Jump to content


(April 12, 2014) POOLSPAFORUM.COM SITE UPGRADE!


Photo
- - - - -

My First Power Bill After Hot Tub!


  • Please log in to reply
89 replies to this topic

#1 mike p

mike p

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

Posted 22 December 2007 - 07:19 AM

So I Have anxiously been waiting for my first power bill to come. I got my hot tub in early November right when my billing cylce began and I just got the bill for 1 full month of Electricity since owning my Hot Tub.
My Last three electric Bills were as follows:
September: $236 (AC was cranked)
October: $137
November: $95

Then December came and it was $177!!!!
That's a pretty big difference... I keep it on economy mode (101) and turn on to STD just about every night to I can soak for 20-30 minutes or so then it goes back to economy. I did have Christmas Lights on but that could only have been maybe $5-$10.
Any help???
I love my Hot Tub! 102 baby!

#2 dave nh

dave nh

    Spa Savant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 134 posts

Posted 22 December 2007 - 07:32 AM

The blower to run gas heat (if it is forced), uses alot of electricity especially if it is cycling on and off. If you can pull out your electric bill from a year ago it is the best way to compare and find an average kwh change. I have figured my tub is approx. between 13kw-15kw a day to run. Our electricity is expensive here in the northeast, so i guess it depends on your local rates. unfortuantely, there is a price to pay for the enjoyment of the spa, but i would not be without it. smile.gif

#3 mike p

mike p

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

Posted 22 December 2007 - 07:37 AM

QUOTE(dave nh @ Dec 22 2007, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The blower to run gas heat (if it is forced), uses alot of electricity especially if it is cycling on and off. If you can pull out your electric bill from a year ago it is the best way to compare and find an average kwh change. I have figured my tub is approx. between 13kw-15kw a day to run. Our electricity is expensive here in the northeast, so i guess it depends on your local rates. unfortuantely, there is a price to pay for the enjoyment of the spa, but i would not be without it. smile.gif


Well I did just move here about 11 months ago so don't have a comparison. But in SC in a similar sized house my power bill for November-December was 79.
Should I keep it on STD mode?
I love my Hot Tub! 102 baby!

#4 dave nh

dave nh

    Spa Savant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 134 posts

Posted 22 December 2007 - 07:58 AM

QUOTE
Well I did just move here about 11 months ago so don't have a comparison. But in SC in a similar sized house my power bill for November-December was 79.
Should I keep it on STD mode?


It all comes down to the rates in your local area, your rates could likely be higher. I am not familiar with the standard/economy mode. Mine has a circulation pump that runs 24/7. It does not turn on the main pumps very often. I would say that if economy mode uses your main pumps less, you would save electricity. Just make sure your tub water is staying ok. Otherwise you will probably spend more in chemicals than electricty trying to rebalance.

#5 Chas

Chas

    Nice guy. Really.

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,334 posts

Posted 22 December 2007 - 09:05 AM

I have sold these things for 21 years, and the first month is always the highest. You are home more, you have a tendancy to open the cover more often than just getting in the spa, you use more jets and more blower as you experiment with the different settings, and you tend to jack the temp up and down a bit.

Also, being home more, longer nights, Christmas lights, all these changes add up.

But relax, if you bought a well-insulated tub the part of the bill that it contributes should drop.

Oops - see below....

cool.gif
Poolspaforum.com Moderator
Award Winning HotSpring Dealer

#6 spatech (the unreal one)

spatech (the unreal one)

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,818 posts

Posted 22 December 2007 - 11:39 AM

Mike,
You don't say what kind of spa but due to the issue I'm guessing its a basic thermopane. I wouldn't wait for another bill. I would suggest you take one of the sides off and I think you're going to see that there is some definite opportunity to improve the issue by adding insulation in the corners and sides so you can reduce some of that air transfer.

QUOTE(mike p @ Dec 22 2007, 07:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So I Have anxiously been waiting for my first power bill to come. I got my hot tub in early November right when my billing cylce began and I just got the bill for 1 full month of Electricity since owning my Hot Tub.
My Last three electric Bills were as follows:
September: $236 (AC was cranked)
October: $137
November: $95

Then December came and it was $177!!!!
That's a pretty big difference... I keep it on economy mode (101) and turn on to STD just about every night to I can soak for 20-30 minutes or so then it goes back to economy. I did have Christmas Lights on but that could only have been maybe $5-$10.
Any help???


#7 birdman

birdman

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 22 December 2007 - 03:06 PM

Mike - I live in northern KY and my gas & electric bill jumped a similar amount as yours. We've has some nights get down to 20 or so this billing period, I would guess your temps have been a little milder, but definately considerlably cooler than prior month. I also drained & refilled earlier this month so I figured my electric would be increased a little more due to reheating - I think it took around 7 hours to bring tub up to the 102 set point (375 gallons). Anyway, compared to this same period last year I used 11.5 KWH more per day. So for 30 days that would be an increase of 345 KWH to run my tub. At 6.3 cents per KWH that's $21.74 for tub usage - not bad considering I did a refill.

#8 birdman

birdman

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 22 December 2007 - 03:13 PM

I didn't mention it, but I didn't have a hot tub last year so the comparison in electical usage to last year should be pretty good. Also it's been 3 degrees cooler this billing period compared to last years, so furnace fan would have run more this year.

#9 waterboy

waterboy

    Spa Savant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 143 posts

Posted 22 December 2007 - 04:43 PM

What type of spa is it? How many pumps and what is the actual power of the pumps? Are the pumps 1 or 2 speed? How many amps are required to run it or what size breaker is required? We are just about to purchase a spa and are also interested in the power usage.

#10 mike p

mike p

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

Posted 22 December 2007 - 09:05 PM

QUOTE(waterboy @ Dec 22 2007, 06:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What type of spa is it? How many pumps and what is the actual power of the pumps? Are the pumps 1 or 2 speed? How many amps are required to run it or what size breaker is required? We are just about to purchase a spa and are also interested in the power usage.


Its a costco Tub made by Keys Backyard its the Discover Ecstasy 6 person tub.
It has 1 pump speed and the pump I think is about 5 or 6 HP. I have a 50 amp breaker which i think is pretty standard.
It is a pretty empty shell inside the cabinents so I think I will insulate sometime this month.
I love my Hot Tub! 102 baby!

#11 Chas

Chas

    Nice guy. Really.

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,334 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 04:48 AM

A 6 HP pump would require over twenty amps at normal load. That is about 4500 watts at 220 volts - compare it to three 1500 watt room heaters running full blast or 75 light bulbs of 60 watts each.

If things are not designed well, or if a dirty filter puts more load on it, or if you can shuttle a divert valve to flow through a single large jet - in other words as the load on the motor goes up - the amps will spike.

That will draw a lot of amps - and that equals a lot of money. The good news in this regard is that there isn't a 6 HP pump available in the pool and spa industry, so you may not really have the size you were told - or the size it is even marked.

Also - I'm sorry to say that brand of tub is not well insulated, so I would agree with your statement above that you might want to investigate supplimenting the insulation.

cool.gif
Poolspaforum.com Moderator
Award Winning HotSpring Dealer

#12 spatech (the unreal one)

spatech (the unreal one)

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,818 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 11:47 AM

QUOTE(mike p @ Dec 22 2007, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Its a costco Tub made by Keys Backyard its the Discover Ecstasy 6 person tub.
It has 1 pump speed and the pump I think is about 5 or 6 HP. I have a 50 amp breaker which i think is pretty standard.
It is a pretty empty shell inside the cabinents so I think I will insulate sometime this month.


