Newbie In Need Of An Energy Efficient Spa For Cold/snow

[Lips Malloy]

I am in the process of designing a larger deck for my house in Mammoth Lakes, and want to incorporate a recessed or semi-recessed spa. I need a spa that can handle high altitude, extreme cold and lots of snow in winter. I want a spa that retains heat well, and I was looking at Arctic. However, I found another brand that uses a similar heat retaining design that is much, much cheaper with more bells and whistles. The problem is, I cannot find any reference to this brand on this forum, nor any customer reviews online. The warranty and service guarantee is spectacular. I can afford a Covana and a bigger spa/more bells and whistles for the cost of an Arctic. Just wondering if anyone has heard of this brand. This is what I am looking at: https://www.integrit...oBay%5FTV%5FSPA

They only sell online and offer free shipping. Almost sounds too good to be true. I know. Don't say it.

Opinions? Suggestions?

[PreservedSwine]

Never heard of them

[Dr. Spa]

Look up their address on Google maps.

The ownership of their URL (website), is intentionally hidden

I believe these are made in China, and are not UL or ELT listed as required by most municipalities in order to be legally installed.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Look up their address on Google maps.

The ownership of their URL (website), is intentionally hidden

I believe these are made in China, and are not UL or ELT listed as required by most municipalities in order to be legally installed.

I'm not sure why I even spent a couple minutes looking them up. Are you really thinking of sending a check to someone based on a picture of a spa and some hallow claims?

60% more efficient than foam filled spas? Its easy to type up such claims but not only won’t it be true, its won’t be close to being true. Only one way to find out.

State of the Art Programmable Electronic Controls and Advanced Technology Microprocessor? More like off the shelf and I'm guessing nothing special or worse.

Our engineers have optimized…? Engineers, plural, c’mon 1 is hard enough to believe?

Handmade by skilled technicians? I’ll bet its the same guy as referenced above.

Buy it if you want but don’t think you’ve stumbled upon something special. There is no reason to believe they’re any different than any of the other anonymous on-line spa sellers. Good luck if you have issues.

[Dr. Spa]

State of the Art Programmable Electronic Controls and Advanced Technology Microprocessor? More like off the shelf and I'm guessing nothing special or worse.

The controls pictured on their site are basic ACC brand controls. Some of the Chinese manufactures think (or are trying to FOOL people into thinking) they can bypass the UL laws by installing a controller that's UL listed. This is simply an incorrect assumption on their part. to meet UL standards, required by most municipalities, the entire spa, the spa as a whole, need to be listed.

[Spa_Guru]

I think they look great, just like a $20 Rolex does.

[n1oty]

I spent five minutes rolling around on the floor having a severe laughing spell.

John

[Lips Malloy]

Well, I knew you guys would make fun of me. I know next to nothing about spas, as my topic indicates, but I have been doing a lot of research. I did call the company, and the guy on the phone spent a lot of time giving me informatioon, and he e-mailed me a copy of the warranty, some photos with the water features/led lights and water actually in the spa, the operating manual for the controller, and a list of customer feedback, and offered to give me phone numbers of customers in my general area that would give me direct feedback. After looking at all this, the warranty in particular was troublesome, as it depreciates the amount covered based on how long you've owned the tub. For instance:

Spa Structural Warranty

Integrity Spas warrants the spa shell structure against the loss of water though the fiberglass laminate of

the shell caused by defects in materials and workmanship for a period of 10 years from the date of

purchase, based on the following formula: Retail cost divided by months covered (120), multiplied by

months owned = replacement cost. Contact the manufacturer if you have any questions concerning

warranty issues.

The other thing that has me less excited about this bargain are the detailed photos he sent - it looks cheap.

So, although I had success buying a whirlpool bathtub sight unseen over the internet for a great price (half of what others charged), with airbath and colored leds, that has worked out beautifully in my whole house remodel of my second home, I am definitely reconsidering this idea. For one thing, I asked about the UL listing, and he said the only thing that needed a UL listing was the controller, which is approved. Whoever mentioned this upthread, thanks, because I sure as hell can't deal with either fire or electrocution. This post is kinda long, so I am going to post another with details on two Sundance models I would like opinions on.

