Yellowish-brown Staining On Steps, Skimmers, Etc.

[tenecia]

After taking the cover off my pool last week to find beautiful sparkling clear water. I took my sample to the pool store and they told me to put 50lbs sodium bicarb, a balance pak, and 3 bags of shock in my pool over a period of about 6 hours and that everything would be perfect. By the next day, we had a huge mess. Our fiberglass steps (once white) are now yellowish brown, along with the skimmers and everything else that should be white. Took another sample and she said no copper or iron was in the water. Possibly manganese???? We tried Revive, with no help. I am a new pool owner and am about to go insane trying to get this corrected. Now there is a brown film across the bottom of the pool liner, which will come up with vacuuming, but I want my steps back white. Any advice????

[chem geek]

It sounds like you were told to add BioGuard Balance Pak 100 which is sodium bicarbonate (same as baking soda). By any chance, was the shock BioGuard Smart Shock? If so, then this is Dichlor which adds both CYA and chlorine, but also has copper in it.

An excess of sodium bicarbonate make your water cloudy and the shock with copper can turn it green. You are seeing yellowish-brown which is usually associated with iron, but the higher pH from what you added could have precipitated that out. They say that you have no copper or iron in the pool, but do you trust your pool store at this point?

If the stains are truly metal, then the way to remove them (other than vacuum to waste for the "easy" stains on the vinyl) is to first add a sequestrant to the water and then to use ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) on the stain (for up to an hour). However, it is necessary to have the chlorine level very low or near zero and to turn off the pump while this is done since chlorine will react with ascorbic acid.

[waterbear]

If the iron had precipitated out of the water as stain then you would test negative for metal. Try holding a vitamin c tablet on the stain. If it disappears in about 15-30 seconds where the tablet is you can easily remove the stain with ascorbic acid powder. Post your results with the vitamin c tablet and if it removed the stain I will post the procedure for you.

[ScottGTP]

I am having a similar problem. I tried the Vitamin C tablet test and the small section of the stairs turned white. So, what do I need to do to whiten up the rest of the stairs and other areas of the pool?

[waterbear]

You need ascorbic acid powder (pure vitamin C powder). You can buy it under brand names in the pool supply like Natural Chemistry's Stain Free or you can search on the internet for a supplier of ascorbic acid powder (much less expensive).(You can also use oxalic acid powder, which is the ingredient in many pool stain removers but it is toxic compared to ascorbic acid). Here is the procedure:

1) drop your free chlorine to below 2 ppm (don't add any chlorine for a few days to a week to achieve this or use a chlorine neutailizer (sodium thiosulfate). Then lower the pH to about 7.4 if it is higher than that.

2) Add 1/2-1 lb of ascorbic acid per 10000 gallons of water, don't overdose or you will create a bad chlorine demand. I would start with the lower dose and if the staining doesn't all go away then I would add more after about 25 hours. Just sprinke it into the water all around the pool, concentrating on the worse areaes. Run pump for the next 24-48 hours. All the staining (or most of it at any rate) should be gone.

3) After about 1 hours add a double dose of metal sequesterant. (you want the treatment dosage, not the maintenance dosage) I personally have had good luck with Proteam's Metal Magic and Jack's Magic Pink Stuff (for iron). Continue to filter. The pool might get cloudy, don't worry, it will clear. Next add a dose of Polyquat 60 algaecide (Make sure it's polyquat and not linear quats or copper! Look for the ingredient poly [oxyethylene (dimethyliminio) ethylene (dimethyliminio) ethylene dichloride] on the label. If it doesn't say that it's not polyquat. This will help prevent an algae bloom while your chlorine is low (and it will be for a week or two!)

4) Now here is the tricky part, if you do not want the stains to reappear you have to raise your chlorine levels slowly over a period of days (and the ascorbic acid creates a huge chlorine demand so any chlorine you put in gets used up burning off the ascorbic acid.) I would use liquid chlorine and add enough each evening to raise the free chlorine 2 ppm. Pour it into the skimmer so it can cause the metals in solution to stain your filter instead of the pool again.

Check your chlorine levels each morning. At first you will find that the chlornine is not holding and is gone each day but after a few days to a week the chlorine will start to hold and will rise to normal levels (usually 3-5 ppm). Once the chlorine is holding and has reached normal levels rebalance the TA and pH if needed and you can start swimming again.