That is not really a 5 HP pump. That's the Brake HP. In terms of real HP (not the deceptive bhp rating they give to make you think you're getting more than you are) that is about a 2.5 HP pump, or so.

#13 soakerman

soakerman

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 594 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 01:02 PM

QUOTE(spatech (the unreal one) @ Dec 23 2007, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(mike p @ Dec 22 2007, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Its a costco Tub made by Keys Backyard its the Discover Ecstasy 6 person tub.
It has 1 pump speed and the pump I think is about 5 or 6 HP. I have a 50 amp breaker which i think is pretty standard.
It is a pretty empty shell inside the cabinents so I think I will insulate sometime this month.


That is not really a 5 HP pump. That's the Brake HP. In terms of real HP (not the deceptive bhp rating they give to make you think you're getting more than you are) that is about a 2.5 HP pump, or so.



Why don't you share with us the spec sheet if your so sure of your statement! We know that these spas are alot less expensive alternative to a dealer spa thus giving consumers a better option price wise then a dealer inflated spa of simmilar quality. With that said, it is a 5 H.P. pump and that is a fact. The same fact the same spa at a dealer would cost two thousand dollars more for a like spa is a fact! Otherwise these spas would not be sold through Costco if the dealer spas where priced the same for simmilar spas with simmilar options.

soakerman

#14 spatech (the unreal one)

spatech (the unreal one)

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,818 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 02:50 PM

QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why don't you share with us the spec sheet if your so sure of your statement! We know that these spas are alot less expensive alternative to a dealer spa thus giving consumers a better option price wise then a dealer inflated spa of simmilar quality. With that said, it is a 5 H.P. pump and that is a fact. The same fact the same spa at a dealer would cost two thousand dollars more for a like spa is a fact! Otherwise these spas would not be sold through Costco if the dealer spas where priced the same for simmilar spas with simmilar options.


I am 100.0% sure that is the Brake HP, not continuous HP (aka "real" HP). Its really somewhere between 2.5 and 3.0 in "real" HP but if you want to call it a "5.0" pump just refer to it as 5.0 BHP so its at least truthful. Its a shame to ever list it as HP when the number is BHP. BTW, I think its a 6.0 BHP pump not 5.0 BHP.

I'm sorry that you don't like it but it is true. Most all the Costco spas use the deceptive BHP rating. I just looked on their site and they have one that says it has "2-6.0 HP GE pumps". LOL, you'd probably need 80A if that was their real HP but it isn't, that's BHP. Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger revealing reality. Many people have been fooled by that so don't get upset with yourself if all along you thought you had a true 5.0 HP pump.

Mike,
Back to your original issue. Your issue with energy use it tied to the fact that those spas are poorly insulated. Take off one of the sides and you'll see for yourself as have many owners who've come here after their purchase with that type spa and that exact issue. Then go to Lowes or Home Depot and see what they have to offer. You want to properly insulate the side and corners in general plus where they meet the shell. If you can eliminate the air flow issue you'll keep more heat in and should see an improvement.

#15 soakerman

soakerman

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 594 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 02:55 PM

QUOTE(spatech (the unreal one) @ Dec 23 2007, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why don't you share with us the spec sheet if your so sure of your statement! We know that these spas are alot less expensive alternative to a dealer spa thus giving consumers a better option price wise then a dealer inflated spa of simmilar quality. With that said, it is a 5 H.P. pump and that is a fact. The same fact the same spa at a dealer would cost two thousand dollars more for a like spa is a fact! Otherwise these spas would not be sold through Costco if the dealer spas where priced the same for simmilar spas with simmilar options.


I am 100.0% sure that is the Brake HP, not continuous HP (aka "real" HP). Its really somewhere between 2.5 and 3.0 in "real" HP but if you want to call it a "5.0" pump just refer to it as 5.0 BHP so its at least truthful. Its a shame to ever list it as HP when the number is BHP. BTW, I think its a 6.0 BHP pump not 5.0 BHP.

I'm sorry that you don't like it but it is true. Most all the Costco spas use the deceptive BHP rating. I just looked on their site and they have one that says it has "2-6.0 HP GE pumps". LOL, you'd probably need 80A if that was their real HP but it isn't, that's BHP. Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger revealing reality. Many people have been fooled by that so don't get upset with yourself if all along you thought you had a true 5.0 HP pump.

Mike,
Back to your original issue. Your issue with energy use it tied to the fact that those spas are poorly insulated. Take off one of the sides and you'll see for yourself as have many owners who've come here after their purchase with that type spa and that exact issue. Then go to Lowes or Home Depot and see what they have to offer. You want to properly insulate the side and corners in general plus where they meet the shell. If you can eliminate the air flow issue you'll keep more heat in and should see an improvement.


What does all that mean to the end user? Nothing! just another way to bash a good value spa is all. People couldn't tell what horsepower is in most spas except on a spec sheet.

soakerman

#16 spatech (the unreal one)

spatech (the unreal one)

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,818 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 04:11 PM

QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What does all that mean to the end user? Nothing! just another way to bash a good value spa is all.


The spa owner was noting high energy costs. He later stated he had a 5hp pump which would seem high for a spa and may lead him to believe that was part of his increased energy bill. I was letting him know he had a typically sized pump so that was not part of the issue but rather it was because his spa was just not insulated as many owners of that brand have come here to get help on.

In other words I was responding to a point he made in his post. You decided to chime in and for some reason arbitrarily stated I was wrong simply because you weren't happy with the truth.

QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
People couldn't tell what horsepower is in most spas except on a spec sheet.


...and in the case of his spa (and yours possibly) the spec sheet he reads is what is causing the confusion because it is designed to confuse you into thinking you got more than you really did.

#17 thestallion

thestallion

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 04:20 PM

QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(spatech (the unreal one) @ Dec 23 2007, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(mike p @ Dec 22 2007, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Its a costco Tub made by Keys Backyard its the Discover Ecstasy 6 person tub.
It has 1 pump speed and the pump I think is about 5 or 6 HP. I have a 50 amp breaker which i think is pretty standard.
It is a pretty empty shell inside the cabinents so I think I will insulate sometime this month.


That is not really a 5 HP pump. That's the Brake HP. In terms of real HP (not the deceptive bhp rating they give to make you think you're getting more than you are) that is about a 2.5 HP pump, or so.



Why don't you share with us the spec sheet if your so sure of your statement! We know that these spas are alot less expensive alternative to a dealer spa thus giving consumers a better option price wise then a dealer inflated spa of simmilar quality. With that said, it is a 5 H.P. pump and that is a fact. The same fact the same spa at a dealer would cost two thousand dollars more for a like spa is a fact! Otherwise these spas would not be sold through Costco if the dealer spas where priced the same for simmilar spas with simmilar options.



soakerman,

Why such a apologist for Costco ? You make some bold statements about what a dealer would charge for a similar spa, other than your rhetoric do you have anything to prove these cliams. We as dealers can certainly offer spas of similar quality for a similar price. The reason many of choose not to, is that the product is not something we want to live with on a daily basis knowing the long term and short term problems these spas bring. Over this summer we did some off site events and I wanted to really offer some "deals". I sold 44 jet spas with 2 *5* hp pumps water fall, stereo, lift, steps, led lighting and unlike Costco delivery to your backyard with chems $4995.00. I stopped selling them and not because they did not sell, they sold well. But no matter what you want to believe or what I hoped for they ARE NOT the equal of A Sundance, a Hot Springs, A Marquis, A Jacuzzi. etc. Some people live life with blinders on and want to think you can buy a car like a Hyundai and it is the same as the Lexus because a commercial says so, no matter what the ad says or they hope for it is not the same. There is no way that products of equal value can be produced for thousands less. The market economy of the world does not allow for it. some products are good values and may hold enough value for a person to choose the lower priced but there will be compromises in the process.

