Learning Advice Please

[CFinn]

Hi all,

Happy i found this place!

New hot tub owner and having some issues.

Using the nature2 silver stick. (Not really sure I know what it does)

Added like 4 pounds of ph down getting ph and TA into high but close to normal range. Added a bottle of metal gone on start up last week.

I have had some foaming and brown sludge build up but got that under control with defoamer, cleaning filter, and shower first rule. (For now)

But the water has a slight greenish bronze color that is very unsightly.

I wanted to see what you guys think because I am getting carried away with chemical usage and don't want to end up ruining the water. I added clarifier and it didn't help at all.

Thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Ph 7.8 to 8.0

TA 80 ish

Ch low maybe 50

[CFinn]

Really could use some advice here not sure what I should do.

[dlleno]

If you are using only the N2 silver method with no suplimental sanitizer (chlorine) or MPS shock, your water contaminants can get out of control expecially with a high bather load. A new tub with those kinds of issues -- if it were me I would start over.

keep in mind the context I am assuming here is a portable spa, which I am familiar with.

I would purge with Unique Solutions "Ahh-Some" (follow the directions there). If this treatment releases a lot of material, refilll and dose again with Ahh-some. (Note--my new spa requried a two-purge treatement because it came delivered with biofilms already growing). clean your filters with a mixture of traditional degreaser and Ahh-Some. Straight degreaser alone is not enough to clean the filters -- based on my experiments. Without knowing the details of how your spa has been used, and the sanitizer treatments you have used, I would lean towards an agreesive approach that includes a chlorine decon (on the final Ahh-some purge), to insure a kill of whatever ahh-some releases.

there are many variations on this basic theme, and I might be jumping to conclusions here, but I suspect you might not have shocked with MPS often enough, or supplimented the N2 with chlorine to keep up with a high bather load.

[CFinn]

Initially I shocked with chlorine, and used mps every few days but not everytime.

Yesterday I shocked the spa and got 5ppm free chlorine. Rand pumps for 30 mintues put the lid on and rechecked chlorine 5 hours later and it was all gone.

I think I might shock it again today.

At first I thought n2 only needed chlorine at activate it on start up...

It's not harmful to shock 2 days in a row? Also should my free chlorine have disappeared that fast?

[dlleno]

a 5ppm shock 2 days in a row is not harmful at all, as that is not even a shock. What are you shocking with, that yields 5ppm FC? that's barely above safe bathing levels, (1-3ppm). Now a 100ppm shock is quite another matter -- don't be doing that every day!

The larger issue here is that your sanitizer demand is too high. If 5ppm chlorine disappears in 30 min means that there is something consuming the FC. This tells me that there are contaminants, perhaps even biofilms, in your spa, filters, or the N2 cartridge itself, that quickly consume your sanitizer. Without sunlight, ozone or lots of aeration from jets, 5ppm FC should decay down to no less than 3-4 ppm in 24 hours.

I would suggest you need to get the FC demand under control first, with a good purge/decon.

[CFinn]

Thanks again, also it does have ozone installed, and I am using dichlor sanitizing powder, would that decay the chlorine rapidly?

[dlleno]

well, first of all, dichlor is a good source of spa chlorine no question there, but your FC decay rate is too high, you've let the FC level go to zero, you've never shocked above 5ppm, you have green colored water. foaming and brown sludge, and suspected high bather contaminants/soaps and what have you. I just don't think there is any more analysis paralysis to accomplish here -- I'd say you need a purge/decon

[CFinn]

Sludge and foam are not the issue I fixed that the slight green bronze tinged water is just shocked again to see if that helps it looks a bit better

[dlleno]

Well... my point is that you didn't fix the sludge and foam problems you only hid those symptoms, although I acknowledge that there is no harm in using a "foam down" type product if you are certain that the root cause is detergents and what-not from bathing suits or whatever.

the greenish water color could be due to copper, so I would suggest if you are committed to saving (rather than purging) your water then you should consider having it tested at a trusted local pool/spa store that has metals testing capability. It could also be a contaminant. such as algae, although is really hard to make such a diagnosis without further information. If additional chlorine treatments help with the color, then you still may be only hiding that symptom too, and I would not want to be in that water, given its history.

what is your FC decay rate now, with the spa covered? By the way, if you can turn ozone off I recommend doing that for the FC decay test, as ozone eats FC (at what rate is hard to predict.. It depends on the OG and I havent experimented with mine). Still, with ozone running and the spa covered (no jets running) your FC decay rate should be no where near what you reported earlier (5ppm to zero in 5 hours. my mistake for calling out 30 min). The only way to achieve that kind of FC decay is with a contaminant load -- and if you don't have good guys (bathers) in the water that means there are bad guys in it.

