Onsen

Starman, Tub volume is not the deciding factor in hydrogen peroxide needed, it is quantity of the halogen sanitizer. When I started using peroxide to neutralize the superchlorinated water, Clorox was 6%. 3% Hydrogen Peroxide appears to neutralize 6% bleach at a ratio of 1:1. So if I added 48 oz of bleach, I merely need to add 48 oz of peroxide and everything is neutralized. What I learned (and is listed in a previous post) if the above is followed, some residual peroxide may remain in the plumbing and inhibit the activation of the Sodium Bromide when it comes time to establish Bromine as the day-to-day sanitizer. I started adding "a little less" than 1:1...usually 4-6 oz less peroxide than the bleach I put in. I then check the free chlorine w/ a drop kit or test strip. The test strip should be OK in this instance, because I'm looking for presence or absence of the chlorine, not its exact concentration. I add more peroxide until I am at or below 0.5 ppm and then I feel comfortable draining the water. By not ending up with more peroxide than is needed to neutralize, I have not had a "stalled" Bromine activation when it comes time to put the tub back in service. These days, Chlorox comes in 8.25% at the grocery store. I am back to 1:1 for peroxide neutralization on the first run, then adding about 4 oz of peroxide to get down to the <= 0.5%. -Onsen

Kevin, The filter serves 2 purposes: -It removes solid particles that are greater than the pore size (hair, dust etc) to keep the water clear of those items -It protects the pump impellers, plumbing and jets from FOD (foreign object damage) such as twigs, bark chips, acorns that the &^$*& squirrels try to drop into my tub and anything else that might have gotten in there. I would recommend that you fill the tub and run it with the filters in place to ensure that anything that comes out of the plumbing doesn't get sucked back in. Skim/clean out any debris, remove the filters and start the Decon procedure with your cover on to prevent FOD from dropping in the tub during the 1 hour run or the overnight soak. If you are replacing your filters (and you should for a newly acquired tub), then leave them out for the superchlorination run. If you are not changing the filters (quarterly drain/fill) then leave them in with the chlorine to sanitize them as well. You don't need to sanitize new filters. If you follow the above and leave your cover off for the superchlorination (which you should), then your tub and plumbing is technically exposed to potential FOD during the run. I've gotten an acorn or two during that run, but they never make it past the jet pump intake screens in the footwell. The Decon procedure and superchlorination procedures work. If you are in an environmentally sensitive area (which can include your yard), the extra gouge about neutralizing the 50ppm Cl with hydrogen peroxide works. I add half the recommended amount, hit the jets and then gradually add it until I'm down to about 1-2ppm before I drain to ensure no residual peroxide when I set up the Bromine bank. Hope that clarifies your thoughts as you clarify your tub. -Matthew

Very true and most likely happened in my case. I questioned that in a different thread concerning reaction time of the bromide oxidizer. I was concerned about the efficacy of my MPS since it didn't seem to light off following the post decon fill. The other possibility was residual H2O2. Once I hit the tub with the equivalent amount of 6% Clorox to oxidize the NaBr, I got a Cl/Br reading that pegged the strip (titration kit hadn't arrived yet). The next time around, I will start with 1/2 to 2/3s the required amount of H2O2 and work up to an amount that gets the Clorox down to a trace amount. I may also want to add a "rinse" step that refills the footwell to allow the pumps run briefly and expel the water in the plumbing without cavitating due to lack of scavenge. That should allow me to be thorough without going Rube Goldberg and still be respectful of the watershed in which I reside. -Matthew

Thanks for the shred. Lots of good info. I have: CD Ozonator 13 mg/L of iron in my water Titration kit on order Sticking with Bromine for now. Will re-evaluate later. -Matthew