5) remember to add a maintenance dose ( usually just a few ounces) of sequesterant every two weeks to every month and keep tabs on your pH and don't let it rise above 7.6 or you will create conditons for the stains to return. If the stains start to return and you catch them fast you can often make them disappear if you drop the pH to about 7.0 and add another treatment dose of sequesterant

[CrazyPoolMom]

As closely as I could, I have followed the advise of Waterbear, yesterday I put Bioguard Stain Remover into the water, I could not get pure absorbic acid, but I am thinking that it just might be pure absorbic acid because it does not say, and I had to use hth Metal Control, double dose, it's HEDP based. This AM, I dropped the PH and slowly began adding clorox bleach because I was not able to get the Polyquat 60 algaecide, and was afraid to even try to substitute for it. But I figured a little chlorine would help as long as I did not get staining, and I have not. I have only added a cup of bleach at a time with the PH at 7.0, once it was 6.8 even.

All I have for now is a test strip kit that measures free chlorine, it says 0, and the deluxe hth test kit with drops, the hth total chlorine test is showing between .5 and 1. So I do not know if that means that all of the chlorine that I have is combined or if the test strip is just wrong, or what. The test strip is pretty close on everything else that I have used the hth drop kit on. Of course both could be wrong. I have a Taylor 2006 test kit ordered. The PH is currently at 7.2 and I am watching that like a hawk.

The water is absolutely BEAUTIFUL. Stains are gone, everything is Sparkling crystal blue. I have filtered like crazy and keep washing out the paper filter. My test results are showing

CYA 0

Free Chlorine 0

TC .5-1

TH 330

TA 120

PH 7.2

[waterbear]

Bioguard Stain Remover is not ascorbic acid. It is a proprietary mixture that is corrosive and contains sulfamic acid, a descaling agent. I could not find out any more about it.

[CrazyPoolMom]

It has been said that even a blind squirrel gets an acorn sometimes, so that must be the case with because I still have pretty blue water with no staining, which could just be from lowering the PH and adding the metal control, and have nothing to do with the Bioguard Stain Remover it looks like.

Could the sulfamic acid be the reason why my Total Calcium, or Hardless level is between 300 and 330? Those were the drop test readings, 330 yesterday and 300 today, I was much more careful today. I only used shock treatment the once, when I first filled the pool, and used pucks for about 3 days on slow dissolve. Oddly my CYA is showing 0 on the strip test, and less than 30 on the drop test. But I was using last years pucks..... another acorn perhaps?

TA is 110, down from 120 yesterday and that should continue dropping since the PH keeps rising, I am adding the PH minus, and the return flow from the filter aerates quite a bit. I can stop that if necessary. I cannot do anything about the raindrops though, we just keep getting rain.

I did not allow anyone to swim after adding the Bioguard Stain remover, swimming is going to be out until I get the chlorine levels in hand so that I am sure the water is sanitary anyway, and besides, it's pretty cold water still. I am hoping that the cooler water will slow any algae formation since I still do not have the algecide in. The lack of absorbic acid explains why I do not have a chlorine demand. I left it at 2ppm total chlorine last night and a PH of 7.0 off with the circulation filter off because we were expecting raindrops, and I did not want the PH to jump causing more Iron fallout, I have a 7.2 PH this AM with the total chlorine still at 2ppm. The strip test is still showing no free chlorine though, I have a test on order for free and combined chlorine, a Taylor test.

Thank you so much for sharing your wealth of information:)

[waterbear]

It has been said that even a blind squirrel gets an acorn sometimes, so that must be the case with because I still have pretty blue water with no staining, which could just be from lowering the PH and adding the metal control, and have nothing to do with the Bioguard Stain Remover it looks like.

The stain remover is probably what did the trick. I do not know what it contains but there are several organic acids that will reduce metal stains. Sulfamic acid is one of them. Oxalic acid is used in some stain treatments. I prefer the ascorbic acid since it is relatively non toxic and it works well (And if you but it from an online chemical retailer it's only abut $10/lb!)

Could the sulfamic acid be the reason why my Total Calcium, or Hardless level is between 300 and 330?

