Master Spa Insulation

[spalover35]

I recently attended a Master Spa show and generally liked what I saw. The dry testing was very impressive as the seats fit very well. The power of the jets seemed good as evidenced by the put hand over the jet test. However, not being familiar with the manufacturer I came to the internet to do some research. The journey led me here.

One thing that I noticed is that Master Spa seems to be thought of as a middle of the road company and one serious detraction was the poor insulation and expensive energy use. What puzzles me is the salesman specifically mentioned the oustanding insulation properties of the product. He said that only Master Spas uses Icynene insulation and this product does NOT lose any insulation properties. (After reading up on Icynene, it seems this insulation is the new preferred product in Canada, and the most impressive feature is that the R factor in the lab, transfers to the field almost 100%........ i.e. the theoretical R = Real world R).

Well if this is all true, how come people feel the Master Spa is less energy efficient? Since this foam expands 100:1 it surely cannot be due to using so little of it. The Material never loses its r value...so I am confused. I can only guess that maybe the lesser brand Down East is what people are referring to and not the LSX models we were looking at.

Can anyone clarify this for me? I did not buy the hottub and didnt like the pressure of this price is only good until Sunday (end of show). Previously we have owned a Dimension 1 Chairman unit and are generally pleased with it, but after sitting in the LSX stuff, I was much more impressed with Master Spa.

What am I missing?! Thank you.

[nuke]

I also attended a show in portland this weekend. Was suprised that it was just a show on Master Spas only. Also felt like I was dealing with car salesmen. There was way to much pressure to buy and also heard that the prices were inflated so they can make you feel like you are getting a good price. When I started to back out they were willing to take more off. Just does not seem right. I called the local service company in portland on Saturday morning(there is only 1) and there was no answer so could not ask about the warranty work. The one I was looking at was a down east model that is built buy master spas and has the same insulation you were talking about. From what I read on the forums it is still a energy hog. I have decided to go with a Artic Spa.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

While I would never buy a Master due to their quality and lack of insualtion I especially wouldn't buy one from these traveling circus shows as they'll pack up the tent after the weekend and be gone and then you're on your own. Next time ask the sales guy for teh number of who would be there to service teh spas afterward (and call the number LOL) and also ask him to take off one of those panels to show you their "insualtion" and you'll see how little foam is there. Those spas are very poorly insulated no matter what terminology or fairy tale they tell you (BTW, I espcially like you they make you think their foam expands more or holds its R value better as if other brands use foam turns to dust LOL)

[spalover35]

While I would never buy a Master due to their quality and lack of insualtion I especially wouldn't buy one from these traveling circus shows as they'll pack up the tent after the weekend and be gone and then you're on your own. Next time ask the sales guy for teh number of who would be there to service teh spas afterward (and call the number LOL) and also ask him to take off one of those panels to show you their "insualtion" and you'll see how little foam is there. Those spas are very poorly insulated no matter what terminology or fairy tale they tell you (BTW, I espcially like you they make you think their foam expands more or holds its R value better as if other brands use foam turns to dust LOL)

Actually, they were working with a dealer about 40 miles from the location of the show. They carry Master Spas although in the postings I read, one poster did say that the dealer had been taken to court a lot due to the 3 day law where you are allowed to change your mind (if the sale is not made at your principle place of business). I can only assume that the dealer would not refund their money.

As far as insulation goes, the R value thing was put in a paper and published in Canada. I could not dispute the factual nature of Icynene isulation. I think the reason it holds the R factor in the field is it also acts as a total air barrier as well. (also, the 100:1 is factual---it really expands and sets in 8 minutes). That being said, the salesman also said that the insulation everyone else uses (polyurethane) loses over 1/2 its insulating value within the first 2 years. I did not confirm that as it sounded just ridiculous. If I had to place a bet, I would now guess that the reason Master Spa is thought of to be poorly insulated is because they (as you said) use very little of it.

There is one more thing that I cannot stop thinking about. Having looked at many spas over time, I have never seen or felt that a seat was better designed than what I saw in Master Spa's LSX. It was more than the fact it just fit my body. Everything seemed to be placed correctly. A circus tent atmosphere is not my idea of effective marketing, and I have yet to buy anything at one of those shows, but aside from that (and insulation/performance) the shell itself was very impressive. I wonder if there is something out there I would feel the same way about?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I wonder if there is something out there I would feel the same way about?