#18 IL Parrothead

IL Parrothead

    Owner of 2008 Marquis Epic #2

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 327 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 04:57 PM

Yeah Soakerman, I'm not a dealer. I'm just a consumer looking to buy a hot tub soon. But I have no delusions that the tubs you're buying at Walmart, Costco or other big box stores are equal quality to HS, D1, Marquis, Jacuzzi, Caldera, Sundance, etc. You definitely get what you pay for. Costco could probably (assuming one of the top tub manufacturers would agree to it) sell a top-notch tub less than a small dealer could, but not for thousands less -- maybe hundreds. Costco obviously chooses to sell a much lower cost tub, but I haven't heard anyone argue that it's the same as the top tubs. Even the HS designed tub Costco was selling for a while had significantly fewer features than HS's regular tubs. That's not to say someone couldn't buy a Costco tub and enjoy a nice soak. But if you're looking for top therapy, top quality, top service and top energy efficiency, almost all of the people I've chatted with on this site and others would say go to the top manufacturers.

#19 mike p

mike p

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 05:38 PM

QUOTE(Chas @ Dec 23 2007, 06:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A 6 HP pump would require over twenty amps at normal load. That is about 4500 watts at 220 volts - compare it to three 1500 watt room heaters running full blast or 75 light bulbs of 60 watts each.

If things are not designed well, or if a dirty filter puts more load on it, or if you can shuttle a divert valve to flow through a single large jet - in other words as the load on the motor goes up - the amps will spike.

That will draw a lot of amps - and that equals a lot of money. The good news in this regard is that there isn't a 6 HP pump available in the pool and spa industry, so you may not really have the size you were told - or the size it is even marked.

Also - I'm sorry to say that brand of tub is not well insulated, so I would agree with your statement above that you might want to investigate supplimenting the insulation.

cool.gif

I bought some insulation today and insulated the tub I really think it will make a difference, i used pink insulation i found at home depot for $10 for a roll of 40 feet. Its rated R-13 and i put it in insulation towards the tub (brown paper toward cabinent). Left out the insulation near the pump and electric.
I think this will hopefully help me dilemna...i think the motor HP is either 4.5 or 5 maybe not 6...the manual is in the files.
I love my Hot Tub! 102 baby!

#20 Dr. Spa

Dr. Spa

    Advanced Moderator

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,106 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 December 2007 - 05:56 PM

Forget what the manual might say, that's quite probably just more marketing babble. LOOK directly at the motor on the pump, and read the rating plate. It should look something like below. Come back and post what the AMP rating is. From there, it's simple to calculate horsepower. Amps x volts = watts. 1 horsepower is equivalent to 746 watts.. By the way, all this is going to tell is the maximun amount of hp the motor is CAPABLE of producing. The ONLY way to know HOW MUCH hp the motor is ACTUALLY exerting is to put an amp meter on the motor while it's operating (more on this later)


What the heck do I know, I only started in this industry in 1981, and retired from it after 33 years.
(from service tech to co-owner of Roberts Hot Tubs, manufacturer of traditional wooden hot tubs & spa covers)

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

If you can't sell it on ebay, it may not even qualify as landfill.

#21 soakerman

soakerman

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 594 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 06:03 PM

QUOTE(IL Parrothead @ Dec 23 2007, 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah Soakerman, I'm not a dealer. I'm just a consumer looking to buy a hot tub soon. But I have no delusions that the tubs you're buying at Walmart, Costco or other big box stores are equal quality to HS, D1, Marquis, Jacuzzi, Caldera, Sundance, etc. You definitely get what you pay for. Costco could probably (assuming one of the top tub manufacturers would agree to it) sell a top-notch tub less than a small dealer could, but not for thousands less -- maybe hundreds. Costco obviously chooses to sell a much lower cost tub, but I haven't heard anyone argue that it's the same as the top tubs. Even the HS designed tub Costco was selling for a while had significantly fewer features than HS's regular tubs. That's not to say someone couldn't buy a Costco tub and enjoy a nice soak. But if you're looking for top therapy, top quality, top service and top energy efficiency, almost all of the people I've chatted with on this site and others would say go to the top manufacturers.


These people "others" all paid for a top dollar spa and would never say anything less. Costco can and does sell spas for less all the time day in and day out. case in point is the Legend from Hyrdrospa sold through Costco is a factual four thousand dollars less then the Clearwater spa dealer right accross the street with the exact components down to the model number and the exact options again the same manufacturere and line. Thats the facts. As to your H.S. sovereign/ highlife, you can directly compare it to a similar spa sold through H.S. dealer and se that it is two thousand less then their comparable spa. unless you can name a spa that sells for what costco sells with the same options, same controlls ect. then yours is just a opinion.

Mike..... I would also look at the Reflective foil wrap as that seems to be a great fix to help with insulation. Let us know if you see any differance in your energy usage.



soakerman

#22 thestallion

thestallion

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 06:34 PM

QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(IL Parrothead @ Dec 23 2007, 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah Soakerman, I'm not a dealer. I'm just a consumer looking to buy a hot tub soon. But I have no delusions that the tubs you're buying at Walmart, Costco or other big box stores are equal quality to HS, D1, Marquis, Jacuzzi, Caldera, Sundance, etc. You definitely get what you pay for. Costco could probably (assuming one of the top tub manufacturers would agree to it) sell a top-notch tub less than a small dealer could, but not for thousands less -- maybe hundreds. Costco obviously chooses to sell a much lower cost tub, but I haven't heard anyone argue that it's the same as the top tubs. Even the HS designed tub Costco was selling for a while had significantly fewer features than HS's regular tubs. That's not to say someone couldn't buy a Costco tub and enjoy a nice soak. But if you're looking for top therapy, top quality, top service and top energy efficiency, almost all of the people I've chatted with on this site and others would say go to the top manufacturers.


These people "others" all paid for a top dollar spa and would never say anything less. Costco can and does sell spas for less all the time day in and day out. case in point is the Legend from Hyrdrospa sold through Costco is a factual four thousand dollars less then the Clearwater spa dealer right accross the street with the exact components down to the model number and the exact options again the same manufacturere and line. Thats the facts. As to your H.S. sovereign/ highlife, you can directly compare it to a similar spa sold through H.S. dealer and se that it is two thousand less then their comparable spa. unless you can name a spa that sells for what costco sells with the same options, same controlls ect. then yours is just a opinion.

Mike..... I would also look at the Reflective foil wrap as that seems to be a great fix to help with insulation. Let us know if you see any differance in your energy usage.



