Spa Signals Of Hh, Dr, Dy; Run/start Capacitor?

[jackstraw2]

I own a 2008 model of Balboa circuit board, Sundance spa. Circulation pump is Marathon Electric, Model 5kCP49UN9096X. Capacitor Model number is 24DB500B370PA.

I haven't had any problems with it until now, so it's been a great learning curve on figuring out how to fix it, but very interesting too. The initial symptom was that the spa would not budge from the "PR" priming code, and then would just go to a HH code, that things had heated up due to no circulation, and it shut itself off, with the spa going into EC (economy) mode. The circulation pump does not even start humming.

Thinking it might be some air, I tried some things to try and move it through. I turned off the power for a while, then turned it on, and didn't wait for the PR cycle. Instead I turned on the air jets, moved it into ST (standard) mode, and the heater would then kick on. The circulation pump would start running, and it would work fine. So it's not air.

Two things I noticed:

1-The jets run for about 5 minutes before turning off on their own. If I don't again turn them on manually, the spa gives a DY or DR signal after a while. The circulation pump just seems to quit pushing water through to the heater, as the filter stops working. However, the circulation pump is humming-- it's just not pushing water through (so I turn it all off).

2-I can keep turning it on manually every 3-4 minutes, and it works just fine. Filter works, pump works, heater works.

Something is wrong though, so I've been taking the whole thing apart, and it all looks real good inside circuit board and heating unit. Pump moves, isn't clogged.

So all of this points to the capacitor of the circulation pump. I have two pumps in this system. I am only looking at the one that's between the filter and the heat pump, not the air one on the other side. I thought I would be looking for a Start capacitor, but there is only one capacitor on this model, and it is a Run capacitor.

I have two questions:

Does the capacitor in this case serve as both a Run and Start? Given the Run works (because it still hums) I don't see how it's malfunctioning if that's the case (though it wouldn't be the first time something works beyond my comprehension). Or is there something on the circuit board (which looks great) that sends the start to the circulation pump that I am missing?I am going to order a new capacitor, as that's only $10.

What sort of testing of the system can I do without water? Or, do I have to fill the spa all up before I get to see if swapping out a new capacitor is all that is needed?

I'll update as I go along here, many thanks for any questions or help.

[brettnolan]

are you able to spin the shaft on the circ pump manually? should be a slot in the back of the motor for a screwdriver

[jackstraw2]

Yes, that spins freely, so it hasn't frozen up. I took that apart and put it back together, looks fine, little to no debris at all. I have ordered a new Run circulator to replace and see if that works or not.

[brettnolan]

I should have added this before, but if you can spin the shaft manually while it's humming, it may kick on which would tell you that it may be the start capacitor. It's fairly cheap to replace that and see what happens. If that doesn't fix the issue, you will need to replace the motor...probably bad windings.

[jackstraw2]

OK, I got the start capacitor today. It was a bit bigger, but got it all in, turned it on, and it was a go-- went from PR to the pump circulating in just a few seconds. I was so excited that I started filling up the hot tub right away. Now though, I realize I should have waited a few days. It's dropping to 0 degrees tonight, and the water only started out at 45. I did get a few signals that things are not working up to perfect condition yet. One was a SF error, where I realized that I had a drip coming out from the side of the heater pump, so I tightened that up. Then got an ICE and Sn reading.

Edit: It's heated up about 10 degrees so far, after being on about 3 hours. But it's through the cycling through onto St mode.

Edit: LF error. It looks like the second pump, the one for the air in the jets, isn't fully functioning--doesn't respond to move into higher cycle. I am guessing that some air is trapped in it.

Edit: Yes, I got the air out on the second try by loosening one of the pump nuts. It's up to 59, after about 4 hours on, so I am hoping it's all good going forward tonight.

[jackstraw2]

Latest update, the next morning: I got this message: LF, which means "Persistent low flow problems. (Displays on the 5th occurrence of "HFL" message with 24 hours). Heater is shut down, but other spa functions run normally."

I got that message after I went out to check on the spa at 4 AM. Temp was at 67 degrees. Obviously not heating. But still circulating and so it's fine in the 0 degrees weather. I push the air circulation button, the heat light comes on, and I shut the tub.

7 hours later, it's running fine, the temp is up to 94 degrees.

[brettnolan]

Can you get a model number or part # off the circuit board? I'm trying to follow the flow of everything above and nothing really sounds normal at all.

At this point, to start from scratch, I would say to make sure the spa is in standard mode with 2 filter cycles (2-4 hours each...I usually say 2hrs each but since it's so cold, 4 hour cycles won't hurt). Run the tub for 24 hrs without the filter cartridges in, or however long it takes to see if you continue to get LF or HFL or DR/DY errors.

If it heats properly with no errors without the filters in, then thoroughly clean or replace the filters.

Based on everything to this point, I think there may be other issues, but let's get through this part first and see what happens.