[Dr. Spa]

That's called a "prorated warranty".

[Lips Malloy]

OK, so this post is about what I assume is an approved (by this crowd) spa manufacturer. The local spa dealer in Mammoth Lakes carries only Sundance. I looked at the models and liked two; the Optima (880 series) and the Constance (Select Series). As has been my problem all along, I like certain features of both but can never find a model that has everything I want. On the Optima, I like the larger seating capacity and the air jets/aromatherapy, and the Constance has the flat top look similar to the Jacuzzi LXL or whatever it's called that I like, sconces around the perimeter, and is more energy efficient.

Here is the dealer's quote:

Option 1 – Sundance “Optima” 880 series - approx. total $13,417.92 (without crane cost/labor)

Spa $10,780.00 (this reflects a $1,000.00 discount off the sale price, MSRP $14,670.00)

Stereo upgrade $1,049.00 (MSRP $1,380)

Eco Seal Cold Weather Package Upgrade $299.00 (MSRP $345.00)

Tax $939.92

Ship $350.00

Crane $400.00 (2 hr. min @ $200 per hour)

Crane labor $380.00 (4 guys 1 hr each @ $95.00)

Option 2 – Sundance “Constance” SELECT series - approx. total $11.467.64 (with out crane cost/labor)

Spa $8,970.00 (this reflects a $1,000.00 discount off the sale price, MSRP $11,6660)

Stereo upgrade $1,049.00 (MSRP $1,380)

Eco Seal Cold Weather Package Upgrade $299.00 (MSRP $345.00)

Tax $799.64

Ship $350.00

Crane $400.00 (2 hr. min @ $200 per hour)

Crane labor $380.00 (4 guys 1 hr each @ $95.00)

My questions to the gang here:

1) Any experience with either model? Which would you choose if either?

2) How does the pricing sound to you?

3) Does it really require a crane? The access to the site is good, and the tub will be set on a structural subdeck as it will be recessed. The deck itself will be about 8-10 feet off the ground (the house is on a hill, and the deck will jut out over the downslope)

I plan to use a Covana instead of the cover either comes with, and btw, Covana just told me they are coming out with matching powder coated paint on the posts instead of the ugly aluminum (in July, so yay, good timing there), so I'm hoping they will give a little discount for no cover.

I hate the idea of paying close to a grand for tax, which is why I like buying over the internet ;-). I'm not good at bargaining, but in your esteemed opinions, is there any room for negotiation, or is this already a good price?

Oh, another question, with the ClearRay, does that mean I don't have to add chemicals? I know the Arctic offers a salt water system, which I had in my pool and liked til it stopped working. In any case, I plan to hire a spa guy to deal with maintenance as I am not there on a regular basis.

I guess I have one last question. Given the type of spa I want (one with seating for 6-7, no lounge, energy efficient, preferably air jets, color leds, waterfall, stereo, good for cold weather), is there anything less expensive out there? The Covana is about $5k, the deck will be about $30k plus architect fees, I'm putting in a $15k roof, a gated fence/dog run tied to the new deck, and I just spent a year and $100k doing a total remodel/upgrades after major (62,000 gallons) water damage, not including what the insurance reimbursed, all for my little cabin in the woods. If I'm going to do something, I do it top notch, but if I can get a better price for a quality spa, I would be much happier. I suppose buying from the local dealer would give me some leverage on negotiation, given they would be servicing, etc.

[hjames710]

62,000 gallons? Holy crap! Did a whole river drain through your cabin?

Skip the stereo, they fail often, if you notice, their warranty is typically 6 months- 1 year, that's because they break so easily. Almost everyone here will tell you to mount some nice outdoor speakers near the spa instead.

I mounted a pair of Polk Audio's near my tub, and am much happier with them than I was with the Bose I had mounted onto my old house. The Bose's sound started to deteriorate after a few years, and were not worth the money I paid for them, just like the Bose system in my car, which I almost immediately ripped out and replaced with Infinity's. In fact, the $40 Dynex Indoor/Outdoor Speakers from Best Buy (My original outdoor set, before the Bose), in my opinion, sounded better.