You added a metal sequesterant. Calcium is a metal. It is not uncommon for calcium hardness readings to drop slightly after using a seqesterant. In fact there are 'calcium hardness reducers' on the market that are just a sequeterant formualted to be more specific for calcium instead of iron or copper.

Those were the drop test readings, 330 yesterday and 300 today, I was much more careful today. I only used shock treatment the once, when I first filled the pool, and used pucks for about 3 days on slow dissolve. Oddly my CYA is showing 0 on the strip test, and less than 30 on the drop test.

Strips are notorioius for being inaccurate. I have yet to see a test strip that gave accurate reading for CYA. I have at the present time 2 different LaMotte test strips, Pooltime test strips, AquaChek test strips, and Taylor test strips and they all give different results for my CYA. My CYA is currently at 70 ppm by both the Taylor test and the LaMotte colorimeter we use at work and the different strips show my CYA ranging between 0 to over 100 ppm! The Taylor is the closest, showing my CYA to be about 100 ppm.

But I was using last years pucks..... another acorn perhaps?

Pucks should stay in good condition if you had them tightly sealed. If you closed your pool for the winter it is possible the CYA did disappear. It has been reported several times and I suspect it is due to bacterial denitrification.

TA is 110, down from 120 yesterday and that should continue dropping since the PH keeps rising, I am adding the PH minus, and the return flow from the filter aerates quite a bit. I can stop that if necessary.

Dropping the pH is what lowers the TA, aerating just increases the pH back up without raising the TA with it. If you want to get the TA down drop the pH to 7.0, test the TA and start aerating. Monitor the pH and as it climbs drop it back down to 7.0 and test the TA. When the TA is where you want it stop adding acid and continue to aerate until the pH is at 7.6

I did not allow anyone to swim after adding the Bioguard Stain remover, swimming is going to be out until I get the chlorine levels in hand so that I am sure the water is sanitary anyway, and besides, it's pretty cold water still. I am hoping that the cooler water will slow any algae formation since I still do not have the algecide in. The lack of absorbic acid explains why I do not have a chlorine demand. I left it at 2ppm total chlorine last night and a PH of 7.0 off with the circulation filter off because we were expecting raindrops, and I did not want the PH to jump causing more Iron fallout, I have a 7.2 PH this AM with the total chlorine still at 2ppm. The strip test is still showing no free chlorine though, I have a test on order for free and combined chlorine, a Taylor test.

If you have no FC then you do have a chlorine demand, either from the algae or from the stain remover, or a combination.

Thank you so much for sharing your wealth of information:)

[CrazyPoolMom]

I am waiting until I get a real test kit before asking more questions about specific levels. I am only keeping my PH under 7.4 and the TC at 1ppm for now. I still have crystal clear blue water, hopefully the kit will come soon. But I do have some general questions about dealing with Iron water.

Am I correct in thinking that with this water, I can shock in the future to get rid of CC, but only using household bleach, not the bags of shock treatment? And only with the bleach if the PH is 7.0? Otherwise, even with metal control I could get iron falling out into the bottom of the pool staining everything again?

And with the metal sequesterent, HEDP based, does that deplete? I have not added more water myself, as rainfall is doing that for me, should my level of that be ok? When do you add more of that? What happens if you get too much of it? Does it effect the TH Level? Is there anyway to test the amount that you have working?

Also, as far as CYA goes, is that something that needs to be avoided with Iron water?

Again, Thank You for your time:)

[Dobie]

After taking the cover off my pool last week to find beautiful sparkling clear water. I took my sample to the pool store and they told me to put 50lbs sodium bicarb, a balance pak, and 3 bags of shock in my pool over a period of about 6 hours and that everything would be perfect. By the next day, we had a huge mess. Our fiberglass steps (once white) are now yellowish brown, along with the skimmers and everything else that should be white. Took another sample and she said no copper or iron was in the water. Possibly manganese???? We tried Revive, with no help. I am a new pool owner and am about to go insane trying to get this corrected. Now there is a brown film across the bottom of the pool liner, which will come up with vacuuming, but I want my steps back white. Any advice????

I seem to have the same problem. Can you tell me if the instructions given fixed the problem for you and do you have a vinyl liner?