[jackstraw2]

Sure, from the notes I have written here on the circuit board:

Brand: Balboa

P/N 22972_E

VS 500Z

Well, it's now reverted to where I started (sort of), with the HH, DR, DY. There's an added Sn that comes up as well Yea, I'm at my wits end, so I just did this:

Turned off the power, waited a bit and turned it back on.

Put the cycle on F4, and pulled out the filter cartridge.

The temp reading says 98, however it's only 91 degrees. That may have something to do with why it is kicking over into the codes saying it's over-heating. That's what it would do before I replaced the capacitor-- would just start increasing in temp rapidly and then turn off with the HH or DR/DY errors.

We'll see what happens when the circulation filter turns on later. I seem next to be about ready to buy a new circulation pump.

[brettnolan]

Ok, if your circulation pump is not running (i.e. - "We'll see what happens when the circulation filter turns on later") you are going to get those codes because there is no water running through the heater. Heater comes on, boils the water in the tube and gives you the OHH.

Just to make sure you have the right pump (and I apologize for the detail, but I just want to cover all the bases and be as clear as possible), follow the pipe coming out of the heater until you get to a pump. It could be on either side of the heater, but it should be fairly close by. This pump is the circulation pump (filtration and heat). The other pump is the jet pump, we don't care about that one at the moment. The circulation pump could also be a jet pump if it has 2 speeds.

When the breaker has been off, and you first turn on the spa, the topside control should go through about 4 different codes/numbers before it reaches "PR." This is priming mode and in most cases, NOTHING should happen for about 4 minutes, unless you push a button. After 4 minutes, the circulation pump should come on in LOW speed (or whatever if it's single speed). If this is not happening, it is possible that 1)a dip switch is not set correctly on the circuit board, 2)the circ pump is plugged the wrong place on the circuit board, 3)there is a bad relay on the circuit board (low speed probably), 4) low speed is out on your circ pump (assuming it's a 2 speed pump), or 5)something else has gone wrong with the circuit board.

Go here first:

http://www.balboawatergroup.com/Technical-Data-Sheets#

[brettnolan]

Cut off my post...here's the rest

Find the pdf that matches your spa pack, make sure everything is connected in the right place and all the dip switches are set correctly.

Also, you should make sure that voltage coming into the tub is correct, although if your 240v pumps are working, it is probably ok. Before you run to get a new circ pump (motor), make sure the board is sending the proper voltage to that pump. If you can get a volt meter to the back of the motor, that would probably be the easiest way to explain how to check it, but I can try to explain another way to check it on the board itself if you can't.

Pics might be helpful if you can get them.

[jackstraw2]

After the night, it was on HH when I got up this am, so no change.

Yes, I have two pumps. There is a jet pump that goes off the other way from the heat pump, and I've not had any problems with it.

If I turn it off at the breaker, then back on: after 4 minutes of PR, the low speed circulation pump turns on, and there is a temp reading of 76. The heating light turns on. The DY signal comes on and the heat light turns off. It tries it again after some time, for a DR and then HH signal.

So, " After 4 minutes, the circulation pump should come on in LOW speed (or whatever if it's single speed). If this is not happening.."

That does happen, ever since I replaced the capacitor, the low speed circulation pump is going on. It just appears to still not be pushing any water through to the heater.

[brettnolan]

Ok, so if the circ pump is on, BY ITSELF, and no water is coming out of any jet or return fitting in the spa, and you are POSITIVE there is no air lock, then you must have a broken impeller or something stuck in the impeller or something stuck in one of the lines...probably the suction line.

Oh, you could also have a slice valve closed, on either side of pump plumbing. In fact, they may APPEAR to be open (the handle is up) but the gate may have detached from the handle.

Bleed off any air in the pump first. If that doesn't work, I would suggest removing the pump and taking off the faceplate from the wet end to inspect your impeller. If there is something stuck in it you may be able to see it before you take off the faceplate.

Generally with a probably as bad as this seems to be, a broken impeller should be immediately apparent. They usually make a great noise when they are broken, but not always.

[jackstraw2]

The slice valves appear to all be working fine. I have three of them, and tested them all. With the circulation pump on low, I was able to determine that there is in fact flow going through the heat pump. I took the pump apart again today, finding nothing wrong. I tried to bring myself to purchase an entire new pump today, just to see if there is something going on (as that is where the original problem was). I do have a small leak from taking off the pump's wet end panel; need to replace a liner.

So I am pretty much left to conclude that there is a malfunctioning with the circuit board.

[brettnolan]

I tend to agree with you, HOWEVER...

just to be clear...I believe this pump is a 2 sp pump 3.0/4.0HP. You said you have determined there is flow, so if you put that into high speed there should be NO DOUBT that there is flow. And honestly, that size pump even in low speed should leave no doubt. Water should CLEARLY be returning to the spa.