[Lips Malloy]

Yeah, hard to believe, from one little plastic part connecting the water supply to the upstairs toilet. It ran for perhaps 2 weeks. Total nightmare, as I had expensive European antique furniture and antique Scandinavian oil paintings, etc. Luckily I was able to restore everything, and since the house was down to floorboards and walls had to be torn out, I decided to upgrade during the remodel. It was worth it - huge improvement on the tiny bathrooms and the kitchen especially. A friend usually checks on the place for me, but it was around the holidays and she was really hectic.

I'm sure the outdoor stereo system is better, but I can't leave stuff out, as it is a second home and not often attended, and it is more for convenience as well as for an added feature for occasional renters and guests. Come to think of it, I probably shouldn't have any sound system, because it is a really quiet neighborhood. Plus, in at least a few cases, the stereo controls are so far down the side of the tub that unless they can relocate it, it would not work because the tub will be semi-recessed.

My head is swimming from all the choices in spas. It is not clear to me whether I have to buy from a nearby dealer or if I can order over the internet or something and just have it shipped. I've read SO many threads here, but it almost confuses me more. I've added the Marquis E-series 750, the Jacuzzi J-365 and the D1 Nautique to the list of prospects, but the only dealer in Mammoth sells only Sundance, so I'm not sure if that is (or should be) my only option, brand-wise.

I am so worn out from spending a year+ on the remodel, dealing with art restoration specialists, furniture restoration specialists, the insurance, the contractor, and picking out every last detail on a full remodel, researching endlessly for the best at the best price, trying to find what would fit in the tiny bathrooms, etc., that the thought of doing it all over again (albeit on a smaller scale) is exhausting. The end result though, is worth it. The house transformed from quirky charm to exquisite, and now the deck needs to be redone and expanded to maximize living space and market value. The back deck is my favorite place to be, even in a blizzard, sitting amongst my little forest of trees, and the deck will jut out into the trees and the spa will be there and my kids will be in it instead of on their laptops and all will be divine.

[hjames710]

Go with a Sundance, you want a local dealer that can be there to support you when you need it. Sundance makes a great Spa, and you will be pleased with your purchase, I personally do not own a Sundance, but I have relatives that do, and love it. They have had zero problems with it, and it's going on ten years old I think?

Unless it's in a bad neighborhood, I would think you'd be fine with outdoor speakers, Mine are mounted higher than anyone can reach without a ladder, but I guess I live in the 'burbs, so I don't really have to worry. You could always do the $40 Dynex's, and if something happens to them, you wouldn't be out too much money. Just an idea I suppose.

[spawn]

Lips - I am a consumer, not a dealer, and tend to spend a lot of effort trying to find a good value when I buy something. There is more to value than just the bottom line. I think in your case I would call the local spa dealer and buy an Optima.

I assume that there are no other dealers of quality spas nearby. I think for you a quality spa and quality dealer are especially important since you are not always on the scene. With the difficult install, you want a spa that will last a long time, have minimal problems and when a problem does arise - whcih is pretty much inevitable if you keep it many years, you want someone who can take care of it for you.

You have been through a lot of hassle and have the means to get a good tub. Don't waste your energy and time trying to nickle and dime this and worst of all end up with a mystery spa that seems to have same or better specs for less $. Buying a spa can be confusing but you can keep it simple - you have a top quality spa available at a price that seems in line with what I have seen elsewhere.

You may be able to get some movement on price. It costs dealers less to give you something than to lower price. For example, that $300 cold weather package doesn't cost the dealer $300 - maybe you can get him to throw it in to close the deal. Or maybe he can work with you a bit on the install / crane. You need to stop worrying and start soaking.

And don't waste your $ on a stereo. That $1000 would buy you a much nicer system, but I wouldn't even do that. If you must have music outdoors get a glorifed boombox. Just for a bit of cred, I am a guy with a $15,000 audio system in my house. I love music, but when I am outside, especially at a cabin in the woods, it is kinda nice to be away from it. I'll admit,I do set up a little music system outside from time to time. We just connect an ipod or portable CD player to a keyboard amplifier that I just happen to have and it does the trcik. My buddy occassionaly sets up a boombox at his place when he and his wife sit outdoors by the fire. Some love their tub stereos but in my opinion they are poor sounding, overpriced and short lived.