Hey Soakerman,

You seem to like spew a lot of undocumented personal opinions but you do not have much fact or anything of substance to back them up. I asked you a direct question and you did not respond but instead you attack the above poster. So whats up do you have anything to say or show other than you opinion which you are most certainly entitled to but it is what it, your thoughts on what you think things are or what they should be. When someone is so rigid in thier defense of something like you seem to be with Costco spas. it make me and I am sure others wonder what is your real agenda ?

#23 thestallion

thestallion

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 06:38 PM

QUOTE(thestallion @ Dec 23 2007, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(spatech (the unreal one) @ Dec 23 2007, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(mike p @ Dec 22 2007, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Its a costco Tub made by Keys Backyard its the Discover Ecstasy 6 person tub.
It has 1 pump speed and the pump I think is about 5 or 6 HP. I have a 50 amp breaker which i think is pretty standard.
It is a pretty empty shell inside the cabinents so I think I will insulate sometime this month.


That is not really a 5 HP pump. That's the Brake HP. In terms of real HP (not the deceptive bhp rating they give to make you think you're getting more than you are) that is about a 2.5 HP pump, or so.



Why don't you share with us the spec sheet if your so sure of your statement! We know that these spas are alot less expensive alternative to a dealer spa thus giving consumers a better option price wise then a dealer inflated spa of simmilar quality. With that said, it is a 5 H.P. pump and that is a fact. The same fact the same spa at a dealer would cost two thousand dollars more for a like spa is a fact! Otherwise these spas would not be sold through Costco if the dealer spas where priced the same for simmilar spas with simmilar options.



soakerman,

Why such a apologist for Costco ? You make some bold statements about what a dealer would charge for a similar spa, other than your rhetoric do you have anything to prove these cliams. We as dealers can certainly offer spas of similar quality for a similar price. The reason many of choose not to, is that the product is not something we want to live with on a daily basis knowing the long term and short term problems these spas bring. Over this summer we did some off site events and I wanted to really offer some "deals". I sold 44 jet spas with 2 *5* hp pumps water fall, stereo, lift, steps, led lighting and unlike Costco delivery to your backyard with chems $4995.00. I stopped selling them and not because they did not sell, they sold well. But no matter what you want to believe or what I hoped for they ARE NOT the equal of A Sundance, a Hot Springs, A Marquis, A Jacuzzi. etc. Some people live life with blinders on and want to think you can buy a car like a Hyundai and it is the same as the Lexus because a commercial says so, no matter what the ad says or they hope for it is not the same. There is no way that products of equal value can be produced for thousands less. The market economy of the world does not allow for it. some products are good values and may hold enough value for a person to choose the lower priced but there will be compromises in the process.


There you go Soakerman in case you may have missed it. So please tell me with real world and solid facts as to what we can and cannot sell.


#24 thestallion

thestallion

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 06:45 PM

QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(IL Parrothead @ Dec 23 2007, 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah Soakerman, I'm not a dealer. I'm just a consumer looking to buy a hot tub soon. But I have no delusions that the tubs you're buying at Walmart, Costco or other big box stores are equal quality to HS, D1, Marquis, Jacuzzi, Caldera, Sundance, etc. You definitely get what you pay for. Costco could probably (assuming one of the top tub manufacturers would agree to it) sell a top-notch tub less than a small dealer could, but not for thousands less -- maybe hundreds. Costco obviously chooses to sell a much lower cost tub, but I haven't heard anyone argue that it's the same as the top tubs. Even the HS designed tub Costco was selling for a while had significantly fewer features than HS's regular tubs. That's not to say someone couldn't buy a Costco tub and enjoy a nice soak. But if you're looking for top therapy, top quality, top service and top energy efficiency, almost all of the people I've chatted with on this site and others would say go to the top manufacturers.




Mike..... I would also look at the Reflective foil wrap as that seems to be a great fix to help with insulation. Let us know if you see any differance in your energy usage.



Interesting advice there Soakerman Tell me when have you ever read about a HS, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Marquis, etc where on a new tub the owners are running to a store to try and insulate thier spa. In your own words you say;

"I would also look at the Reflective foil wrap as that seems to be a great fix to help with insulation"

This seems to imply that this is an ongoing issue with these spas and if that's correct than how you can pretend they are the equal of the brands I mentioned. Again nothing wrong with a Costco spa but just understand what you are getting .

#25 spatech (the unreal one)

spatech (the unreal one)

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,818 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 06:49 PM

QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Costco can and does sell spas for less all the time day in and day out.


Costco generally sells low quality, poorly insulated spas. They are not a bad value as they sell them cheap but that's appropriate because they are a cheaply made product. In other words, they sell for about what they are worth. You don't save money, you just spend less.

You get no service and the warranty isn't worth much more than the paper its written on so you better be prepared to diagnose and possibly fix it yourself but some will say they spent less and are prepared to be their own spa tech (being a DIYer is almost a must for Costco buyers). Step one as we all know, open it up and insulate it, don't wait for the first couple energy bills because they always disappoint.

Those who go in with their eyes open typically aren't too disappointed. Some, like Soakerman argue that there is a conspiracy going on but in reality they either have a need to blindly justify their purchase or have a Costco card that says "employee".

#26 Chas

Chas

    Nice guy. Really.

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,334 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 07:25 PM

QUOTE(spatech (the unreal one) @ Dec 23 2007, 06:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
they either have a need to blindly justify their purchase or have a Costco card that says "employee".



laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif




cool.gif
Poolspaforum.com Moderator
Award Winning HotSpring Dealer

#27 mike p

mike p

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 07:26 PM

Well even if Costco spas are poorly insulated I just fixed mine for under $20...if that is what it takes to become as efficient as a spa say 500 or 1,000 dollars more than I am still ok with it.
I love my Hot Tub! 102 baby!

#28 Chas

Chas

    Nice guy. Really.

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,334 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 07:30 PM

QUOTE(mike p @ Dec 23 2007, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well even if Costco spas are poorly insulated I just fixed mine for under $20...if that is what it takes to become as efficient as a spa say 500 or 1,000 dollars more than I am still ok with it.



Well, let's hope it works for you - and in any case, enjoy your tub. It can open up wonderful times together with family and friends, and bring enjoyment to life in many other ways.

cool.gif
Poolspaforum.com Moderator
Award Winning HotSpring Dealer

#29 soakerman

soakerman

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 594 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 08:40 PM

QUOTE(thestallion @ Dec 23 2007, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(IL Parrothead @ Dec 23 2007, 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah Soakerman, I'm not a dealer. I'm just a consumer looking to buy a hot tub soon. But I have no delusions that the tubs you're buying at Walmart, Costco or other big box stores are equal quality to HS, D1, Marquis, Jacuzzi, Caldera, Sundance, etc. You definitely get what you pay for. Costco could probably (assuming one of the top tub manufacturers would agree to it) sell a top-notch tub less than a small dealer could, but not for thousands less -- maybe hundreds. Costco obviously chooses to sell a much lower cost tub, but I haven't heard anyone argue that it's the same as the top tubs. Even the HS designed tub Costco was selling for a while had significantly fewer features than HS's regular tubs. That's not to say someone couldn't buy a Costco tub and enjoy a nice soak. But if you're looking for top therapy, top quality, top service and top energy efficiency, almost all of the people I've chatted with on this site and others would say go to the top manufacturers.




Mike..... I would also look at the Reflective foil wrap as that seems to be a great fix to help with insulation. Let us know if you see any differance in your energy usage.