YOu asked a question earlier that wasn't answered -- the N2 is a silver ion based sanitizer suppliment, which can help with water maintenance but which can NOT keep up with a bather load and is NOT EPA approved without the addition of MPS or FC. Basically, is not a bad idea, and can help keep the water clean especially when you aren't using the spa for long periods of time. BUt it is frequently mis-understood due to heavy marketing and sales. too often, folks end up trusting it and relax their water maintenance program and end up with bad/contaminated water.

ALso -- I should have asked for clarification on this point: you said you are a new spa owner but didn't specify if your spa itself was new? is this a new spa or just new to you?

[chem geek]

Ozone does react with chlorine to form chloride (salt) and chlorate. So in a chlorine spa an ozonator works best if you have a higher bather load so use the spa every day or two. If you use it infrequently, say only on weekends, then the spa can be harder to maintain due to ozone reacting with chlorine.

Nevertheless, the discussion above is about starting with a clean baseline by decontaminating. That will eliminate the possibility of having anything else creating a high chlorine demand or other problems.

[dlleno]

glad you chimed in here Chem Geek-- now I'm going to have to experiment with FC decay rates with ozone, next time I fill and before I convert to bromine.

For the FC decay test itself, though -- what can be said about the contribution of ozone to the measured FC decay over time, under otherwise ideal conditions, i.e. no bather load, spa covered, etc? how much more quickly do you think FC will decay with ozone in use, compared to without ozone? I suspect we'd have to make some broad assumptions about the ozone concentration that might be commonly achieved in todays portable spas. It would be helpful for folks with CL spas with ozone, to be able to conduct a meaningful FC decay test.

[CFinn]

Hi all thanks for the replys.

Yes the spa was new, it was manufactured 5 days before I got it. I still have no evidence of the brown oils or foam since I treated it with foam down and enzyme clear and the color has improved after second shock. You have to realize the tub is only 2.5 weeks old and has likely had only about a total of 25 hours of use.

I am going to shock again this morning and see how long chlorine will last.

[dlleno]

OK please do let us know the results of your fc decay rest. On the subject of this being a new spa.... This is exactly the issue I faced with my new spa. It was delivered with active contaminant biifims which ate sanitizer. You have to at least, at the very minimum, shock your first fill with 10ppm or higher, and it's best to combine that with an ahh some purge. Thus is just the evidence from my experience

[chem geek]

The rough rule-of-thumb is that with ozone the chlorine 24 hour loss rate in a hot spa is doubled from around 25% to 50%, but I've seen this vary depending on the strength of the ozonator and how long it runs. If it runs all the time, you can lose 70% or more of the FC over 24-hours. In a cooler spa without ozone, the loss rate drops to 15% or so. The point is that ozone will significantly increase your chlorine demand in between soaks.

On the other hand, with regular (every day or two) bather load, ozone cuts down chlorine demand by roughly half since the ozone oxidizes the bather waste before chlorine gets a chance to do so.

Every spa is different and you can decide in your own spa what makes sense.

[CFinn]

the chlorine lvl still drops out fast but the water looks great and has a chlorine smell to it. Even when it show no chlorine. I think a lot is due to the ozone

[dlleno]

All the evidence including your Cl measurements point to the fact that you are running your spa with active organic contaminants present in your equipment/pipes. Clear water is not proof positive of a contaminant -free spa. Even with Ozone running 100% of the time you should still have measureable Chlorine after dosing to 5ppm and waiting 24 hours. your decay rate is proof that you have bad guys eating up chlorine.

Honestly 2 years ago I would not have given this advice, I would strongly encourage you to purge with ahh-some.

[CFinn]

Update.

spa is still using to much chlorine I think. If I take it up to 5 ppm it is at 0.5 24 hours later. Today I removed the nature2 stick and shocked it up to roughly 20 ppm (based on bleach i added) I will check it tomorrow and report back level.