[DustyBill54]

^{I have 30 years of construction experience and can push tub control buttons with the best of them should you ever need a house sitter. Good Luck with your selection!}

[Lips Malloy]

Thank you two. You have been SO much help. Yesterday I was swimming in choices, and today I've decided to go with the Optima and the local dealer, which helps the local economy. And I've decided not to get the sound system, and will look into a wireless indoor/outdoor system. I will certainly bargain down some, as a shipping charge of $350 when the dealer is only a mile or so away seems silly, and perhaps he will also throw in the cold wrap. He's already said he'll take off $250 for the cover, since I will be using the Covana.

The Covana is a key purchase for me because a) I dislocated my shoulder and it easily redislocates; I can't see trying to get a cover off with a ton of snow or shoveling snow off it to use it; c) I like that there is no cover in the way of the deck; d) it will keep pine needles, etc. from falling into the tub, as it will be situated slightly under some trees; and e) the shades will provide windscreen as well as privacy.

One thing I just noticed in looking at the Optima is that the controls are opposite the two main seats, i.e. the ones with the most jets, and I would probably want those facing out into the back forest (there's forest on 3 sides). Will this be a problem, having the controls at the far end? I presume that's where the main access panel is, so maybe it's not such a bad thing.

I have a question aboout the temp. I can't handle super hot water, so what's the lowest i can set the temp, or does it matter?

[Lips Malloy]

^{I have 30 years of construction experience and can push tub control buttons with the best of them should you ever need a house sitter. Good Luck with your selection!}

Well Dusty, contractors are ALWAYS welcome to stay at my house! I actually hate when it sits empty.

[hjames710]

Typically, you can set the Temp as low as you want. I typically keep mine at 97-100, during the summer, and about 102-103 during the winter. I know my controls (Balboa) let me take it down pretty low.

[arches2]

sundance min temp is 80 F.

[Lips Malloy]

Thanks; good to know. I presume I would also be saving on heating costs by keeping it at a lower temp? Does that give me problems with sanitation, i.e. not killing bacteria, etc. due to the lower temp? I really can't handle high heat. Or cold water. 80-90 is good for me.

[spawn]

Thank you two. You have been SO much help. Yesterday I was swimming in choices, and today I've decided to go with the Optima and the local dealer, which helps the local economy. And I've decided not to get the sound system, and will look into a wireless indoor/outdoor system. I will certainly bargain down some, as a shipping charge of $350 when the dealer is only a mile or so away seems silly, and perhaps he will also throw in the cold wrap. He's already said he'll take off $250 for the cover, since I will be using the Covana.

Good move Lips - you won't be disappointed. The Optima is a great tub and I think that you will be much happier with a separate sound system.

[Lips Malloy]

Thanks Spawn. I have a few questions about spa maintenance (mainly the water chemistry) when it is a second home and not used that much. Also, with the ClearRay system, I'm wondering how much you have to deal with it. I'm concerned after reading how everyone else is checking their water daily, adding stuff daily, etc. I'm not there that much. If I am lucky I get to go up once, maybe twice a month, if that. Generally much less, especially when the kids are in school, though over the past year I was going up a lot to deal with the remodel. I plan to have a spa maintenance guy, but I can't see him going by everyday to check on the water chemistry. Those guys usually come once a week.

How would some of the spa gurus/experienced spa owners handle maintenance, based on this general usage:

Jan-Mar/Apr, winter tenant, weekend warriors that only go up every other week generally, just for the weekend, and maybe one week over spring break

May - Memorial weekend

June - week once school's out

Jul-Aug - a few weekends, generally another week's vacation before school starts

Sept-Oct - just the Labor Day weekend

Nov - week or less at Thanksgiving

Dec - week between Christmas and New Year's

Here and there I have friends stay for a long weekend, and sometimes donate for a week or weekend.

