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waterbear

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waterbear last won the day on February 8

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  1. It is a rebranded Nature 2 mineral stick. It contains silver nitrate and does require the use of chlorine for shocking and MPS (in conjunction with the silver and the hot water) as a sanitizer. I am not a fan of silver "mineral stick" systems. It's not really any different that the Frog systems. Is your water al cloudy green or a clear green? Cloudy indicates algae and is because you do not have a residual sanitizer in the water. Did you shock with chlorine (dichlor is the usual choice but I prefer bleach) to activate the system and have you been adding the MPS after every soak? Have you been shocking with chlorine weekly? Is your water a clear green color (and does your tub have a blue acrylic shell? If you you have iron in your water. Iron will color the water yellow and when viewed against the blue color of most tubs it makes the water look green. Both of these are water balance issues and once we determine which is your problem we can take it form there.
  2. It is a calcium buildup which can be either calcium carbonate (easy to remove) and calcium silicate (difficult to remove) There are several ways to do this. For calcium carbonate you can use a commercial pool tile cleaner with a scrub brush Muriatic acid (use proper safety gear and respirator) is the easiest and fastest , citric acid solution (will deplete chlorine until but will also help with rust and some other metal staining), pool tile soap (either by itself or mixed with muriatic acid) with a scrub brush or pool tile brush, spray on a mixture of equal parts white vinegar and water and scrub with a brush (requires a lot of scrubbing). Do not use any abrasive tools (pumice stone, Magic Eraser) because they can damage the gelcoat on your fiberglass pool since you indicated that the 'tile' is actually part of the fiberglass and not actual tile. If it is calcium silicate it is next to impossible to remove without using an abrasive, which you cannot do on a fiberglass surface.. If you had an actual tile line with real tile this would not be a problem. My favorite is tile soap and muriatic acid or a commercial tile cleaner with a tile brush.
  3. Yes, while some people might be sensitive to all halogens it is usually bromine that causes problems. Also, bromine is often used in conjunction with MPS, which is also a sensitizer. By filling with the same water and balancing the water with the same chemicals used in the tub to the same parameters. If your wife spills liquid chlorine laundry bleach on her skin (which is much more concentrated than the amount of chlorine in a tub or pool), does she have any type of reaction? If not then you can pretty much rule out a sensitivity to chlorine which, as I said, is not very common. IF you want to recreate the conditions in the tub then yes. However, it might be diffiult in the bath tub. The water temperature needs to be the same also. If you only want to test for chlorine then you need to add enough liquid laundry bleach or dichlor to create a Free Chlorine level of 4 or 5 ppm. 1 teaspoon will raise 30 gallons to about 3 ppm so add 1.5 to 2 teaspoons. If you want to use the FAS-DPD test then you would need to get R-871 titrant for chlorine. With a 10 ml sample each drop is .5 ppm FC. with a 25 ml sample each drop is .2 ppm FC. You can also get an inexpensive 2 way test kit that uses OTO reagent with a comparator that has yellow color blocks on the chlorine/bromine test. It will test total chlorine,which should be close enough for what you are trying to do. If you do switch to chlorine and want to continue using the K-2106 you will need, in addition to R-871, R-0003 for the combined chlorine test anda CYA test kit such as Taylor K-1721 or just purchase a K-2006 which will have the instructions for the CYA and chlorine tests and duplicates for the pH, acid/base demand, TA, and CH tests but might be the most cost effective way since you will need these tests for both chlorine and bromine so the reagents will not go to waste and a seond comparator is useful to have on hand. Ask your doctor but if it is not an allergic reaction but a contact dermatitis (irritation reaction) then I would think antihistamines would not be the treatment of choice since they are used to treat an allergic response and that topical steroids would be more likely to be of help. I am not a medical professional so, once again, ask your doctor. As a last resort, if your wife is sensitive to both bromine and chlorine your only alternative is to use a biguinde/peroxide based sanitizer system such as BaquaSpa or SoftSoak. I am not a fan of these since they are expensive, tend to clog filters and create scum in the spa (often referred to as BaquaGoo), can attack some spa plastic parts and might void your warranty (check with the manufacturer) and sometimes develop white water mold or pink slime (both bacterial) in the water. Biguinide/peroxide is the only other EPA approved sanitizer for home pool and spas besides chlorine or bromine based systems (including "mineral" systems such as Nature 2 and Frog, which do require the use of some chlorine or bromine).