Interesting advice there Soakerman Tell me when have you ever read about a HS, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Marquis, etc where on a new tub the owners are running to a store to try and insulate thier spa. In your own words you say;

"I would also look at the Reflective foil wrap as that seems to be a great fix to help with insulation"

This seems to imply that this is an ongoing issue with these spas and if that's correct than how you can pretend they are the equal of the brands I mentioned. Again nothing wrong with a Costco spa but just understand what you are getting .


If you re read the post, you will see the spa I used as a competitive spa was not the keys spa that the poster was asking for help on. Please tell me the differance then if you will of the spa I refrenced.

soakerman

#30 thestallion

thestallion

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 08:43 PM

Mike,

I hope it does help. Will it ever be as good as the spa that does cost more, no not likely but if it works for and your happy that's all that matters. I think Chas stated it very well, a spa is great place to be with those you care about. I wish you many a long and soothing soak. Please know that no one here was putting down your purchase but just trying to keep things real as it is unfair when some cliam it is the very thing as many of the better known makers when it is not.

#31 thestallion

thestallion

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 10:11 PM

QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 08:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(thestallion @ Dec 23 2007, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 23 2007, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(IL Parrothead @ Dec 23 2007, 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah Soakerman, I'm not a dealer. I'm just a consumer looking to buy a hot tub soon. But I have no delusions that the tubs you're buying at Walmart, Costco or other big box stores are equal quality to HS, D1, Marquis, Jacuzzi, Caldera, Sundance, etc. You definitely get what you pay for. Costco could probably (assuming one of the top tub manufacturers would agree to it) sell a top-notch tub less than a small dealer could, but not for thousands less -- maybe hundreds. Costco obviously chooses to sell a much lower cost tub, but I haven't heard anyone argue that it's the same as the top tubs. Even the HS designed tub Costco was selling for a while had significantly fewer features than HS's regular tubs. That's not to say someone couldn't buy a Costco tub and enjoy a nice soak. But if you're looking for top therapy, top quality, top service and top energy efficiency, almost all of the people I've chatted with on this site and others would say go to the top manufacturers.




Mike..... I would also look at the Reflective foil wrap as that seems to be a great fix to help with insulation. Let us know if you see any differance in your energy usage.



Interesting advice there Soakerman Tell me when have you ever read about a HS, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Marquis, etc where on a new tub the owners are running to a store to try and insulate thier spa. In your own words you say;

"I would also look at the Reflective foil wrap as that seems to be a great fix to help with insulation"

This seems to imply that this is an ongoing issue with these spas and if that's correct than how you can pretend they are the equal of the brands I mentioned. Again nothing wrong with a Costco spa but just understand what you are getting .


If you re read the post, you will see the spa I used as a competitive spa was not the keys spa that the poster was asking for help on. Please tell me the differance then if you will of the spa I refrenced.


Sorry Soakerman but you are going to have do better than dodge and weave to avoid answering a question with a question, So step up and answer. You said Costco spas and again look at what we can sell if we want to. Why are you under some allusion that we as dealers can not also carry lower end tubs. Do you actually believe that only Costco can bring in cheap spas that the 5000 plus dealers across the country do not have the ability to carry these types of spas.

What do you really know about spas. Do you not know the makers like HS, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Marquis, D-1 all have patented jets and designs in thier spas that spas is all they make (Jacuzzi does have a bath line but it is all related products).

#32 IL Parrothead

IL Parrothead

    Owner of 2008 Marquis Epic #2

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 327 posts

Posted 23 December 2007 - 10:40 PM

And, Soakerman, there have been a few past threads about the difference between a full-featured HS and the Highlife (or whatever it was called) manufactured by HS for Costco. Big difference. Hence the large price difference. And, I had heard HS stopped selling to Costco. Looking at the Costco website, it doesn't appear they're selling those tubs anymore. To echo what I believe Chas said (and what I said earlier), I hope Mike LOVES his spa. We all do. But let's compare apples to apples. You can buy less and pay less. And if you don't insulate it, you'll end up paying the same (or more) than if you had gone with one of the top tubs, which admittedly initially cost more. And you may not have the same level of reliability or service. That's it.

#33 TinyBubbles

TinyBubbles

    Spa Guru

  • Validating
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 678 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 06:42 AM

QUOTE(mike p @ Dec 22 2007, 07:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So I Have anxiously been waiting for my first power bill to come. I got my hot tub in early November right when my billing cylce began and I just got the bill for 1 full month of Electricity since owning my Hot Tub.
My Last three electric Bills were as follows:
September: $236 (AC was cranked)
October: $137
November: $95

Then December came and it was $177!!!!
That's a pretty big difference... I keep it on economy mode (101) and turn on to STD just about every night to I can soak for 20-30 minutes or so then it goes back to economy. I did have Christmas Lights on but that could only have been maybe $5-$10.
Any help???


Mike, the difference between your September and October bill was a big difference. The difference between your November and October bill was big. The difference between September and November was huge! My point...it may not just be your tub effecting your bill. Dirty furnace filters, extra loads of laundry, longer showers, outside temperatures, can all effect power bills. One lady was on here absolutely freaked out about her huge power bills since owning a spa, ends up she had added a room onto her home. I think it's really hard for you to get a clear picture since you can't compare apples to apples (power bill for last year at this time). And look at it this way, you paid $236 in September to enjoy your ac, this month you only paid $177 to enjoy your spa. There does seem to be a big difference between the energy consumption of full foam vs. non-full foam spas, but if you are enjoying your spa, then put it in perspective. Maybe you could get set up on a levelized billing program with your power company. It is nice, however, to hear your experience so that others can make an informed decision when they are purchasing a spa. I hope your insulation helps you out.

#34 B0Darc

B0Darc

    Spa Savant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 234 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 07:11 AM

I get confused when anyone asserts that a business person is guilty of something when they make a profit. Is there really a spa dealer who is secretly rich and selling spas at cost? Most products are doubled, I don't know about spas. Out in the world everything you buy was about half the cost to the shopkeeper... is that news? C0stco and W-mart S-Club all make their low prices by cutting out the middle man, and in this case by changing some of the components (perhaps debatable) inside the spas in question... is that news? You *always* get what you pay for, how could it be any other way? When you cut out the middle man always remember who he is... If you don't have need for one, then Costco may be the way to go for you. Hey especially if it's the difference between being able to afford a hottub or not.

The real dirty secret of W-Mart is that once you supply a product line to them as a manufacturer you get added to the supply-chain blacklist. Do you think I would rep a spa line that was also being sold by W-Mart or C0stco or S-Club? You'd have to be an idiot. So there's a fine line between selling an entire line and a special singular product made especially made for C0stco (pardon all the google-blocking) made to *not* kill all major line sales to retail dealers. If I was to make a guess it would be that C0stco discovered they indeed were selling a product that was in such a dire need of the support delivered by the middle-man they cut out, that they were only ending up with disgruntled customers... not a C0stco business strategy. Just reading this forum it's very apparent to me exactly the level of customer hand-holding we are talking about. That guy holding your hand deserves to get paid... as much as the market will bear. Buying and cut rate spa is buying cut rate Support... better be very handy (like me ;-))

#35 soakerman

soakerman

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 594 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 08:10 AM

QUOTE(B0Darc @ Dec 26 2007, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I get confused when anyone asserts that a business person is guilty of something when they make a profit. Don't be confused, no one is against proffit but rather predatory pricing at most spa dealerships where no customer pays the same price for a like spa.

