it.

So it was the official start today....

[Pstores]

In one of my spas, I use the Spa Frog yellow (Bromine) and blue (Mineral) cartridge float system. I buy in-bulk and on my last purchase I paid approximately $80.00 for 9 Bromine and 3 Mineral cartridges.

Where did you get that great price. Best I could find was $147.90 for 12 Bromine and 3 Mineral in which I don't need the mineral anymore. oh well, they will keep just in case I need them.

[The Pup]

In one of my spas, I use the Spa Frog yellow (Bromine) and blue (Mineral) cartridge float system. I buy in-bulk and on my last purchase I paid approximately $80.00 for 9 Bromine and 3 Mineral cartridges.

Where did you get that great price. Best I could find was $147.90 for 12 Bromine and 3 Mineral in which I don't need the mineral anymore. oh well, they will keep just in case I need them.

I watch eBay for killer deals and I rarely ever buy spa chemicals from my local spa shops (usually costing 4-8 times what I would pay buying in-bulk).

First hit on Google brought up this deal for $104.50: http://cgi.ebay.com/Spa-Frog-Kit-12-pack-9...id=250524856919
With this example...my cost wood be $1.43 higher per month.

Keep looking...you can also find many bulk deals for the separate multi-packs for both the Bromine and Mineral cartridges which can further reduce your costs even more.

Last year, I bought the following Leisure Time products (including the vacuum and net) off of Craigslist for literally pennies on the dollar...dirt cheap!

[Pstores]

I buy most things locally. All of my chems and filters I buy from local store. I like to support them. I know I can get most things much cheaper online. Although I did buy the 15 pack of the cartridges online for a $100.00 cheaper then the quote I got from the store. Wished they would open an online store to increase sales therefore lowering prices. Seems to be competative these days one must run a online store and a real one. About the only way to survive in these markets. Business owners need adjust thier business models and think Global vs Local. Relying on just ocal sales from a store holds down volume and drives your sales percent up therefore pricing yo out of the market. But, I'll still try to buy local even though it costs abit more just for thier support.

[Pstores]

In one of my spas, I use the Spa Frog yellow (Bromine) and blue (Mineral) cartridge float system. I buy in-bulk and on my last purchase I paid approximately $80.00 for 9 Bromine and 3 Mineral cartridges.

Where did you get that great price. Best I could find was $147.90 for 12 Bromine and 3 Mineral in which I don't need the mineral anymore. oh well, they will keep just in case I need them.

WOW look at all the chems. How big is your pool? And tey look like all kinds of different ones. I am tring to just stay with Bromine, Moss, and PH Decreaser.

[Pstores]

Ok review of the first soak. It was really nice compared to putting alot of startup chems in. Water is still crystal clear from last night. Used it for 2 soaking hours. 2 people 1 hour. I'll use it everyday for the next few days. for sure. Also now it holds temp much better. It was loosing temp before even on mild days. Heating elements must have had calcium build up from before. And their clean now. Temp may have dropped a degree. Not the 4 or more than before. So the cleaning did make a drastic improvement. Also it did heat up much faster. should save me some heating dollars this winter when the snow is on the ground.

[The Pup]

I buy most things locally. All of my chems and filters I buy from local store. I like to support them. I know I can get most things much cheaper online. Although I did buy the 15 pack of the cartridges online for a $100.00 cheaper then the quote I got from the store. Wished they would open an online store to increase sales therefore lowering prices. Seems to be competative these days one must run a online store and a real one. About the only way to survive in these markets. Business owners need adjust thier business models and think Global vs Local. Relying on just ocal sales from a store holds down volume and drives your sales percent up therefore pricing yo out of the market. But, I'll still try to buy local even though it costs abit more just for thier support.

My local shop charges $49.99 + tax for a replacement Bromine and Mineral cartridge...I would have to be a very philanthropic patron to pay that amount ($54.86 out the door).

[Pstores]

Ouch...... That's hiigh. Some stores have it figured out and have virtual shopping. The nice part is these days everyone drop ships so no need for excess inventory. Hate to say it though the pressure of the information is really hurting the walkin shopping venues in every business. Some people are forseeing the future and adjusting thier Business model and some are not. Hate to say the ones who don't adapt to the future will not see the future.

So far so good with the Spanaturally. Soaked in the tub once today and just heading for another soak. Water feels very nice. Just hope it stays that way. I did turn up the Spa frog though. to two. I see if that maintians a level around 1 PPM.

[Pstores]

Ok, all is well. Water still feels great and I have had to use only PH decreaser and a tad of Alkalinity Increaser. Water still crystal clear and been soaking 2 hours atleast every day. I'll check back next week again.

[The Pup]

Cool.

I just saw a documentary about mummies found in peat bogs in Northern Europe where a "specialist" described the preservation properties of sphagnum moss via some bacteria eating acid the moss promotes.