[ristin]

I have just taken over a long neglected fiberglass pool with brown deposits on the flat surfaces. They don't rub off when I scrub it.

It was ignored for a few weeks beforehand. There was no chlorine and pH 8 when I took over, and presumeably for a while before. The water was clear though.

My first thoughts were algae of some kind, then I saw this thread.

Can anyone tell me what the brown stuff could be and how I could test it? And what should I do to clean the pool?

Thanks.

[ristin]

(sorry, double-post)

[poolyeti]

Also, as far as CYA goes, is that something that needs to be avoided with Iron water?

There are many different opinions around here regarding CYA, and at the risk of starting a fire, I'll just put mine out there. I recommend to my customers to not use CYA at all. Put in one quart of chlorine per 10,000 gallons at night, so that it kills everything that was put in during the day, and then you get to swim in clean plain water during the day.

But that's just my 2 cents.

[poolyeti]

Also, as far as CYA goes, is that something that needs to be avoided with Iron water?

There are many different opinions around here regarding CYA, and at the risk of starting a fire, I'll just put mine out there. I recommend to my customers to not use CYA at all. Put in one quart of chlorine per 10,000 gallons at night, so that it kills everything that was put in during the day, and then you get to swim in clean plain water during the day.

But that's just my 2 cents.

[chem geek]

If one does not use any CYA at all, then the effective disinfecting chlorine concentration is VERY high compared to using even a small amount of CYA. Roughly speaking, when the CYA ppm is 5 times or more higher than the FC ppm, the rule of thumb is that the disinfecting/oxidizing chlorine concentration (that is, the hypochlorous acid) is reduced by a factor of the CYA concentration in ppm. So, 30 ppm CYA roughly reduces the effective chlorine concentration by a factor of 30 (this is at a pH of 7.5).

So the other way to look at it is that not using CYA means that at the same FC level you are exposing yourself to 30 times the chlorine concentration. My wife experiences this effect every year as she has to replace her swimsuits every winter season (elasticity wears out) when using an indoor pool that has no CYA and 2 ppm FC on average while in our own outdoor pool during the summer (with 3.5 ppm FC and 30 ppm CYA) her swimsuits have lasted for nearly 5 seasons only now showing minimal signs of wear. The difference, I believe, is the factor of 20 difference in effective chlorine concentration. The indoor pool is oxidizing her swimsuits, skin and hair about 20 times faster and may also be producing disinfection by-products at a faster rate as well.

Fortunately, it takes an incredibly small amount of disinfecting chlorine to kill bacteria and inactivate viruses. Though it takes more to kill or inhibit algae growth, it's still a very low level of chlorine roughly equivalent to an FC of 7.5% of the CYA level up to a phosphate level of around 3000 ppb. So using a moderate amount of CYA is a good thing not only for protecting chlorine from breakdown from sunlight, but by moderating the effective chlorine concentration so as not to over-chlorinate. Also, CYA acts as a hypochlorous acid buffer so makes the disinfecting chlorine level far less variable with respect to changes in pH. Without CYA, the chlorine level drops by a little over half (53%) going from a pH of 7.5 to 8.0, but with CYA present it drops by only about 14% over that same pH range. This is shown in the graphs in this post.

Richard

[mike4fish]

You need ascorbic acid powder (pure vitamin C powder). You can buy it under brand names in the pool supply like Natural Chemistry's Stain Free or you can search on the internet for a supplier of ascorbic acid powder (much less expensive).(You can also use oxalic acid powder, which is the ingredient in many pool stain removers but it is toxic compared to ascorbic acid). Here is the procedure:

1) drop your free chlorine to below 2 ppm (don't add any chlorine for a few days to a week to achieve this or use a chlorine neutailizer (sodium thiosulfate). Then lower the pH to about 7.4 if it is higher than that.

2) Add 1/2-1 lb of ascorbic acid per 10000 gallons of water, don't overdose or you will create a bad chlorine demand. I would start with the lower dose and if the staining doesn't all go away then I would add more after about 25 hours. Just sprinke it into the water all around the pool, concentrating on the worse areaes. Run pump for the next 24-48 hours. All the staining (or most of it at any rate) should be gone.

