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Where Does The Water Go?


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#1 Market Top

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 01:50 PM

Hello to all.
I live in Pennsylvania and have my vinyl in ground pool professionally closed in the winter. I also have an automatic solar safety cover (which is fantastic when it works). For winter closing, my service tech has me fill the poll completely following the winterization and close the cover. So far so good. But half way through the winter water/ice builds up on the top of the cover. The problem is that the water in the pool drops by at least two feet, which stretches the cover and puts a lot of pressure on it. Perhaps I need a new service tech, but no one is able to tell me where the water in the pool goes...and what I can do to prevent it.
As you can tell, I'm a new pool owner, so any help would be appreciated.
Also, I did spend some time on the site searching for this type of issue but couldn't find exactly the answer.
Again, any help would be appreciated.
Thank you.

#2 ps558

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 04:00 PM

QUOTE (Market Top @ Feb 14 2009, 04:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello to all.
I live in Pennsylvania and have my vinyl in ground pool professionally closed in the winter. I also have an automatic solar safety cover (which is fantastic when it works). For winter closing, my service tech has me fill the poll completely following the winterization and close the cover. So far so good. But half way through the winter water/ice builds up on the top of the cover. The problem is that the water in the pool drops by at least two feet, which stretches the cover and puts a lot of pressure on it. Perhaps I need a new service tech, but no one is able to tell me where the water in the pool goes...and what I can do to prevent it.
As you can tell, I'm a new pool owner, so any help would be appreciated.
Also, I did spend some time on the site searching for this type of issue but couldn't find exactly the answer.
Again, any help would be appreciated.
Thank you.


I the pool is really full, like above normal operating level as rain, snow pile up on top of the cover it pushed the cover down in the pool which will displace the water in the pool. Since this happens over time the water comes out over the top but slow enough that you don't relize it. Best thing to do is keep pumping the water off the top of the cover and leave the pool water at normal operating level or just a little lower

#3 Pool Guru

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 06:14 PM

I have a few questions.

1. Is the pool a vinyl liner or gunite?
2. Do you have and use a cover pump during the winter?
3. Do you ever notice water loss during summer?
4. How long is it taking for the water to drop during the winter?

Thanks,

John

#4 Market Top

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 04:14 AM

thanks for the fast replys. First, by full I mean "normal" level during the summer, or 1/2 to 3/4 to the top of the skimmer. I'm 100% certain the water is not running over the top (it would freeze on the deck). Second, I know about the liner - definately vinyl though not certain as to the actual foundation construction (cement?). Third, yes I have a cover pump and use it during the winter - the problem is that when the air temp goes below freezing, the water in the drain hose freezes - which stops the pump - so I always have some water/ice on top of the cover. It has to stay like that until the weather gets warm.....which means it snows/melts/snow/melt and even more water/ice build up. Over the past week the outside temp got sustainably over freezing and the ice melted, so I was able to drain the water off the cover and add water to the pool. Fourth, I do lose water during the summer, but no where near like this, I think it may be "normal" loss associated with evaporation or when I backflush. Lastly, the water loss takes a few months to reach this level. It sure seems like the weight of the water on top of the cover is the key - the more water the faster the water level declines. I could totally understand if the water on top of the cover was pushing down on the pool and water would run out of the pool onto the ground....but I'm sure that is not the issue (I watch it pretty closely as I'm totally paranoid about this issue).
Again, thanks to both of you guys for the response.
Thanks
Chris


#5 Pool Clown

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 11:15 PM

When you get the water/ice on the cover and it pushes the water in the pool up, could it be leaking out thru the joint between the liner and the decking/ coping?

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and Paramount pool cleaning systems.


#6 Market Top

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 10:26 AM

QUOTE (Pool Clown @ Feb 16 2009, 02:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When you get the water/ice on the cover and it pushes the water in the pool up, could it be leaking out thru the joint between the liner and the decking/ coping?


Sorry, my mistake. I mis-spoke on "deck". Its really a cement walk/patio around the pool and not a wooden deck. Thats why I'm pretty sure the water is not running over the top - it would be easy to see and it would likely freeze along with the remaining water on top of the cover.

Thanks for the reply....sounds like this is indeed a mystery!

#7 Pool Clown

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 06:02 PM

With the scenario I'm referring to, would not spill water on the deck (concrete or otherwise) but flow under, You must have some kind of joint where the liner ends and the deck begins, Yes? You wouldn't be able to see the loss. Or does the liner come up all the way and drapes over the deck?

I dunno, just thinking...

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Jandy, Pentair, Sta-Rite, Raypak, Polaris,
and Paramount pool cleaning systems.


#8 Market Top

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 03:29 AM

QUOTE (Pool Clown @ Feb 16 2009, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
With the scenario I'm referring to, would not spill water on the deck (concrete or otherwise) but flow under, You must have some kind of joint where the liner ends and the deck begins, Yes? You wouldn't be able to see the loss. Or does the liner come up all the way and drapes over the deck?

I dunno, just thinking...


Well, the cover track is there. And the space where the cover rests while its in the back/swimming position. Maybe it goes there. Certainly a possibility. I'll check it out - thanks for your help.