Chem Geek, Trying to figure out what the reaction time should be for activation of Sodium Bromide by MPS. I got the Riviera chemical pack with my spa purchase. The dry chem bottles say both are 100%. I used a food scale to measure the amounts. After completing a decontamination cycle, I wiped down and refilled my tub. Water chem (per strips...titration kit is on order) had me at 7.2 pH, 120 ppm TA, and no FC (well water) I added the NaBr, let it sink, then turned the jets on for about 10 min. I did the same for the MPS. Water temp was 59 degrees I still had no Cl/Br reading on the test strip for 2 hours, checking every 30 min. I kept the jets running to mix, but turned them off to take the reading. At that point, I assumed, per 5 minute activation time you mentioned above, that the MPS didn't react. I then added 8 oz of 6% Clorox and hit the jets again. That seemed to peg the Cl/Br reading on the strip...and its stayed up overnight. This morning, the tub reached 97 degrees and it is still up. My hope is that the churn will gas off the extra and I will return to a normal level, per the info on this site. 2 questions: 1. At what point do I assume that the NaBr-MPS reaction didn't occur? --when I did the decon run, the Cl pegged immediately (I would hope so w/ 45 oz of bleach...500 gal tub). ---It also dropped to zero with 5 or 10 minutes of jet churn following introduction of H2O2 to neutralize. 2. Why does pH seem to jump from 7.2 to 8.0 after the addition of the NaBr and the MPS? --If it is supposed to do that as a part of the activation, at what point should it drop back to normal before I correct it? -Matthew

Excellent info for decontamination, Nitro!! I was going to drain my tub to do some maintenance and possibly switch from bromine to N2. To my horror, I found some flocculation in the footwell when the pumps cycled off. Per another thread, I got some bad gouge from the dealer on using running the bromine low due to the installed CD ozonator. I've found some good water chem threads on this site that show what the ozone really does (oxidizer vice sanitizer). I reviewed Nitro's Decon procedure and followed it. It works great. As expected, my filters were well bleached. I ran 45 oz of Clorox in my 500 gal tub. I would like to see the hydrogen peroxide neutralization step added for environmental reasons. In my case, I have waterfront property, so I don't want to bleach the creek and associated vegetation and draw the ire of the Lorax or the Department of Natural Resources. I found the ratio (1:1 of 3% H2O2 to 6% Clorox) in another thread and bought enough to put 45 oz of peroxide into the tub before draining the superchlorinated water. Proof that it works: As I have a titration kit on order, but not on-hand, I have to go with my test strips. The Cl/Br color went immediately deep purple (pegged on FC) for the superchorinated water. With all the jets running, I slowly added the peroxide in the center of the tub and let the jets go for another 10 min. I plunged a second test strip in the water and did not register any FC. Also, the chlorine smell was totally gone. In addition to the ratio, I would put an advisory statement that the peroxide reduces the bleach to salt and O2. In a contained area (enclosed plumbing, etc) a violent reaction may occur. Poured into the center of an open roiling tub with the jets running, one will merely see more bubbles as the O2 comes out of solution. Currently on the refill and reestablishing my bromine tub per Waterbear's 3-step program. -Matthew