Go to the websites for Arctic, Artesian, Beachcomber, Caldera, D1, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Marquis, Sundance and I could go on; enter your zip code in their dealer locator feature and see if any of those are in you area. I would buy any of those long before I'd begin to consider a Master spa.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I also attended a show in portland this weekend. Was suprised that it was just a show on Master Spas only. Also felt like I was dealing with car salesmen. There was way to much pressure to buy and also heard that the prices were inflated so they can make you feel like you are getting a good price. When I started to back out they were willing to take more off. Just does not seem right. I called the local service company in portland on Saturday morning(there is only 1) and there was no answer so could not ask about the warranty work. The one I was looking at was a down east model that is built buy master spas and has the same insulation you were talking about. From what I read on the forums it is still a energy hog. I have decided to go with a Artic Spa.

They've got a 1-800 SPA SALE phone number that they advertise with. If you call them to ask what manufactures are there they play dumb like it varies and there are numerous ones and they're not sure who is at your show. Give them a call and ask like you are a customer really looking for basic information so you can look at the spas on-line ahead of time; it’s a hoot to hear someone lie through their teeth, they're pretty convincing.

[medicineman]

Actually, Master Spas looks like a great line of spas to me. Very innovative in their mold design. And EVERY spa manufacturer at one time has used "road shows" to sell their spas. It is very popular.....just go to your nearest state fair and you will see hundreds of spas. The advantage of "road shows" is that you generally will save slightly more than dealing in the showroom as the seller is motivated to turn over units to help pay for the cost of the show (rental of the venue etc). I would certainly not be afraid of buying at a show. After all, Master Spas (the corporation) will be ultimately responsible for your (their) warranty.

Please keep in mind when you read forums (ANY SPA FORUMS) that there are spa saleman (LURKERS) answering most of your questions. "Don't by SPA 'A', they suck. I would buy spa 'B' instead. It is MUCH MUCH better. (Oh ya, I forgot to mention that I work for spa 'B' company.....) You get the point, I'm sure.

BTW, I sell Coast Spas. Not Master Spas.

Oh and to get back to your original question.....the quality of the spa cover has more to do with the cost of heating a spa than what is underneath as 'heat rises'. Most quality brand names these days will be fairly similar in cost to operate.....and fairly economical as well.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I would certainly not be afraid of buying at a show.

Neither wuld I as long as there was a local dealer and as long as it wasn't a Master.

[Dr. Spa]

"heat" does NOT rise...it simple heats

[Roger]

Oh and to get back to your original question.....the quality of the spa cover has more to do with the cost of heating a spa than what is underneath as 'heat rises'. Most quality brand names these days will be fairly similar in cost to operate.....and fairly economical as well.

Heat radiats towards lower temperatures no matter what the direction (up, down, sidways) Hot air rises above cooler air. Less r-factor in a cover versus a side or bottom will create higher heat loss. Less r-factor on a side or bottom will create more heat loss versus a higher r-factor on the top.

[medicineman]

Yes, I agree with the R-Value theory.

Remember, under the spa you have the spa shell layer, fiberglass layer, spray-foam layer, air layer and cabinet layer. All of these have measureable R-Values. As the spray foam layer increases, the R-Value under the spa increases dramatically.

Closed cell polyurethane spray foam under a spa has and R-Value of 6.25 per inch. Spa covers are around R4 per inch. This means that 3 inches of foam under a spa will roughly equate to the R Value of a 5-4" tapered cover. If you add the shell, the fiberglass and the cabinet, you add more R-value.

Now the cover immediately becomes the weak point.

This, coupled with fact that heat DOES rise, makes having a good cover a solid argument.

That being said, I have seen some spas made in the deep South that have no insulation under the cabinet whatsoever. WTF....

[masanori]

I recently attended a Master Spa show and generally liked what I saw. The dry testing was very impressive as the seats fit very well. The power of the jets seemed good as evidenced by the put hand over the jet test. However, not being familiar with the manufacturer I came to the internet to do some research. The journey led me here.

One thing that I noticed is that Master Spa seems to be thought of as a middle of the road company and one serious detraction was the poor insulation and expensive energy use. What puzzles me is the salesman specifically mentioned the oustanding insulation properties of the product. He said that only Master Spas uses Icynene insulation and this product does NOT lose any insulation properties. (After reading up on Icynene, it seems this insulation is the new preferred product in Canada, and the most impressive feature is that the R factor in the lab, transfers to the field almost 100%........ i.e. the theoretical R = Real world R).