Is there really a spa dealer who is secretly rich and selling spas at cost? Most products are doubled, I don't know about spas. Out in the world everything you buy was about half the cost to the shopkeeper... is that news? C0stco and W-mart S-Club all make their low prices by cutting out the middle man, and in this case by changing some of the components (perhaps debatable) So the Sony or toshiba tv you buy at Costco has the insides changed? or the Micheline tires are somehow different due to Costco selling them? Your funny! Its a spa dealers hope that the inside of the spas in question... is that news? You *always* get what you pay for, how could it be any other way? When you cut out the middle man always remember who he is... If you don't have need for one, then Costco may be the way to go for you. Hey especially if it's the difference between being able to afford a hottub or not.

The real dirty secret of W-Mart is that once you supply a product line to them as a manufacturer you get added to the supply-chain blacklist. SO your saying Sony, RCA, Rubermaid are blacklisted ???? NO WAY!!!!!!

Do you think I would rep a spa line that was also being sold by W-Mart or C0stco or S-Club? You'd have to be an idiot. So there's a fine line between selling an entire line and a special singular product made especially made for C0stco (pardon all the google-blocking) made to *not* kill all major line sales to retail dealers. If I was to make a guess it would be that C0stco discovered they indeed were selling a product that was in such a dire need of the support delivered by the middle-man they cut out, that they were only ending up with disgruntled customers... not a C0stco business strategy. Just reading this forum it's very apparent to me exactly the level of customer hand-holding we are talking about. That guy holding your hand deserves to get paid... as much as the market will bear. Buying and cut rate spa is buying cut rate Support... better be very handy (like me ;-))



Your right!!!!!! But, why the price diff customer to customer... thats not profit, thats robbery! No one minds a person makeing a profit, we all have to pay the bills. Peope hate predetory sales tactics that make a customer want to kill the salesman or dealership after the sell if a spa once he finds out what " others" paid for the exact same spa from the same dealer..

We all agree that the original poster should really enjoy his spa for a very long time. He made a well informed purchase for himself that will give years of enjoyment.

soakerman

#36 spatech (the unreal one)

spatech (the unreal one)

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,818 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 08:28 AM

QUOTE(soakerman @ Dec 26 2007, 08:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He made a well informed purchase for himself that will give years of enjoyment.


People who buy spas from Costco generally know very little about what spas are out there and typically buy based on price IMO. I'm not knocking them; it is a so-so spa sold at a good price but I don't believe there is much research behind the choice more often than not.

I've spoken to more than a couple Costco spa owners who had the "I buy a lot of good through Costco. The price was good and I thought all spas were basically alike" premise before many realized the quality, energy use and warranty service can be substandard. A false sense that the product was at a higher level than reality along with price and that feeling of familiarity with buying through Costco are the reasons most go that route IMO rather than it being an informed choice.

#37 B0Darc

B0Darc

    Spa Savant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 234 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 09:00 AM

Well this shouldn't digress into a W-mart discussion but I defy you to find an *exact* model# of ANY thing sold at W-mart at another store... try ...seriously. You can PM me any results. Like I said it's a dirty little secret as manufacturers must supply W-mart and other stores. Try say electronics or fishing reels, anything with a precise model number. You're gonna find out that the beloved W sells alot of singular-model bottom-of-the-line not-made-in-the-USA products.

You and I are in total agreement, but the real matter is that spas are like cars and people don't pay the same prices for them (exact same car) either. It's a hard-core big-ticket market-driven customer arena and not like say... computer sales where precise side-by-side comparisons can be easily made. Spa sales has more room for BS and emotional/impulse decision. I mean Master Spas high end tubs utilize magnets as a selling point! I can't wait until therapeutic magnets are available for the seat of my car cool.gif (please let us not start THAT discussion rolleyes.gif ) The tactics are unfair on both ends... like the guy who wastes the dealers time by having the dealer wet-demo the spa that eventually gets bought at the discount place. Fairness doesn't factor in very well from either direction.

I didn't want to hijack this thread which has alot of merit. I think most people work hard to avoid "buyers regret", like researching things online before they buy. I have seen many postings here reflecting exactly that... "what model should I buy?" I think we are seeing some buyers regret when we see someone who bought a tub that was cheaper in the short run, but turned out to be poorly insulated (a manufacturers cost cutting move to be sure!) and therefore more expensive in the long run. The power of this forum is delivering the FIX! Exactly how and where to insulate. That's good stuff. I don't see anything wrong with getting a cheaper tub and adding insulation or perhaps expecting more DIY repairs. The saying is "...it takes what you make" and luxury items like hottubs ...I think people spend as much as they can afford... and I'm an certain there is a dealer out there to give you a hand doing just that.

#38 spatech (the unreal one)

spatech (the unreal one)

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,818 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 09:23 AM

QUOTE(B0Darc @ Dec 26 2007, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't see anything wrong with getting a cheaper tub and adding insulation or perhaps expecting more DIY repairs.


I very much agree with that statement but the key is to go in with yours eyes open.

#39 thestallion

thestallion

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 09:26 AM

BODarc,

I think you give a great example of how retailers all have different ways to get the end of the same road. Running a profitable business. There are some here like Soakerman who make claims about huge dealer profits and he uses likes to speak dealers ripping off customers and the spa retailers are pretty much dirt and Costco sells the same spa as you get from a small single store retailer for thousands of dollars less. And he hates to hear that is simply not true. I find so revealing about his complete lack of commitment to be truthful when I have asked 4 times if the spas are as he claims they why have you never read about someone buying a HS, Marquis, Sundance, etc and taking home this purchase and than after getting a electric bill the owner running to buy insulation to try and stop the huge energy consumption in all his rants he never answers this simple question. I think it is obvious that any answer simply points to the differences in build quality. What most reasonable people understand is a Costco spa is fine just understand what it is and do not think it is the same as the bigger and better known makers of spas in the industry.

#40 B0Darc

B0Darc

    Spa Savant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 234 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 09:46 AM

The most profitable businesses are in one place... the Mall. That is because it has the most foot traffic, etc. It's also the most expensive overhead (rent). See many spa dealers in the new big local Mall? You might see them in the outlying malls (read: cheaper!), but never next to a Neiman Markup... you know why? They don't make enough money. I don't think anyone's getting rich selling spas. Who *are* the richest people in the country? The owners of W-mart...

I think most of all YOU should shop where you think "FAIRNESS" is being served. Personally I'd rather support my neighbor staying in business... at what cost? well we'll work that out like gentlemen. Since when did the lowest price equal the most fairness? If you believe anything fair is happening at a W-mart, then you aren't looking close enough. Cutting out the middleman is a failed strategy ...well it works on the 24-pack of paper towels. I think people are sick and tired of no customer support. Choose wisely as every dollar you spend is a vote of how you want YOUR future to be.