Add this to things I've learned about my hot tub: 2000 grit wet/dry sandpaper and a 3M scratch removal kit from an auto parts place will remove nail polish and restore the original gloss to an acrylic hot tub surface. A couple of months ago, I noticed during a daylight maintenance/filter cleaning session, that there were red lines on my off-white seats and footwell. After some brief anthropometric analysis, I came to the conclusion that they were made by toenails. The ones in the footwell from toes curled under and the ones on the seats & lounge from curling up or sitting on feet. With my suspects narrowed down to female soakers (sorry, no guys I know paint their toenails), I queried and found that pedicures had been done on the soak day. Apparently the polish is not fully cured and can be somewhat soft in a bromine-based tub with 101+ degree water. After trying in vain to rub the marks off with my natural fingernails, I called Jacuzzi for a tech assist. They passed me to the company that does their acrylic shell work. I was instructed to remove the marks with wet/dry sandpaper and then buff the scuffing out with rubbing compound. They also confirmed what I suspected. Nail polish remover (acetone or non-acetone) will damage the surface because it is a solvent to acrylics, including the spa surface. Mechanical removal is the only way to go. I put the above on the To-Do list. Once it came time to drain and fill my tub, I gave it a go. I bought the 3M Scratch Removal System kit (part no. 39071) and some wet/dry sandpaper from my local auto parts store. The kit contains a small 3000 grit pad, a wheel for an electric drill, rubbing compound and drill pad, polish compound and drill pad. Given that I was attempting to remove something from the surface instead of smoothing out a scratch or a gouge, I opted for a multipack of wet/dry sandpaper that ranged from 1000-2500 grit and intended to start with the finer grit and work my way back to the coarser grit, if needed. After draining and drying the interior and putting towels in the footwell and seats (so I didn't add scratches from my shoes or jeans), I used a small bit of the 2000 grit paper on a mark in the footwell to evaluate the "collateral damage" of sandpaper scuffs. The nail polish marks came off easily. The total scuff area is minimized by gently rubbing off the marks with the sandpaper around a fingernail. Also, have some masking or painter's tape handy to mark the scuffs for the rubbing compound step. I had about two dozen marks that I was cleaning up. I put the rubbing compound into a small plastic bowl that was larger than the buffing wheel diameter. My intention was to get the compound on the edge of the wheel and just work the scuff areas. I also dialed back the maximum speed on my drill to minimize splatter and keep the surface from heating up excessively. I worked each scuff with little more than the pressure from the weight of the drill. Working the rubbing compound is a lot like polishing shoes to a military standard: moving the polishing implement (rag or wheel) lightly and quickly over the area to be polished results in a higher shine. Pausing over an area and applying more pressure merely digs out the compound and ruins the work you've done to that point. After I worked the first scuff, I wiped away the remaining material with a paper bowl and could no longer tell where the scuff marks were. The rubbing compound alone restored the gloss to the surface. Since the kit came with the polish compound, I gave that a go on all the seats and footwell areas I had just worked. I wiped the tub down with a weak bleach solution and a sponge to ensure that the rubbing and polishing compounds were removed from the tub surface. My acrylic surface looked just as good as the day my tub was delivered. I imagine the same process could be used for minor scratches. I would recommend starting with fine grit and working toward a coarser paper if you are not seeing immediate results in smoothing out the scratch. Check with your spa manufacturer to ensure that your are not contravening any of their recommended procedures. I've found Jacuzzi tech assist to be quite helpful with the two minor things I've needed to address with my tub. -Matthew

Ken, I have a 2009 J-480. I've been staying in standard, which coupled with winter in Southern MD vice Hawaii, results in the pump and heat cycle running fairly constantly. I pulled up the 2006 manual from the jacuzzi website http://jacuzzihottubs.com/brochures/2006_LCD_Manual-J460-480.pdf It looks like we have the same display and function controls. I noted the following at the bottom of the 2006 addendum page: STANDARD = Mode: Indicates selected filter mode. Note: No icon means Economy mode is selected. It appears that when "standard" goes away, the tub is in economy mode. Hope that helps. -Matthew

I have a 2009 Jacuzzi J480 with their optional CD Ozonator installed. What do I need to do to maintain it/ensure it is working effectively? -Matthew