Well if this is all true, how come people feel the Master Spa is less energy efficient? Since this foam expands 100:1 it surely cannot be due to using so little of it. The Material never loses its r value...so I am confused. I can only guess that maybe the lesser brand Down East is what people are referring to and not the LSX models we were looking at.

Can anyone clarify this for me? I did not buy the hottub and didnt like the pressure of this price is only good until Sunday (end of show). Previously we have owned a Dimension 1 Chairman unit and are generally pleased with it, but after sitting in the LSX stuff, I was much more impressed with Master Spa.

What am I missing?! Thank you.

[masanori]

I recently attended a Master Spa show and generally liked what I saw. The dry testing was very impressive as the seats fit very well. The power of the jets seemed good as evidenced by the put hand over the jet test. However, not being familiar with the manufacturer I came to the internet to do some research. The journey led me here.

One thing that I noticed is that Master Spa seems to be thought of as a middle of the road company and one serious detraction was the poor insulation and expensive energy use. What puzzles me is the salesman specifically mentioned the oustanding insulation properties of the product. He said that only Master Spas uses Icynene insulation and this product does NOT lose any insulation properties. (After reading up on Icynene, it seems this insulation is the new preferred product in Canada, and the most impressive feature is that the R factor in the lab, transfers to the field almost 100%........ i.e. the theoretical R = Real world R).

Well if this is all true, how come people feel the Master Spa is less energy efficient? Since this foam expands 100:1 it surely cannot be due to using so little of it. The Material never loses its r value...so I am confused. I can only guess that maybe the lesser brand Down East is what people are referring to and not the LSX models we were looking at.

Can anyone clarify this for me? I did not buy the hottub and didnt like the pressure of this price is only good until Sunday (end of show). Previously we have owned a Dimension 1 Chairman unit and are generally pleased with it, but after sitting in the LSX stuff, I was much more impressed with Master Spa.

What am I missing?! Thank you.

What you are missing is that its called k factor not R factor. The R value is derived from the K factor. The R value determines the insulation value. The higher the R value, the better the insulation. Typically, a 2 lb per cubic foot foam will give you the best R value, about 7.5 per inch. With any foam, including Icynene foam, the R value will depend on the substrate. The urethane foam produced inthe US is far superior that the Icynene product produced in Canada.

[Dr. Spa]

This, coupled with fact that heat DOES rise, makes having a good cover a solid argument.

Heat, does NOT rise. Heated air does. This is a part of convection. However, once it hits a solid surface, convection no longer is an issue and the heat is then transferred through conduction. Conduction will occur up, down or sideways, through a solid surface, rather equally.

FYI, the R value of spa covers foam per inch of thickness is as follows;

Foam Density -- R-Value/in.

1.0 -- 3.85

1.25 -- 4.0

1.5 -- 4.17

2.0 -- 4.35

[footie]

This, coupled with fact that heat DOES rise, makes having a good cover a solid argument.

Heat, does NOT rise. Heated air does. This is a part of convection. However, once it hits a solid surface, convection no longer is an issue and the heat is then transferred through conduction. Conduction will occur up, down or sideways, through a solid surface, rather equally.

FYI, the R value of spa covers foam per inch of thickness is as follows;

Foam Density -- R-Value/in.

1.0 -- 3.85

1.25 -- 4.0

1.5 -- 4.17

2.0 -- 4.35

I can't comment on what types of insulation are best but I do know that more is always better. Regarding the heat rising argument, where is all the heat in a hot tub.........the water of course so after the sides and base have been properly insulated (depends of company according to you guys) the least direction of resistance is up, so a well insulated cover is a most if you want to reduce costs. Another thing, how well are the bases insulated in hot tubs, by my reckoning direct contact with a colder surface is the quickest way to lose heat, not through air so the base is the most important part.

Any thoughts.

[masanori]

This, coupled with fact that heat DOES rise, makes having a good cover a solid argument.

Heat, does NOT rise. Heated air does. This is a part of convection. However, once it hits a solid surface, convection no longer is an issue and the heat is then transferred through conduction. Conduction will occur up, down or sideways, through a solid surface, rather equally.

FYI, the R value of spa covers foam per inch of thickness is as follows;

Foam Density -- R-Value/in.