  4. First of all, you also need to test for cyanuric acid if you are using chlorine,. This is chlorine stabilizer and dichlor (the form of chlorine you are using) adds 9 ppm cyanuric acid for every 10 ppm free chlorine added. This can quickly lead to overstabilizerd water (the chlorine is chemically bound to the stabilizer and is not available for sanittation. Strips are useless for measuring total alkalinity since they do not have the precisoin needed. The scale is too big. You need a precision of +/- 10 ppm. I would suggest in investing in a Taylor Technoligies K-2006 (FAS-DPD chlorine test method) test kit. It uses liquid reagents and is worth every penny! (Don't get the K-2005 (DPD chlorine test method), it uses a different chlorine testing method that is not as good and has several drawback. The test is is easy to use and Taylor Technologies has videos on their website explaining how to use the kit. Your low sanitizer levels might be low sanitizer or it might be bleachout of the strips because of high sanitizer. This is another drawback of strips and also of the DPD testing method. You want to keep your TA (alkalinity) between 50 to 70 ppm for best pH stability. These posts might help explain what TA is and how it works: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ IF and when you do need to raise TA don't use commercial product$ such as your Alkarise. It is nothing more than plain baking soda (sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydrogen carbonate, same thing). It's MUCH cheaper to get it at the grocery store. Finally, NEVER test pH when your sanitizer is above 10 ppm (strips or liquid reagents except for the Taylor pH reagent, which is good up to about 15 ppm sanitizer) because of an interference between high santizer and the phenol red indicator used to test pH. It will convert to chlorophenol red, which gives the same color changes at a much lower pH range which means that your test results might indicate the pH is 7.8 or even higher but in reality all we know is that it is above 6.8 (the highest pH chlorophenol red can test). Some inexpensive test kits will give wrong pH results if the sanitizer is above 3 - 5 ppm! Finally, if you are going to use chlorine, read about the dichlor bleach method, where dichlor is used to bring the cynaruic acid level to 20 -30 ppm and then switching to liquid chlorine or plain, unscented chlorine bleach (same thing, different strengths) since bleach (sodium hypochlorite) does not add cyaunric acid. Some of the informaton in these posts is either out of date or wrong but for the most part they are good guides. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23090-dichlorbleach-method-in-a-nutshell/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/13634-nitros-approach-to-water-maintaince/
  5. your spreadsheets are unavailable and without the numbers it's impossible to say what's going on. Exactly how are you testing? What digital tester are you using and what test strips? Test strips, while precise (give the same results on multiple tests on the same sample) are not really accurate (giving results that represent the actual water parameters). Post the numbers and how they were obtained, perhaps cut and paste, instead of trying to up load spreadsheets, and we can take it from there. What is your chlorine source? Are you by any chance using dichlor exclusively?
  6. I am moving your post to the Hot Tub Water Chemistry section of the forum since it is more appropriate., Where do I begin. So much misinformation. First, A spa is not a swimming pool and you cannot use swimming pool techniques to properly maintain a spa. Second, the chemistry of chlorine and bromine are very different. What works for one does not necessarily work for the other. This will be a lengthy answer as I try to explain so bear with me. I will not be answering your questions in order. Test strips are useless for water balancing. The K-2106 is specifically for bromine but you can use a K=-2006 also. First, you do not need to test CYA with bromine since it has no effect on a bromine spa, only chlorine. To test total bromine you would do the test for free chlorine and multiply the results by 2.25 to get total bromine. Done! No need to test for combined chlorine either. All other tests (pH, acid and base demand, total alkalinity and calcium hardness) are identical in both kits. The K-2005 uses a DPD colorimetric test for sanitizer. The K-2006 and K-2106 use the far superior FAS-DPD test which can test much higher sanitizer levels and is not prone to bleachout nor need sample dilutions to test high sanitizer (shock or SLAM level). Finally, the DPD test uses a comparator with shaded of red while the FAS-DPD test is a titration (drop counting test) with a color change from red to colorless. This is important since the majority of men cannot differentiate between shades of red. Don't get the k-2005. Do you have metals in your water? Are you on well water? Is your calcium hardness above 400 ppm? If so, yes. otherwise, no. In a word, no. Same with phosphate remover. You want to test free chlorine. It is also possible that the strip has beached out because of high sanitizer levels. Get a good test kit! It is possible the generator is not working or you might have a biofilm buildup. Have you purged your spa with a spa purge product such as Ahhsome no such thing, what are the actual numbers? not true, Ozone will destroy some chlorine (or bromine) but it should not cause it to read 0 ppm. something else is going on. You have a sanitizer level (chlorine or bromine) in the proper range. easy peasy They are one and the same. Almost all dichlor sold for pool spa use is dihydrate form since the anhydrous form is a class 3 oxidizer (DANGEROUS). Also, dichlor is normally 