#9 Pathfinder

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 05:53 AM

Do you have stairs in your pool? I have seen in the in winter time water seeping through the screw holes around the stair trim. This happens when the trim and the gasket shrinks bc of the cold temps when the screws are not tightened properly in the beginning or the gasket is so old that there is no more elasticity for expanding and contracting.
Canadian Vinyl Liner Installer Extraordinaire

#10 Market Top

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 05:21 PM

The stairs really got me to thinking....but got home and looked at the ladder. It never crosses the water line. All connections are on the top so as to not interfere with the covers operation.
Thanks for a good guess....this is proving more challenging than I would have guessed.

#11 Pool Clown

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 08:21 PM

QUOTE (Market Top @ Feb 17 2009, 03:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Pool Clown @ Feb 16 2009, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
With the scenario I'm referring to, would not spill water on the deck (concrete or otherwise) but flow under, You must have some kind of joint where the liner ends and the deck begins, Yes? You wouldn't be able to see the loss. Or does the liner come up all the way and drapes over the deck?

I dunno, just thinking...


Well, the cover track is there. And the space where the cover rests while its in the back/swimming position. Maybe it goes there. Certainly a possibility. I'll check it out - thanks for your help.


Is the space where the cover rests while its in the back/swimming position kinda sunken in the ground? If so, that may be where your water is going. That box should have a drain in it to keep it from flooding the motor for the cover. You wouldn't see water in there if it was always draining out.

Good luck

Factory Warranty/Service for:
Jandy, Pentair, Sta-Rite, Raypak, Polaris,
and Paramount pool cleaning systems.


#12 Market Top

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 04:19 PM

There IS that space that is a bit sunken. I have to believe that has a drain. I'll check it this weekend (its not easy to get to).
Bet there is an 80% change thats the answer. So if there is a drain, I wonder where the water leaves my property???? I think I'll leave that little mystery for another day!
Thanks again for your time.

#13 jeff grotte

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:41 PM

QUOTE (Market Top @ Feb 18 2009, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There IS that space that is a bit sunken. I have to believe that has a drain. I'll check it this weekend (its not easy to get to).
Bet there is an 80% change thats the answer. So if there is a drain, I wonder where the water leaves my property???? I think I'll leave that little mystery for another day!
Thanks again for your time.

you most likley have a leak in the liner. were you adding any water over the summer. more than the year before.

#14 Market Top

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 06:49 PM

QUOTE (jeff grotte @ Feb 23 2009, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Market Top @ Feb 18 2009, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There IS that space that is a bit sunken. I have to believe that has a drain. I'll check it this weekend (its not easy to get to).
Bet there is an 80% change thats the answer. So if there is a drain, I wonder where the water leaves my property???? I think I'll leave that little mystery for another day!
Thanks again for your time.

you most likley have a leak in the liner. were you adding any water over the summer. more than the year before.


I don't really have a problem in the summer. I do have to add water, but not a lot. Seems like the only time I have this major of a problem is when water builds up on the cover. I can prevent that in the summer, but less so in the winter. Again, the pump works in the winter...but the hose freezes, so I can't keep the pump on the cover to drain it in the winter. If I have a leak in the liner (here comes the dumb question again), where does the water go? Would it just be slowly draining under the foundation of the pool? Seems like its losing enough water than I could follow the path. Maybe I'm just over my head with this thing. Thank you for your help on this.

#15 jeff grotte

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 07:26 PM

QUOTE (Market Top @ Feb 26 2009, 08:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jeff grotte @ Feb 23 2009, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Market Top @ Feb 18 2009, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There IS that space that is a bit sunken. I have to believe that has a drain. I'll check it this weekend (its not easy to get to).
Bet there is an 80% change thats the answer. So if there is a drain, I wonder where the water leaves my property???? I think I'll leave that little mystery for another day!
Thanks again for your time.

you most likley have a leak in the liner. were you adding any water over the summer. more than the year before.


I don't really have a problem in the summer. I do have to add water, but not a lot. Seems like the only time I have this major of a problem is when water builds up on the cover. I can prevent that in the summer, but less so in the winter. Again, the pump works in the winter...but the hose freezes, so I can't keep the pump on the cover to drain it in the winter. If I have a leak in the liner (here comes the dumb question again), where does the water go? Would it just be slowly draining under the foundation of the pool? Seems like its losing enough water than I could follow the path. Maybe I'm just over my head with this thing. Thank you for your help on this.

the problem with using the autocovers as winter covers is what you may be seeing. the water on top of the cover is pushing the water under the cover out of the pool. skimmers are not sealed above the water line. they just use spacers to bring the lid to deck level.

auto covers must be supported by water underneath them. I always sold a mesh spring type cover for winter use. that way the winter cover took all the abuse and the pool was safe as the water went through the mesh cover. in minnesota we had a couple of kids drown on top of a solid winter cover that had water on it in the spring.

the water that leaks out of pools just drains into the ground. if you have sandy soil it just goes down. if it is clay with snad layers it will travel down the layers into the deep ground.

the big danger with water leaking under swimming pools is that the water can settle the deck area. or float the liner if the water table is to high.


Try pumping the water from on top of the cover under the cover if that solves the water level going down the the advise you first got were correct. the water ontop is pushing the pool water out.

my best advise is to get a mesh cover next year, they have some with very tight weaves to keep the pool clean and still let water through..

another benefit with a mesh cover is that solid autocovers will get damaged if you ever did have a leak in the pool over the winter. mesh covers will just need some straps sewed back on. i even had a friends autocover track ripped out of the concrete deck when the pool leaked out of the pool over the winter.

the entire pool deck on the two long sides had to be replaced. and a new cover put in. the friend bought a mesh cover the next fall from me.

Jeff




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