#41 IL Parrothead

IL Parrothead

    Owner of 2008 Marquis Epic #2

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 327 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 10:03 AM

I agree with BODarc. The reason the big box stores carry Sony, RCA & Rubbermaid is because the consumer is much better educated about TV's, camcorders and other appliances that they buy regularly. They won't buy a "MasterCam", a "Dynasty Plasma" or a Joe Blow appliance just because it's shiny and looks the same on the outside. Same for cars. People know who makes the good cars. Why do you think Toyota, Honda, (and their luxury lines Lexus & Acura) are selling the most cars? Because they're the most reliable. You think Toyotas are inexpensive? Or Lexus? Look again. And like spas, cars are not sold for the same price to everyone. They carry a MSRP -- Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price -- just like a spa. The individual dealer, feeling market pressure, can decide what to sell to you for. If a non-haggling consumer walks in and just wants to purchase at MSRP, so be it. Maybe it's not in their make-up to negotiate. That doesn't make the dealer evil. And I'm not a dealer. I negotiate for a living, but can't feel good trying to negotiate all of a dealer's profit out of a sale. He/she deserves to make a living too. I expect a fair price, and that's what I hope to pay. I am happy that the big box stores make spas available to those that wouldn't choose or couldn't afford to pay for the top names. More people in the soaking community. But let's be honest about what they're selling.

#42 spatech (the unreal one)

spatech (the unreal one)

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,818 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 10:18 AM

QUOTE(B0Darc @ Dec 26 2007, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cutting out the middleman is a failed strategy ...


Cutting out the middle man is an overused and misunderstood theory.

Infinity, Hydro or whoever sells directly to Costco who then sells to the customer. How is that different than when those manufacturers sell to the dealer who then sells to the customer? From a sales standpoint, they have not cut out any middle man.

The only way anyone is cut out is relative to delivery, customer service and warranty service because once Costco gets paid they are out of the picture whereas the dealer is there after the sale. Eliminating these services does reduce the selling price but then the customer has to deal with delivery, has to deal with troubleshooting their own spa when issues arise and then either has to deal with getting a 3rd party to fix the spa themselves or surprisingly to some they ahev to fix it themselves. Each person has to decide what is right for them.

That is why Iíve always said if youíre going to go the big box route you REALLY want to be a DIYer.


#43 Brock

Brock

    Spa Savant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 59 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 10:39 AM

I would not personally lump spas or anything else sold by COSTCO as poor quality......but rather as an economy model which may have fewer bells and whistles or things like Insulation, pumps, etc being fewer or lower capabilities.

The COSTCO buyer should be someone that is a do it yourselfer....install themselves...wire themselves...with decent electrical and plumbing background as you will need to do it all yourself unless you got a buddy or source for work at fair price.

Someone like me with no electrical or plumbing background is not a good choice for that spa...I can do the insulation and all but not what I wanted. Some things I will work with and fiddle with...a spa with large amp pull and full of water is not one I want to make an ooopsie on and either toast myself or my home. That being said I have bought many other well made and fairly priced items from COSTCO.

As for electrical usage....my spa is a COLEMAN by MAX...not a HS or D1 but not bottom rung either. I knew what I was getting...reputation...quality....warranty...local shop reputation...etc. So far no issues and they have addressed all my concerns promptly and at no charge. The way I look at it though is I use the spa 3x as much in winter as summer....so what i would normally spend on AC is now being spent on SPA...actually I still spend less on spa as wife likes it cool in summer.

So you get what you pay for in some regards or what you are willing to do on your own....I got great price on my spa as it was floor model and had some slight cosmetic damage on back edge of insert lip where it overlaps sides. Everyone has to buy what they are comfortable with buying....as not all of us can afford a 15-20,000 spa just as some of us would never buy a spa from a lesser known manufacture that was $2000. It is all what you want....not anyone else.



#44 B0Darc

B0Darc

    Spa Savant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 234 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 11:53 AM

QUOTE(spatech (the unreal one) @ Dec 26 2007, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(B0Darc @ Dec 26 2007, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cutting out the middleman is a failed strategy ...


Cutting out the middle man is an overused and misunderstood theory.
<snip>

Well technically you got me there, because we're really talking about cutting out the last guy, the retailer, not the middleman. Kinda interesting how we bought that bill of goods, eh. I mean how did these stores ever convince us they could cut out the middleman (technically the distributor, the guy between the manufacturer and the retailer), and not have to act like a true retailer either (provide in-depth Customer Support)?

This is how it used to work, and all of it was based on a working principle of "feedback" along the supply chain. Let's say there's a widget you like and it's about $25. Can you be angry when you find out the manufacturer actually sells them for $10? Well the manufacturer is in China and you want your widget today! The retailer special orders your widget from the distributor who has a warehouse in your 100 mile radius and he can courier it over to you by 3:00. For the cost incurred to anticipate your need (gamble) and pay the $10 up front to stock them in inventory he gets to make 15-25% and charges the retailer $12.50. The retailer, for the cost incurred to have a storefront in your favorite Mall (how convenient for you!) the retailer gets to double that (at minimum!) and sell it to you for $25.

The Big-Mart goes to China and says, "How much will you sell this to us if we agree to buy 1 million widgets?" In absolute glee they say "$7.50!" Now Big-Mart can retail at $15 and well...anyone selling it for $25 looks like a crook. Just so you younger folk know...

<rant off>

#45 thestallion

thestallion

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 12:39 PM

QUOTE(B0Darc @ Dec 26 2007, 11:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(spatech (the unreal one) @ Dec 26 2007, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(B0Darc @ Dec 26 2007, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cutting out the middleman is a failed strategy ...



<snip>





The Big-Mart goes to China and says, "How much will you sell this to us if we agree to buy 1 million widgets?" In absolute glee they say "$7.50!" Now Big-Mart can retail at $15 and well...anyone selling it for $25 looks like a crook. Just so you younger folk know...

<rant off>


Well you pretty much got it. Also one thing that does happen is to hit the price they want for some items they are tweaked in the manufacturing process. I know of one product that is an outdoor item where the gage of aluminum used is lighter and where a steel cable was used it is nylon most would not pick up the subtle difference but it is a way to shave the cost and to make it look like a better deal than it actually is as it really is not the same exact product.


I would also add at what point does service matter and what I mean is are you willing to pay a little more when you walk into a store that offers choices and with them the knowledge to break down the differences in like products and to also help a consumer understand all they need to know about a product. Take HD TV's as an example, many many people think that all they need to is buy the TV that watching in the store and they are going to get that same Crystal clear picture they see in the store not understanding that is running on a HD loop. Many folks do not understand that without the HD receiver and the right cables your picture may an not be even as clear as an old traditional set. Becasue that TV they watching is running with a HD loop and its looks great and they expect the same when they get home. I think the bottom like here is that big box can be a great place for certain items and with others you really need to be a educated shopper and know what you are getting and what your not. The whole issue with this long running thread is some people want to make claims that are totally false and have zero merit and really in the long run may sway someone to make a very poor choice for their needs as they do not know the pluses as well as the minus to buying a item like a spa at a Big Box store.