99% but it might also say 55% available chlorine. It's still the same dichlor. Why are you SLAMMING a spa? First of all, let's clear up shocking and SLAMMING. SLAMMING means to raise the FC to shock level AND KEEP IT THERE by testing and continual adding of chlorine. This is standard procedure for clearning a pool that has algae. The level of chlorine needed is dependent on the CYA level and the type of algae you are trying to kill. This was first brought to the pool and spa community by Ben Powell on his Pool Forum (where I am still a Senior Contributor) because it works. This is where the BBB method of pool care originated. It was not called SLAMMING then but was just the proper way to shock a pool to destroy algae. The term SLAM (shock level and maintain) was created on the spinpoff TFP forum (where I was one of the original moderators when the forum first started). this is because many don't understand that shock is a verb, not a noun. It is something you do , it is not a specific product. If the problem is combined chlorine over .5 ppm (1 ppm for a spa) then you just need to bring the FC to the correct shock level and that usually takes care of the problem for an outdoor pool or spa exposed to sunlight. For indoor pools and covered spas with persistent CC then other methods need to be employed. Be aware that for every 10 ppm FC added dichlor will also add 9 ppm of CYA and this can lead to an overstabilzed tub in a short time! This only applies to a chlorine tub. It is OK to use dichlor until the CYA reaches 20-30 ppm then switch to bleach, which does not add CYA. This is called the dichlor/bleach method. Bromine is a different animal combined bromine is still an efficient sanitizer, unlike combined chlorine which is why we only test total bromine in a bromine spa. However, organics do build up in the water from bather load so shocking weekly help burn them off along with volatile oxidation by products, which might have been the cause of your headaches. This is usually accomplished by adding an oxidizer (usually chlorine or MPS) to burn them off. Adding an oxidizer to a bromine system will activate the bromide bank and create bromine sanitizer. the idea is to bring the total bromine to about 12-15 ppm, leave the tub uncovered, and circulate the water until the bromine has dropped to below 10 ppm. The tub is now usable. Most people shock every week or two but it really depends on how much usage the tub gets. DIchlor is ok for this but bleach is less expensive and works just as well,. Personally, I don't like the acronym SLAM since it is for a specific issue while shocking covers more issues. says who? yes but: MPS (potassium monopersulfate) is a known sensitizer, it will make testing chlorine difficult since it tests as combined chlorine which can make you think you have a persistent CC problems when you don't (Taylor Technologies makes a add on to the K-2006 to remove this interference but it complicates testing). MPS is generally only needed in a spa or indoor pool when there is a persistent CC of .5 for a pool or 1 for a spa that chlorine will not remove. For bromine MPS will activate the bromide bank into bromine sanitizer but, as I said, it's a known sensitizer (as is bromine). It's also a lot more expensive than laundry bleach, which is the same as liquid chlorine and all most people really need. explain how? It's a chemical and an oxidizer, it is not a sanitizer unless used with silver ions (usually from silver nitrate) in HOT water (Nature 2, Frog, and other 'mineral systems' for spas. I am not a fan, btw. In a word, no. (Unless you have persistent CC as I wrote above). If you can smell chlorine then you have combined chlorine (bad chlorine) and need to shock with more chloirne to get rid of it. This is called breakpoint chlorination and is one of the reasons to shock (not SLAM) since normally, you only need to bring the FC high enough to destroy the combined chlorine (chlorine that has combined with ammonia and other organics in the water from bathers.) Depends on the salt system. Some cannot be used with sodium bromide, some can. Sodium bromide is what is also used to create your bromide bank in a normal bromide system. When an oxidizer is added it converts the bromide ions into hypobromous acid, which is your bromine sanitizer. If chlorine is your oxidizer, it doesn't matter if it comes from bleach, dichlor, cal hypo or a SWG (which makes bleach by electrolysis of salt) Bromine generators us sodium bromide directly to produce bromine sanitizer. It all depends on how the system is designed on which you can use. no, once you have established your bromide reserve in the water you oxidizer it to convert it to bromine sanitizer, When the sanitizer is consumed it converts back to bromide ions (and some non renewable bromate ions). You oxidize again to bring your sanitizer back. FWIW, bromine tabs are mostly chlorine with just a small amount of bromine to maintain the bromine reserve. So much wrong here. CC should NEVER be more than FC in a properly maintained chlorine system. If it is there is probably an algae or biofilm problem and you need to raise the FC to the proper level for the CYA and KEEP IT THERE until the problem is gone. (call it SLAMMING if you like) Bromine is a different animal entirely. You need to shock to get rig of organics in the water. Every bather adds sweat, urine and feces to the water no matter how clean they THINK they are. Even if they shower first. 