Can I keep the temp down low until I use it? I think someone said 80 degrees is the minimum. I would not winterize or summerize, as it will be used during both, off and on.

I was going to start another post about this and about water chemistry, but maybe someone will comment here. I looked at the water chemistry forum, and it is all Greek to me. I don't know what all the abbreviations are, I don't know what a spa frog is, and I looked for a good book on how to deal with water chemistry but haven't found one. I did find a relatively useful guide here:

http://spababes.com/spacareguide.html

Does anyone recommend a book or a link to a spa care guide dealing with water chemistry, one that explains all the abbreviations, etc.?

I'm a single mom, and I would be dealing with any problems (and even if I was still married, I'd be dealing with it on my own ), so simple non-technical explanations work best. I am a complete spa neophyte.

[spawn]

Thanks Spawn. I have a few questions about spa maintenance (mainly the water chemistry) when it is a second home and not used that much. Also, with the ClearRay system, I'm wondering how much you have to deal with it. I'm concerned after reading how everyone else is checking their water daily, adding stuff daily, etc. I'm not there that much. If I am lucky I get to go up once, maybe twice a month, if that. Generally much less, especially when the kids are in school, though over the past year I was going up a lot to deal with the remodel. I plan to have a spa maintenance guy, but I can't see him going by everyday to check on the water chemistry. Those guys usually come once a week.

How would some of the spa gurus/experienced spa owners handle maintenance, based on this general usage:

Jan-Mar/Apr, winter tenant, weekend warriors that only go up every other week generally, just for the weekend, and maybe one week over spring break

May - Memorial weekend

June - week once school's out

Jul-Aug - a few weekends, generally another week's vacation before school starts

Sept-Oct - just the Labor Day weekend

Nov - week or less at Thanksgiving

Dec - week between Christmas and New Year's

Here and there I have friends stay for a long weekend, and sometimes donate for a week or weekend.

Can I keep the temp down low until I use it? I think someone said 80 degrees is the minimum. I would not winterize or summerize, as it will be used during both, off and on.

I was going to start another post about this and about water chemistry, but maybe someone will comment here. I looked at the water chemistry forum, and it is all Greek to me. I don't know what all the abbreviations are, I don't know what a spa frog is, and I looked for a good book on how to deal with water chemistry but haven't found one. I did find a relatively useful guide here:

http://spababes.com/spacareguide.html

Does anyone recommend a book or a link to a spa care guide dealing with water chemistry, one that explains all the abbreviations, etc.?

I'm a single mom, and I would be dealing with any problems (and even if I was still married, I'd be dealing with it on my own ), so simple non-technical explanations work best. I am a complete spa neophyte.

Lips - First let me say that I am relieved to learn that you are a woman, although I suspected that this was the case. For a guy to be calling himself Lips I would hope that he is a heck of a horn player.

I am not the best one to give advice regarding water maintnenace as your situation is far different than mine and the dichlor / bleach method that I use would probably not be the best for you. If you have not already done so, post in the water chemistry section and you will get good advice for your particular situation. Don't worry about not understanding the Greek, they can explain matters in plain English. Check in with your dealer too, but it might not be a bad idea to get feedback on his advice here. Most dealers are knowledgable and helpful but there are some that don't seem to understand water chemistry as well as one would expect and then there may be an occassional one just trying to sell chems but I personally have not run into any and believe that they would not last long in the business.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I'm concerned after reading how everyone else is checking their water daily, adding stuff daily, etc.

Who is checking anything daily? You won't need to do that. One simple method many subscribe to is to add some sanitizer after each use (like 1 teaspoon per person upon exiting the spa), check you ph/alk weekly (or bi-weekly once you get the hang of it) and clean the filters every month or so.

I know the idea of water care may seem to be a daunting task when you are new to it but you’ll get the hang of it in no time and in a short amount of time you'll see it requires very little time or effort.

[hjames710]

+1 The biggest thing is when you remember the amount of drops that needs to go in and such, and don't have to rely on the little instruction booklet. I test my PH and Chlorine level in like 30 seconds now.