Also where is a link to the ahhsome cleaner? I think I might order some.

Also would it be a good or bad idea to use softened water on my next fill? I am on city water so no iron issues...I used city water on start up..

Any advice would be very welcomed.

[dlleno]

yes -- I would say based on the "70% decay per 24 hours with ozone running" rule that your water is consuming sanitizer at a rate that suggests you have contaminants. I haven't experimented at 20ppm, and I'll let chem geek comment on the linearity of the decay curve---- but all of that aside, I do think the evidence is in favor of doing a purge

1. Ahh-some is available from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2/177-3025741-0841332?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ahh-some . I've been through more purges than carter has little liver pills, so feel free to post back here for additional help with that.

2. the only reason to fill with softened water is to avoid tap water that is seriously wacked out. what are your tap water numbers? (TA, CA, pH...)

[CFinn]

Tap water is crazy hard ph 9 ta is way high too i added 2 pounds of ph down to get it near normal range on on fill calcium is very low though around 50 ppm and thanks for the websitr

[dlleno]

ok I should point out that 50ppm Calcium is not crazy hard by any definition, so by itself that it not a good motivation to use softened water, which will only move CA down closer to zero. But you're going to have to add CA anyway to achieve 130ppm so softened water won't be that much different. The real question is "will softened water be any better?" What are you soft (tap) water numbers? are they any more attractive than your hard (tap) water numbers? BTW you should be using a Taylor test kit for accuracy -- Note that if it really DID take TWO POUNDS of dry acid to bring pH down from 9 to 7.5, then you TA has to be like 800 Moreover, in your first post you said it took FOUR POUNDS of dry acid, and this implies that there is something seriously wrong here or you really have a small pool and not a spa lol -- how many gallons of water does your spa hold?

I'd recommend you take water samples into a nearby spa store -- take both hard and softened tap water, and ask them to test, so you can at least compare with your current test methodology. It is really best to know the starting numbers before you start over. post the numbers here.

[CFinn]

Lol yea i was looking at kg not pounds last time, I went ahead in sat in the spa for an hour it went from around ten to five ppm and that's after a shower but I also put the nature2 stick back in too I have no idea anymore..

[CFinn]

also it's not the calcium I am trying to remove my water is very low on that, but would soft water help me somehow or no?

[CFinn]

Zero ppm today ugh

[dlleno]

Yea that's not good. You've got bad guys in your water. BTW no harm in filling with softened water if the numbers are better... Just get some calcium hardness increaser

See my post on my bromine plan... For the water balance and startup

on edit: let the numbers be your guide re: filling with normal vs softened water. generally speaking I would not expect there to be a benefit -- for me, all it t does is raise pH a bit (in addition to removing CA). My fill water now is about TA=140, CA=80, pH=7.4, so I end up having to lower the TA with repeated cycles of "run jets to raise pH, then lower both pH and TA with dry acid". My softened water is TA=140, CA=0, pH=7.8, so that's just more work

in any case, you clearly have something gobbling up your Chlorine, if you really want a clean spa, here's what you do::

1. remove the N2 and throw it away (put a new one back in when you're done)

2. remove filters. soak them in a degreaser

3. dose to 50ppm FC and also Ahh-Some per label directions . this will probably open your eyes ...

4. drain, wipe down with a microfiber cloth and a separate 5 gal solution of ahh-some. hose her all down

5. fill again. dose to 20ppm FC and another dose of ahh-some

6. if the 2nd ahh-some dose released very little, continue. if the 2nd ahh-some dose released a lot, then go back to step 5.

7. When you have achieved a clean, ahh-some +CL dosed spa, wipe everything down, including the cover, with the water.

7. put your filters back into their normal positions -- make sure they are clean first

8. run the jets on low -- and watch what ahh-some releases from your filters. If the filters were clean before, only a little material will be released. keep the jets on, and wipe up the newly released material with a microfiber cloth, as it accumulates on the walls and in the filter compartment. This takes about 30 min and several wipe-rise cycles. rinse your rag in the 5 gal bucket of ah-some water.

9. you will now have the cleanest spa known to man.

10. drain and hose down again

[CFinn]

Thanks ordered some ahhsome cleaner will give it a try and see when it gets here and let u know what I find