1.0 -- 3.85

1.25 -- 4.0

1.5 -- 4.17

2.0 -- 4.35

Please note the foam inside the cover is not the same foam under the tub.

I can't comment on what types of insulation are best but I do know that more is always better. Regarding the heat rising argument, where is all the heat in a hot tub.........the water of course so after the sides and base have been properly insulated (depends of company according to you guys) the least direction of resistance is up, so a well insulated cover is a most if you want to reduce costs. Another thing, how well are the bases insulated in hot tubs, by my reckoning direct contact with a colder surface is the quickest way to lose heat, not through air so the base is the most important part.

Any thoughts.

[tonyjbt]

Good comment: I am getting so sick of reading how poorly insulated the Master Spas are. You don't have to even be that smart to realize that the spa cover is the most important aspect of heat retention. I've had my Master Spar for over 1 year now and it runs perfectly and my monthy heating bills are well within the range that my dealer told me it would be.

Actually, Master Spas looks like a great line of spas to me. Very innovative in their mold design. And EVERY spa manufacturer at one time has used "road shows" to sell their spas. It is very popular.....just go to your nearest state fair and you will see hundreds of spas. The advantage of "road shows" is that you generally will save slightly more than dealing in the showroom as the seller is motivated to turn over units to help pay for the cost of the show (rental of the venue etc). I would certainly not be afraid of buying at a show. After all, Master Spas (the corporation) will be ultimately responsible for your (their) warranty.

Please keep in mind when you read forums (ANY SPA FORUMS) that there are spa saleman (LURKERS) answering most of your questions. "Don't by SPA 'A', they suck. I would buy spa 'B' instead. It is MUCH MUCH better. (Oh ya, I forgot to mention that I work for spa 'B' company.....) You get the point, I'm sure.

BTW, I sell Coast Spas. Not Master Spas.

Oh and to get back to your original question.....the quality of the spa cover has more to do with the cost of heating a spa than what is underneath as 'heat rises'. Most quality brand names these days will be fairly similar in cost to operate.....and fairly economical as well.

[tonyjbt]

Good comment: I am getting so sick of reading how poorly insulated the Master Spas are. You don't have to even be that smart to realize that the spa cover is the most important aspect of heat retention. I've had my Master Spar for over 1 year now and it runs perfectly and my monthy heating bills are well within the range that my dealer told me it would be.

Actually, Master Spas looks like a great line of spas to me. Very innovative in their mold design. And EVERY spa manufacturer at one time has used "road shows" to sell their spas. It is very popular.....just go to your nearest state fair and you will see hundreds of spas. The advantage of "road shows" is that you generally will save slightly more than dealing in the showroom as the seller is motivated to turn over units to help pay for the cost of the show (rental of the venue etc). I would certainly not be afraid of buying at a show. After all, Master Spas (the corporation) will be ultimately responsible for your (their) warranty.

Please keep in mind when you read forums (ANY SPA FORUMS) that there are spa saleman (LURKERS) answering most of your questions. "Don't by SPA 'A', they suck. I would buy spa 'B' instead. It is MUCH MUCH better. (Oh ya, I forgot to mention that I work for spa 'B' company.....) You get the point, I'm sure.

BTW, I sell Coast Spas. Not Master Spas.

Oh and to get back to your original question.....the quality of the spa cover has more to do with the cost of heating a spa than what is underneath as 'heat rises'. Most quality brand names these days will be fairly similar in cost to operate.....and fairly economical as well.

[tonyjbt]

Good comment: I am getting so sick of reading how poorly insulated the Master Spas are. You don't have to even be that smart to realize that the spa cover is the most important aspect of heat retention. I've had my Master Spar for over 1 year now and it runs perfectly and my monthy heating bills are well within the range that my dealer told me it would be.

Actually, Master Spas looks like a great line of spas to me. Very innovative in their mold design. And EVERY spa manufacturer at one time has used "road shows" to sell their spas. It is very popular.....just go to your nearest state fair and you will see hundreds of spas. The advantage of "road shows" is that you generally will save slightly more than dealing in the showroom as the seller is motivated to turn over units to help pay for the cost of the show (rental of the venue etc). I would certainly not be afraid of buying at a show. After all, Master Spas (the corporation) will be ultimately responsible for your (their) warranty.