Contemplating migrating from bromine and popping my N2 cherry, but want to ensure I'm doing it correctly and safely. Before making the switch, I started googling around for gouge on the N2 system. Jacuzzi has been pushing for this (according to my dealer) to preserve the spa hardware. That, coupled with remote location driving me to mail order got me looking into the N2 alternative. Based on reading this website, it looks like I'm going to get some well informed advice that is grounded in scientific reason I'm a phan of fysics, but normally only tolerate chemistry when home brewing (must be due to HS/College course experience). Looks like I'll be adding water chemistry to the repertoire. I've had a new (unused floor model) 2009 Jacuzzi J480 since July 2011 (approx 500 gal). I was issued the Riviera brand bromine-based spa chem kit with the tub. Spa is configured with the factory Ozonator. Spa is wired for 60A configuration, which allows full function even when both jet pumps are running. Spa circulation is set for "standard" (not economy). Spa remains covered when not in use. The instructions I was given were to follow the startup instructions (on Brom-start, etc) and use Brom-Tabs sparingly since the Ozonator was designed to reduce overall chemical requirements. My house has well water, which I just checked on the issued test strips (LoMotte Insta Test3) for Free Cl/Br, alk, and pH. My tap water is 7.2-7.6 pH and 80-120ppm Alk, per the color matching (with the associated accuracy). I have been using about 1 Riviera Brom-Tab (98% Bromocholor-5, 5-dimethylhdantoin, yielding 64.9% available Br and 29% available Cl) every other week and maintaining between 1.5 and 3 ppm Br, 80ish ppm Alk, and around 7.6 pH. I have been throwing in the 3/4 oz of Potassium Peroxymonosulfate (label calls it that vice monopersulfate) about once a month. I use the "metal control" (no formulation listed) every now and then. Bathing load is 1 or 2 people about 3 times per week. Spa is outdoors in Southern MD and normally has a resting temp of 96F unless I forget to turn it down, leaving it at 101-103 (depending on outdoor night temp 20s-40s). Either way, the pump seems to run quite a bit, so the water gets a lot of circulation when not in use. The water is clear, doesn't smell, and seems to be OK. I don't see scale or corrosion on the stainless steel jet structures. Aside from the initial start-up, I haven't seen any yellow/brown stuff at the waterline. I haven't been sick since I've had the spa. Also, although a red-blooded America-jin, I turned Japanese a long time ago when it comes to spa use and insist my guests follow the primary cultural rule of furo/sento/onsen use: Shower before Soak in my sento. This has resulted in the filters and polishing bag being essentially clean. Everybody seems to enjoy the fact that the water feels and smells like water and not a chemical bath. I just ran out of the Riviera Brom-Tabs, so I ordered some Leisure Time Brom-Tabs from Amazon and compared labels upon arrival (couldn't find formulation prior to order). The Leisure Time canister states it is 60% 1Br-3Cl-5, 5-dimethylhydantoin, 27%; 1,3 dicholoro-5, dimethylhydantoin; 10.6% 1,3 dichloro-5-ethyl-5-methylhydantoin; yielding 39.2% avail Br and 44.4% avail Cl. I'm no chemist, but those two formulations aren't even close. I was under the impression from the reading I have done that Bromine is preferred over Chlorine for hot water, due to it's chemical properties. It would appear that I'm going more toward Chlorine if I use the Leisure-Time Brom Tabs and will need to use them more frequently. This brought me to pursue the N2 solution. I pulled the instructions out of the box and noted the continuous requirement for MPS or dichlor. I intend to drain, refill partially, cycle pumps, drain, and fill to ensure all bromine is out of the spa and the plumbing before I condition the water for N2 use. I've read the above posts and I'm wondering if setting up for N2 takes me to the full chlorine treatment I've seemed to avoid with the low bromine treatment I've been following for the last 6 months. Initial questions: What's changed in N2 ProClear and its associated instructions between 2008 and 2012? Aside from potential skin irritation, does the amount of MPS in the N2 instructions result in the yellow slime (it is a sulfur compound) that I've heard spa people gripe about? If I go with the dichlor option for oxidation, will the amount of dichlor result in the chlorine smell I've managed to avoid with the low-bro treatment? Although I've ordered the N2 test strips to get an MPS reading, it appears from the above that I should really go to titration and get a Taylor kit. i tried the links above, but they are dead. Some of the Amazon reviews state that the K-2006 kits are fulfilled by Amato Industries and end up being 2005s or 2000s. Which titration kit(s) do I need for current N2 maintenance and where do I find them? -Matthew