3) After about 1 hours add a double dose of metal sequesterant. (you want the treatment dosage, not the maintenance dosage) I personally have had good luck with Proteam's Metal Magic and Jack's Magic Pink Stuff (for iron). Continue to filter. The pool might get cloudy, don't worry, it will clear. Next add a dose of Polyquat 60 algaecide (Make sure it's polyquat and not linear quats or copper! Look for the ingredient poly [oxyethylene (dimethyliminio) ethylene (dimethyliminio) ethylene dichloride] on the label. If it doesn't say that it's not polyquat. This will help prevent an algae bloom while your chlorine is low (and it will be for a week or two!)

4) Now here is the tricky part, if you do not want the stains to reappear you have to raise your chlorine levels slowly over a period of days (and the ascorbic acid creates a huge chlorine demand so any chlorine you put in gets used up burning off the ascorbic acid.) I would use liquid chlorine and add enough each evening to raise the free chlorine 2 ppm. Pour it into the skimmer so it can cause the metals in solution to stain your filter instead of the pool again.

Check your chlorine levels each morning. At first you will find that the chlornine is not holding and is gone each day but after a few days to a week the chlorine will start to hold and will rise to normal levels (usually 3-5 ppm). Once the chlorine is holding and has reached normal levels rebalance the TA and pH if needed and you can start swimming again.

5) remember to add a maintenance dose ( usually just a few ounces) of sequesterant every two weeks to every month and keep tabs on your pH and don't let it rise above 7.6 or you will create conditons for the stains to return. If the stains start to return and you catch them fast you can often make them disappear if you drop the pH to about 7.0 and add another treatment dose of sequesterant

Should step # 3 be done an hour after I add the ascorbic acid? Or an hour after the stain is gone?

[PoolTyme]

We put in shock and the balance pak 100 (and all the other products recommended to open our pool) and then our turned pool (green) and steps turned (yellow/brown) adding additional shock only made it worse. The sides were not slimy and the steps could not be cleaned with ANYTHING! I found this link online that said to put ascorbic acid (Vitamin C powder) into the pool. We were having a pool party that night and so I went to the local vitamin store bought the powder, and amazing right before our eyes our pool turned back to crystal clear!! We will also follow up with the metal out, but the vitamin C was INSTANT. THANK YOU for saving our evening!!!

[waterbear]

The vitamin C has also depleted your chlorine so you cannot have a pool party right after putting it in! You will not be able to hold enough chlorine in the water at this time to keep the water sanitized. You need to add the metal sequstrant and then SLOWLY bring the chlorine level back up over the next two weeks. Your pool needs to be closed while you do this.

[maggie36]

HELP PLEASE. For the first time in 30 years we had iron stains on our vinyl liner. I am a new widow so the pool maintenance now belongs to my daughter and me. We haven't a clue. Read Waterbears post and they were so helpful. Thank you Waterbear and everyone else on this site.

I bought 10 lbs of ascorbic acid from www.MySpicesage.com. They were the cheapest out there. - did not mix it with water although another site I just now read said to. Bought the Polyquat 60 and the Sequesting Agent from www.ThePoolgeek.com, again good prices.

Did everything we were told and it took a long time for the first 5lbs of ascorbic acid to work. So we added another 5lbs. Maybe it was way too much but the pool is huge. The pool is 53,000 gallons--enormous I know. But 11 kids needed something huge.

Everything was great--we started raising the chlorine level with Bioguard Silk Tablets. We have now put 20 sticks in there and there is absolutely no chlorine in the pool. Ph is 7. Pool store said alkanlinity and everything else was good. Pool stores do NOT know anything about iron stains.

We have noticed white particles like sand on the bottom and we think it is either the ascorbic acid which didn't melt or baking soda which we purchase in bulk from Sams Club. We have run our filter constantly but it seems as though it might not be filtering out. The iron stains have come back in almost the same places although they can be brushed.

My daughter is out there cleaning manually right now. What is our next step - do we do it all again or what? Someone please help out there. We must have done something wrong. It did take about two weeks for all stains to completely come out--maybe we waited too long to put the sequestoring agent in there?? Pool is not green but not sparkling blue either. With those particles still in the pool that must be what is eating our chlorine. Thanks for any information you can give me Waterbear..