#46 biggz

biggz

    Hot Tub Aficionado

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 333 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 01:03 PM

I own a Keys spa and haven't seen the dramatic increase in my electric bill that Mike saw. ohmy.gif I haven't added any insulation and my bill was $30 (standard mode) more then last year Dec which was warmer. The spa isn't a high end spa and I knew that when I made my purchase. I had 1 clogged jet and called Keys. They had a tech at my door in 2 days. I've had no other problems and soak daily. I do think that if you never owned a spa or had any experience with one it's a decent alternative to buying from a dealer. Some people think they'll use there spas daily and find out after owning one that it's not all that they thought it would be. I don't knock anyone that chooses to buy a higher end product (I certainly could) especially if they live up north, but between the water balancing and the way they use the tub "Soakers vs Jetters" a person really won't no how much spa they really need. In my particular case, I made the right decision living in So central Florida. The Keys tub I have has 2 pumps rated at 8.8 amps and 12.5 amps respectively. As Tiny said earlier, there could be other factors that gave Mike the results that he had. He could be leaving the air valves on which would be cooling the tub while he thinks he's heating it only. The Keys is not a HS or a Jacuzzi but it's better then a Spa in a box. All tubs will have problems over time but to learn the luxury of a good soak doesn't mean soaking your wallet the first time out the gate. The only thing worst then not owning a tub is owning one that sits there for days heating hot water with no one using it. Now what's more cost effective?
Biggz cool.gif
"Conquering the stumbling blocks is easier when the conqueror is in tune with the infinite" George Clinton

#47 thestallion

thestallion

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 01:15 PM

Good to hear you are enjoying your tub. Congratulations. I think the reason this thread has gotten so off track is that there is an individual here who seems to have a agenda and is getting called out on it. For the right person and situation a Costco spa can be a great choice. If you live in SO CAL and a like tub with dealer support come see us we can offer the same price and the support. But as you point out and understand they are not the same spa as the upper end line but are still a nice unit when looked at for what they are.

#48 B0Darc

B0Darc

    Spa Savant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 234 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 01:53 PM

QUOTE(TinyBubbles @ Dec 26 2007, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mike, the difference between your September and October bill was a big difference. The difference between your November and October bill was big. The difference between September and November was huge! My point...it may not just be your tub effecting your bill. Dirty furnace filters, extra loads of laundry, longer showers, outside temperatures, can all effect power bills. One lady was on here absolutely freaked out about her huge power bills since owning a spa, ends up she had added a room onto her home. I think it's really hard for you to get a clear picture since you can't compare apples to apples (power bill for last year at this time). And look at it this way, you paid $236 in September to enjoy your ac, this month you only paid $177 to enjoy your spa. There does seem to be a big difference between the energy consumption of full foam vs. non-full foam spas, but if you are enjoying your spa, then put it in perspective. Maybe you could get set up on a levelized billing program with your power company. It is nice, however, to hear your experience so that others can make an informed decision when they are purchasing a spa. I hope your insulation helps you out.

QUOTE(biggz @ Dec 26 2007, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I own a Keys spa... <snip> All tubs will have problems over time but to learn the luxury of a good soak doesn't mean soaking your wallet the first time out the gate. <clip>
Biggz cool.gif

true true, personally I bought a floor model at a show and got a unbeatable deal (time will tell). Buying a spa is alot like reading this thread <heh> Hey I looked at the Keys spas because I could get credit through HomeDespot and I don't think that is quite the same thing as Costco in terms of what level of service you can expect... and while they were very fairly priced, I don't think there has been much labeling of Keys spas as a "Box Store" item. In fairness to our victim...I mean the new Forum member, I reposted TinyBubbz' post so we could maybe do Mike some good, thanks Biggz for bringing up Tiny's post.

And for Mike, you can search the forum for the word "insulation" and find lots of information...although reading through all the BS takes dedication, there is some excellent detailed info to be gathered. A recent post gave a great link but it was just a "look here" and might be hard to find, but should be in this top level of topics. Whittle down all the little things that can add up dollar by dollar... like leaving the air jets open when you get out. That allows your spa to suck in cold air during filter cycles and cool the water. When you get out close the little levers that add bubbles. Then there's thing like "blankets", a sheet of custom cut bubble wrap type material that lies directly on your water surface... and different spa covers etc. Hopefully you have looked at some of these topics already as you are not the only one suffering the woes of winter heating a big kettle of allegedly clear and sparkling people stew.

what? cool.gif

#49 biggz

biggz

    Hot Tub Aficionado

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 333 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 01:54 PM

QUOTE(thestallion @ Dec 26 2007, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good to hear you are enjoying your tub. Congratulations. I think the reason this thread has gotten so off track is that you an individual here who seems to have a agenda and is getting called out on it.


'thestallion' I'm not sure of what your saying since I have no agenda and could care less what a person decides to purchase. I'm making an informed statement as a first time owner of this tub only to point out that these tubs are not as bad as some make them out to be. These threads are entertaining and the only reason I decided to put my two cents in is there are many factors that would raise the energy consumption during the cold season. Mikes statement regarding the pumps 6 HP rating indicates the he may not be as astute in using his tub but given time he'll see the error in his statement. Where talking about tubs not rocket science and all they are to me regardless of what they are is nothing more then a vessel that holds hot water.laugh.gif
"Conquering the stumbling blocks is easier when the conqueror is in tune with the infinite" George Clinton

#50 thestallion

thestallion

    Spa Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts

Posted 26 December 2007 - 02:01 PM

QUOTE(B0Darc @ Dec 26 2007, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(TinyBubbles @ Dec 26 2007, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mike, the difference between your September and October bill was a big difference. The difference between your November and October bill was big. The difference between September and November was huge! My point...it may not just be your tub effecting your bill. Dirty furnace filters, extra loads of laundry, longer showers, outside temperatures, can all effect power bills. One lady was on here absolutely freaked out about her huge power bills since owning a spa, ends up she had added a room onto her home. I think it's really hard for you to get a clear picture since you can't compare apples to apples (power bill for last year at this time). And look at it this way, you paid $236 in September to enjoy your ac, this month you only paid $177 to enjoy your spa. There does seem to be a big difference between the energy consumption of full foam vs. non-full foam spas, but if you are enjoying your spa, then put it in perspective. Maybe you could get set up on a levelized billing program with your power company. It is nice, however, to hear your experience so that others can make an informed decision when they are purchasing a spa. I hope your insulation helps you out.

QUOTE(biggz @ Dec 26 2007, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I own a Keys spa... <snip> All tubs will have problems over time but to learn the luxury of a good soak doesn't mean soaking your wallet the first time out the gate. <clip>
Biggz cool.gif

true true, personally I bought a floor model at a show and got a unbeatable deal (time will tell). Buying a spa is alot like reading this thread <heh> Hey I looked at the Keys spas because I could get credit through HomeDespot and I don't think that is quite the same thing as Costco in terms of what level of service you can expect... and while they were very fairly priced, I don't think there has been much labeling of Keys spas as a "Box Store" item. In fairness to our victim...I mean the new Forum member, I reposted TinyBubbz' post so we could maybe do Mike some good, thanks Biggz for bringing up Tiny's post.

And for Mike, you can search the forum for the word "insulation" and find lots of information...although reading through all the BS takes dedication, there is some excellent detailed info to be gathered. A recent post gave a great link but it was just a "look here" and might be hard to find, but should be in this top level of topics. Whittle down all the little things that can add up dollar by dollar... like leaving the air jets open when you get out. That allows your spa to suck in cold air during filter cycles and cool the water. When you get out close the little levers that add bubbles. Then there's thing like "blankets", a sheet of custom cut bubble wrap type material that lies directly on your water surface... and different spa covers etc. Hopefully you have looked at some of these topics already as you are not the only one suffering the woes of winter heating a big kettle of allegedly clear and sparkling people stew.

what? cool.gif


I was paying you a compliment the person with an agenda is Soakerman. You were very fair and reasonable in your assessment of the spa. I was totally sincere when I said congratulations.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

website security