Therefore, that being the case, before you spring for the board, I think it would be worth the service call to have a repair tech come out and take a look, just to make sure there isn't something we missed. Not having my own eyes and ears on site is quite a disadvantage to me.

And, I know you were probably really hoping to save money by checking out the internet first, so once you know for certain that it is the board, you can probably (though not necessarily) find the board on the internet cheaper than through a dealer. However, you have to be very careful to get the right one or you could run into other issues and a lot of times it is not a fun (or economical) thing to send a part back just because it wasn't the right one. They will want to say that YOU did something wrong and void the warranty, etc.

So, again, I would recommend having a spa tech look, just to be sure. Do the best you can to find a reputable and reasonable one in your area. My company charges $85 per hour for a service call, but we are expensive, I know. And it may be much cheaper in your part of the country.

[brettnolan]

A nugget I missed...

You mentioned the misreading of the water temp and rapidly increase in temp then shutting off. That could have been because water wasn't moving, in which case you would be able to hear the water boil in the heater.

It could be bad sensors, although this is fairly uncommon.

And then finally the board, not reading the sensors correctly and/or sending voltage to heater when it's not supposed to. So again, I think I would get someone to look at so you don't go throwing money around.

[jackstraw2]

The SAGA continues....

SO my brand new pump arrived. I put it all in, after a bit of finagling it all fit right, fill it up a bit, and the pump doesn't leak. Fantastic.

I come back ten minutes later while it's filling up, and water is leaking everywhere, but not from the pump, or anything visible.

Dang, all I can think of is that the recent very cold weather froze and broke one of the PVC pipes which had a bit of remaining water. So I am on to this project now...

I don't know if the "seal-a-leak" is going to work. The water comes out basically as fast as the hose puts it in. The water level does not rise above the intake jets at the base of the spa.

[jackstraw2]

Yep, it's the manifold. At the dead-end side. It looks like that's tilted down, so the water gathered in there. It's beyond hope of repair-- huge split that wraps around it. Has 20 ports on it, anyone know who sells these online?

[CdnTubber]

Damn....I was eagerly reading your story here as I think I am going through the exact same thing. For a while now my tub was giving the OH alarm. I could usually reset it after a few minutes and ultimately found that if I kept my tub at 101F then it was fine. That was was good until the other night when I discovered that my tub had shut down on the OH again but it wouldn't reset. Both jet lights were on and there was a intermittant humming coming from the jet area. I opened the panel and found there was a burned smell but I couldn't tell for sure from what part. At this point the circ pump will try to go on and will hum but then nothing. Shortly after the jet pump tries to go on with a louder buzz but nothing. Ultimately my tub is cooling by the hour and I'm not sure what to do about it. If its a capacitor, then it should be no problem. Circ pump or jet pump...more of a problem but not easy. Control board...yikes.

I was really hoping your story had an end but not yet.

[jackstraw2]

No ending yet I am contemplating what the next action will be, as far as getting access to the manifold (hot tub is submerged into deck on three sides) and finding a replacement or repairing it. And waiting for a bit of warmer weather.

I did not encounter any smell going on, and inspected the circuit board entirely and couldn't see anything at all gone bad.

When I replaced the capacitor, it worked (partially), but then ultimately failed again. So I am guessing that the circulation pump motor is turning off-- has gone bad but still works intermittently (and better for a time with a new capacitor).

Hopefully it is not turning off because of something on the circuit board, but I will have to fix this other manifold problem before I return to that one... interesting winter of working on the hot tub.

[jackstraw2]

I found the part, it's a whopping $5.85 for a 4 port dead-end manifold. Just have to cut off the existing, glue on the new, and it's replaced where it has split. I will tackle it with some help getting the tub out of it's space in a few weeks.

[jackstraw2]

This friggin saga continues on... I finally got the spa out, it's enclosed into the deck on all four sides. Not just the dead-end manifold, but the whole thing pretty much split all the way. Figured out I needed to get a few more 4 ports, glue them all together, after cutting the hoses off. Finished one side, pushed it in, started it up, and the other side is leaking! Pulled it back out, found the pvc pipe leading into the other side's manifold also had a leak. Didn't see any leaks in the manifold. Replaced the PVC, filled it up, still leaking-- the back of this side's manifold. Had to replace the whole 27 manifold system, just like the other side. A many hours job. Pushed it back in. Wow, it's working. But, the other pump (not the one I have replaced) has air I can tell. I try to pump it out... what to do next. I turn one the release valve plugs and it works, the air escapes and the pumps all are working. Then, I notice the a leak next to the plug. ****. It didn't turn, but cracked. The top broke right off when I tried to then tighten it.

Probably costs $3 to replace this part. Another $150 for labor to pull it out. Ugh.

[jackstraw2]

Uh, yes, this ended well I wound up just sealing up the release valve that was broken with glue. Got it running and just released the air with at the pump entry instead. Working great now for the winter.