[waterbear]

First, you should not attempt this without YOUR OWN test kit and you need a good one. Get a Taylor K-2005. You have to monitor the ater chemistry as you bring the FC back up.. You also need to monitor the water chemistry as you bring the pH and TA back up. "Alkalinity and everything else was good" tell us nothing about your water or what might have happened!

A full set of test results NOT done with strips would be a good starting place.

[Mike b]

I hope water ear is still monitoring this forum. I followed your directions to the letter and all worked out great. Pool was extremely bad but after dropping the chlorine to 0 the absorbing acid had a dramatic effect. The only thing I did a little different because I had stains above the waterline. So on my appx 20,000 gal fiberglass pool I added 1.5 lb ascorbic directly to pool and made a paste of .5 lb and rubbed it around lip and water line of pool. After an hour I added the metal out and polyquat. I also wet down the lip of pool to wipe the glaze I put on it into the water. 24 hours the pool was 96% white again. And I'm talking the pool walls steps and seats were black/ brown. At the 24 hour mark reapplied 1 lb of ascorbic acid it took of the small remaining spots of black. I have been bringing the chlorine up slow with 12.5% liquid and have been checking my #'s with a Taylor 2500 kit. After about a week they started to hold. My ph has remained hi 8 to a stabilized 7.6' cynuric acid has went from 100 to 75, total alkalinity from 200 to175 still hi. Haven't been able to geta good calcium reading, I believe it's about 125 but while testing I don't really get a good red more like light pink and never a good blue more like light purple. I retread the water book and tried the cures to the most common mistakes but it did not work(and I am not color blind). Well it's been 14 days at about the 11 day mark I noticed I could see a faint dark water line. Also the last 5 days upon back washing the discharge has been a dark aqua marine color initially followed by clear after a while. Filter a hayward sand type has been running constantly for over 12 days. Day 10 I started to introduce slow dissolving chlorine tabs to my hayward auto chlorinator with liquid still added to my skimmer. My day 12 chems read FC 5,TC 5, ph 7.6, tot alk 175, calc hardness though I'm not comfortable with because of mentioned issue read 125, cynuric acid 75. Now I cut chlorine because of the spike and on day 14 I read FC 0, TC 0, PH7.6,calcium 110. I dosed it heavy with liquid chlorine in skimmer maybe 2qts. Anyway I now have a black ring at water line moving all the way up wall away from water. I reread post for 100 th time. Checked my ph and it had climbed to 8. I don't know if I caught it but the Taylor book called for 5 lbs of ph decreaser ( granuilized acid)in order to bring ph below 7. When I do I will add the dose you suggested of metal magic. If it works cool if not start again I guess??? Can announce point out what I did wrong in this instance?? All seemed to be working great maybe I got into the chlorine too quick. Also when all numbers were good I finally let the kids(about 5) go in so they splashed a lot above the water line.

[chem geek]

Metal sequestrant needs to be added in a maintenance amount weekly. The HEDP-based metal sequestrants last longer, but they all break down from chlorine so you need to replenish them. If you don't, then the metal is put back into the water and can re-stain if the pH rises. Adding chlorine raises the pH, though it comes back down when the chlorine is used/consumed. So if you need to add a lot of chlorine as for shocking, then make sure to lower the pH first to 7.2 first.

What test kit are you using? It doesn't sound like numbers from a Taylor K-2006. With your 75 ppm CYA I don't know how you are going to be accurately measuring and maintaining the required chlorine level without a FAS-DPD chlorine test. Your minimum FC should not be lower than 5.6 ppm given your CYA level so shoot for 6 ppm as the lowest.

[norwood451]

What if the Asorbic acid doe not remove the stain? What is the next step. I did try a bit of borax and it did make the stain slimy. Should I use borax to remove the stain?

[Charmaine]

Hi! We have this exact issue. We did the Vitamin C test and the stain disappeared. My husband is thinking about adding the stain remover and then immediately draining the pool and refilling. Our pool is an in ground, vinyl lined, relatively small pool. We've always used the garden hose and never had any problems. The staining did not appear until after adding the chemicals received from the pool store...recommended by their computer test of our water. If we do drain after the staining is gone, will we avoid the weeks of testing and other problems listed in the previous notes? Thanks in advance for your help.