Please keep in mind when you read forums (ANY SPA FORUMS) that there are spa saleman (LURKERS) answering most of your questions. "Don't by SPA 'A', they suck. I would buy spa 'B' instead. It is MUCH MUCH better. (Oh ya, I forgot to mention that I work for spa 'B' company.....) You get the point, I'm sure.

BTW, I sell Coast Spas. Not Master Spas.

Oh and to get back to your original question.....the quality of the spa cover has more to do with the cost of heating a spa than what is underneath as 'heat rises'. Most quality brand names these days will be fairly similar in cost to operate.....and fairly economical as well.

[Roger]

If your Master spa deal told you your monthly heating costs should be within 50-100 bucks a month your good with that?

[tonyjbt]

If your Master spa deal told you your monthly heating costs should be within 50-100 bucks a month your good with that?

Maybe your monthly bills are that high but my bills has never exceeded $4o.

Avg. $20-40.

[arnspa]

Wait Please! WHAT are we talking about here? There are MasterSpas that hold 200 gallons, there are MasterSpas that hold 2,500 gallons.

ALSO, where do you live?

People who want to damn ALL MasterSpas anywhere very much invite the question "WHAT company do you represent?"

We have a H2X Crosstrainer2, 1300 gallons in Menlo Park, CA 94025. Yes, we bought it at the county fairgrounds two years ago. Yes, these guys reminded me of bible salesmen. But YES, we got a good deal, and have not had a minute's complaint about the swimspa. (This thing can host a dozen people)

Elsewhere here I've detailed how we've installed an industrial timer to turn off the spa for 11 hours a day (we are on a time of use electric billing system). At most the spa loses one degree when it's off for 11 hours. If we go away and turn it off for a week it goes from 100 to 92.

I can't fault the insulation one bit. And I think the cover is great. (Still, being an eco-nut*, I'm wondering if I can add some insulation all the same.)

WHATEVER complaint 'whosdat' has about MasterSpas, he doesn't know our situation. OF COURSE, I can't guarantee that Alaskans would have the same experience.

*"eco-nut" could be someone who has 30R in the attic where the temp bottoms at 28 dF winters, 90 dF summers, and has over 50 rainbarrels** and a 5 kW solar system***?

**Yes, we fill the tub twice yearly from the rain barrels, the rest is for the fruit trees.

*** Our electric bill this year was zero.

For the cover: I recently applied 303 AV stuff to clean and renew the vinyl. I am much impressed.

AGAIN: You want to talk electric bill, you want to talk insulation? PLEASE tell us how many gallons you are talking, tell us where you live, tell us what electric you are paying. Prime time on our billing is 29 cents kWh, 8 cents at night. My father-in-law on the TVA pays only 4 cents. What cost him $20 could cost me $145.

BTW: BIG is big. When we first got our spa our electric usage doubled, and our bill tripled. And so we got the solar panels and the timer. Now we pay zero.

You can't hold 1300 gallons at 100 dF and pay $20 a month. But insulation is not THE problem or solution for that.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

**Post removed, issue resolved.**

[Roger]

BTW: BIG is big. When we first got our spa our electric usage doubled, and our bill tripled. And so we got the solar panels and the timer. Now we pay zero.

You can't hold 1300 gallons at 100 dF and pay $20 a month. But insulation is not THE problem or solution for that.

So your 1300 gallon Master Spa made your electric bill triple huh? I'm not suprised. That's what happens around here also. I am in Northern Minnesota and a lot smaller tub than that from Master will do that.

[arnspa]

BTW: BIG is big. When we first got our spa our electric usage doubled, and our bill tripled. And so we got the solar panels and the timer. Now we pay zero.

You can't hold 1300 gallons at 100 dF and pay $20 a month. But insulation is not THE problem or solution for that.

So your 1300 gallon Master Spa made your electric bill triple huh? I'm not suprised. That's what happens around here also. I am in Northern Minnesota and a lot smaller tub than that from Master will do that.

SO, Roger, what company do you represent? As suggested earlier in this thread, it's difficult to assess how valid are off-the-wall claims about this brand or that brand, especially by people who look like they may be in the business.

Have there been any independent studies of electric usage by different spa brands? If YES, please cite them for us. If NO, your statements about MasterSpas look like propaganda?

What are the cheaper to operate spas, and where's the data?

[ADDED: On re-reading Roger's post, it seems he may have only been speaking of a tub the size of mine, and not of the brand. My apology if I misread his comment!]