5–10 mL of urine and 10–25 mg of fecal material every time they enter the water. They also sweat and sweat and urine are very similar in chemical makeup. Yes, you are wrong. How high were you shocking and with what? You want to raise your bromine to 12-15 ppm and then circulate the water with the spa uncovered until the bromine is below 10 ppm. it is then ok to enter the spa. It should not take more than a day at most and usually it's in the neighborhood of several hours. Once again, chlorine and bromine are different animals. FC is good chlorine that sanitizes and does not have a strong smell. CC is bad chlorine (chlorine that has combined with ammonia and other organics in the water ) and had a strong chlorine odor and burns the eyes. You get rid of it by shocking (raising the FC high enough to break the bonds and allow the volatile ammonia and other organics to gas off. The level of chlorine needed depends on the CYA level. The higher the CYA the higher the FC needed to achieve this (or to achieve normal sanitation for that matter). Once chlorine sanitizes it is converted to chloride ions, which are not renewable like bromide ions are. Bromine chemistry is different. You need to establish a bromide ion reserve in the water (easiest way to to add sodium bromine on each fill. You don't need a lot. You then add an oxidizer (i prefer bleach) to convert the bromide ions into bromine sanitizer. When the sanitizer is used up it converts back into bromide ions and the cycle starts again. Some of the bromine is over oxidized into bromate ions are not renewable. There are some health concerns with bromate but it's basically in drinking water and not spas. Ozone tends to speed up the formation of bromate. The cure is to make sure you are doing water changes every 3to 4 months. You said you are using bromine, there is no free chlorine. It is total bromine,. One of bromine's advantages is that combined bromine is a good sanitizer, unlink combined chlorine. This is why we only worry about Total bromine, This is also why we shock a bromine spa to get rid of organics in the water that can combine with the bromine sanitizer and produce volatile oxidation byproducts, which need to gas off. From what you said you were and it seem that you were confusing bromine and chlorine and what to do with each. They are different! should not have been necessary, For chlorine, both hydrogen peroxide and ozone can also lower FC. However, if you needed to to that you were overdosing! Period! End of story! Read these posts, they might help you: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23090-dichlorbleach-method-in-a-nutshell/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53108-some-truths-on-bleach-dosing/
  7. Please post test results on your fill water and balanced spa water. Also, is the color of the sticky stuff similar to the color of your spa filter end caps? Also, are you using chlorine, bromine, or a different sanitizer system and if you are using chlorine what type (liquid chlorine, dichlor, or chlorine tabs)?
  8. Many dealers will let you wet test the spa in the showroom.
  9. Not if you want a permanent repair.
  10. Some people will experience a rash when exposed to hot water. It is a form of hives or heat rash and if it only affecting your wife is one of the most likely explanations, the other being hot tub itch (which seems more lkely since you said it only starts occiring on "older' spa water. However, a few other things jump out at me.: Chlorine can be more aggressive with no CYA present, even though it is not a known sensitizer. (Bromine, on the other hand, is.) Try running the CYA at 20-30 ppm and FC at 3 - 5 ppm. If your CC is below .5 ppm you do not need to shock. It is rare that a properly runnign salt water system will need shocking or When do you shock shock to 12-15 ppm with sodium hypochlorite and wait unti the FC is below 10ppm before yon enter the tub. You can go as lot as 40 ppm if ph rise is too fast. Adding 30-50 ppm borate will also help stabilize pH for a longer period of time. I recommend boric acid over borax since ti had a smaller effect on pH and does not require the addition of acid at the same time. Boric acid and borax are used in vaginal supositories, bath salts and bath bombs, btw. and, while the powder is an irrirant because of it's low pH, it is not a known sensitizer. How do you know this? Have you has a bacteriological water analysis done? One word of caution, You MUST do a complete drain and refill (possbily more than one to account for water left in the plumbing) if you want to go back to chlorine after using any form of bromine or you will still have a bromine spa. possible but whether it can cause a rash is doubtful or the would be several cases documented. Hot tub flushes are chemicals designed to break up biofilm. Some contain enzymes. Some are detergent based. You can do several drains and refills with plain water after to help flush out the plumbing. Usually. If the rash only starts occurring after the water hah "aged" I would look to bacterial or protozoal causes such as pseudomonas (hot tub itch) , which some people are more sensitive to than others Chloride ions, Muiatic acid is HCL and when it neutralized something akaline it does so by donating the hydrogen ion to the OH ions in the water creating basically water and salt. When baking soda is dissolved it forms sodium ions and bicarbonate ions, which, depending on pH reach an equilibrium between bicarbonate ions and carbonic acid, which is basically carbon dioxide dissolved in water (seltzer). This post explains it a bit more: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
  11. @Ahhsomeguy, care to jump in?
  12. : https://kleanstrip.com/tutorials/learn-more-about-klean-strip-green-muriatic-acid Very first statement on page: Klean Strip® Green® Muriatic Acid is not manufactured to balance pH in swimming pools.
  13. Perhaps you need to read the name of the forum again, It's PoolSpaForum, not UseToiletBowlCleanerInMyRentalHotTubsForum.
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